Altair Opinions.
ssjyoda
Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">what ya all think..?</div> im just curious what everyone else thinks.
no disrespect to the mapper, but i think that the devs may have been high when they accepted it. Im not talking about the layout, but the overall look of the map is no where near up to the quality of what i would expect of a ns map. I look at the map and i just get a "custom fanmap" feel. Not putting the designer down at all, but, visually, it needs a lot of work in my opinion.
texture work.. come on, its not hard to texture stairs individually instead of wrapping the wall texture around them.. im specifcally talkin about the ones in ms.
and, the lighting, very bland, and the darkness hinders playability. i used to do the same thing, intentionally dark. but its not very good for mp.
no disrespect to the mapper, but i think that the devs may have been high when they accepted it. Im not talking about the layout, but the overall look of the map is no where near up to the quality of what i would expect of a ns map. I look at the map and i just get a "custom fanmap" feel. Not putting the designer down at all, but, visually, it needs a lot of work in my opinion.
texture work.. come on, its not hard to texture stairs individually instead of wrapping the wall texture around them.. im specifcally talkin about the ones in ms.
and, the lighting, very bland, and the darkness hinders playability. i used to do the same thing, intentionally dark. but its not very good for mp.
Comments
metal, angst, sava, agora (not as bad as it used to be), ayumi, etc...
just because a map may *look* good, doesn't mean anything. Half of the ns maps currently play like complete crap. I would rather play on a crappy looking map that was well balanced than a map such as ayumi that looks stunning but is a pain in the **** to even play any day of the week.
<!--QuoteBegin-bliNk+Sep 4 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bliNk @ Sep 4 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Did this map get in by accident? Looks like it was made in a week and not even finished. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Relic25 said it best
<!--QuoteBegin-Relic25+Apr 11 2003, 12:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Relic25 @ Apr 11 2003, 12:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aren't you a pisser.
Well, ns_bast really dislikes you. It hates your clothing, it hates the way you are built and the way your face is arranged.
See what it's like to give unconstructive criticism?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind if you don't care for the map but please don't insult me and give me the courtesy to explain what you don't like about the map and give me suggestions on how you'd like to see it improved.
I remember Natural-Selection for, Bast,Eclipse,Hera,Caged,Nothing, Nancy and Tanith, they rocked the f***ing shite outta the HL engine.
When the Dev team PT maps they should first of all get the balance right then say . . .ok your map is'nt getting in unless it looks up to standard, visually. because tha new maps looke POO,even some of the co_maps!!!!
I, myself, only played Altair once. This is because I was on marines, and we were spawncamped, so I got a bad first impression.
/Edit: I played altair again, I have to say that it's a nice looking map. But, as marines we lost again. I havn't played enough to say its unbalanced yet...
-some of the monitors are hugely oversized.
-i do remember seeing a res node placed on top of a pipe which was in the floor, this isn't generally bad,but the node model was wider than the pipe, looked bad, increase pipe size.
-a lot of the rooms fell very empty, and lacking.
now that im tryin to think of other things, it always comes back to detail.
-stairs, they dont always look too good when you use the same texture on the floor above the stairs, on the stairs.
best advice would be, don't kid yourself, look at other ns maps, and then look at yours. you are damn lucky kfdm to get in with a map looking like this. but just look at other maps, and just look back at yours and think to yourself whats wrong, what feels out of place. and just work one thing at a time until u feel it can NOT look any better. its hard to judge cause its your map and u want to be prowd of what it is now, but you have to get over that and just look at it as another map. look at it as if its just some random map that popped up, what would u say?
I have not played this map yet, so I have no comment on the gmaeplay.
and many of the rooms are horribly big. i wont tell u to make them smaller, rather add elevation changes, different floor types, obstacles (i dont recommend boxes, i dont think they fit in this map), maybe make some walkways that are a little off the floor so that skulks can hide and ambush from under them.
rt-rooms, make at least the ones that are near hives easy to defend. with vents and ceiling architecture perhaps.
i love the sewer system, although i havent gotten to explore it fully, only played 1 game as alien on the map. but u could try to make them a little more atmospheric if possible. just some weak random red lights and experiment with the color of the water.
overall its very dark. too dark. an official map shouldnt be so dark that its unplayable on some monitors, and a pain to navigate through on others. the sewers can be dark, they should be, and some areas of the map can be a tad darker than others, but u really need to lighten it up. for the sake of gameplay.
id get screenshots but my computer finally stopped co-operation totally. its a wreck, im getting a new one - this week - .
(im on my laptop now)
Maybe cover some of it with wall or unbreakable glass?
Anything you can do to make the sewer easier to navigate via the map? It's not obvious where the endpoints are.
This is just for one room. It'll add more clutter, make it easier for skulks, and the room won't look so big. If you use it, yay! If you don't, no biggie, maybe someone else will <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As a sidenote, you had a water hole like that one in the bottom of the map, I was thinking it could be something similar to that.
EDIT: Typo in the diagram >_<
And I don't know if you spell cieling cieling or ceiling. >_<
I haven't played enough to say something about balance though.
Ok, most of the rooms are quite big and MS is a huge hall.
There are few details but nevertheless I like the dark atmosphere.
Ah, and the "underground" of the map is quite interesting.
The map lags! Just like rebirth. You're framerate will die. I don't know what you mappers do to fix this.
Too big as well. The map lacks defining areas. As in actual rooms. It's just a bunch of curving halls. And about those halls. This map seems to like to jerk you around. You're running away from marines and take a corner. Only for that corner to end up in a deadend. Why a deadend? I dunno. Usually in NS, a hall takes you somewhere. This map is full of useless areas like these. Specifically, there is an area near marine start that has 3 big cylinders. It is right around the corner to the west. There seems to be no point to this little pit here /w the cylinders. Get rid of these. Maybe it would help the FPS issue.
And then there is the useless sewer system. It's like it's own map down there.
Hives. One hive has a huge pit in it. This is like the sub-space hive on veil, but with a huge pit carved into the center. I guess this would help save you from JPers. Maybe one of them will fall in. Another is way too close to marine start.
I'm sure once I learn this map I will avoid the annoying deadends and hopefully learn the sewer system. But I never fully learned nancy's vent system either. I just remembered the ones that had any use.
The map is a bit dark , granted , but bright grey floors make it easier to shoot skulks running in the open ; there is a lot more contrast that in Agora. Dark vents are absolutely great to intercept thoses overpowered jetpacks.
I think the hive rooms are well designed. They promote sieges and epic fights. Lots of sensory nooks to have an easier time defending the hive.
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i dont get this on my new top end card but i had it on my old gf3 (on certain maps) so kno exactly wat u mean... my solution which works is to revert your VIS and RAD tools to the original zoners 2.53, i.e anything but merls or cageys builds. stick with cageys for hlbsp and hlcsg as u get better clipping and optimisation
I keep asking myself why they put this map into the official cycle...other maps like for example ns_widow are a lot better done (my opinion)
PS: i once tried to create a map but faied. ns_altair is a beter map than one that i ll be able to create. ever. But I think that there are maps out there that are a lot bette than altair
On the topic of gamma, I really think it has to be judged in a dark room with the only light coming from the monitor, and when I did that, the lighting dynamics were great.
The hives are pretty fun. I like the one with the pit and the walkway. A couple people were complaining about it, but it's nice to have a room out of the ordinary. The MS with two exits leading in very different directions is nice as well, mixing things up a bit.
A couple changes I'd make: try to add a couple more atmospheric sounds. When you're walking around the map you sorta get the idea that you're in some sorta underwater facility, but it never quite hits home. It'd be neat to have a couple more broken, leaking sections in various parts of the map, and a couple more underwater areas. Also, try to refrain from using the "creature swimming in water" sound. I've always hated when the building and gun loading sounds are played around marine start (it just doesn't make sense, and feels out of place when there's been a reloc), and I don't like it here for the same reason.
Second, there are a whole ton of passageways to nowhere and ladders that aren't really ladders with doors that don't really open. There is an indication that they're inoperable (bulge), but it's really hard to notice. It'd be nice if there was some sort of sparking or a more noticeable bulge so that you don't spend half the time clicking use on doors that won't open.
Long ago I used to play a game called Marathon, an FPS contemporary of Doom that was Mac only and was (brace yourself) 10x better than Doom. So it goes. Anyway, someone wrote a great mapmaking tutorial for Marathon, and the part of it that's really stuck with me is the concept of "flow".
The writer of this tutorial suggested that before you started a map, you should take out some graph paper and plan it out. And before you did that, you should take out a cocktail napkin and plan the basic patterns of movement around the level. If you couldn't easily sketch out with gestures on a napkin the patterns of movement around the map, then the map would probably end up lacking flow.
In my opinion, altair lacks flow. Not to be unkind, but I've nicknamed it "ns_deadend".
The principals of map flow were given in the context of making deathmatch maps, but I think they clearly hold here. When you enter an area, even if you're new to the map, you should have a clear idea of what most or all of your exits are (with the proviso that some suprise routes are good, but should not be the norm). Paths across the map through the various areas should present themselves to the player naturally. Distinct visual references in different areas should be present to aid in map memorization.
On altair, I found myself struggling to get from one area to another. I'd be heading for my destination, and then find myself forced to change direction again and again, eventually in many cases reversing away from my destination and going around what clearly should have been "the long way there", not "the way there", or "the only way there I could find". Looking at the mini-map frequently made it worse, as I'd commit to what looked like a route, only to end up in a dead-end, or a deadend with a weldable door (note to devs: welders for skulks!).
I loved the sewery feel of the sewer and the opporunity to move so far out of view of the marines, but started grinding my teeth waiting for some way *out* of the sewer. Bless you for making a long vent that has character (shakes fist at nancy), but maybe a sign or move vents or something. (Grunty sounds of a skulk saying "Are we there yet?" in khraa). As it is, it felt like just another example of "go a long way this way only to find out that it isn't taking you where you want to go".
I love the way the hives look. Awesome hives. Now if I could only find my way to the one under attack...
I have no comment about the look and feel, other to mention I like the idea of an underwater base, although I agree with others that it could be more obvious.
And seriously, what is up with the aliens hating dark maps? Why why why can't khraa see in the freaking dark? What kind of horror movie villains envy the humans flashlights?
Making maps *is* hard, I agree. I'm glad you want feedback. Good luck to you sir!
-- Like said: it is not visually too impressive. A few steam-pipes would have a nice, positive effect in a few chosen places. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-- There are a lot of ladders not leading anywhere, but I really, REALLY think that there should be at least ONE of them leading to some small, secret room (preferably near marine start and a vent) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-- In overall it's a pretty 'clean' map, IMO.
Have to play more of it before saying anything else.