Terrorism In Russia
Spooge
Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Members
Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Putin vs Chechens?</div> Violence in Russia has increased over the last few weeks and there have been a number of actions in the recent past. Finding solid information about the causation for these actions has been difficult for me. I'm hoping some of you, preferably the Europeans, can help the rest of us understand what's going on over there.
This is the most current terror action:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Attackers seize southern Russian school</b>
September 1, 2004 - 10:50PM
Attackers wearing suicide-bomb belts have stormed a school in a Russian region bordering Chechnya and taken hundreds of hostages, including 200 children.
The assault came a day after a suicide bomber killed 10 people in Moscow.
The hostage-takers reportedly released 15 children several hours later, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.
But Ruslan Ayamov, spokesman for North Ossetia's Interior Ministry, denied that the hostage-takers had freed anyone, telling The Associated Press that 12 children and one adult managed to escape after hiding in the building's boiler room.
During the seizure, at least two people were killed, including a father who had brought his child to the school and was shot when he tried to resist the raiders, said Fatima Khabolova, a spokeswoman for the regional parliament. A raider also was killed and nine people were injured, she said.
The seizure began after a ceremony marking the first day of the Russian school year, reports said, when it was likely that many parents had accompanied their children to the school. The attackers warned they would blow up the school if police tried to storm it and forced children to stand at the windows, said Alexei Polyansky, a police spokesman for southern Russia.
Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the region's Interior Ministry, said that the hostages have threatened "for every destroyed fighter, they will kill 50 children and for every injured fighter - 20 (children)", the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.
Parents of the seized children recorded a video appeal to President Vladimir Putin to fulfill the terrorists' demands, Khabalova said. The text of the appeal was not immediately available.
Suspicion in both the school attack and the Moscow bombing fell on Chechen rebels or their sympathisers, but there was no evidence of any direct link. The two strikes came just a week after two Russian planes carrying 90 people crashed almost simultaneously in what officials also say were terrorist bombings.
"In essence, war has been declared on us, where the enemy is unseen and there is no front," Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov said.
The latest violence also appears to be timed around last Sunday's presidential elections in Chechnya, a Kremlin-backed move aimed at undermining support for the insurgents by establishing a modicum of civil order in the war-shattered republic. The previous Chechen president, Akhmad Kadyrov, was killed along with more than 20 others in a bombing on May 9.
Gunfire broke out after the school raid and at least three teachers and two police officers were wounded, Polyansky said. More gunfire and several explosions were heard about three hours later, the Interfax news agency reported.
Polyansky said most of the attackers were wearing suicide bomb belts.
The attackers demanded talks with regional officials and a well-known paediatrician, Leonid Roshal, who had aided hostages during the seizure of a Moscow theatre in 2002, news reports said. At least 129 hostages died in that incident, most from effects of a knockout gas pumped into the building, and 41 attackers were reported killed.
The hostage-takers at the school demanded the release of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighbouring Ingushetia in June, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported, citing regional officials. Those well-coordinated raids killed more than 90 people.
ITAR-Tass, citing regional emergency officials, said about 400 people including some 200 children were being held captive. A regional police official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the hostages had been herded into the school gymnasium.
There were 17 attackers, both male and female, Interfax said, citing Ismel Shaov, a regional spokesman for the Federal Security Service.
In television footage from outside the school in Beslan, a town about 16 km north of the regional capital of Vladikavkaz, men in camouflage with heavy-calibre machine guns took up positions on the perimetre and other men in civilian dress with light automatic rifles paced nervously.
At one point, a girl of about age seven in a floral print dress and a red bow in her hair streaked around a corner apparently after fleeing from the school, her hand held by a flak-jacketed soldier, followed by an older woman. Russian news reports said about 50 students managed to escape, some after hiding in the school's boiler room during the raid.
"I was standing near the gates, music was playing, when I saw three armed people running with guns, at first I though it was a joke, when they fired in the air and we fled," a teenage witness, Zarubek Tsumartov, said on Russian television.
The attack was the latest in a string of violent acts that have tormented Russians and plagued the government of President Vladimir Putin, who came to power in 2000 vowing to crush the Chechen rebels.
Terrorism fears in Russia had risen markedly following the plane crashes and the suicide bombing outside a Moscow subway station that killed 10 people and wounded more than 50.
A militant Muslim website published a statement claiming responsibility for the bombing on behalf of the Islambouli Brigades, a group that also claimed responsibility for the airliner crashes. The veracity of the statements could not immediately be confirmed.
The statement said Tuesday's bombing was a blow against Putin, "who slaughtered Muslims time and again". Putin has refused to negotiate with rebels in predominantly Muslim Chechnya who have fought Russian forces for most of the past decade, saying they must be wiped out.
Putin has interrupted his working holiday in the Black Sea resort of Sochi and returned to Moscow, after doing the same last week because of the plane crashes. Upon arrival at the Moscow airport, Putin held an immediate meeting with the heads of Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service, the Interfax news agency said.
Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov told reporters near the Rizhskaya subway stop in northern Moscow that the female bomber was walking toward the station but saw two police officers stationed there, turned around "and decided to destroy herself in a crowd of people."
The blast tore through a heavily trafficked area between the subway station and a nearby department store. Doctors worked through the night to save the lives of others who were severely wounded by the bomb that officials said was packed with bolts to maximise casualties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could someone give a detailed explaination of the history that started these attacks? What is the final goal of the Chechyans with regards to Russia (or the other way around)?
This is the most current terror action:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Attackers seize southern Russian school</b>
September 1, 2004 - 10:50PM
Attackers wearing suicide-bomb belts have stormed a school in a Russian region bordering Chechnya and taken hundreds of hostages, including 200 children.
The assault came a day after a suicide bomber killed 10 people in Moscow.
The hostage-takers reportedly released 15 children several hours later, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.
But Ruslan Ayamov, spokesman for North Ossetia's Interior Ministry, denied that the hostage-takers had freed anyone, telling The Associated Press that 12 children and one adult managed to escape after hiding in the building's boiler room.
During the seizure, at least two people were killed, including a father who had brought his child to the school and was shot when he tried to resist the raiders, said Fatima Khabolova, a spokeswoman for the regional parliament. A raider also was killed and nine people were injured, she said.
The seizure began after a ceremony marking the first day of the Russian school year, reports said, when it was likely that many parents had accompanied their children to the school. The attackers warned they would blow up the school if police tried to storm it and forced children to stand at the windows, said Alexei Polyansky, a police spokesman for southern Russia.
Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the region's Interior Ministry, said that the hostages have threatened "for every destroyed fighter, they will kill 50 children and for every injured fighter - 20 (children)", the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.
Parents of the seized children recorded a video appeal to President Vladimir Putin to fulfill the terrorists' demands, Khabalova said. The text of the appeal was not immediately available.
Suspicion in both the school attack and the Moscow bombing fell on Chechen rebels or their sympathisers, but there was no evidence of any direct link. The two strikes came just a week after two Russian planes carrying 90 people crashed almost simultaneously in what officials also say were terrorist bombings.
"In essence, war has been declared on us, where the enemy is unseen and there is no front," Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov said.
The latest violence also appears to be timed around last Sunday's presidential elections in Chechnya, a Kremlin-backed move aimed at undermining support for the insurgents by establishing a modicum of civil order in the war-shattered republic. The previous Chechen president, Akhmad Kadyrov, was killed along with more than 20 others in a bombing on May 9.
Gunfire broke out after the school raid and at least three teachers and two police officers were wounded, Polyansky said. More gunfire and several explosions were heard about three hours later, the Interfax news agency reported.
Polyansky said most of the attackers were wearing suicide bomb belts.
The attackers demanded talks with regional officials and a well-known paediatrician, Leonid Roshal, who had aided hostages during the seizure of a Moscow theatre in 2002, news reports said. At least 129 hostages died in that incident, most from effects of a knockout gas pumped into the building, and 41 attackers were reported killed.
The hostage-takers at the school demanded the release of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighbouring Ingushetia in June, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported, citing regional officials. Those well-coordinated raids killed more than 90 people.
ITAR-Tass, citing regional emergency officials, said about 400 people including some 200 children were being held captive. A regional police official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the hostages had been herded into the school gymnasium.
There were 17 attackers, both male and female, Interfax said, citing Ismel Shaov, a regional spokesman for the Federal Security Service.
In television footage from outside the school in Beslan, a town about 16 km north of the regional capital of Vladikavkaz, men in camouflage with heavy-calibre machine guns took up positions on the perimetre and other men in civilian dress with light automatic rifles paced nervously.
At one point, a girl of about age seven in a floral print dress and a red bow in her hair streaked around a corner apparently after fleeing from the school, her hand held by a flak-jacketed soldier, followed by an older woman. Russian news reports said about 50 students managed to escape, some after hiding in the school's boiler room during the raid.
"I was standing near the gates, music was playing, when I saw three armed people running with guns, at first I though it was a joke, when they fired in the air and we fled," a teenage witness, Zarubek Tsumartov, said on Russian television.
The attack was the latest in a string of violent acts that have tormented Russians and plagued the government of President Vladimir Putin, who came to power in 2000 vowing to crush the Chechen rebels.
Terrorism fears in Russia had risen markedly following the plane crashes and the suicide bombing outside a Moscow subway station that killed 10 people and wounded more than 50.
A militant Muslim website published a statement claiming responsibility for the bombing on behalf of the Islambouli Brigades, a group that also claimed responsibility for the airliner crashes. The veracity of the statements could not immediately be confirmed.
The statement said Tuesday's bombing was a blow against Putin, "who slaughtered Muslims time and again". Putin has refused to negotiate with rebels in predominantly Muslim Chechnya who have fought Russian forces for most of the past decade, saying they must be wiped out.
Putin has interrupted his working holiday in the Black Sea resort of Sochi and returned to Moscow, after doing the same last week because of the plane crashes. Upon arrival at the Moscow airport, Putin held an immediate meeting with the heads of Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service, the Interfax news agency said.
Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov told reporters near the Rizhskaya subway stop in northern Moscow that the female bomber was walking toward the station but saw two police officers stationed there, turned around "and decided to destroy herself in a crowd of people."
The blast tore through a heavily trafficked area between the subway station and a nearby department store. Doctors worked through the night to save the lives of others who were severely wounded by the bomb that officials said was packed with bolts to maximise casualties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could someone give a detailed explaination of the history that started these attacks? What is the final goal of the Chechyans with regards to Russia (or the other way around)?
Comments
If I remember right the Chechyans want a seperate state. They have been terrorizing Russia for quite some time now, they are just now making more high profile attacks now. You might remember the theater incident, that resulted in russian swat teams using questionable gas in their rescue attempt.
This current hostage situation is just F'ing sick. I hope this brings a riegn of hell down upon the Chechyan terrorists.
*edit*
For discussions sake, the terrorist group is muslim.
Aren't they all? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is the 3rd terrorist attack in rapid succession upon Russia, the first was two planes crashing, which are obvious hijacking/hijacking attempts, then a suicide bomber no more then 2 days ago, now this mess.
I suspect a crackdown will be in order, I don't think Putin can afford to let his people live in fear of these attacks...happening every other day, he's going to have to do something soon, especially if they continue.
Given the nature of how the Russians handled the last situation like this, I can?t see it ending to well, but who knows. The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I hope Russia comes down on them like a freight train.
(Coming from me that is saying something. My ancestors were subjugated, persecuted, exiled and executed by the Cossaks and then the Soviets. However, I really feel for the Russian people of today.)
I have a sneaking suspicion that you will see a brutal war in the next year or two, followed by a jump in worldwide terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists. Then, with popular support in Muslim countries rising for increased militarization, many Muslim leaders will begin to come out in more support of the extremist view of Islam.
There will be civil wars and increased oppression in these nations by extremists towards moderates and pacifists, then followed by several countries banding together, essentially stating that they will go to war if any outside nation attacks one of the nations involved in this new Islamic Pact. Many good Muslim majority nations will be drawn into a war in the Muslim community that will end with a general union of this Islamic Pact.
The world will look on in shock as the House of Saud falls and a new, powerful, and anti-West government comes into power, which then proceeds to hold the Western world at bay with oil. The west will then react violently to this outrageous development, resulting in a World War III scenario, that will have WMD's used by both sides. The Western nations will be relying on technology, the Muslim Pact relying on attrition and terror.
That's, of course, the negative view.
The problem with the chechens is that they've never really fit into the 'subordinate' position imposed by first russian, then soviet, and then again russian leadership. They were even the target of one of Stalin's infamous ethnic minority mass relocation operations. The fact is that the chechens are angry, and rightly so. Russia has fought two wars in Chechenya in the last decade, and even though they claim that the province is now pacified, it is not. There is no low-level service infrastructure in the province. The houses in the capital Groznyi are mostly in ruins because of massive artillery bombardment by the russian military. The russian authorities and the army constantly terrorize, rob, rape and incarcerate civilians because they can, and because no one is there to stop them. The chechen rebels may be brutal, and they may share views and resources with other muslim paramilitary and terror organizations, but at least they have a legitimate cause.
Russia does not let reporters roam freely in the province. It does not allow any family members to visit people incarcerated in detainment centers that the living conditions of concentration camps. People just disappear, being taken during night raids by russian military and paramilitary forces, and never seen or heard of again. As a small sample of the constant brutality of the russian army, the army officer responsible for raping an underaged girl, then killing her, and then driving a tracked APC over the body to cover the crime has not been condemned for the crime, and likely will never be.
I for one see the russians as getting what they deserve. The chechen rebels target civilians, true, but so does the russian army, so no one can claim the moral high ground.
[edit]
Just adding a viewpoint:
The US is silent about the chechen situation because in the eyes of Washington they are technically al-Quaeda members. Also, they consider Russia an ally in the 'War on Terror' and treat the situation like they treated the mass persecution of Kurds in Turkey. Turkey was a fellow NATO-state, and thus allowed to do what it wanted. Serbia tried to emulate Turkey, and all they got was bombs.
The EU is also strangely silent on the topic, apart from a few light condemnations here and there. I guess saying something would be bad for business.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+Sep 1 2004, 10:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ Sep 1 2004, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For discussions sake, the terrorist group is muslim. Aren't they all? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
= racist, catagorizing fool
How dare you made bling prejudiced assumtions that all of Islam is pro-terrorism. A few people does not represent the whole. Just as not of LA are gangsters, and not all of the southeners arround me are KKK, you are a real jerk to label all muslims as terorists.
<!--QuoteBegin-Socrates+ 469 BC - 399 BC--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Socrates @ 469 BC - 399 BC)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can appreciate wit, but that wasn't funny in the least.
~edit~
removed large font size because it tends to make people want to flame
However, I wouldn't label all of Chechenya as terrorist supporters, because they aren't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+Sep 1 2004, 10:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ Sep 1 2004, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For discussions sake, the terrorist group is muslim. Aren't they all? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> = racist, catagorizing fool</span>
How dare you made bling prejudiced assumtions that all of Islam is pro-terrorism. A few people does not represent the whole. Just as not of LA are gangsters, and not all of the southeners arround me are KKK, you are a real jerk to label all muslims as terorists.
<!--QuoteBegin-Socrates+ 469 BC - 399 BC--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Socrates @ 469 BC - 399 BC)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can appreciate wit, but that wasn't funny in the least. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didn't assume that all Muslims are terrorists, he assumed that all terrorists are Muslim.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+Sep 1 2004, 10:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ Sep 1 2004, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For discussions sake, the terrorist group is muslim. Aren't they all? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> = racist, catagorizing fool</span>
How dare you made bling prejudiced assumtions that all of Islam is pro-terrorism. A few people does not represent the whole. Just as not of LA are gangsters, and not all of the southeners arround me are KKK, you are a real jerk to label all muslims as terorists.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
= needs to learn how to read.
Don't yell at Handman, he didn't edit anything out. I said that, as if it isn't obvious enough given that it's not quoted and was typed by me.
You also interpreted what I said wrong, he said the <b>terrorist group</b> was Muslim, and I replied "aren't they all" referring to terrorist groups, not all of the Muslim peoples of the world.
It was intended as a joke in a way.
Let me put it this way: I think it's safe to say that while not all Muslims are terrorists, most terrorists are Muslims.
Now go take your pseudo-bleeding heart, overly PC argument and re-read this topic.
Edit: Damnit Stickman you beat me to the punchline.
For the record, I am a Russian myself. But the happenings in Chechnya and Russia have to be viewed without prejudice. The war itself began in the middle of the 90's when Chechnya declared to be a souvereign nation and Jeltzin sent Russian troops there. When Putin was "elected" (a joke really, but that's another topic), he proclaimed that he will solve the issue and the forces were withdrawn. Yet a few years later they were sent back because Russia cannot afford to lose such a geo-politically valuable region. I remember Putin saying that the "Chechnyans will be drown in the toilet", that was 3 years ago.
Scinet already pointed out the reasons for those terrorists, the driving force for women and men to sacrifice their life and that of others because they see no other choice and thus it is quite hard to 'fight' them. The more violence there is in Chechnya, the more terrorists are born. Just like in Iraq, Palestina or anywhere else. But Putin will fight back with force and there will be a lot of casualties in the next days that is for sure. If you remember the happeinings in the "North-East"-theater one year ago (150 people died due to gas that the Russian army used) you should know that there is no good ending to it.
It is horrific
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1830s Czar Nicholas I invades Caucasus, meets fierce resistance.
1859 Russia conquers, incorporates Caucasus.
1917 Russian Revolution, Dagestan (including Chechnya) declares its independence.
1923 Bolshevik troops occupy Dagestan, divide region, creating Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.
1944 Stalin deports thousands of Chechens to Siberia and Kazakhstan, on suspicion of collaborating with Germany.
1957 Chechen-Ingush republic reestablished. Chechens return home.
1991 Soviet Union collapses, 14 regions become independent nations. Dzhokhar Dudayev elected president of Chechnya. Dudayev declares Chechnya independent. Russian President Boris Yeltsin refuses to recognize Chechen independence, sends troops. Confronted by armed Chechens, troops withdraw.
1994 Chechnya continues to assert its independence. Paramilitary bands accused of widespread kidnapping for ransom. Russia invades Chechnya; bloody war ensues.
1995 10,000 Russian troops occupy Grozny. Dudayev killed by Russian rocket. Total Russian force numbers 45,000. Chechens takes hostages.
1996 Chechens launch major counteroffensive, 5,000 troops invade Grozny. Unwilling to use maximum force and destroy Grozny to defeat rebels, Russians agree to ceasefire. Yeltsin orders troops withdrawn from Chechnya. Russian military humiliated. 70,000 casualties on all sides.
1997 Chechnya won't accept Moscow's authority. Aslan Maskhadov elected Chechen president. Name of capital changed from the Russian Grozny, to the Chechen Djohar. Lawlessness in Chechnya continues.
1999 Terrorist bombs explode in Moscow and other Russian cities. Russian authorities blame Chechen paramilitary commanders. Chechen insurgents enter neighboring Russian territory of Dagestan to help Islamic fundamentalists seeking to create separate nation.
Russian troops recapture breakaway areas of Dagestan. Yeltsin sends nearly 100,000 Russian troops into Chechnya. Russians occupy much of Chechnya, pulverize Grozny, driving rebels into hills. 250,000 refugees.
2000 Despite Russian claims of imminent victory, war continues. Russians are unable to defeat rebels in mountainous areas. United Nations officials call for investigations of alleged human rights abuses by Russian troops and by Chechen rebels. New Russian President Vladimir Putin agrees to human rights investigation, continues war.
2001 Russian president Putin appoints Stanislav Ilyasov as Chechen prime minister.
2002 On Oct. 23, Chechen rebels seized a crowded Moscow theater and detained 763 people, including 3 Americans. Armed and wired with explosives, the rebels demanded that Russian government end the war in Chechnya. Government forces stormed the theater the next day, after releasing a gas into the theater, which killed not only all the rebels but more than 100 hostages.
2003 In March Chechens voted in a referendum that approved a new regional constitution making Chechnya a separatist republic within Russia. Agreeing to the constitution meant abandoning claims for complete independence. While Moscow has presented the referendum as a way of bringing peace to the war-ravaged region, it is unclear how much power Russia would actually grant the separatist republic. A spate of Chechen suicide bombings followed throughout the year.
In September elections, Akhmad Kadyrov, the de facto Chechen president installed three years earlier by Russia, officially becomes president. Human rights groups as well as several nations questioned the fairness of the elections.
During 2003, there were 11 bomb attacks against Russia believed to have been orchestrated by Chechen rebels.
2004 On May 9, Chechnya's Moscow-backed leader, Akhmad Kadyrov, is killed in a bombing. Six others are killed and another 60 wounded. The assassination undermines Russian claims that Chechnya has been growing more secure. A warlord, Shamil Basayev, claimed responsibility for the bombing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was curious what eggmac meant by "geo-politically valuable region" and it seems that this area is both rich in oil and natural gas including it's usage as a major pipleline to the Caspian Sea. Apparently it also has a rich agricultural area.
I can understand Russia's interest in keeping this area for themselves but when they get the chance to agree on a constitution which includes Chechnya with Russia and gives them some independence, Machiavellian shenanigans on the part of Russia inspire further terror attacks.
It's easy to make these quick judements from here after skimming brief summaries, and I'm sure there's much more to this but I'm finding it hard to believe that Russia's insistance on clinging to this region isn't the equivilant of shooting themselves in the foot with an RPG.
EDIT: just noticed I made a rather strange grammatical error and completely twisted my summary into an opposing viewpoint. Corrected.
I was cautioning against such speech. Can we agree on that? I think we can.
And as I said, I can appreciate a joke/wit/whatever but I dodn't find it funny or true.
That's all. Quit trying to re-interpret and add your "spin" onto a warning please.
~edit~
Apologies to thread starter for getting everyone off topic. It was not my intention.
I was cautioning against such speech. Can we agree on that? I think we can.
And as I said, I can appreciate a joke/wit/whatever but I dodn't find it funny or true.
That's all. Quit trying to re-interpret and add your "spin" onto a warning please.
~edit~
Apologies to thread starter for getting everyone off topic. It was not my intention. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1st: Don't apply your definition of a racist to me and then reprimand me assuming that yours is the universal definition. Again it was a joke and you over reacted because you wanted to be the first to point out the "racism" that never was never intended or even there to begin with. Trust me if I start making <i>racist</i> comments you'll know it.
2nd: What spin? Are you saying that the majority of terrorist groups aren't made up of Muslims?
Racial profiling is not racism, its common sense.
At the moment, the majority of so-called terrorist groups featured in the media are muslim, although two of the most infamous and world-renowned terror groups are european. I am of course referring to the ETA (spanish Basque territory) and the IRA (Ireland). The Red Army Faction (RAF) of '70s Germany was not muslim. Nor were the Contras, who were less guerillas and more terrorists, and the current colombian right-wing death squads don't fit the bill either. Note that I'm not including colombian FARC nor the chechen resistance movement, since both of them are actually waging an open war even though their methods also include terror tactics.
We also have the CPP/NPA, which is a communist terror group in the Philippines. There's also the 17 November Group, a loosely-connected and relatively faceless organization in Greece. Then we have the notorious LTTE, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam, which has fought the Sri-Lankan government as long as I can recall. And let's not forget the cult/terror unit Aum Shinrikyo from Japan either. They sure got their 15 minutes of fame with the 1995 sarin attack in the Tokyo underground. It's funny though, that the US also lists PKK, the Kurd Workers' Party as a terrorist faction, even though it was created as an armed resistance unit to fight the turkish army which burned Kurd villages and murdered civilians. Well, Turkey is a NATO member so I guess atrocities performed by the turkish army are a-okay.
At the moment we are simply led to believe that terrorism is a fundamentalist muslim tool, while trying to conveniently forget that we've had and currently have similar organizations consisting of 'civilized' caucasians on our very doorsteps. Technically, the militia groups of which Timothy McVeigh was a part of are not listed as terror groups, but the only thing differentiating them from actual terrorists is that they rarely do go through with their kooky ideas. They have the plans, the hardware and the lunacy required, but not the guts, people like McVeigh being the exception. There is of course the Aryan Republican Army...
This also has a lot to do with the classic "freedom fighter/rebel/terrorist" definition problem. Contras were called freedom fighters in the eighties, even though their acts make all the decapitations and bombings in current-day Iraq pale in comparison. Washington also funds the colombian government which funnels money supposedly earmarked for "war against drugs" to right-wing paramilitary squads which attack villages that might harbour supporters of the left wing guerilla organization FARC. These attacks are pure terrorism. It's just that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
To balance the list, let's take a look at some islamic terror groups:
Egyptian Islamic Jihad is world-famous for its longevity and brutality. Hamas, which also provides social services for palestineans, has also survived remarkably well even after losing its two most important leaders this year. Then there's the Ansar-al-Islam, an ex-kurdish guerilla faction supposedly dominated by saudi fanatics and the feared but rarely seen Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Hezbollah and Abu Sayyaf don't really count since the former has become a major political force and partaker in the daily affairs of Lebanon, and the latter is just a bunch of criminals trying to make money by kidnapping tourists. Jemaah Islamiya is a scary one with lots of resources and supporters around Southeast Asia. Other known active organizations are Lashkar-e-Jhangvi who killed the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, and the Armed Islamic Group in Algeria. There's also the palestinean Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade and the organization behind the 11th march Madrid bombing. I probably forget a bunch but hey, I also forgot the names of the dozen or so IRA splinter groups and an equal number of protestant counterparts in the same area. Not included are also the islamic and hindi groups operating in the Kashmir region, since they probably number in the hundreds.
Terrorism is decades old and universal. Everybody's doing it regardless of race or belief. We even have what's called terrorism by government, which is exactly what Israel and Russia are doing now, and the Philippines and Turkey have been doing before. Not that everyone else is clean...
This post might be confusing, but hey, it's 2:15am here and I'm listing terror groups. Gimme a break.
No cause is legitimate enough to justify taking 400 children hostage.
Agentx5,
Now that we clarified that you cannot quote correctly, and Im not a racists. Why don't you edit your post so I don't look like a racist.
No cause is legitimate enough to justify taking 400 children hostage.
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400 people, of which about 130 are children, to be exact. Not 400 children.
While using children as a weapon is not exactly justifiable, one must remember that the russians, through the acts of their army in Chechenya, have really been asking for this. How many chechen children died of violence, starvation, cold or curable diseases last year? The year before that? And that? And so on... How many chechen civilians who do not support the resistance died, disappeared or were detained? I could feel even a twinge of sympathy if it wouldn't be so obvious that the blame for the whole mess lies in the Kremlin.
<a href='http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02...hool/index.html</a>
Sketchy at this time, of course, but hopefully this won't have an ugly end... (i.e. I'm all for routing the attackers themselves, but unfortunately I don't think any such act will happen without a lot of civilian deaths).
Sketchy indeed. Both the BBC and the largest finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat are reporting that the approximate number of hostages in total is around 350.
Sketchy indeed. Both the BBC and the largest finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat are reporting that the approximate number of hostages in total is around 350. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this is just a quote from russian government officials. If you could actually read russian you would see the tranparents by people there which said "Putin there are at least 800 people in the school". Of course Putin is trying to cover up the high number, but counting the children alone there are over 400.
And there won't be a good end to it
I wouldn't bet 10€ against that prediction.
I mean like seriously, are the hostages like dying if they haven't been given water. I forget what the army stats for human body's water max time without was depending of various conditions.
Even if they are sitting and in cool air, I mean these are CHILDREN we are talkign about here. My little sister can't hold still for 5 min, let alone a few days.
I'm serious give me <a href='http://koti.mbnet.fi/thantos/NS%20musaa/Natural_Selection_-_A_million_res_nodes.mp3' target='_blank'>this</a> and some PG, JPS, GLs, HAs, etc. And I'll go execute all of those sick, twisted bastards, NS style.
Or better yet why not get some skulks with silence, cloaking, and SoF/focus and let them go much them away. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> Save the children skulkie!
Edit: I've been reading about this on SA forums. Apparently, in a different hostage situation, some military officer went around and got all the terrorists families and threatened to kill them if the hostiges were not released - that and the whole gas thing, i'm sure they will try <i>something</i>.
Edit: I've been reading about this on SA forums. Apparently, in a different hostage situation, some military officer went around and got all the terrorists families and threatened to kill them if the hostiges were not released - that and the whole gas thing, i'm sure they will try <i>something</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The families thing wouldn't work, most likely, since the rebels probably don't have many relatives left alive anyway. I'm sure the russian police/military will end the situation in one way or another, since the Kremlin hasn't shown much restraint in these situations before. A big body count is usually a side effect.
2nd: What spin? Are you saying that the majority of terrorist groups aren't made up of Muslims?
Racial profiling is not racism, its common sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For discussion sake, lets say the the russian counter terrorists who gassed and killed 100 innocent hostages in the last Chechyn terrorist event were jewish Israelis. hmm?
On topic,
Some people want independence and freedom. What the land is 'worth' doesn't mean anything to them, it's more symbolic.. I mean, whats wrong with wanting your own home?
On the slightly brighter side, at least they are negotiating the return of some children.
No no no its not, imagine the Israeli's gassed the JEWS during WW2.... and... yeah okay, its over
And so is the seige: 10 killed in the storming.
<a href='http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040903/140/f1uvk.html' target='_blank'>Here is an article</a>
Im not sure if we will ever know how many hostages there were, but I doubt the government will give us real numbers. The russian government screwed up another siege. If you are going to so carelessly going to go in; why not tell the hostage takers to kill them, we don't care.
And the russian forces have probably not even stormed the school. Nobody knows for sure what's happening at the moment, how many were killed, how many are injured and how many terrorsist escaped and where they are.
So before posting bs just wait until there is reliable information in a few hours. And marine01, I'm quite sure the russian inland forces are way much more trained than in any other country