Alice Cooper Declares Rock Against Bush Treason
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Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Treason against rock n' roll, that is</div> <a href='http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/Entertainment/2004/08/20/593192.html' target='_blank'>What do you think?</a>
<span style='color:green'>For the love of sweet jesus, don't say "OMG IT'S FREE SPEECH ALICE IS A NAZI" because if you do, you are an idoit and you will bring the level of discussion of this thread down to other ones I have seen on other forum boards and it's just pathetic. Remember, <b>Alice is not saying it's treason against the government, he's talking about ROCK N' ROLL!!!!</b></span>
I agree with him. I think music should try to remain impartial as possible. Rock for change is a cheap shot that degrades music. As much as I love to study politics, I really hate it when musicians start singing about particular people in places.
Here's how it degrades the music:
- The music will be dated real fast. In 10 years from now, who the hell is gonna give a crap about "Why Bush = teh bad" when it has like no relavance to them?
Look at Pink Floyd, they sang all about problems of their day, in a very good fashion. I personally think Floyd is one of the best Rock artists in history. And it's because not only does he sing so well of problems of his day, but they are still relevent today. He had put in lyrics about his prime minister at the time, the music would be total trash in today's world. Dated music = stupid.
You can make the same comparision with other artists that love to sing about problems - Emeniem for instance. While some of his music is clearly gonna be dated, some will not and may make him live on in terms of classic rap. (Lol, classic rap... hope I don't see that any time too soon <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
- Music should not be subject to an agenda
It just makes the music... so much more less enjoyable when you realize that the music wasn't created for the sake of expression, but for the sake of... brainwashing. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I just think it's in poor taste, like Ace states.
<span style='color:green'>For the love of sweet jesus, don't say "OMG IT'S FREE SPEECH ALICE IS A NAZI" because if you do, you are an idoit and you will bring the level of discussion of this thread down to other ones I have seen on other forum boards and it's just pathetic. Remember, <b>Alice is not saying it's treason against the government, he's talking about ROCK N' ROLL!!!!</b></span>
I agree with him. I think music should try to remain impartial as possible. Rock for change is a cheap shot that degrades music. As much as I love to study politics, I really hate it when musicians start singing about particular people in places.
Here's how it degrades the music:
- The music will be dated real fast. In 10 years from now, who the hell is gonna give a crap about "Why Bush = teh bad" when it has like no relavance to them?
Look at Pink Floyd, they sang all about problems of their day, in a very good fashion. I personally think Floyd is one of the best Rock artists in history. And it's because not only does he sing so well of problems of his day, but they are still relevent today. He had put in lyrics about his prime minister at the time, the music would be total trash in today's world. Dated music = stupid.
You can make the same comparision with other artists that love to sing about problems - Emeniem for instance. While some of his music is clearly gonna be dated, some will not and may make him live on in terms of classic rap. (Lol, classic rap... hope I don't see that any time too soon <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
- Music should not be subject to an agenda
It just makes the music... so much more less enjoyable when you realize that the music wasn't created for the sake of expression, but for the sake of... brainwashing. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I just think it's in poor taste, like Ace states.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The shock-rock legend, <b>a staunch Republican who attends NBA games in Phoenix with Arizona Senator John McCain</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>If you're listening to a rock star in order to get your information on who to vote for</b>, you're a bigger moron than they are<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Despite his strong insistence that rock has no place in politics, <b>Cooper is one of just a handful of high-profile musicians who've proclaimed support for Bush</b>.
The list of pop-culture Republicans includes Britney Spears, Toby Keith and Ted Nugent, the latter being one of Cooper's old buddies from his early days in Detroit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, sorry, but my irony meter is going off the charts right now.
More later.
Edit: Actually, more now, quickly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It just makes the music... so much more less enjoyable when you realize that the music wasn't created for the sake of expression, but for the sake of... brainwashing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a concert, not a creative endeavor. They're <i>playing</i> music, not <i>crafting</i> it (not that I know of).
Besides, if it wasn't for politics, where would classic punk be?
Interesting description of one of Cooper's live shows <a href='http://www.concertlivewire.com/alice1.htm' target='_blank'>here.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Appealing to the nation’s recent sense of self-pride, the fiendish super-hero emerged for his encore garbed in a shirt emblazoned with our country’s flag and kicked into "Elected," before interjecting a sing-along-with-Mitch version of "God Bless America," while a character in a George Bush mask received a vengeful roar from the crowd as he ran onstage with a "Bin Laden sucks" t-shirt.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see his point that if people wanted an informed opinion they would do better reading the thoughts of a respected political analysist in a book, then reading the ideas of a [probably] stoned musician in a magazine, but that doesnt mean that musicians cant use their fame and influence to promote idea which they see as forward thinking (if I were famous I would probably try to infect others with my particular perverted views of the world, its human nature perhaps?).
this rock against bush thing seems a little trite, but something like simply name dropping a respected (or not) thinkers name can act as a gateway to a bigger perspective.
Case in point, I would have not heard of Chomsky [you! quiet at the back] as early as I did had he not been quoted in some Radiohead CD sleeve.
I wouldnt say Musicians have an obligation either way, Alice doesnt want to get political thats fine, other bands do thats also fine, in fact some of the best lyrics come from such roots.
*edit typos*
I doubt that Cooper would have made those comments if there weren't so much anti-Bush music and musicians lining up to support Kerry/denounce Bush. Music has been an instrument of change for the past 40 years and to act like it just started seems to be a bit selective. Bob Dylan is considered to be a pillar of modern music and virtually all of his stuff is advocating political or social change. The Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen" can hardly be called treasonous to rock when it's quintessential punk.
If we were to say that people can't use their fame and connections to influence political ideals, Bush wouldn't be president. The musicians are just expressing themselves and you're seeing the expression come from an agenda when it's the agenda that forms from the large-scale expression.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The shock-rock legend, <b>a staunch Republican who attends NBA games in Phoenix with Arizona Senator John McCain</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>If you're listening to a rock star in order to get your information on who to vote for</b>, you're a bigger moron than they are<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Despite his strong insistence that rock has no place in politics, <b>Cooper is one of just a handful of high-profile musicians who've proclaimed support for Bush</b>.
The list of pop-culture Republicans includes Britney Spears, Toby Keith and Ted Nugent, the latter being one of Cooper's old buddies from his early days in Detroit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, sorry, but my irony meter is going off the charts right now.
More later.
Edit: Actually, more now, quickly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It just makes the music... so much more less enjoyable when you realize that the music wasn't created for the sake of expression, but for the sake of... brainwashing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a concert, not a creative endeavor. They're <i>playing</i> music, not <i>crafting</i> it (not that I know of).
Besides, if it wasn't for politics, where would classic punk be?
Interesting description of one of Cooper's live shows <a href='http://www.concertlivewire.com/alice1.htm' target='_blank'>here.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Appealing to the nation’s recent sense of self-pride, the fiendish super-hero emerged for his encore garbed in a shirt emblazoned with our country’s flag and kicked into "Elected," before interjecting a sing-along-with-Mitch version of "God Bless America," while a character in a George Bush mask received a vengeful roar from the crowd as he ran onstage with a "Bin Laden sucks" t-shirt.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The concert you refer to was done after september 11th, in 2001. Sounds to me more like hate for osama rather than praise for George BVush. THere is a difference between something political versus distaste against a man supposedly responsible for the largest terrorist attack in history... ....
Not to mention THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALICE COOPER's POLITICAL STANCE, it's about whether or not you agree with his stance on music -
Should music be non-politicized? Why?
That is the focus of the argument, but I see you've already started to degrade the dicussion already.
Just because he's a republican doesn't mean democrats cannot share the same view about good taste in music.
God, second post in and it already misses the point....
Music is about expressing your thoughts/beliefes.
Thats all they are doing.
And I doubt that they are making music, they are probably just putting on a concert (of their already established stuff).
Musicians, artists, Sports players, Actors etc etc have ALWAYS been on the fore front of anything going on in the world.
Not to mention THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALICE COOPER's POLITICAL STANCE, it's about whether or not you agree with his stance on music -
Should music be non-politicized? Why?
That is the focus of the argument, but I see you've already started to degrade the dicussion already.
Just because he's a republican doesn't mean democrats cannot share the same view about good taste in music.
God, second post in and it already misses the point.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Want to talk about missing the point?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at Pink Floyd, they sang all about problems of their day, in a very good fashion. I personally think Floyd is one of the best Rock artists in history. And it's because not only does <b>he</b> sing so well of problems of <b>his</b> day, but they are still relevent today. <b>He</b> had put in lyrics about <b>his</b> prime minister at the time, the music would be total trash in today's world. Dated music = stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Empahsis mine.
Listen to 'The Final Cut' some time. Though, since you think Pink Floyd is <i>a guy</i>, I doubt you've made it that far into their catalog. Pink Floyd could be <i>extremely</i> political at times.
Let's look at the lyrics of this apolitcal 'guy':
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Take all your overgrown infants away somewhere
And build them a home, a little place of their own.
The Fletcher Memorial
Home for Incurable Tyrants and Kings.
And they can appear to themselves every day
On closed circuit T.V.
To make sure they're still real.
It's the only connection they feel.
"Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, Reagan and Haig,
Mr. Begin and friend, <b>Mrs. Thatcher</b>, and Paisly,
"Hello <b>Maggie</b>!"
Mr. Brezhnev and party.
"Who's the bald chap?"
The ghost of McCarthy,
The memories of Nixon.
"Good-bye!"
And now, adding color, a group of anonymous latin-
American Meat packing glitterati.
Did they expect us to treat them with any respect?
They can polish their medals and sharpen their
Smiles, and amuse themselves playing games for awhile.
Boom boom, bang bang, lie down you're dead.
Safe in the permanent gaze of a cold glass eye
With their favorite toys
They'll be good girls and boys
In the Fletcher Memorial Home for colonial
Wasters of life and limb.
Is everyone in?
Are you having a nice time?
Now the final solution can be applied. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good thing Mr. Floyd kept his politics out of his music! Otherwise, as you said, he'd be totally irrelevant!
Great music can be, and usually <i>is</i> about politics. Listen to Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Marley, the Sex Pistols, Midnight Oil, Gang of Four, John Lennon, Crosby Stills & Nash, Neil Young, etc. For crying out loud, I thought of that list off the top of my head in roughly ten seconds.
And I pointed out those contradictions in his statements simply to point out how ridiculous it was. I think he's making a nonsense, inconsistent argument <i>based</i> on <b>his</b> politics. It's the Laura Ingraham 'Shut up and Sing, but only if they're liberal' garbage.
Music is about personal expression, and what brings the fire out of people more than their politcal views?
And as I noted before, the concert he's whining about isn't filled with songs written <i>about</i> George W. Bush. The songs themselves aren't specifically political, it's the encapsulating message of the event. So according to his criteria, the music really isn't being sullied.
And calling Pink Floyd a "he" is typical as well as irellevent
At least you know what you are getting into when you go to a rock against bush or for kerry concert.
<i>Obviously, this is in response to the National Guardsmen shooting protesting students at Kent State University</i>
Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.
Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are gunning us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Buffalo Springfield - Stop, Hey What's That Sound</b>
<i>This is more a generic 'Protest' song, a 'Fight the Power' song</i>
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun over there
A-tellin' me I've got to beware.
I think it's time we stop.
Children, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's goin' down.
There's battle lines bein' drawn.
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.
Young people speakin' their minds
A-gettin' so much resistance from behind.
I think it's time we stop.
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's goin' down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Midnight Oil - Beds are Burning</b>
<i>This song was a response, a protest to the treatment of the Aboriginals at the hands of the Australian government</i>
Out where the river broke
The bloodwood and the desert oak
Holden wrecks and boiling diesels
Steam in forty five degrees
The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
The time has come to say fairs fair
to pay the rent, now to pay our share<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Country Joe And The Fish - Vietnam Song</b>
<i>Pretty obvious, it's mocking the Vietnam war. "Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box!</i>
And its 1,2,3 what are we fightin for?
dont ask me i dont give a dam, the next stop is Vietnam,
and its 5,6,7 open up the pearly gates. Well there aint no time to wonder why...WHOPEE we're all gunna die.
now common wall street dont be slow, why man this's war go go go,
theres plenty good money to be made, supplyin the army with the tools of the trade,
just dont be afraid if ya drop the bomb, you drop it onta Vietcong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>John Lennon - Happy Christmas (War Is Over)</b>
<i>This should be pretty obvious</i>
So this is Christmas
So this is Christmas, and what have you done.
An other year over, and a new one just begun.
And so this is christmas, I hope you have fun.
The near and the dear one's, the old and the young.
A very merry Christmas, and a happy new year
Let's hope it's a good one, without any fear.
And so the this is Christmas (war is over)
for week and for strong (if you want too)
For rich and the poor one's (war is over)
the road is so long (now)
And so Happy Christmas, (war is over)
for black and for white (if you want too)
For yellow and red ones, (war is over)
let's stop all the fight. (now)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>John Lennon - Imagine</b>
<i>One of my favorite songs of all time, it's protesting religion, and the wars and problems it causes.</i>
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You...you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Billy Joel - We Didn't Start The Fire</b>
<i>This song is a salute (or not) to top political figures or events that shaped the world. 'We Didn't Start The Fire', as the title, expresses that the world has been in turmoil for decades, and it's no one's fault now.</i>
('49) Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnny Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe Dimaggio
('50) Joe Mccarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, Television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe
('51) Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, The King and I and The Catcher in the Rye
('52) Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana Goodbye
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it
('53) Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc
('54) Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron
Dien Bien Phu Falls, Rock Around the Clock
('55) Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland
('56) Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Krushchev
Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Edwin Starr - War (What is it good for)</b>
<i>Another song protesting war and bloodshed, ironically, all these 'anti-war' songs were written during the Vietnam war.</i>
War-huh-yeah
what is it good for?
absolutely nothing
Say it again
War-I despise
'Cos it means destruction
Of innocent lives
War means tears
To thousands of mothers how
When their sons go off to fight
And lose their lives
I said
War-huh
It ain't nothing but a heartbreak
War
Friend only to the undertaker
It's an enemy of all mankind
the thought of war blows my mind
war has caused unrest within the younger generation
induction then destruction, who wants to die?
It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Aretha Franklin - Respect</b>
<i>A pro-women's-rights, actually more pro-black-women's-rights song</i>
Ooo, your kisses (ooo)
Sweeter than honey (ooo)
And guess what? (ooo)
So is my money (ooo)
All I want you to do (ooo) for me
Is give it to me when you get home (re, re, re ,re)
Yeah baby (re, re, re ,re)
Whip it to me (respect, just a little bit)
When you get home, now (just a little bit)
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Take care TCP
Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
A little respect (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
Whoa, babe (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)
I get tired (just a little bit)
Keep on tryin' (just a little bit)
You're runnin' out of fool (just a little bit)
And I ain't lyin' (just a little bit)
(re, re, re, re) When you come home
(re, re, re ,re) 'spect
Or you might walk in (respect, just a little bit)
And find out I'm gone (just a little bit)
I got to have (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>John Lennon - Give Peace A Chance</b>
<i>Another Lennon song, again, about peace over war.</i>
Two, one two three four
Ev'rybody's talking about
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
C'mon
Ev'rybody's talking about Ministers,
Sinisters, Banisters and canisters
Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Pop eyes,
And bye bye, bye byes.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
Let me tell you now
Ev'rybody's talking about
Revolution, evolution, mastication,
flagellation, regulation, integrations,
meditations, United Nations,
Congratulations.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alice Cooper is a hypocritical dumbshit.
Strange. Anti-Bush songs during the Iraq 'Occupation', and anti-Vietnam songs during the 'Vietnam Conflict'. And Alice Cooper is calling everyone who writes anti-political songs a dissenting unpatriotic commie? Good on you Cooper, you have no idea what you're talking about.
And calling Pink Floyd a "he" is typical as well as irellevent <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it's <i>not</i> typical, and yes, while it <i>is</i> irrelevant, it's also funny as Hell.
In fact, they mocked that phenomena in one of their songs (Have a Cigar):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way,
Which one’s 'Pink'? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And popular to whom? Sure, there are more popular songs, but that's because more often than not, those that stand the test of time are crafted as radio enticements. There are an enormous number of Pink Floyd songs that you can't play on the radio (Echoes comes to mind, immediately) and thus don't reach as wide an audience, but is that really any commentary on the song itself?
Are we talking about good music as a whole, or radio friendly music?
And the quality of a musician/musical group is usually based upon their <i>body</i> of work, not on the merit of individual songs.
(Sidebar: In fact, one of the most fun things to do is to find a bar that has a jukebox where someone familiar only with Pink Floyd's popularity has elected to put their earlier work in the set. God forbid 'Dogs' and 'Echoes' are both available-- you can own that sucker for 45 minutes off of one quarter)
Thank god for small labels, so artists with a more skewered world view can still get their voices heard. Good examples are Control, Sektion B, and SKM-ETR who all run their own small labels, which are in no way affiliated with the greater whole of music industry (not that a Control release would ever grace the shelves of a major record store anyway).
Music can be political, and musicians have the right to front their world views. It becomes hypocritical and stupid when dumb acts like Rage Against the Machine act all hip and radical while churning out dollars for one of the most repulsive major industries in the world. Yeah, Che Guevara is so cool, dudes, and lyrics like "people of the sun, now they've got a gun" are very clever takes on the problems of the indigenous people of South America. Was it Sony or Universal that profited from that line?(insert rolleyes smiley here)
And about brainwashing:
If someone is so easy to influence that a few catchy lines can change their view of the world, then the problem is theirs and theirs alone. Should they stop reading books too, since the evil authors can imprint the text with their own agendas? Mr. Cooper is on thin ice here.
Wasn't it Charles Manson that claimed a Beatles song had subliminal messages in it telling him to kill people? (Still waiting for one of you anti-politics people to refute the songs I posted <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm up to 10 now... I guess Cooper thinks all of Rock and Roll a communist farce)
I had a good belly laugh at the "Give peace a chance" song, as though peace is one of those things that happen if you just leave things alone. The sheer, blinding naivety and ignorance behind it was breathtaking.
And then I saw Midnight oils garbage in there and things took a slightly more serious note. Sure, we took their land. Sure, we did some nasty things to them. But there is no way we are ever going to give them their land back. Flat out no - you're an American right? What if the Indian's claimed the entire continent - are you going to up ship and head back to Europe? Yeah right. Its also ironic that Petter Garret, the lead singer of Midnight Oil, has since sold out the Australian Labour party, and those rants about removing American Army depots, giving back the Aboriginals their lands and all those high and mighty ideals have been swiftly traded for a bit of political power and Labor policies.
And then we move on to more of Lennon's weedsoaked tripe. This one specifically infuriated me, as it trades heavily on the commonly accepted myth that religion is the cause of wars.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You...you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what happens when people live for today. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die pretty much sums it up. The most miserable, no hoping people I know just live from day to day. Nothing to kill or die for? WTH - people will kill and die for the same thing they've killed and died for for our ENTIRE HISTORY. Greed - both for material possessions and for power. This is not the baggage of religion, this is the baggage of HUMANITY. Still, its hard to forget all the millions of people who died in the atheistic USSR, or those who were pacified by the atheistic Pol Pot and his socialist revolution. But while we're talking wars of religion, lets talk about the 100 years war - the Christian English vs Christian French? Or the Boer war, where religion again wasnt an issue. Or the Falklands? Or Both WORLD WARS? And I'm just getting warmed up. What about the Crimean war? What about the American Civil war? What about the Korean war? Vietnam? Every last one of the had ultimately NOTHING to do with religion.
But wait, who needs to know what they're talking about when you're writing songs for people with roughly the same intellectual capacity as you? Obviously not John Lennon.
War - what is it good for? I dont know - ask the French. Ask the Jews. Thanks to war, you still have the ability to ask our Hebrew friends.
Except for those who initially had it waged <i>upon</i> them. They probably wouldn't think that it was so hot.
Except for those who initially had it waged <i>upon</i> them. They probably wouldn't think that it was so hot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. I never said all war was good, or it was justified just because it was war. Its just stupid to talk about war as if its automatically evil, and everyone participating in said action is evil also. Some fight wars to propagate evil, and the only answer to that is to wage war back.
Its stupider still to try and blame war on religion, but the same lot who brand all war and those who fight them evil seem to swallow that whole as well.
Marine, you just don't get it do yah?
"Give Peace A Chance" is not about just sitting back and that will bring about world peace.
The concept is to work for peace. Spend your energy on that, why strive over all these things that bring about conflict? Why not strive for peace (Lennon never thought that peace was the natural state, it is some thing you have to work for)
Next up, <b>Midnight Oil</b>
Honestly, I know squat about Australia, however you linked it to the native Americans:
No, we are not going to give all the land back (to many people that had nothing to do with it live there now). However we do try to make recitations for the atrocities we did. I doubt they want every one expert the Aborigines off of Australia (As that is silly), however it is hard to put into a song exact explanations. The point is to move you, to remind you that these atrocities still were happening (at the time off the song I assume) , and something needed to be done.
Next up, <b>Imagine</b>
Personally, I always looked at it a different way then EEK does.
But lets start with this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This one specifically infuriated me, as it trades heavily on the commonly accepted myth that religion is the cause of wars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
crusades, Jihad, Hitler's war on the Jews, The terrorist war atm, the list goes on for a very long time.
No one ever said that it is the ONLY cause, but it is a cause of wars.
However, the way I always thought of that song:
Imagine there's no countries,
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
He isn't speaking only of religion (heck it is an after thought in that stanza), he is talking about all these things that divide us.
What happens if we do give up on all of these things that create strife?
What if we do all learn to live for the moment?
What if we do manage to live in harmony?
I doubt Lennon actually thought that this was something that could be accomplished on a grand scale. But if it effected even one person to live a better, to slow down and enjoy the moment, to stop worrying for a few. Then I think the song was a success.
As for what war is good for?
Absolutely nothing.
However, war isn't just country vs country (civil war anyone?)
The Holocaust was Hitler's war on the Jews, ***, gypsies, and his political dissidents.
War isn't good for anything, but if you get sucked into it, then there is no sense in loosing.
(Actually, I still can't make out Mr. Cooper's point . . . it's ok to be outspoken and demonstrative about politics in your personal life, but you make rock'n'roll sad when you use it as a vehicle to express those same political views?)
Music is about <i>passion</i>. As I've said, look at how fired up everyone-- myself included-- gets on these boards when we're discussing our political ideals, which are usually an extension of our broader philosophical beliefs. An artist shouldn't be allowed to tap into that energy?
And to those who think that it isn't a musician's place to talk about politics-- that they simply don't have the right or the proper experience-- then who does? If political discussion and comprehension were somehow available only to those with a Master's degree in political science or the equivalent, these boards would be a <i>mighty</i> silent place. Since when did being a successful musician automatically rob you of any potential to understand and *<i>gasp</i>* form coherent opinions about politics?
Is there some magic out there, such that when you learn to play an A chord, you're suddenly and mysteriously forbidden to read a book?
Right or wrong, when someone is writing songs about their beliefs-- political, philosophical, religious, or otherwise-- they're writing about something they care deeply about. It beats the <b>Hell</b> out of listening to some polished, manufactured pop star <i>reciting</i> some catchy tune a couple of middle aged guys cranked out with a formula and a rhyming dictionary.
(Actually, I still can't make out Mr. Cooper's point . . . it's ok to be outspoken and demonstrative about politics in your personal life, but you make rock'n'roll sad when you use it as a vehicle to express those same political views?)
Music is about <i>passion</i>. As I've said, look at how fired up everyone-- myself included-- gets on these boards when we're discussing our political ideals, which are usually an extension of our broader philosophical beliefs. An artist shouldn't be allowed to tap into that energy?
And to those who think that it isn't a musician's place to talk about politics-- that they simply don't have the right or the proper experience-- then who does? If political discussion and comprehension were somehow available only to those with a Master's degree in political science or the equivalent, these boards would be a <i>mighty</i> silent place. Since when did being a successful musician automatically rob you of any potential to understand and *<i>gasp</i>* form coherent opinions about politics?
Is there some magic out there, such that when you learn to play an A chord, you're suddenly and mysteriously forbidden to read a book?
Right or wrong, when someone is writing songs about their beliefs-- political, philosophical, religious, or otherwise-- they're writing about something they care deeply about. It beats the <b>Hell</b> out of listening to some polished, manufactured pop star <i>reciting</i> some catchy tune a couple of middle aged guys cranked out with a formula and a rhyming dictionary. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you almost wholeheartedly on the last point. Listening to U2- Pride, or hell, even Finger 11 - One Thing still sends tingles down my spine, and I've heard them thousands of times. Hearing how it's "Hot in here and time to take my clothes off" is just stupid and disgusting.
I say almost, because I don't think political views should be included in that cluster of things that you listed off. Politics are a medium, through which morals, philosophies, and religions are expressed. It is not something important in and of itself, and I suspect a world with only politics, and no religious or philisophical backing would look much akin to the differences between the Big and Little-endians. The Constitution, the Declaration if Independance, the Magna Carta, were and are brilliant, not because of what they set up, but because of the ideals that they draw from. IE: Equality and Human value. I couldn't care less about how many seats are in the electoral college, or how many votes it takes to get a senator elected, as long as each vote is counted equally. The former is silly to put to tune, and the latter is essential.
I agree with Cooper.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->/sigh
Marine, you just don't get it do yah?
"Give Peace A Chance" is not about just sitting back and that will bring about world peace.
The concept is to work for peace. Spend your energy on that, why strive over all these things that bring about conflict? Why not strive for peace (Lennon never thought that peace was the natural state, it is some thing you have to work for)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean "work for peace"? How do you work for peace? Explain this phenomena to me. Is the peace that reigns in North Korea acceptable? How do you suggest we "work" against it? You can have no war, but evil running rampant - there was no war in Soviet russia in 1960, yet it was a very, very bad place.
The UN has set itself up to work for peace, but proceeded to castrate itself by refusing to contemplate the use of *gasp* war. There are people in this world who respond to nothing but force - you cant work around people like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next up, <b>Midnight Oil</b>
Honestly, I know squat about Australia, however you linked it to the native Americans:
No, we are not going to give all the land back (to many people that had nothing to do with it live there now). However we do try to make recitations for the atrocities we did. I doubt they want every one expert the Aborigines off of Australia (As that is silly), however it is hard to put into a song exact explanations. The point is to move you, to remind you that these atrocities still were happening (at the time off the song I assume) , and something needed to be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is precisely why his song is stupid. These "so called" and much overhyped atrocities happened a long time ago 1960's - 70's, and he's calling for us to give their land back to them - but not really as you pointed out. So WTH? Why say it if you dont mean it? The Australian people have been ladeling money out to the Aboriginals for decades now, and all we've seen for our efforts is the continuing slide (though I shouldnt call it a slide, honestly there is no where to go once you've hit the bottom) into corruption, substance abuse and jaillings in the Aboriginal population.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->crusades, Jihad, Hitler's war on the Jews, The terrorist war atm, the list goes on for a very long time.
No one ever said that it is the ONLY cause, but it is a cause of wars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crusades was an economic battle with religion brought along to con people into it. The Crusader's actually lost the kingdom of Outremer (as Palestine was called) because one of their Barons couldnt keep his greedy mitts off Muslim trade caravans, which gave Saladin the chance he needed to raise up Islam and hurl the Crusader's out once and for all. Was religion involved, yes - but in this war, as in every single damn war pretty much EVER, the real, underlying reason was greed and powerlust. If this one overwhelming constant appears in every military conflict, surely its way off the mark to suggest that religion is one cause. I could argue that food causes war, cause hell, every army ever known has needed food to operate.
And its a bit stiff to call the Holocaust a religious thing. It wasnt religion vs - they didnt ask the Jews if they believed in Yahweh, they just asked who their parents were then gassed them. Thats not religious conflict, thats racism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine there's no countries,
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
He isn't speaking only of religion (heck it is an after thought in that stanza), he is talking about all these things that divide us.
<b>What happens if we do give up on all of these things that create strife?</b>
What if we do all learn to live for the moment?
What if we do manage to live in harmony?
I doubt Lennon actually thought that this was something that could be accomplished on a grand scale. But if it effected even one person to live a better, to slow down and enjoy the moment, to stop worrying for a few. Then I think the song was a success.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Human nature creates strife. It doesnt matter whether your fighting for Iraqi oil or you little brothers new toy truck, it is part of the very basic fibre of human beings. Lennon in his deluded little world thought he would play the drawcard of socialists everywhere - scapegoating. He doesnt want to admit that people are the problem, so he blames the things they fight over.
What if we all manage to live in harmony? What if I turn into a carrot tomorrow - both have the same chance of happening, both equally irrelevant to contemplate.
There are people who believe in just living for the moment. Anarchists.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for what war is good for?
Absolutely nothing.
However, war isn't just country vs country (civil war anyone?)
The Holocaust was Hitler's war on the Jews, ***, gypsies, and his political dissidents.
War isn't good for anything, but if you get sucked into it, then there is no sense in loosing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the war that freed Europe was good for nothing? I'll be sure to mention that to my Israeli friends, that the massive conflict that eventually lead to their salvation was good for nothing. Anything really important in life has to be struggled to be obtained - a lot of people in Western democracies fail to recognise that, as they have grown up with little things like freedom a part of everyday life.
Your country was born by war, and will only remain free by it. That doesnt mean every single war your country wages is a morally good war, or is being fought specifically to defend said freedom, but the second the US decides to throw away its military is the first second of end of its life.
<i>Obviously, this is in response to the National Guardsmen shooting protesting students at Kent State University</i>
Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.
Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are gunning us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Buffalo Springfield - Stop, Hey What's That Sound</b>
<i>This is more a generic 'Protest' song, a 'Fight the Power' song</i>
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun over there
A-tellin' me I've got to beware.
I think it's time we stop.
Children, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's goin' down.
There's battle lines bein' drawn.
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.
Young people speakin' their minds
A-gettin' so much resistance from behind.
I think it's time we stop.
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's goin' down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Midnight Oil - Beds are Burning</b>
<i>This song was a response, a protest to the treatment of the Aboriginals at the hands of the Australian government</i>
Out where the river broke
The bloodwood and the desert oak
Holden wrecks and boiling diesels
Steam in forty five degrees
The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share
The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning
The time has come to say fairs fair
to pay the rent, now to pay our share<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Country Joe And The Fish - Vietnam Song</b>
<i>Pretty obvious, it's mocking the Vietnam war. "Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box!</i>
And its 1,2,3 what are we fightin for?
dont ask me i dont give a dam, the next stop is Vietnam,
and its 5,6,7 open up the pearly gates. Well there aint no time to wonder why...WHOPEE we're all gunna die.
now common wall street dont be slow, why man this's war go go go,
theres plenty good money to be made, supplyin the army with the tools of the trade,
just dont be afraid if ya drop the bomb, you drop it onta Vietcong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>John Lennon - Happy Christmas (War Is Over)</b>
<i>This should be pretty obvious</i>
So this is Christmas
So this is Christmas, and what have you done.
An other year over, and a new one just begun.
And so this is christmas, I hope you have fun.
The near and the dear one's, the old and the young.
A very merry Christmas, and a happy new year
Let's hope it's a good one, without any fear.
And so the this is Christmas (war is over)
for week and for strong (if you want too)
For rich and the poor one's (war is over)
the road is so long (now)
And so Happy Christmas, (war is over)
for black and for white (if you want too)
For yellow and red ones, (war is over)
let's stop all the fight. (now)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>John Lennon - Imagine</b>
<i>One of my favorite songs of all time, it's protesting religion, and the wars and problems it causes.</i>
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You...you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Billy Joel - We Didn't Start The Fire</b>
<i>This song is a salute (or not) to top political figures or events that shaped the world. 'We Didn't Start The Fire', as the title, expresses that the world has been in turmoil for decades, and it's no one's fault now.</i>
('49) Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnny Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe Dimaggio
('50) Joe Mccarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, Television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe
('51) Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, The King and I and The Catcher in the Rye
('52) Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana Goodbye
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it
('53) Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc
('54) Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron
Dien Bien Phu Falls, Rock Around the Clock
('55) Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland
('56) Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Krushchev
Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Edwin Starr - War (What is it good for)</b>
<i>Another song protesting war and bloodshed, ironically, all these 'anti-war' songs were written during the Vietnam war.</i>
War-huh-yeah
what is it good for?
absolutely nothing
Say it again
War-I despise
'Cos it means destruction
Of innocent lives
War means tears
To thousands of mothers how
When their sons go off to fight
And lose their lives
I said
War-huh
It ain't nothing but a heartbreak
War
Friend only to the undertaker
It's an enemy of all mankind
the thought of war blows my mind
war has caused unrest within the younger generation
induction then destruction, who wants to die?
It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Aretha Franklin - Respect</b>
<i>A pro-women's-rights, actually more pro-black-women's-rights song</i>
Ooo, your kisses (ooo)
Sweeter than honey (ooo)
And guess what? (ooo)
So is my money (ooo)
All I want you to do (ooo) for me
Is give it to me when you get home (re, re, re ,re)
Yeah baby (re, re, re ,re)
Whip it to me (respect, just a little bit)
When you get home, now (just a little bit)
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Take care TCP
Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
A little respect (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
Whoa, babe (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)
I get tired (just a little bit)
Keep on tryin' (just a little bit)
You're runnin' out of fool (just a little bit)
And I ain't lyin' (just a little bit)
(re, re, re, re) When you come home
(re, re, re ,re) 'spect
Or you might walk in (respect, just a little bit)
And find out I'm gone (just a little bit)
I got to have (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>John Lennon - Give Peace A Chance</b>
<i>Another Lennon song, again, about peace over war.</i>
Two, one two three four
Ev'rybody's talking about
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
C'mon
Ev'rybody's talking about Ministers,
Sinisters, Banisters and canisters
Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Pop eyes,
And bye bye, bye byes.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
Let me tell you now
Ev'rybody's talking about
Revolution, evolution, mastication,
flagellation, regulation, integrations,
meditations, United Nations,
Congratulations.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alice Cooper is a hypocritical dumbshit.
Strange. Anti-Bush songs during the Iraq 'Occupation', and anti-Vietnam songs during the 'Vietnam Conflict'. And Alice Cooper is calling everyone who writes anti-political songs a dissenting unpatriotic commie? Good on you Cooper, you have no idea what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
EEK did you read anything I posted? I'm talking about why it's bad for songs to sign about particular people and places, because it becomes dated, and therefore, lose popularity.
Which songs did you post that are actually dated?
Crosby: Dated and not popular. Refering to names, as Alice states, goes againts good taste in music. It takes it out of its medium.
Buffalo: Never heard that song but nothing in it's lyrics would indicate it's dated.
Midnight Oil: Sorta dated as it says give it to 'them', which refers to someone who you have taken something from. What does that mean to the people of today? Absolutely nothing... and the people of tomorrow? Maybe something.
Country Joe: Backwater song that's dated to the max. No one cares about this song anymore other than as a little factoid.
John Lennon - Happy Christmas AND John Lennon - Imagine AND John Lennon - Give Peace A Chance: Not dated, nice song, universal ideals and themes, certainly of which Alice has no qualms against. Really good songs IMO too btw.
Billy Joel: Daaaated, but I'm sure Alice wouldn't call this music treason, simply because it doesn't push an agenda, it just sings about a history full of problems.
Edwin Starr: Not dated, universal theme as well as still popular today, I've heard many people play this song today in relation with the war with Iraq...
Aretha Franklin - Respect: Not dated at all, any woman can relate to this song, not to mention there are remakes today of this song, and this is such a popular song... Perfect example of a good non-politic song which convey's a theme and doesn't get dated.
Thanks for helping me prove my points nicely EEK, you gave me plenty of songs which have become dated (through the use of non-universal themes and using names) vs. songs which can relate to their time as well as future times, which exactly is what Alice likes, as opposed to the crap that the "Rock against Bush" crap isn't about. The songs which are basically ad hominem become dated real fast, lost popularity, and eventually will find themselves irrlevant. Treason, by Alice's own terms, are about abusing the medium of Rock (or, more broadly, music) to suit a shallow agenda or cause. These songs with shallow agendas show, because once they are dated they lose popularity, and with reason: No one wants to listen to old crap.
Versus the old crap which actually remains relevant to today: Classics.
So all Alice is doing is proclaiming the obvious: The "Rock against Bush" tour is trash, or at least will be, as he's seen in his extensive music career.
Versus the old crap which actually remains relevant to today: Classics.
So all Alice is doing is proclaiming the obvious: The "Rock against Bush" tour is trash, or at least will be, as he's seen in his extensive music career. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, I believe you're a little bit confused here.
'Rock against Bush' is a cd compilation launched by modern punk rock groups on the Fat Wreck Chords label. Read all about it <a href='http://www.fatwreck.com/junk/rab.html' target='_blank'>here.</a>
This features 17 unreleased songs, which may or may not be specifically about Bush-- I wouldn't know, because it's completely irrelevant to the article you posted, so I didn't pursue that lead any further.
The concert Alice Cooper <b>is</b> whining about is the <a href='http://www.moveonpac.org/vfc/' target='_blank'>'Vote For Change'</a> tour.
As it says (from the article you posted):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[Cooper] was disgusted when he learned of plans by Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, R.E.M. and other bands to hold a series of concerts aimed at unseating U.S. President George W. Bush.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And lo and behold, artists on <i>this</i> bill (as opposed to <i>that</i> compilation, which doesn't hold a single artist in common) are:
Pearl Jam
<b>Bruce Springsteen</b>
<b>R.E.M.</b>
Dave Matthews Band
Jurassic 5
Dixie Chicks
Death Cab for Cutie
James Taylor
Ben Harper
My Morning Jacket
Jackson Browne
Bonnie Raitt
John Fogerty
Keb' Mo'
Bright Eyes
<b>John Mellencamp</b>
Kenny "Babyface" Edmonds
(Emphasis mine, for the article's sake)
As far as I know, the artists are going to be playing their standard, original fare-- I haven't heard any specifically composed 'I hate George Bush' songs, though if you'd like to correct me, just post a link or mp3. Do you want me to do the math, and tell you how many songs these people can string together without one mention of George W. Bush in their lyrics? Remember, if they don't, they pass the Alice Cooper test, where you're <b>allowed</b> to be political <i>outside of the actual music you play</i>. If you play a song that isn't about Bush, and then <i>when it's over</i> say, "I like John Kerry!", you're playing by the Cooper rules!
I mean, heck, if Alice Cooper is allowed to use his celebrity--not his music-- to support Bush, why can't these people do the same for Kerry? Again, as long as it's not <i>in</i> his music, Cooper seems to have no problem using the fame said tunes have allowed him as his own little soapbox.
And much as I liked Alice Cooper growing up (he once hosted the Muppet Show, after all), the reverence you show his musical experience is a bit much . . . if you want to talk about lack of relevance, the guy has become a novelty act. Influential to musicians who grew up in his heydey, yes, but his songs are hardly timeless themselves. Two of my friends-- who love him, by the way-- went to one of his recent concerts in Cape Cod at the Melody Tent as-- and I quote-- 'a joke'.
Here's a picture of the venue, by the way:
<img src='http://www.melodytent.org/2004/sectiona.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Yes, it is <i>actually</i> a tent. My high school wrestling team had better digs.
And bear in mind, this is the same venue Huey Lewis and the News played at a year ago. I'm guessing Menudo will be there this fall. You'd think a guy who knows the secret to crafting utterly timeless music would be able to fill more seats, even in his old age. Must be a anomaly.
However, there's an anti-concert for change in the works, so fret not. I can't find any info online yet (I heard about it on the radio) but I recall Ted Nugent, Charlie Daniels, and Toby Keith being the rumored headliners. I mean, I know meaningless, dated songs like 'Ohio' are a bit passé, so get ready to bask in some timeless, soul-shattering, life-changing classics like 'Cat Scratch Fever'!
Edit: Lest you think I'm being mean, here's a <a href='http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=crap' target='_blank'>peace offering</a>. Just so you can have a bit more variety next time.
So your whole point is "I don't listen to these songs, therefore no one does"? Rock and Roll was INVENTED in the 60's by the Rolling Stones, now you're saying that Alice Cooper can 'set his own rules' for what rock and roll can be about? Sorry, a lot of these songs are old classics, and they have political agendas. You haven't actually proven ANYTHING besides "I don't like these songs". These are the songs that SHAPED rock, and you're saying it didn't? Who the **** is going to listen to Alice Cooper in 40 years? You? And that makes him right?
So you don't consider 'Respect' dated, despite the fact that it was a WOMEN'S LIB MOVEMENT? I specifically chose old songs that had a political agenda, and I can't see how you consider 'We didn't start the fire' dated, but not Respect, especially when one was written nearly two dozen years after the other...
You know, for 'dead songs', it's pretty surprising how almost everyone knows almost all of those I listed. War? Respect? We Didn't Start The Fire? Imagine? I'll go down my hall and find out how many people know those songs tomorrow, we'll see how 'dead' these songs are.
Forlorn, you're pathetic.
Songwriters have come through life, have experienced the dizzying highs and the hopeless depths, have passed through fire and suffering to bring us, from their limitless experience and in depth understanding of.....
oh wait, they havent got any of that. Most of them meet fame young, make a lot of money and live a life characterised by irresponsibility and narcissim. Not all, so feel free to point out those that didnt, but precious few I would consider an astute judge of political matters.
It just saddens me that for Joe Average, those songs, with a passion matched only by their supreme irrelevance and lack of any consistent logical backing, are going to be the height of their political enlightenment.
Personally, that's why I don't much like politics in songs - the lyrics tend to suffer. Not just "such and such war is bad", but songs like, "We Don't Need No Education", too.
So your whole point is "I don't listen to these songs, therefore no one does"? Rock and Roll was INVENTED in the 60's by the Rolling Stones, now you're saying that Alice Cooper can 'set his own rules' for what rock and roll can be about? Sorry, a lot of these songs are old classics, and they have political agendas. You haven't actually proven ANYTHING besides "I don't like these songs". These are the songs that SHAPED rock, and you're saying it didn't? Who the **** is going to listen to Alice Cooper in 40 years? You? And that makes him right?
So you don't consider 'Respect' dated, despite the fact that it was a WOMEN'S LIB MOVEMENT? I specifically chose old songs that had a political agenda, and I can't see how you consider 'We didn't start the fire' dated, but not Respect, especially when one was written nearly two dozen years after the other...
You know, for 'dead songs', it's pretty surprising how almost everyone knows almost all of those I listed. War? Respect? We Didn't Start The Fire? Imagine? I'll go down my hall and find out how many people know those songs tomorrow, we'll see how 'dead' these songs are.
Forlorn, you're pathetic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry EEK, that last line lost the battle for you. Resorting to attacking a poster because you disagree with what he has to say is completely against guidelines here.
Here is my take on these things. Yes, it is OK for a musician to have a political view. Yes it is OK for them to sing about feeling X or movement Y.
My problem with musicians giving thier political views on stage is this:
1) Usually they are speaking to young people who haven't formed their own political views yet who are easily influenced.
2) I came to a concert to hear them sing, not preach politics.
3) Musicians don't lead "normal" lives - their perspective on all life is skewed by their money/fame/agenda/drugs. We should not be taking political advice from them.
So how can a musician portray his political views? Say it off stage - make a statement to the press, go donate money, volunteer time etc. Dont do it in front of 1000's of screaming fans wanting to eat the ground you walk on. That isn't politics.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually if you RTFA, Alice Cooper says "To me, that's treason. I call it treason against rock 'n' roll because rock is the antithesis of politics. Rock should never be in bed with politics". The article earlier explianed that Cooper was made about the concerts. In other words the musicians preaching the the public.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mean, heck, if Alice Cooper is allowed to use his celebrity--not his music-- to support Bush, why can't these people do the same for Kerry? Again, as long as it's not in his music, Cooper seems to have no problem using the fame said tunes have allowed him as his own little soapbox.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When has Alice Cooper used his celebrity to promote Bush? Certianly not in this article. The author stated Coopers political leanings to discredit Cooper.
I have never heard Cooper endorse any politician, nor do I recall any of his songs being political in nature. I have never been to a concert of his, so I cannot say if he is politcal at his shows. Can someone please explaine how making these comments makes him a hypocrit? Or are you just slinging mud because his views do not agree with yours?
More political music please; the music industry needs an enema to clear the sh*t out. Another punk movement is loooong overdue.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So should songs be about expression or staying popular?
I don't think that the point of music is to get your name in the history books, but rather to express what you think and feel. If you happen to have political thoughts, there's no harm in expressing those thoughts through music. There's nobody forcing you to listen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My problem with musicians giving thier political views on stage is this:
1) Usually they are speaking to young people who haven't formed their own political views yet who are easily influenced.
2) I came to a concert to hear them sing, not preach politics.
3) Musicians don't lead "normal" lives - their perspective on all life is skewed by their money/fame/agenda/drugs. We should not be taking political advice from them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) How is this any different from other groups that try to influence political thought? Should we prohibit parents from discussing politics in front of children? Realistically, a lot of political music comes from groups who don't have younger audiences (younger than 15). How many 12 year olds do you think are going to be at an anti-flag concert?
If we applied to "too young to form their own opinion" standard to anything else, it would start to seem rediculous. I seriously doubt that you'd be willing to apply that standard to any other situation, like say, religion.
2) Then don't go to shows where groups with political lyrics are playing. They're making music that expresses their thoughts. Nobody's holding a gun to your head and making you go. If somebody is holding a gun to your head, you have bigger problems than political lyrics.
3) Who in politics leads a "normal life?" George W. Bush has had his life skewed by all four of the factors you listed and yet you readily support him and his political drives.
I think that the factor here is that they're rocking against Bush, not that the music is political in nature. There's a double standard where it's alright for Alice Cooper to express his political and social feelings, but not alright for the Dixie Chicks to.