ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
*shrugs* it takes skill to bunnyhop. I've been trying to do it right for years and only in the last few months have I managed to gain any noticable speed in a reasonably amount of time (and I still can't use it in a combat situation that well, with corners and other stuff blocking me) and I am still practicing all the time in the readyroom. the point is: It's something that takes time to master, will be learned to varying degrees of competence by different people, and gives a boost to the people who have learned it.. Sure it's a physics bug, but it's an accepted part of the ALIEN game.
If bunnyhopping is removed, it will make the already disadvantaged team (the aliens) even weaker. If bhop is removed, then the skulk needs to gain say... a 30% boost in overall speed to make up for it. Then it's like everyone is bunnyhopping (at an average level, since a 70% boost is peak bhop gain)
I agree with the skulk speed increase. If you gave it an extra 5 or 10 hp then its 1 more bullet. I heard that the lmg shoots 15 bullets per second or something like that so that isn't really much but if you gave it a speed increase not only would it be harder to hit but it would reach the marine easier. On the other hand this could make the skulk unbalanced so i say keep it how it is.
A Marine fresh out of the IP atleast has a chance to kill any alien that's raping the base and not concentrating on IPs.
A Skulk that spawns when his Hive is being shot to death by a bunch of heavies is lucky if actually -sees- a marine before he takes a shotgun blast to the face.
Marines have the advantage of range. They can shoot one thing, quickly switch to another, then go back to the first one. Aliens have to run all over and in between. Let's look at the -endgame- for a moment, shall we? Marines are still useful the moment they spawn, even if it's an hour into the game. Their guns are likely upgraded, and even without an HA or jetpack, that LMG can still pack a punch.
Skulks, on the other hand, are reduced to free res for the Marines. The only purpose they serve is to possibly get an HA to reload after killing seven of them so a Fade can swoop in and get a swipe in before the HA's jetpack+SG buddies hoover their way on over.
Seriously though, something needs to be done. Right now, the GORGE is better at killing than the skulk. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Buff the skulk to 70/20, raise speed by 35 units/second (thats 325 units/second). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol... (sorry got a kick out of "gorge = better killer than skulk").
gorge is still not a killer (it is not ment to be). when was the last time you saw a gorge pawn 3 mariens traveling together in short order all by its self?
i think the skulk is fine but yes more play time needs to pass before any change should be considered...
Defending is indeed harder for skulks than it is for marines. Skulks work perfect in ambush, and if you move in groups it works even better.
But Skulks are not way too weak, you guys ever had a skulk running rounds around you, jumping on top of you, making you crazy, and you CANNOT seem to hit the skulk? THAT is ofcourse all close range...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like that solution to a game problem, having to use game physics engine bugs. > 'learn to bunnyhop'<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can be removed completely out of the game with out any negative side effects what so ever, so can wall strafing. It's all easily accessible in pm_shared.c, it doesn't reside in the engine and is somehow untouchable like some seem to think.
Yet they chose to acknowledge it is there and keep it in, they even made it better. Still class it as a bug?
It's a bug no matter what justification you want to toss onto it being 'easily removable'. If you honestly think the q1 engine dev's sat around saying 'hey I know, lets let someone run against a wall or jump and strafe in the air like a cripple go 20-100% faster then normal, sounds good!' then I've got some pristine land in grenada to sell you.
Oh nos tho, I've gone against the e1337 players and have to reside in the fact that i'm just a stupid noob for calling a spade a spade.
It was a mistake in the q engine, but guess what? It turned into a feature. It was purposely left in for a reason. It's like refuseing to use your hands in basket ball, and insted slamming the ball with your hips because that was the way it's first incantation was intended.
I don't even understand why you all think speed is *that* huge a deal. It takes a fraction of a second to get on a marine from a good ambush spot, and they've got no way to escape without any serious knockback. All they can really do is shoot you and hope you can't aim your bites, or for some meds. Bhopping is a nice way to close the deal all the more soundly, and to get into a good position effectively.
Stop commiting suicide with the skulks and you know what? That "free res" will at the very least cost them 1-3 medpacks, which could possibly be totally futile.
Skulk needs nothing, its absolutely fine, vanilla skulk > vanilla marine almost any time. If its a long way, parasite and run, you're not supposed to run to him and hug him. I hope you know that word 'Skulk' actually means sneaking. So you should try it, its kinda useful. Even skulk(s) will lose to a shotgun marine, but shotguns dont come to play that fast.
Well a lone rine should still be able to take a lone skulk easy with comm support, 2 rines is when things get tricky for any number of skulks. Marines grow exponetially in firepower. You wouldn't find yourselves getting "owned by a rambo wtomg" if you'd play smarter. Think about it. You have the knowadge of that player being alone. Aliens have the power to manipulate where to pick the fight all the way untill you're at the hive. Parasite, and wait for joe rambo to close the gap. He's dead if he approaches and useless if he doesn't.
Add health, not armor. With armor, it gets stronger with each hive added, and could overpower the skulk at some point. So, it's less of a risk to add HP.
I think everyone knows the early game skulk is underpowered, so I'm guessing around 85-95 hp and 10 armor would be a balanced and easy change.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With armor, it gets stronger with each hive added<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WTH? what is it you are saying exactly?
<!--QuoteBegin-pip|-+Sep 25 2004, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pip|- @ Sep 25 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With armor, it gets stronger with each hive added<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WTH? what is it you are saying exactly? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With each hive the alien's carapace can take more bullets, the armor absorption rate changes(not the number). This was added around beta 2 I think, to counter weapon upgrades.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59508&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...topic=59508&hl=</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Important note: alien armor is affected by the number of hives you have. 1 hive means armor is worth 1.6 points of health, 2 hives means it's worth 2 points of health, 3 hives means it's worth 2.4 points of health. It's been this way since the first version of 3.0, but keep this in mind when attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ripur+Sep 7 2004, 07:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ripur @ Sep 7 2004, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The fastest humans can sprint somewhere around 60 miles an hour, so accourding to the manual a marine could out run a skulk if he had nothing weighing him down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh no the fastest humans can sprint around 15 miles an hour (4 minute mile)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ripur+Sep 7 2004, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ripur @ Sep 7 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The fastest humans can sprint somewhere around 60 miles an hour, so accourding to the manual a marine could out run a skulk if he had nothing weighing him down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait, I thought the Marines were <i>humans,</i> not <i>cheetahs.</i> Also, just because it might be a representation (albeit, a false one) of one person, it doesn't represent every person; I hope you're not expecting any and every TSA member to obtain and maintain world-record land speeds.
So let us assume for a minute that a human could actually run near 60MPH in a sprint. You would have to get rid of all his armor and weapons, and he should be naked. So, you would have naked marines running through the map, and when they get to a hive they can't do anything because... they are naked.
That aliens should ambush - phrase sounds good and you can get kills with that style. But then all other teamwork will go down. For example if all skulks are trying to ambush marines in ceilings and marines knife down their res towers. You can get decent kill ratio in beginning of game but after that things start to fall apart for aliens team.
My point is that when you are skulk you need some times to attack marines almost head on. Marines will know that skulks are incoming when they knife res towers down or they get hive locked down or double res point etc etc. In first few minutes you only have skulks or maybe lone lerk. And if marines have decent players they will get skulks down when they attack head on.
There is possibility to use different attack angles, ceilings or come behind but if there is smart marine you just need little more health/armor or speed to survive.
And for fun part ... It is really annoying to be skulk in later part of game. Marine can always shoot attacking bigger lifeforms and do some damage and spend that frustration. As alien when you attack HA train your life as skulk goes really fast front of your eyes and most of time you won't land even one bite.
But there is need for only minor buff for skulk and game would be really
The skulk is not laughably weak, shoot, gimme a skulk with cara, and ill find a decent spot to ambush at least 3 marines early game, they arent meant to stand up to bullets, they are supposed to rely on hit/run tactics or sneakiness. If Defense is first, like you presume it always is, then you can as easily have carapace 3 minutes into the game, and with 2 dcs its 20 something armor. So its just serve to make them stronger, which they are fine as is. Unless you're thinking in combat in which everything is weak to something or other.
Comments
If bunnyhopping is removed, it will make the already disadvantaged team (the aliens) even weaker. If bhop is removed, then the skulk needs to gain say... a 30% boost in overall speed to make up for it. Then it's like everyone is bunnyhopping (at an average level, since a 70% boost is peak bhop gain)
Of course upgrades would have to be removed after changing forms...
On the other hand this could make the skulk unbalanced so i say keep it how it is.
A Skulk that spawns when his Hive is being shot to death by a bunch of heavies is lucky if actually -sees- a marine before he takes a shotgun blast to the face.
Marines have the advantage of range. They can shoot one thing, quickly switch to another, then go back to the first one. Aliens have to run all over and in between. Let's look at the -endgame- for a moment, shall we? Marines are still useful the moment they spawn, even if it's an hour into the game. Their guns are likely upgraded, and even without an HA or jetpack, that LMG can still pack a punch.
Skulks, on the other hand, are reduced to free res for the Marines. The only purpose they serve is to possibly get an HA to reload after killing seven of them so a Fade can swoop in and get a swipe in before the HA's jetpack+SG buddies hoover their way on over.
You must <3 teh_skulx.
Give then the love.
Seriously though, something needs to be done. Right now, the GORGE is better at killing than the skulk. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Buff the skulk to 70/20, raise speed by 35 units/second (thats 325 units/second). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol... (sorry got a kick out of "gorge = better killer than skulk").
gorge is still not a killer (it is not ment to be). when was the last time you saw a gorge pawn 3 mariens traveling together in short order all by its self?
i think the skulk is fine but yes more play time needs to pass before any change should be considered...
Skulks work perfect in ambush, and if you move in groups it works even better.
But Skulks are not way too weak, you guys ever had a skulk running rounds around you, jumping on top of you, making you crazy, and you CANNOT seem to hit the skulk?
THAT is ofcourse all close range...
It can be removed completely out of the game with out any negative side effects what so ever, so can wall strafing. It's all easily accessible in pm_shared.c, it doesn't reside in the engine and is somehow untouchable like some seem to think.
Yet they chose to acknowledge it is there and keep it in, they even made it better. Still class it as a bug?
Oh nos tho, I've gone against the e1337 players and have to reside in the fact that i'm just a stupid noob for calling a spade a spade.
I don't even understand why you all think speed is *that* huge a deal. It takes a fraction of a second to get on a marine from a good ambush spot, and they've got no way to escape without any serious knockback. All they can really do is shoot you and hope you can't aim your bites, or for some meds. Bhopping is a nice way to close the deal all the more soundly, and to get into a good position effectively.
Stop commiting suicide with the skulks and you know what? That "free res" will at the very least cost them 1-3 medpacks, which could possibly be totally futile.
vanilla skulk < vanilla marine
carapece skulk < vanilla marine
carapece skulks < vanilla marine with MT
do note that MT makes hiding useless.
the lerk being cheaper might help the gap between fade and skulk. spores are very useful.
I think everyone knows the early game skulk is underpowered, so I'm guessing around 85-95 hp and 10 armor would be a balanced and easy change.
WTH? what is it you are saying exactly?
WTH? what is it you are saying exactly? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With each hive the alien's carapace can take more bullets, the armor absorption rate changes(not the number). This was added around beta 2 I think, to counter weapon upgrades.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59508&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...topic=59508&hl=</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Important note: alien armor is affected by the number of hives you have. 1 hive means armor is worth 1.6 points of health, 2 hives means it's worth 2 points of health, 3 hives means it's worth 2.4 points of health. It's been this way since the first version of 3.0, but keep this in mind when attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why it should be HP not AP that's added.
Uh no the fastest humans can sprint around 15 miles an hour (4 minute mile)
Wait, I thought the Marines were <i>humans,</i> not <i>cheetahs.</i> Also, just because it might be a representation (albeit, a false one) of one person, it doesn't represent every person; I hope you're not expecting any and every TSA member to obtain and maintain world-record land speeds.
Let's do it!
My point is that when you are skulk you need some times to attack marines almost head on. Marines will know that skulks are incoming when they knife res towers down or they get hive locked down or double res point etc etc. In first few minutes you only have skulks or maybe lone lerk. And if marines have decent players they will get skulks down when they attack head on.
There is possibility to use different attack angles, ceilings or come behind but if there is smart marine you just need little more health/armor or speed to survive.
And for fun part ... It is really annoying to be skulk in later part of game. Marine can always shoot attacking bigger lifeforms and do some damage and spend that frustration.
As alien when you attack HA train your life as skulk goes really fast front of your eyes and most of time you won't land even one bite.
But there is need for only minor buff for skulk and game would be really
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
skulks are already very fast... today i wonder how I was able to kill marines in NS 2.0...