Israel Vs Iran?
reasa
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<a href='http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5844415/' target='_blank'>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5844415/</a>
I know the main focus of this article is whether or not Israel is "spying" on us for info about Iran, but the last paragraph of this made the rest seem petty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->His remarks, along with warnings from other Israeli security officials, have raised fears in Tehran that Israel was contemplating a pre-emptive strike against Iranian facilities, much as it had done in 1981 when its air force bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad while Iraq was at war with Iran.
Last week, Iran threatened to destroy Israel’s Dimona nuclear reactor if the Jewish state were to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There’s no doubt in my mind that Israel is seriously considering destroying Iran’s nuclear facilities, and I also don't doubt that Iran can and will attack back.
God only knows what that could spark, and with US forces in the middle.
I also wonder if the UN is going to take any action towards Iran, although I don't see that happening with the heavy anti-Israel sentiment around the world.
So what do you people think?
I know the main focus of this article is whether or not Israel is "spying" on us for info about Iran, but the last paragraph of this made the rest seem petty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->His remarks, along with warnings from other Israeli security officials, have raised fears in Tehran that Israel was contemplating a pre-emptive strike against Iranian facilities, much as it had done in 1981 when its air force bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad while Iraq was at war with Iran.
Last week, Iran threatened to destroy Israel’s Dimona nuclear reactor if the Jewish state were to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There’s no doubt in my mind that Israel is seriously considering destroying Iran’s nuclear facilities, and I also don't doubt that Iran can and will attack back.
God only knows what that could spark, and with US forces in the middle.
I also wonder if the UN is going to take any action towards Iran, although I don't see that happening with the heavy anti-Israel sentiment around the world.
So what do you people think?
Comments
However Iran does not posses the aerial capability to launch nearly as effective an air strike. I was thinking they would use their missile capabilities to hit an Israeli nuclear site, which would be devastating.
While missile defense technology is getting better and Israel of all countries has a top notch defense system and a small amount of land to protect, the technology is not nearly perfect, and depending on how many missiles were launched at one site, could prove ineffective.
Although the question to ask is, would Iran risk the almost certain retaliatory nuclear strike from Israel?
I really can't see them just sitting on their hands if Israel were to destroy their programs through.
<a href='http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/missrock/landatk/w0005522.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weap.../w0005522.shtml</a>
<a href='http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/shahab-3.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/shahab-3.htm</a>
This is a thread discussing the upcoming Jew Vs Muslim match isn't it?
My money's on the Tel Aviv homeboys. Previous form has shown them to be good under pressure even away from home and on a variety of playing surfaces.
Added to which, they have solid sponsorship backing from USA Inc. and some fabulous equipment to train with. Although divisions in the camp and some rough treatment at the hands of the Plalestine Suiciders has affected their will to win, I still think that their squad have what it takes to clean up in the Middle East Elimination Championship. Bob, what's your take?
<i>(Sorry, but the title of this thread just begged for parody)</i>
Right you are Ken. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have no doubt Israel would come out the winner, but god only knows how that thing would go down, who else would get involved, how long it would last, and what new species of desert spider would arise from the nuclear contamination.
And lets not forgot the US forces sitting ominously in-between the two.
either that or shoot down some british planes by mistake.
Easy target flies just as dumb as a scud. I don't see why not <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I kid I kid
As to whether Israel would attack Iran, they might. But, I don't think they will, because it will just make their lives even worse in Palestine.
Would Israel use its nuclear weapons? What nuclear weapons, right?
Would Israel use its nuclear weapons? What nuclear weapons, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you're joking...
If not there was this thing called the 6days war.
Egypt Syria and Jordan decided they didn't like israel all that much so egypt seized the suez canal which was vital to israels survival. Israel counter attacked and annihilated Egypt's army in about 2 days and obliterated their airforce. Jordan attacked next through jeruselem and were promptly defeated as well. They also retook the golan heights from syria. They did this with 6 days on 3 different fronts totally surrounded.
There's not a single country in that region that can compete with israel period and end of story. And if by some chance they were to lose a ground war? They'd turn the middle east into a glass parking lot. I don't agree with alot of israels policies and things they've done but they are probably the best military force right now in the world next to the US
Would Israel use its nuclear weapons? What nuclear weapons, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm...No.
Israel has the best trained most well equipped ground forces in the Middle East, and what you call "fly some planes" is also the most technologically advanced and superior air force in the Middle East.
Palestine would be no more a threat during a conflict with Iran then it is now.
Besides an organized attack on a large scale by Palestine against Israel would be suicide, and give Israel the excuse it needs to wipe Palestine off the map, and no I’m not insinuating they would “nuke” them, they wouldn’t need to. You don’t think they have contingency plans for this stuff?
Iran's only hope of attacking Israel is with it's air force (slim chance of success) or with it's missiles as I mentioned above, which again have a fairly low chance of success given what I have been reading about Israel new "Arrow 2" anti-missile defense system.
Iran’s only hope of "winning" a war against Israel would be a full scale invasion, and seeing as they would have to go through Iraq or Turkey (yea right) I don't think that would work well for them.
And we all know Israel has the nukes.
Would Israel use its nuclear weapons? What nuclear weapons, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you're joking...
If not there was this thing called the 6days war.
Egypt Syria and Jordan decided they didn't like israel all that much so egypt seized the suez canal which was vital to israels survival. Israel counter attacked and annihilated Egypt's army in about 2 days and obliterated their airforce. Jordan attacked next through jeruselem and were promptly defeated as well. They also retook the golan heights from syria. They did this with 6 days on 3 different fronts totally surrounded.
There's not a single country in that region that can compete with israel period and end of story. And if by some chance they were to lose a ground war? They'd turn the middle east into a glass parking lot. I don't agree with alot of israels policies and things they've done but they are probably the best military force right now in the world next to the US <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Israel did not counter-attack. It was the aggressor in the conflict. Egyptian forces were defensively deployed, and the airforce was grounded when it was destroyed. It was this unprovoked first strike that was decisive in the 6-day war.
Had the combined Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian armies attacked first, Israel would not exist today.
Iran also has a very professional army, a large (albeit technologically inferior) arsenal at its disposal. Strategically defensive position. Israel's old buddies Egypt, Syria, Palestine and Jordan next door. And the biggest factor, a significantly larger population.
Of course, Iran probably wants nothing to do with Israel. This is just Israel's war mongering rearing its ugly head again.
Then Israel elects Sharon the ruthless military dictactor that could care less about anyone thats not Jewish. What the hell were you guys expecting?
Had the combined Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian armies attacked first, Israel would not exist today.
Iran also has a very professional army, a large (albeit technologically inferior) arsenal at its disposal. Strategically defensive position. Israel's old buddies Egypt, Syria, Palestine and Jordan next door. And the biggest factor, a significantly larger population.
Of course, Iran probably wants nothing to do with Israel. This is just Israel's war mongering rearing its ugly head again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/sixdaywar.html' target='_blank'>http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/sixdaywar.html</a>
Read that, I really think you need to, if you think Israel was the aggressor.
If you had been in charge of a country and similar threats were made against you and your neighbors were massing their troops at your borders you would be an idiot to stand idly by.
Egypt got what it had coming, the idiots took no measures to protect their air force after performing acts of aggression and clear intent to go to war towards Israel. What were they thinking "oh they won't mess with me" it was this kind of idiotic attitude and a severe underestimation of Israel that led them into that fool hardy conflict.
But calling the "pre-emptive" strike by Israel the first act of aggression in that war is a huge mistake. Of course I get the feeling you would be much happier if the Arabs had slaughtered all the Jews, because make no mistake about it, that’s what they would have done.
As far as Iran's army is concerned, sure it's fairly professional by Arab standards, but I doubt their troops are as well trained as Israel’s, and I know they don't have nearly as good equipment. Not to mention they can only serve as a defensive force seeing as Iran has no way of getting troops, or anything that travels via the ground, into Israel.
Besides Israel’s air force would be the dominant factor in this conflict if they decided not to just use nukes, which I don't think they would hesitate. Israel doesn’t have to defeat Iran per say, they just have to destroy its offensive capabilities, which for them wouldn't be very hard.
As for Iran's "allies", Iran would have to hit Israel fairly good before Egypt and Jordon decided to try anything because unless some factor changed, all of those countries attacking Israel again with the US in the area, and we might just have a shorter but more deadly for the Arabs, version of the 6 day war.
I didn't include Syria or Palestine because they are hardly threats on a large scale to modern Israel.
By the way, nice job throwing the anti-judaism card in there, as well as the demonization of the arabs. Lets neglect the thousands of years where arabs and jews lived together. Arguing with zionists is always the same.
By the way, nice job throwing the anti-judaism card in there, as well as the demonization of the arabs. Lets neglect the thousands of years where arabs and jews lived together. Arguing with zionists is always the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can I have proof of this please?
I fail to see what Israel would gain from attacking Syria?
Even so that does not explain why Egypt took the aggressive actions it did.
Demonization of the Arabs? So what do you think they would have done with the Jews if they had won the 6 days war? Asked them nicely to please leave?
Give them some land in Oman?
I support the plight of the Jewish people against the Muslims, or any other people who don't think they deserve to live or own land, that THEY not any Arab civilization has actually made prosperous and worthwhile.
Besides this is really the first time the Jews have had a country of their own, a united entity of some sort since the days of Solomon.
By the way, nice job throwing the anti-judaism card in there, as well as the demonization of the arabs. Lets neglect the thousands of years where arabs and jews lived together. Arguing with zionists is always the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, peaceful, freedom loving, Jew hating Soviets tell the Syrians what they want to hear and that excuses what they were planning?
They were gearing up for genocide - the Jews knew it, the UN knew it, the world knew it. They were so confident of victory that they didnt even both to pretend otherwise. Arguing with anti-Zionists is always the same too - the same refusal to admit what was obvious at the time, and is still obvious now.
For our listeners at home who cant be bothered to click a link, I will repost the contents of Reasa's link so we may all appreciate the sheer volume of the body of evidence that Jamil seems so desperate to ignore in his quest to paint the Israeli's as the bad guys:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Was Israel the agressor in 1967? Did Israel attack peacefull Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967 and wrestle the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the "West Bank" from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria?
THE 1967 WAR
In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel to believe that an Arab attack was imminent. On May 16, Nasser ordered a withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border, thus removing the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. On May 22, Egypt announced a blockade of all goods bound to and from Israel through the Straits of Tiran. Israel had held since 1957 that another Egyptian blockade of the Tiran Straits would justify Israeli military action to maintain free access to the port of Eilat. Syria increased border clashes with Israel along the Golan Heights and mobilized its troops.
The U.S. feared a major Arab-Israeli and superpower confrontation and asked Israel to delay military action pending a diplomatic resolution of the crisis. On May 23, U.S. President Lyndon Johnson publicly reaffirmed that the Gulf of Aqaba was an international waterway and declared that a blockade of Israeli shipping was illegal. In accordance with U.S. wishes, the Israeli cabinet voted five days later to withhold military action.
The U.S., however, gained little support in the international community for its idea of a maritime force that would compel Egypt to open the waterway and it abandoned its diplomatic efforts in this regard. On May 30, President Nasser and King Hussein signed a mutual defense pact, followed on June 4 by a defense pact between Cairo and Baghdad. Also that week, Arab states began mobilizing their troops. Against this backdrop, Nasser and other Egyptian leaders intensified their anti-Israel rhetoric and repeatedly called for a war of total destruction against Israel.
Arab mobilization compelled Israel to mobilize its troops, 80 percent of which were reserve civilians. Israel feared slow economic strangulation because long-term mobilization of such a majority of the society meant that the Israeli economy and polity would be brought to a virtual standstill. Militarily, Israeli leaders feared the consequences of absorbing an Arab first strike against its civilian population, many of whom lived only miles from Arab-controlled territory. Incendiary Arab rhetoric threatening Israel's annihilation terrified Israeli society and contributed to the pressures to go to war.
Against this background, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967 and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria. The war ended on June 10.
- Anti-Defamation League
Israel did indeed simultaneously attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967. It had little choice. For weeks leading up to that day, Israel's Arab enemies upped the temperature by amassing troops on the borders of the tiny Jewish state, while threatening murder and mayhem. Consider the following:
May 14, 1967: Egypt's President Gamal Nasser demands the withdrawal of United Nations force--established in 1957 as an international "guarantee" of safety for Israel--from the Sinai peninsula. The UN meekly obeys; the United States and Britain fail to rouse the Security Council to take action.
May 15: Three Egyptian army divisions and 600 tanks roll into the Sinai. World community does nothing.
May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."
May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."
May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")
May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."
May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."
May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."
May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.
My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."
May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."
June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.
June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.
June 10: Israel and its enemies accepted UN Security Council cease-fire demands. The war ended, leaving Israel in control of the Sinai peninsula, eastern Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Judea-Samaria and the Gaza Strip. (The Sinai was returned to Egypt between 1978 and 1982, as part of an Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty.)
"Never in human history can an aggressor have made his purpose known in advance so clearly and so widely. Certain of victory, both the Arab leaders and their peoples threw off all restraint. Between the middle of May and fifth of June, world-wide newspapers, radio and, most incisively, television brought home to millions of people the threat of politicide bandied about with relish by the leaders of these modern states. Even more blatant was the exhilaration which the Arabic peoples displayed as the prospect of executing genocide on the people of Israel ... In those three weeks of mounting tension people throughout the world watched and waited in growing anxiety--or in some cases, in hopeful expectation--for the overwhelming forces of at least Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq to bear down from three sides to crush tiny Israel and slaughter her people."
- Samuel Katz, Battleground: Fact and fantasy in Palestine
Israel's critics maintain that the 1967 War was one of Israeli aggression rather than a war of Israeli self-defense. Yet, on May 15, Israel's Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai, massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops, too, were preparing for battle along the Golan Heights, 3000 feet above the Galilee, from which they had shelled Israel's farms and villages for years. Egypt's Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force (UNEF), stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw, whereupon the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed, on May 18, 1967:
"As of today there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."
Two days later an enthusiastic echo came from Hafez Assad, then Syria's Defense Minister, who proclaimed openly: "Our forces are now entirely ready...to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explodethe Zionist presence in the Arab homeland....The time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined the chorus of genocidal threats: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map." On June 4, Iraq formally joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The Damascus regime's commitment to military final solutions for Israel has been described by Ahmed S. Khalidi and Hussein Agha as stemming from "...an apparently strong conviction that the struggle with Israel is no mere political or territorial dispute, but rather a clash of destinies affecting the fate and future of the Middle East." Moreover, Syria's approach to Israel, say Khalidi and Agha, remains "bound up with the view that force, whether active or passive, is the final arbiter of the conflict with Israel and the ultimate guarantor of any settlement in the area."
Was Israel the aggressor in 1967, as the Arabs [and anti-Zionists] continue to maintain? It hardly seems possible. The jurisprudential correctness of Israel's resort to anticipatory self-defense is well-established in longstanding customary international law. The Law of Nations is not a suicide pact. Israel could not have been expected to wait patiently for its own annihilation. Indeed, when the Government of Golda Meir decided not to exercise the lawful option of anticipatory self-defense in October 1973, when Egypt and Syria were preparing to launch yet another war of aggression against the Jewish State, her country almost paid for it with collective disappearance. And although Israel eventually prevailed against the Arab aggressors, it did so at a staggering cost in human life. The Yom Kippur War produced 2326 deaths of Israeli soldiers, nearly ten thousand injuries and hundreds of prisoners. These costs to Israel were the direct results of A'man's (Military Intelligence Branch) failure to predict the Arab attack, a failure known in Israel's intelligence community as the Mechdal, a Hebrew term meaning "omission", "nonperformance" or "neglect".
- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue University
"The war is inevitable... The war is coming, though not immediately...The efforts and the agreements which are now taking place are not building peace; they are agreements leading to war."
- Amin al-Huweidi, the former Egyptian Minister of War and head of the General Intelligence
"In recent weeks, the Middle East has passed through a crisis whose shadows darkened the entire world. The crisis has many consequences, but only one cause. Israel's right to peace, security, sovereignty...indeed its very right to exist, has been forcibly denied and aggressively attacked."
- Abba Eban, in his statement to the UN following the Six Day War
In the months leading up to the 1967 Six Day War the airwaves in the Middle East and throughout the western world were crowded with threats that Israel was going to be driven into the sea, that Israel and all its citizens were going to be wiped off the face of the earth. The threats were accompanied by actions -- Egyptian President Nasser ordered the UN peacekeeping forces to leave the Sinai Peninsula and replaced them with his own troops, the Gulf of Aqaba was blockaded to stop the majority of Israel's shipping, Syrian troops gathered on the western edge of the Golan Heights while border incidents and terrorist attacks against Israel increased. While many individuals and groups did speak up to draw attention to the real threat Israel faced, one group was conspicuously silent -- the Christian church.
- Dave Blewett, The National Christian Leadership Conference for Israel (NCLCI)
The only prerequisite to a solution of the Middle Eastern question in its entirety (including the situation of the refugees) remains the acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist. We have recently witnessed the spectacle of many nations of the world in effect denying only to Israel the prerogative of self-protection against terrorist harassment and openly avowed politicide. The war in the Middle East was the direct result of the illegal Egyptian blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba and the announced intention of Arab leaders, with accompanying military measures, to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Yet Israel is now taking steps towards permanent peace and reconciliation, while all that most Arab leaders offer is a promise of revenge. Considerably after the cease-fire was effected the Iraqui chief of state spoke for Arabs everywhere in proclaiming that "the existence of Israel is in itself an aggression." No real hope is in sight for a negotiated settlement, either with the Arabs or through the almost completely futile United Nations organization. If the Israelis do not insist upon taking necessary steps on their own to ensure their rights as an independent people, they run the risk of death. We must avoid the wholly unsupported assumption that if Israel will only behave as others ask or demand, her detractors will become rational and want to be friends. The only thing that would appear capable of propitiating Arabs, communists and Christians who find the Israelis guilty of "aggression" would be for the latter to lie down and be slaughtered.
- by A. Roy and Alice Eckardt in "AGAIN, SILENCE IN THE CHURCHES", The Christian Century, August 2, 1967
"The American Council in Jerusalem came just before the [Six Day] war to evacuate all the Americans in the area..."
- Walid, a Palestinian Arab defector, indicating that the brewing war was common knowledge.
quoted from "Answering Islam"
"As my right honourable friend said yesterday, and I am paraphrasing his words, it is hard to imagine getting closer to catastrophe than in the way we seem to have been drifting in the last day or two. I, as have other Members of the House, have had some connection with this situation for a good many years - in fact, since I first went down to the United Nations at the end of the war when the state of Palestine was established by United Nations actions."
"So long as Israel's neighbours, or some of them, refuse to recognize the right of Israel to exist as a state, then we move from one crisis to another."
"Israel, of course, also has the basic obligation which I am sure she accepts, to live without provocation and threat to her neighbours and in accord with the UN decisions which gave her birth."
"I am perhaps repeating the obvious, but the danger point, is the situation in Sharm el Sheikh. The troops of the United Arab Republic now control this port in the Gulf of Aqaba. In 1957 we spent days and nights arguing about this particular aspect of the settlement which it was hoped would have been reached at least in accord with the withdrawal of the Israeli troops from the ground they had conquered. They made it quite clear at the time that they visualized a package deal by which, in return for withdrawing from vital strategic points, and especially from Sharm el Sheikh, they would be protected against action from those areas, and particularly this point, which would prejudice and destroy their own national interest. They undoubtedly feel they have a commitment to that effect."
"We need not go into the legal situation. Perhaps it should be sent to the international Court of Justice for Judgement, but before the International Court of Justice could render a judgement many things would have to be done to avoid trouble, because the Gulf of Aqaba now is of vital importance to the existence of the State of Israel . From 90-92 percent of its oil goes past the Strait of Tiran and into the gulf to the port of Elath. That certainly is one very dangerous point."
"The second dangerous point is the Gaza Strip which has now been taken over by the Palestine Liberation Army, a part of the force of the United Arab Republic. This army is composed of men devoted-and fanatically and sincerely devoted -to what they believe to be the liberation of their homeland. They are there now in the Gaza strip with 300,000 Palestinian refugees. If there could a more explosive situation than that, I do not know what it could be."
"The third point is the Syrian border, which has been the scene of terrorist incidents and activities in recent weeks and which perhaps has been the occasion for the development of the recent crisis, which can explode at any minute."
"The fourth danger point is the possibility of excessive reaction or retaliation by land, water, or air against provocation or terrorist incidents."
- Canadian Prime Minister L.B. Pearson in the House of Commons, May 24/67
"...something should be done about the right of Israeli ships, which was exercised by all other ships until a day or so ago, to navigate the Suez Canal. There have been decisions by the Security Council of the UN affirming that right, but in practice, the affirmation has not meant very much to Israel."
- Canadian Prime Minister L.B. Pearson in the House of Commons, June 8/67
In 1967, Palestinian raiders from Syria increasingly put the lives of Jewish immigrants in danger. Encouraged by the U.S.S.R., Egypt, and its charismatic leader Gamal Nasser, was thought to have "expansionist" tendencies, and a desire to invade Israel. As 100,000 Egyptian troops massed on the Sinai, Israel took the only action available to prevent certain defeat...on June 5, 1967, they attacked. A brilliantly planned air attack destroyed almost the entire Egyptian air force as it sat on the ground. By gaining air superiority, the Israelis were then able to maneuver their tank corps with impunity, not fearing Egyptian air attacks. A series of armored cavalry and tank task forces then advanced rapidly and surrounded or cut-off Egyptian defenders. Six days later, it turned into a rout, and the Israelis gained both territory and the respect of other military forces in the region.
- by Clark Staten, Emergency Response & Research Institute, Chicago, IL
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Give them some land in Oman?
I support the plight of the Jewish people against the Muslims, or any other people who don't think they deserve to live or own land, that THEY not any Arab civilization has actually made prosperous and worthwhile.
Besides this is really the first time the Jews have had a country of their own, a united entity of some sort since the days of Solomon.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I guess they would have done similar acts of ethnic clensing as the israeli government is performing on palstine population.
As for the discussion, I don't know what israel is up to, but I certainly do not think they could afford another war ATM.
As for the question of "who is responsible":
The whole conflict is in fact the outcome of western ignorance, and the misguided belief, we could alter a forein nations course of history simply by drawing some new boarders on the map or intervene with military force.
This misguided policy has has led to uncountable similar hotspots around the world during the 19th and 20th century. Just think about Kuwait, which historically was part of Iraq, before it was announced as a sovereing emirate under british support.
As for the 6 days war:
Yes, the Israelis had to strike first in order to maintain their soverenity. The anti-israelian sentiment in the surrounding arabian nations reached a point where Isreal ought to be wiped off the face of the earth. Such statements were proclaimed openly by high ranking arabian leaders.
War was imminent. But you should not overestimate Israels military capacity. The army is actually the technically most advanced in the area and highly trained and has considerabel amount of combat experience. However, the army is small compared to their foreinghers, and dependent on forein support. The 6 day war was a surprising attack that had not been estimated. If Saddam had performed a massive preemtive strike against US bases back in desert storm <i>during the 6 month of preparations</i>, The first Gulf War could have ended disastrous.
As of the Israelian nuclear doctrine, well I really see no reason why Israel should be allowed to maintain nuclear weapons capacity while Iran is not.
Lets face it: Nuclear weapons are the only possible means for any smaller Nation to ensure their soverenity against US or UN domination.
Sad but true. Just look at North Corea or China where some not definately confirmed nukes are sufficient to stop US harrassements.
Do we really have the right to disallow them weapons we rely ourselfs on?
PS: sorry for spelling errors, its kind of late in CET and im tired so bear with me.
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I stopped reading there.
In the future you might not want to start off a post with complete ****.
God only knows what that could spark, and with US forces in the middle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
U.S. in the middle? Nah, the U.S. will be attacking Iran in a few short years in the same way as was done to Iraq, probably before Israel or Iran act on each other. Can you see it coming? There's a major push from the U.S. to "democratize" the Middle East as quickly as possible. And Iran's next.
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I stopped reading there.
In the future you might not want to start off a post with complete ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the way , ethnic cleansing doesn't require the genocide of the target population , expelling it can do the job. It's what Israël is doing at the moment in Cisjordania , by building colonies and pushing the palestinian natives further away.
Would Israel use its nuclear weapons? What nuclear weapons, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respect your opinion, but as someone who lives here, in Israel - tel aviv, i have to say that Israel is very capable of attacking in any way, any time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Had the combined Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian armies attacked first, Israel would not exist today.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they did attack first, didn't they ? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe they have the best military in the Middle-East because of the United States. I mean we give them all of their weapons
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Wrong. USA helps Israel <i>research</i> new kinds of weapons ( corner-shot, would be a nice example ).
Israel makes its own weapons, has its own research labs, and in the past invented some of the top used weapons ( desert eagle - a la matrix ).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well I really see no reason why Israel should be allowed to maintain nuclear weapons capacity while Iran is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Israel is not allowed to do so. Thats why it was kept a secret until a worker there, ( called 'Vanunu' or so) Exposed the secret to the world, and got 18 years in jail for that.
In a conventional war the IDF will have quite a military and technological advantage over most Islamic States. However, I have a feeling if war erupted it will likely be <u>Israel versus the Islamic <b>WORLD</b></u>. Any tribal issuses that may have been an obstacle to a united Islamic front will set aside.
That wall they are building had better surround the entire country and be 100 feet tall because they will have every able bodied Muslim parked on their border with everything from strap-on-explosives to pencil sharpeners trying to kill any man, women, child or pet related to the State of Israel.
I would think any country whom they suspect is supporting Israel would recieve the same kinda treatment (Think US).
Israel will be a mess, the Middle East will be a mess, the Islamic World will be a mess, and any country with a significant Islamic population will be a mess. And as far as I can tell, terrorism and extremism thrive in messes.
If it ever comes down to war, the victor will either have to wipe the State of Israel off the map or ensure no Muslim lives within 100 miles of Israelis' borders.
Whatever the outcome it'll be ugliness to the max...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I guess they would have done similar acts of ethnic clensing as the israeli government is performing on palstine population.
I stopped reading there.
In the future you might not want to start off a post with complete ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not know what your backround is and maybe you have a set opinion, but you should not deny the obvious facts.
The recent military operations in palestine are directly violating all international and UN treaties.
Same goes for the illegal annexion of palestine land after the 6 days war and building fortified outposts (a.k.a. settlements).
Also, randomly attacking civil settlements and systematically destroying civil property to drive the population into poverty and out of their homes is considered ethnic clensing.
Similar (althoug definately more brutal) acts were commited in the yugoslavian civil wars and action was taken. Not so in Israel.
Go, have a look at palestine refugees, then judge my opinion.
I do not deny Israel their right to defend themselves, but selfdefense and attacking political activists and suspected terrorists with air to ground missles in broad daylight on frequented marketplaces are two different pairs of shoes.
well I really see no reason why Israel should be allowed to maintain nuclear weapons capacity while Iran is not.
Israel is not allowed to do so. Thats why it was kept a secret until a worker there, ( called 'Vanunu' or so) Exposed the secret to the world, and got 18 years in jail for that.
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Of course. It is not officially allowed to do so, but is is tolerated by the U.S. and I suppose they knew about Israels capacities. That equals a license to build. Pun intended.
Its kind of hypocritical to play whack-a-mole with every other county in area that is sustaining nuclear facilities of any kind, don't you think?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. in the middle? Nah, the U.S. will be attacking Iran in a few short years in the same way as was done to Iraq, probably before Israel or Iran act on each other. Can you see it coming? There's a major push from the U.S. to "democratize" the Middle East as quickly as possible. And Iran's next. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sad thing is, you cannot "democratize" an area as explosive as the middle east. We have to realize that UN intervention is futile. All you can achieve is a temporary hold in hostilities, which will finally explode again as soon as you stop the military occupation. You don't appeace the area, you supress them. The worst case will be that the inhabitants cease their hostilities and concentrate on the occupation forces.
Just have a look at Europe.
Europe was divided deeply by century old grudges and warmongering which eventually lead to WW I.
Everybody wanted that war. Everybody was euphoric. The scolarship as well as the working classes. Everybody expected victory. It should settle all scores.
It turned out as one of the worst and disastrous nightmares in history. The war stagnated, population began to suffer, millions of soldiers perished.
The soldiers started to despair and even refused fighting over large parts of the frontlines.
At the end the war was undecided, because outside intervention prevented it from raging to the bitter end. A peace treaty was signed which no one was satisfied with.
Germany was frowned as the agressor which was unjustified, because the war was declared by Austrian Hungarian Monarchy and Germany joined according mutural defense aggreements (Although, as said before, Germany wanted the war, as much as everybody else)
However, the treaty heavily sanctioned Germany and crippled its economy.
The Worldwide economic collapse during the 1930s followed soon after and Germany sank into poverty and civil unrest.
The New Republic that was installed by the "victorious" nations was unable to solve the problems and radical elements grew in strength.
We know what happened. If not the Nazis would have succeded, then maybe another communistic revolution would have occured like in Russia, and the following Worldwar would have been fought by Britain/america against a union of Socialistic Germany and the Sovjet Union.
The outcome however would have been the same. War. It was inevitable.
Britain was waiting for a reason to declare war on the new economic superpower that war rising on the continent. The attack on Poland was that justification and WW II began.
The reason why there was not third War yet, is not because of the UN, but because there was another, common threat that united former enemys and made them allies. The cold war began.
We should accnowledge, that we cannot force people not to fight each other. They have to learn themselves. Subduing conflicts won't extinguish the flames of hate and war. They will burn under the surface and as soon as you open the gates again they explode.
Look at Yugoslavia. 3 different ethnic groups were forced under one Nation by a dictator. Soon after this dictators death, the nation broke apart and one of the most brutal and civil war broke loose.
We should learn from our mistakes and stop sticking our noses in other peoples affairs.
And I have to say the Arabs gave it a damn good go. About 7 nations simultaneously attacked the Israeli's (who at the time were without US financing or support) when they declared independence. They had tanks, planes, artillery - and the Jews had nought but rifles. And the Arabs were defeated then.
The Jews again <a href='http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Suez_War.html' target='_blank'>thrashed</a> an Arab army in 1956 - but that definately wasnt self defence. The Jews invaded Egypt along with France and Britian to capture the Suez canal, but stopped short.
Their destruction seemed assured in 1967 when "all Islam was poised to drive the Zionist entity back into the seas". And once more, facing vastly superior numbers, they fought and won. This war nearly tripled the size of Israel, and although they gave some of the land back, most of it was held for strategic purposes. This was to prove a very, very good thing.
Fast foward to 1973 - the Yom Kippur War.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On October 6, 1973 — Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar — Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders.1 On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.
Thrown onto the defensive during the first two days of fighting, Israel mobilized its reserves and eventually repulsed the invaders and carried the war deep into Syria and Egypt. The Arab states were swiftly resupplied by sea and air from the Soviet Union, which rejected U.S. efforts to work toward an immediate ceasefire. As a result, the United States belatedly began its own airlift to Israel. Two weeks later, Egypt was saved from a disastrous defeat by the UN Security Council, which had failed to act while the tide was in the Arabs' favor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was the land taken in the 1967 war that acted as a buffer zone, giving the Israeli's enough time to mobilise and repulse the arabs once again. Time and time again the Israeli's have faced massive attacks from Islam, and time and time again they have repulsed them. Why would we expect now - when the Israeli military is stronger then ever, and has the power of nuclear weapons in its arsenal, that somehow the united muslim forces would defeat them? The arab world failed when Israel was a fledgling state - its got no chance now and it knows it, which is why there hasnt been an overt assualt since 1973.
I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for the so called "illegal annexation". The UN suggested splitting up the land, and the Arabs decided instead they'd just massacre the Jews. The Jews gave them the military thrashing of a lifetime, and then the Arabs had the gall to demand their land back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After 1949, the Arabs insisted that Israel accept the borders in the 1947 partition resolution and repatriate the Palestinian refugees before they would negotiate an end to the war they had initiated. This was a novel approach that they would use after subsequent defeats: the doctrine of the limited-liability war. Under this theory, an aggressor may reject a compromise settlement and gamble on war to win everything in the comfortable knowledge that, even if he fails, he may insist on reinstating the status quo ante. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats rediculously unfair.
This
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quote from Ralph Galloway, a former head of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), in Amman, capital of Jordan, in August 1958:
"The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."
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sums up why my sympathy for the Palestinians is of very low stock - they are the willing tools of their neighbours, living in squalor and misery so they can be used against the Jews.