Longer Games = Better Games ! ?
Rick_Deckard
Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12855Members
Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12855Members
Hi!
With ongoing betas and releases i noticed a fatal trend with natural selection that i personally dont like (and I am referring only to classic natural selection game style):
Games would just last longer in the past and with versions before v3...
I really enjoyed that longer-lasting gameplay because it would go back and forth and you still had the chance to turn the game against the other party even it was late in the game or even if the enemy seems to be almighty. (public and war)
<b>Now its like that the game is always tipping very very fast to either side.</b>
I noticed that by the following facts:
-If aliens win ... in 90% of the games the 3rd hive isnt fully built and game is ending right before its finished. For what good is that if I never actually use the third hive?
-If marines win...in 90% (and the marines need only to be a little smart) they have HA and are not to be teared down with one hive and a few skulks.... there is not even a little chance for the aliens and they get slaughtered in masses. With the new version this problem is even enhanced and aliens are leaving into the readyroom since its pointless to play on.. there is just no reasonable chance to turn the game to their advantage.
I personally liked the sometimes epic battles when the aliens or marines fighted up to their last moment and life... it was more challenging .....
I am wondering if I am the only person thinking like that... i would be very happy if NS would more move back to that classic gameplay with longer lasting battles.
At the end of the 2 hour match .. even if you lost... cou were thinking: 'wow.. that was a good fight'.... now its like after 15 minutes lost or won 'this was lame... i hope the next game will be more balanced out'.
Any comments are welcome.
Play well
Rick
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
/edit 09/14/2004
We read alot of opinions now on this subject so I ask the "audience" to vote on this subject. Ladies and Gentlemen - vote for your favorite opinion now.
Since polls are deactivated in this forum i would like to add everyone their vote to this thread:
<b>
1.) YES, Flayra please make the games last longer again with more chances to turnaround.
or
2.) NO, game time is cool as it is right now.
</b>
</span>
With ongoing betas and releases i noticed a fatal trend with natural selection that i personally dont like (and I am referring only to classic natural selection game style):
Games would just last longer in the past and with versions before v3...
I really enjoyed that longer-lasting gameplay because it would go back and forth and you still had the chance to turn the game against the other party even it was late in the game or even if the enemy seems to be almighty. (public and war)
<b>Now its like that the game is always tipping very very fast to either side.</b>
I noticed that by the following facts:
-If aliens win ... in 90% of the games the 3rd hive isnt fully built and game is ending right before its finished. For what good is that if I never actually use the third hive?
-If marines win...in 90% (and the marines need only to be a little smart) they have HA and are not to be teared down with one hive and a few skulks.... there is not even a little chance for the aliens and they get slaughtered in masses. With the new version this problem is even enhanced and aliens are leaving into the readyroom since its pointless to play on.. there is just no reasonable chance to turn the game to their advantage.
I personally liked the sometimes epic battles when the aliens or marines fighted up to their last moment and life... it was more challenging .....
I am wondering if I am the only person thinking like that... i would be very happy if NS would more move back to that classic gameplay with longer lasting battles.
At the end of the 2 hour match .. even if you lost... cou were thinking: 'wow.. that was a good fight'.... now its like after 15 minutes lost or won 'this was lame... i hope the next game will be more balanced out'.
Any comments are welcome.
Play well
Rick
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
/edit 09/14/2004
We read alot of opinions now on this subject so I ask the "audience" to vote on this subject. Ladies and Gentlemen - vote for your favorite opinion now.
Since polls are deactivated in this forum i would like to add everyone their vote to this thread:
<b>
1.) YES, Flayra please make the games last longer again with more chances to turnaround.
or
2.) NO, game time is cool as it is right now.
</b>
</span>
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It's just annoying now that a team that slips up slightly starts getting steamrolled with little to no chance of clawing back in most cases unless the other team becomes complacent. Miss the old days with the long games, but I really don't think they're gonna be coming back any time soon. Shame, really. They really need to reduce the slippery slope effect somewhat just so there's at least more than an inkling of a chance to come back.
However, yes, i do agree. Longer games were funner. I don't like the idea of either team gaining the advantage and just winning regardless of what the other team does to try and stop them. That's not good.
I'd preferr an EQUAL game, one in where both teams have equal opprotunity for success, even with the odds stacked in their favor. Some argue that this is possible still in the newer versions, however it takes a lot of teamwork, superb knowledge of the map you're playing on, and a greater efficiency than anything lesser than a CAL level clan can provide. Pubbing doesn't work with NS mode, not in my expirience.
Suggestions? Join a clan or server with people you know and can play with fluidly, or lobby on the forums for a better game. This crowd's taken the latter option.
The main idea I stick to is keeping the teams as even in upgrades and res control as possible, this makes for good even battles with both sides having lots of kills, deaths, carnage and fun.
E.g, if the marines are very good at shooting I wont lock down hives so the aliens can get 2 hives (although I rarly give them 3). This makes for a good 2 hive vs jetpacker/HA game. If the marines are poor, i'll lock down hives but go slow on the HA rollout so the marines/aliens are always involved in good/big battles (and sometimes when HA comes out recycle a hive so the aliens get 2 hives).
I personally say the comm is partly responsible for the fun of the game, a skilled comm can normally just lock down 2 hives, get JP/GL and bore the aliens to death (or whatever method you use), but that doesnt make a GOOD comm.
If either side starts to get bored or whatever i'll just do whatever I can to end the game quick...fun is the main aim.
I also comm 85% when im rines and i could almost everytimr easily lockdown two hives but it would just be boring......
Tech up, give em weps, let 2. hive go up......
monkey ever tried rushing armor3?
so very true
i rember the game where marines were constantly destroying our hives, but there was always one guy who mand hive 2 right before hive 1 was attacked, we always tore through their lock downs.
this lasted 42 mintuits when they just said "forget HA, lets put 2 JP/HMG'ers in all 3 hive locations.
we were destroyed before the game time hit 50..
I miss that, a 45 minute game is seen as incredibly long nowadays <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Epic was what made NS such a different game. If I want some fast paced killing action, I'll play some combat. That is what it is there for, right? I don't need that from classic mode. I want to play a game of classic where the gameplay draws you into the game so much that you want to work hard for the win.
Pre-V3 had that element. The game really drew people into it, so it made the game into a real experience. Even after the initial shock of the new gameplay style wore off, there was still that element that you could come back, and that nothing was set in stone.
I don't really care if Flayra wants 15-20 minute games or not. People don't want 15-20 minutes with a game like this; they want something epic and truly unique to an FPS. The RTS portion of NS has been significantly weakened. If the marines do one or two things right in the first 3 minutes, they pretty much win, unless there's a "perfect" fade.
Wow, that's great. Remind me not to play classic if it requires a higher lifeform for the aliens to survive after the 5 minute mark.
The game is too set in stone now. It fails in the same way that 1.04 failed, with its JP/HMG rushes.
I'm not saying that there needs to be a 2 hour long average game. It's simply unrealistic to have that. However, a realistic time frame of 45 minutes should be more than doable, and I'm talking in a 20 person public server. I don't care about 6 vs 6 clan play. Clans come from public play; they take public play and hone the winning elements to a fine point while getting rid of the losing elements. Clans will adapt and change. The majority of public players are playing NS for one of two things:
1.) Aliens vs Marines.
2.) The RTS element.
Combat is already fulfilling the straight up "aliens vs marines" role very well.
Classic is not fulfilling the RTS element to the extent that it should be. There is no strategy anymore, just the same "5 minute fade" crap over and over again. It's always DMS, it's always "rush for the second hive or we lose."
Instead of aliens vs marines, it's now "aliens survive marines" in both combat and classic.
It's a sad, sad thing that needs to be fixed severely.
You are correct.
Generally:
- Long games (1 Hour)
If you screw up somewhere within the first 10 minutes of the game (which almost always happens to both sides), you have 50 minutes to correct it. Very forgiving for not protecting that resource node when it was under attack.
- Short games (20 minutes)
If you screw up somewhere within the first 10 minutes of the game (which almost always happens to both sides), you have only <b>10</b> minutes to correct it (instead of the long game's 50.) Very unforgiving for not protecting that resource node when it was under attack.
As well, if NS really IS a RTS, most games SHOULD take somewhere around 40 minutes to a hour and a half to complete. Play most StarCraft or WarCraft campaign maps, and they usually take 40 minutes to complete... less if you're a tactical genious, more if you just throw units at them carelessly.
[edit - a very good example of why it's BETTER to have longer game times (course not too long) is when playing chess. The longer it takes to make a move, the more tactically sound a move is (generally) and thus a tactical move will take another tactical move to stop, and so on, giving a very good feeling of success when you finally "check-mate" the opponent. However, lets put a rule into chess that says moves can only take 15 seconds, otherwise your turn is ended. Whatever sense of accomplishment goes out the window, because you KNOW that you AND your opponent wern't getting stressed and thinking throught their moves. Instead, you're fighting the timer just to <i>make</i> that move, that will probably get you killed 5 turns later. (as opposed to 14 turns later, in a longer chess game)]
I don't even see Marines get HA or JP to win anymore, and if they get either it's always jetpacks, which just rolls over the alien team in a matter of seconds.
I loved the long games. I would like to see Flayra giving us back a bit of the old feeling. I don't really like where NS is going...
It's the infamous "slippery slope" I think should be worked out of the game. If you somehow manage to fix that, then it wouldn't matter if the games average 10 minutes, or 2 hours.
Perhaps something as simple as reducing hitpoints of RTs by quite a bit would help reduce the slope a little? Doing so would allow for sneaky skulks/light marines to go out and more quickly interrupt the dominating team's resource flow.
Giving a "base" resource flow of say the equivalent of 2 RTs would also help teams to quicker come-backs.
Welcome to every single one of my games, except for 1 every 2 weeks.
It's the infamous "slippery slope" I think should be worked out of the game. If you somehow manage to fix that, then it wouldn't matter if the games average 10 minutes, or 2 hours.
Perhaps something as simple as reducing hitpoints of RTs by quite a bit would help reduce the slope a little? Doing so would allow for sneaky skulks/light marines to go out and more quickly interrupt the dominating team's resource flow.
Giving a "base" resource flow of say the equivalent of 2 RTs would also help teams to quicker come-backs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this would absolutely ruin the aliens
please dont give suggestions without thinking about them a bit.
Hopefully in future releases we'l see changes that allow for a team to make mistakes, or try different tactics that dont automatically mean that teams loss.
bring back the ways of old where epic long WARS were fought, not battles
Longer games > short games in more ways than one.
If RFK were to be removed, I would imagine longer games where comebacks would be more frequent. I'm not here to argue that RFK SHOULD be removed, but I am saying that it may be a possible reason for faster games.
bring back the ways of old where epic long WARS were fought, not battles <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep
those were best, actually having time to make creative plans
nowadays its, "OMG WUT A N00B LOL!" if you try to break the strangle-hold of the average Cser who found Natural Selection and thought "cool, CS with aliens"
I recall one on Ns_bast in B4a, we had main aft and engine, nothing else. But we came back from the brink, placing seiges in odd locations, fighting through the vents to tram (The aliens had practically infinite res). The game finally ended at the time limit, just as we were about to seige feedwater, leaving them with one hive.
I like the "base res" idea. Brilliant
In the last few week i was thinking why NS lost so much of its atmosphere and this came out. Back in the days you would move down a halllway in a group hoping no aliens would tear you down while you try to accomplish your order from the comp.
You were literally sweating with tension.
Now its like 'Rush down the hallway with a group as fast as you can' (noise doesnt matter). People are only sneaking if they want to go solo and would like to get good spawnkills.
Motion tracking was really an extra the marines hat to work for.. now they have it in the first 5 minutes. A rushing group placed right a the hive is almost unbeatable if the comm is supporting it with some ammo and meds.
Almost everyone is agreeing here that longer games are just more fun, that balanced games (were you still would see a chance to win) aren't so much frustrating.
I would like to hear more suggestions how to slower the gameplay and keep it still balanced or even more balanced. Take away res kills was one idea and establishing a basic res flow of one res tower.... Are there any onther options?
I only can hope that Flayra might take a look into his thread and hear our voice.
Play well
Rick
But this isn't even the major problem.
When all aliens spread out over the map they watched for marine groups (nowadays they have to hide because a rambo will kill them easily) and told the team where they are. Marines started building structures eg. in a hive. A few aliens attacked together. Sometimes they killed all marines, sometimes they were all killed but after the little skulk respawned he just teamed up again and attacked those marines again. Maybe this time with lerk or gorge support.
Nowadays when you respawn the marines have taken half of the map and there is no way to take out their outpost. 9 out of 10 times you have just this one opportunity to turn the tides.
You guys should really take a look at demos like the last CAL finals - those games for example were simply intense and on the verge of tipping towards either side for quite some time.
Fact of the matter is, you can't expect a public server to simply have good teamwork. It only appeared that way to you back in the "good old" days, because you had no idea of the stringent requirements of teamwork yet - and were probably as useless as most of the people you loathe today <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Balancing the game so that lower-skilled teams last longer isn't the answer<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is not true, nor do i think is being suggested.
I think what's being suggested is a increase in research, upgrade, and build times, <i><b>litterally</b></i> putting the game into a slower state. True, players will move and attack with as much speed and skill as they always have, but building, researching, and upgrading takes a far longer time then it currently would basically putting a "maximum speed limit" on the players.
Currently you can get MT or a fade within <b>5</b> minutes. In previous versions this number was <b>4</b> times higher, due to litteral "speed bumps" of build, research, and upgrade times. If anyone has them, show in the change-logs how long it would take to get motion tracking or to become a fade in a earlier pre-'res-for-kills' version. Then, compare them with the current times. I'm certain you will see a significant variance, and that that number sticks to and reinforces the argument of "slowing the game down", irregardless of player ability.
Played since 1.04 and the mod has only gotten better and better no question about it.
Ive comm:ed almost as much as ive played aliens and the 1 thing making the games shorter on pubs are the aliens low rate of knowleadge about marine tactic...
know wich areas that need to have the rts (defend perspective first in mind always).. know where the marine rts are and kill the ones killable... defend ares such as .. err
outside fusion hive in cargo (forgott map name <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and let them have 2 res.. dont run into their base and kill at start unless they reloc ... jsut a waste of alien game time and gives the marines a muuch quicker start (time Vs res ratio)
the res comes in quicker on both sides.. its really a matter on how to handle it, quicker reaction and more teamcommunication / map-knowleadge.
and no longer games is not better games always since its the same principle TACTIC COMMUNICATION AND KNOWING YOUR ENEMIE <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> it just shortens the path the match developed into.
Generall better alien communication is the way so get rid of short games couse any commander that dosent lockdown the entire map will end the game faster then before, its jsut more games with the same outcome...
note that im talking pub.. wich is really the totall base for NS.
Perhaps aliens should be able to activate a distress hormone on the map to let others be aware of where the problem is directly on the mini map. and it would perhaps cost 1 res to discourige missuse (players .. has activated could be boradcasted as well)
And another thing! The game is NOT as forgiving as it used to be for aliens ... almost the entire Alien team needs to build early in the game and ppl are jsut bad at this... so even if you got a good game .. with good ppl the res differance income will shorten the game aaaaalot. this is in my opnionion NO1 problem for the shorten game time.. when u have 2 teams that builds etc you get a good game even if the teams are skill/kill different thats last longer.