I think it's a step in the right direction of making combat more and more like NS. Now maybe we'll soon see onos getting beefed back up, his cost increased to 100 res again, and no more worrying that it will unbalance combat to have a strong onos.
The default CO timeout is 10 minutes, longer times are for babies. Marines either succeed in attacking or dont, there rarely is a need for an onos in combat. Especially if they dont defend and just rush alone for a quick death just to whine whine whine. The everytime evolving makes lerks/gorges overpowered in being flexible, they have primal scream, xenocide or webbing in one.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-ooga_shaga+Sep 4 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ooga_shaga @ Sep 4 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> preferably since now aliens got to re-evolve on spawn, it wild be better to reduce the evolution time to the most minimal possible.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that would defeat the purpose of requiring them to re-evolve.
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Sep 5 2004, 12:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 5 2004, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ooga_shaga+Sep 4 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ooga_shaga @ Sep 4 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> preferably since now aliens got to re-evolve on spawn, it wild be better to reduce the evolution time to the most minimal possible.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that would defeat the purpose of requiring them ro re-evolve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that wasn't the purpose of re-evolve... the purpose of it was to allow aliens to chose other alien class upon spawn... it sorta helps and "unhelp" at same time due to these 3 facts:
-Takes time to re-evolve -Hard to defend base from marines with skulks upon spawn -Advantege marines in anyway...
but in some games, it gives a big boost to aliens... in others a negative boost...
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2004
No, if they wanted that they would have simply allowed aliens to 'unupgrade'. Instead, they made aliens lose their higher lifeform status upon spawn and they increased the gestation time for higher lifeforms in Combat. The clear purpose of this was to penalize dying as a higher lifeform in Combat.
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Sep 5 2004, 12:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 5 2004, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, if they wanted that they would have simply allowed aliens to 'unupgrade'. Instead, they made aliens lose their higher lifeform status upon spawn and they increased the gestation time for higher lifeforms in Combat. The clear purpose of this was to penalize dying as a higher lifeform in Combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> penalise ha, that's mean... what about dying HA+HMG ha ?ha ? isn't that worth penalising... don't forget dmg and armor upgrades he has
I'm not going to pretend that I read this intire topic before posting this, and I understand the complaints presented, but I think we should wait a few weeks before acting on this type of complaint.
We're not looking at a bug here, this is the way the game is designed to be played. Set your servers time limit back to ten minutes the way it is meant to be, and give people a little while to adapt. I can see quite clearly the problematic nature of having to reevolve every death as alein, but to be honest alien players have never been known to be the most conservitive with staying alive in the past playing CO, nor have thier stratigies been quite centered on acctually defending the hive. As it stands now someone can go gorge pretty much whenever he wants to, so there is alot more options in terms of defending that would have taken alot more work pre B5. Give people some more time to adapt and if the problem is still so pronounced a week from now then its fair game to start complaining about it again. ATM it just sounds like you have to start learing to ride your bike again as an alien, but the marine have had no changes at all, thus were feeling a balance discrepency that may not acctually exist.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-project_demon+Sep 5 2004, 02:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (project_demon @ Sep 5 2004, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Sep 5 2004, 12:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 5 2004, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, if they wanted that they would have simply allowed aliens to 'unupgrade'. Instead, they made aliens lose their higher lifeform status upon spawn and they increased the gestation time for higher lifeforms in Combat. The clear purpose of this was to penalize dying as a higher lifeform in Combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> penalise ha, that's mean... what about dying HA+HMG ha ?ha ? isn't that worth penalising... don't forget dmg and armor upgrades he has
[EDIT] and that he could get welded [EDIT]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thing is, the alien higher lifeforms are designed to survive. Lerk and Fade can retreat easily. Onos is strong and can stomp. They are also very easily healed. Heavy armor, on the other hand, cannot escape. Jetpacks can, to an extent, but they are weak and most of the alien classes are faster than them (assuming similar level). Marines are not healed nearly as easily as aliens. Additionally, when a marine dies he spawns on the opposite end of the map as the objective. He then has to walk (or fly) there. Aliens, on the other hand, spawn in the same room as the objective.
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Sep 5 2004, 01:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 5 2004, 01:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thing is, the alien higher lifeforms are designed to survive. Lerk and Fade can retreat easily. Onos is strong and can stomp. They are also very easily healed. Heavy armor, on the other hand, cannot escape. Jetpacks can, to an extent, but they are weak and most of the alien classes are faster than them (assuming similar level). Marines are not healed nearly as easily as aliens. Additionally, when a marine dies he spawns on the opposite end of the map as the objective. He then has to walk (or fly) there. Aliens, on the other hand, spawn in the same room as the objective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If lerks were designed to survive, then why does one or two shotty blasts kill them now? Without the massive looking "recoil", people are more accurate with SG then ever. Fades go down insanly quickly. Onos needs FIVE points to stomp, and even then, needs a lot of help to get to his target before it wears off, let alone gore/eat it without losing 300-400hp.
Nobody uses HA for the most part, but they run as fast as a regular marine. Jetpacks are "weak"? ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... HAHA! oh.. Hahaha.. Just because an alien class is "faster", doesn't mean they're magically going to kill you. I've seen mobs of skulks (5+) with leap fail to take down one jetpacker. This wasn't a pub, either.
Marines are autohealed every two and a half seconds, for half their life total.. for ONE point.
Also, it doesn't matter where you spawn. If a marine dies near the hive, it's a short walk (These are combat maps, mind you). When an alien dies near the hive, it's one or two further deaths for his team mates as spawning aliens trying to evolve die horribly in spawncamped rooms. Egg? What egg. Blammo, three shotty blasts to the umbilicus. D:
If you're going to say this stuff, at least base it in reality first. D:
Edit: This isn't to say that aliens being spawn camped is a bad thing. It's just that the difference between a b4a marine and a b5 marine is relativly small, while the difference between a b4a alien and a b5 alien is massive. I had to up my sensitivity just to move right. D:
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
Lerks only die to shotgunners if they enter melee battle. Fades do not go down easily at all if they don't stay in the fight for more than a swipe or two. Onos may not get stomp easily, but they are nonetheless strong and do not die easily if played correctly (unless the enemy team has jetpackers, but that is a different matter).
Heavy armor does run as fast as a normal marine, but normal marines move too slowly to escape in most cases. Jetpackers are weak relative to Fades, assuming both are played well, and they have a much higher cost in terms of upgrade points.
Marines only autoheal health. To heal fully they must find a teammate with a welder. Aliens can simply return to the hive, which isn't difficult at all considering their speed.
The hive room shouldn't be spawncamped unless the aliens lost all or almost all of their higher lifeforms. In which case they've lost.
This update is MAJOR disappointment! The hit boxes, the biased marines, the re-evolving crap! WTH?!?!?! NS isn't fun anymore... O and the GL is WAYYYYYYYY to powerful!!!! I mean in CO, you can't even spawn... Once you do, you get pummeled by these GL spamming ****s with a reload that is ridiculously short!!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-project_demon+Sep 5 2004, 01:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (project_demon @ Sep 5 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Sep 5 2004, 12:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 5 2004, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, if they wanted that they would have simply allowed aliens to 'unupgrade'. Instead, they made aliens lose their higher lifeform status upon spawn and they increased the gestation time for higher lifeforms in Combat. The clear purpose of this was to penalize dying as a higher lifeform in Combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> penalise ha, that's mean... what about dying HA+HMG ha ?ha ? isn't that worth penalising... don't forget dmg and armor upgrades he has
[EDIT] and that he could get welded [EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you not noticed which side is attacking and which is defending? Right, Aliens are defending. Your only objective is to hold out 10 minutes by default - if you for some reason so inept you can't keep an Onos alive under Hiveheal with your whole team as backup, you should maybe, I don't know... <b>play NS with your hands instead of your feet?</b>
The combat change has been pretty much the only smooth fix in all of beta 5, it makes amazingly little sense to complain about.
<!--QuoteBegin-project_demon+Sep 4 2004, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (project_demon @ Sep 4 2004, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> this was really the change that made marines overpowered in co maps, every time an alien onos would die, he has to spent the 1rst 30 sec when he spawn to evolve... and not only that, what if ur hive is getting attacked by marines, u die as onos and u spawn as useless skulks against HMG and JP and HA WTH <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
to balanec this, they should do same thing for marines... when a marine jp dies, he would have to wait at least 20 sec to get his jp back... same thing for HA... and may be 10 sec for his weapons....
if this stays like this, aliens are doomed... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree to 100%.
Comments
Marines either succeed in attacking or dont, there rarely is a need for an onos in combat.
Especially if they dont defend and just rush alone for a quick death just to whine whine whine.
The everytime evolving makes lerks/gorges overpowered in being flexible, they have primal scream, xenocide or webbing in one.
I like the idea of being able to change my mind about upgrades.
But that would defeat the purpose of requiring them to re-evolve.
But that would defeat the purpose of requiring them ro re-evolve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that wasn't the purpose of re-evolve... the purpose of it was to allow aliens to chose other alien class upon spawn... it sorta helps and "unhelp" at same time due to these 3 facts:
-Takes time to re-evolve
-Hard to defend base from marines with skulks upon spawn
-Advantege marines in anyway...
but in some games, it gives a big boost to aliens... in others a negative boost...
depends or your team and your opponent's team
penalise ha, that's mean... what about dying HA+HMG ha ?ha ? isn't that worth penalising... don't forget dmg and armor upgrades he has
[EDIT] and that he could get welded [EDIT]
We're not looking at a bug here, this is the way the game is designed to be played. Set your servers time limit back to ten minutes the way it is meant to be, and give people a little while to adapt. I can see quite clearly the problematic nature of having to reevolve every death as alein, but to be honest alien players have never been known to be the most conservitive with staying alive in the past playing CO, nor have thier stratigies been quite centered on acctually defending the hive. As it stands now someone can go gorge pretty much whenever he wants to, so there is alot more options in terms of defending that would have taken alot more work pre B5. Give people some more time to adapt and if the problem is still so pronounced a week from now then its fair game to start complaining about it again. ATM it just sounds like you have to start learing to ride your bike again as an alien, but the marine have had no changes at all, thus were feeling a balance discrepency that may not acctually exist.
penalise ha, that's mean... what about dying HA+HMG ha ?ha ? isn't that worth penalising... don't forget dmg and armor upgrades he has
[EDIT] and that he could get welded [EDIT]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is, the alien higher lifeforms are designed to survive. Lerk and Fade can retreat easily. Onos is strong and can stomp. They are also very easily healed. Heavy armor, on the other hand, cannot escape. Jetpacks can, to an extent, but they are weak and most of the alien classes are faster than them (assuming similar level). Marines are not healed nearly as easily as aliens. Additionally, when a marine dies he spawns on the opposite end of the map as the objective. He then has to walk (or fly) there. Aliens, on the other hand, spawn in the same room as the objective.
If lerks were designed to survive, then why does one or two shotty blasts kill them now? Without the massive looking "recoil", people are more accurate with SG then ever. Fades go down insanly quickly. Onos needs FIVE points to stomp, and even then, needs a lot of help to get to his target before it wears off, let alone gore/eat it without losing 300-400hp.
Nobody uses HA for the most part, but they run as fast as a regular marine. Jetpacks are "weak"? ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... HAHA! oh.. Hahaha.. Just because an alien class is "faster", doesn't mean they're magically going to kill you. I've seen mobs of skulks (5+) with leap fail to take down one jetpacker. This wasn't a pub, either.
Marines are autohealed every two and a half seconds, for half their life total.. for ONE point.
Also, it doesn't matter where you spawn. If a marine dies near the hive, it's a short walk (These are combat maps, mind you). When an alien dies near the hive, it's one or two further deaths for his team mates as spawning aliens trying to evolve die horribly in spawncamped rooms. Egg? What egg. Blammo, three shotty blasts to the umbilicus. D:
If you're going to say this stuff, at least base it in reality first. D:
Edit: This isn't to say that aliens being spawn camped is a bad thing. It's just that the difference between a b4a marine and a b5 marine is relativly small, while the difference between a b4a alien and a b5 alien is massive. I had to up my sensitivity just to move right. D:
Heavy armor does run as fast as a normal marine, but normal marines move too slowly to escape in most cases. Jetpackers are weak relative to Fades, assuming both are played well, and they have a much higher cost in terms of upgrade points.
Marines only autoheal health. To heal fully they must find a teammate with a welder. Aliens can simply return to the hive, which isn't difficult at all considering their speed.
The hive room shouldn't be spawncamped unless the aliens lost all or almost all of their higher lifeforms. In which case they've lost.
penalise ha, that's mean... what about dying HA+HMG ha ?ha ? isn't that worth penalising... don't forget dmg and armor upgrades he has
[EDIT] and that he could get welded [EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not noticed which side is attacking and which is defending? Right, Aliens are defending. Your only objective is to hold out 10 minutes by default - if you for some reason so inept you can't keep an Onos alive under Hiveheal with your whole team as backup, you should maybe, I don't know... <b>play NS with your hands instead of your feet?</b>
The combat change has been pretty much the only smooth fix in all of beta 5, it makes amazingly little sense to complain about.
to balanec this, they should do same thing for marines... when a marine jp dies, he would have to wait at least 20 sec to get his jp back... same thing for HA...
and may be 10 sec for his weapons....
if this stays like this, aliens are doomed... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to 100%.