yeah, and they could have lost tens of millions more. tbh it's not realistic that the russians would take and hold all of western europe; eventually they would have had to deal with japan (either cut a deal with them, or something).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As soon as we see a republican president take power, the USA starts acting as a independent entitiy and throwing its weight around in order to 'stop terrorism' that just happens to be going on in countries that have alot of oil, the world steps back and does a "double you tee eff". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did the world oppose the invasion of Afghanistan? No it did not; in fact that military action had overwhelming support. Why? Because it actually was fighting terrorism. The two main reasons why so many people opposed the Iraq war was that the evidence of WMDs was very shaky at best and few were convinced that Saddam had links to terrorist groups, namely Al Qaeda.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But of course, previous sabotage works by Allies contributed greatly. (Very ingenious bombs destroyed the dams that powered Germany and Great Britain's air superiority over the English Channel) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The dams raid didn't do as much damage as was hoped. Allied air efforts also had a questionable effect upon Germany. It's worth noting that German productivity was at it's highest in June 1944. The real problem for Germany by the end of the war was fuel and manpower, both of which were almost gone.
It's probably true that Russia would have defeated Germany even if the US hadn't gotten involved. But that opens up a whole new set of options. The only way the US wouldn't have gotten involved would have been if Japan hadn't attacked into the Pacific. Elemants of the Army General Staff wanted to attack Siberia instead. Now if the very divisions that saved Moscow in 1941 had been forced to remain in Siberia instead of being shipped to the front...
Plus an often overlooked factor is the food shipments delivered to Russia by the US. Given that Russia was facing tremendous food problems from 1941 right through to 1945, the capacity of Russia to resist was strengthened greatly by US foodstuffs such as wheat and spam. It might not sound tasty, but when your living of thistle soup it sounds mighty good.
Nevertheless, the Russians vastly outweighed the Germans in both manpower and equipment. Much of the Russian equipment was also superior to the German equivilants as well, though Russian tactics early in the war left much to be desired. It's quite possible, even probable, that Moscow would not have fallen in 1941 even if the Siberian divisions from the east hadn't been there. The Germans were exhasted, their equipment was in urgent need of repair and the winter was setting in. That was their only real chance, a quick war that would knock Russia out without protraction. In a war of attrition, Russia was always going to win.
When asking ourselves if the world owes the US anything, let's remember something: the US got involved in WWII because it was attacked. The US did not intervene in the intrests of other nations; it was in it's own intrests. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and invaded American possessions in the Pacific. Germany declared war on the United States, not the other way around. Would the US have gotten itself involved if Japan and Germany had left them alone? Who can say.
Finally, guys this is an informal, unrepresentative, non-legally binding, half-serious, half-humerous web site. The fact that 9% of France votes for Bush is entirely irrelivent and in no way representative of anything; there's no way to prove the nationality of anyone participating in the vote. Some 12 year olds at a net cafe in Dallas could be sitting there chuckling that "Everyone will think France hates Bush now". The same goes for any other country on the list. The results of this test could be interesting to some, and it's worth noting that even factoring in prank votes, there is a tremendous swing against Bush. But it's not a real voting process.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 12 2004, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 12 2004, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asking ourselves if the world owes the US anything, let's remember something: the US got involved in WWII because it was attacked. The US did not intervene in the intrests of other nations; it was in it's own intrests. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and invaded American possessions in the Pacific. Germany declared war on the United States, not the other way around. Would the US have gotten itself involved if Japan and Germany had left them alone? Who can say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that is the truth; people in the US were pretty isolationist before Pearl Harbor, although IIRC from my ap american/euro history classes, the administration wasn't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Sep 12 2004, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 12 2004, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 12 2004, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 12 2004, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asking ourselves if the world owes the US anything, let's remember something: the US got involved in WWII because it was attacked. The US did not intervene in the intrests of other nations; it was in it's own intrests. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and invaded American possessions in the Pacific. Germany declared war on the United States, not the other way around. Would the US have gotten itself involved if Japan and Germany had left them alone? Who can say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is the truth; people in the US were pretty isolationist before Pearl Harbor, although IIRC from my ap american/euro history classes, the administration wasn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is preciously why USA is so involved with world affairs today. We learned a valuable lesson, and that is you cannot ignore your problems.
Just to be really lame but to jump on the obvious:
"With great power comes great responsibility."
This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, <b>they will depend on you.</b> By the way, replace "you" with "USA"
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 12 2004, 11:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 12 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Sep 12 2004, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 12 2004, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 12 2004, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 12 2004, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When asking ourselves if the world owes the US anything, let's remember something: the US got involved in WWII because it was attacked. The US did not intervene in the intrests of other nations; it was in it's own intrests. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and invaded American possessions in the Pacific. Germany declared war on the United States, not the other way around. Would the US have gotten itself involved if Japan and Germany had left them alone? Who can say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is the truth; people in the US were pretty isolationist before Pearl Harbor, although IIRC from my ap american/euro history classes, the administration wasn't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is preciously why USA is so involved with world affairs today. We learned a valuable lesson, and that is you cannot ignore your problems.
Just to be really lame but to jump on the obvious:
"With great power comes great responsibility."
This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, <b>they will depend on you.</b> By the way, replace "you" with "USA" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Responsible people don't shoot first and ask questions later. (I know this isn't entirely fair, but the point stands, why isn't America doing alot more global aid and alot less shooting?)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, they will depend on you. By the way, replace "you" with "USA" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you must ask yourself if people want you to interfere. If the US is helping people, why is there so much anti-US sentiment? It's one thing to help a nation out when they ask for it; it's another entirely to walk into another nation and tell them that you're here to help. Nations like Iraq find themselves depending on the US because the US made them what they are today. Europe does not rely upon the US any more, not with the USSR gone and nuclear arsenals ending major conflict.
Understand that your way of doing things and your way of thinking arn't always the correct ones. The Iraq war is a perfect example of this. *You* believed there were WMDs there, *you* believed there were terrorist links. You didn't care that others didn't think the same way; you believed that you were right. Now you're paying the price for that: you've lost most of the international support that you enjoyed after S-11. Before the Iraq issue, just about every nation on the planet was willing and eager to help you track down terrorist forces. Now you've thrown that support away, and instead you've alienated half of Europe, Russia, China and angered the entire Islamic world, most of which was supporting the war on terror. Look at the very poll this thread is based around: the world does not like the way you've been handling yourself!
As long as we're pulling quotes out, consider this one from Futurama:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leela: One of these men will become President of Earth Fry: What do we care? We live in the United States Leela: The United States is part of Earth Fry: Wow I have been gone a long time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
people who hate america because of its goverments actions are just as ignorant and uneducated as the americans who think every european is a sissy liberal and without the U. S. A. we'd all be in german/russian camps.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 13 2004, 07:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 13 2004, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, they will depend on you. By the way, replace "you" with "USA" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you must ask yourself if people want you to interfere. If the US is helping people, why is there so much anti-US sentiment? It's one thing to help a nation out when they ask for it; it's another entirely to walk into another nation and tell them that you're here to help. Nations like Iraq find themselves depending on the US because the US made them what they are today. Europe does not rely upon the US any more, not with the USSR gone and nuclear arsenals ending major conflict.
Understand that your way of doing things and your way of thinking arn't always the correct ones. The Iraq war is a perfect example of this. *You* believed there were WMDs there, *you* believed there were terrorist links. You didn't care that others didn't think the same way; you believed that you were right. Now you're paying the price for that: you've lost most of the international support that you enjoyed after S-11. Before the Iraq issue, just about every nation on the planet was willing and eager to help you track down terrorist forces. Now you've thrown that support away, and instead you've alienated half of Europe, Russia, China and angered the entire Islamic world, most of which was supporting the war on terror. Look at the very poll this thread is based around: the world does not like the way you've been handling yourself!
As long as we're pulling quotes out, consider this one from Futurama:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leela: One of these men will become President of Earth Fry: What do we care? We live in the United States Leela: The United States is part of Earth Fry: Wow I have been gone a long time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah HA! I see the real nefarious mind behind this thread -this is Ryo's attempt to have a discussion without actually going into discussion!
You know you cant stay away forever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
stop wasting your life <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My thoughts exactly.
This thread has a nice comedy value , but it's obviously not the place to "learn" anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate when people try and have a political discussion in the off-topic forums, 90% of the time it degenerates into idiocy. BUSH O4!! DO IT OR ELSE....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there's anything else to add. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-voogru+Sep 13 2004, 08:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voogru @ Sep 13 2004, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course other countries like Kerry better, Kerry is gonna outsource americas defense, to the UN.
The whole "war on terror" issue, is really quite simple.
The best defense is a good offense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what are you on?! we want your defence contracts?! thats like some kind of insane us and them mentalitly festering away there...
also, even though i dont agree with your summing up of the war on terror, theres a notable differance between a 'good offence'' which might entale something along the lines of reducing the number of terrorists in the world, and the current attitude of 'bring it on' lets fuel another generation of terrorist.
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Sep 14 2004, 12:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Sep 14 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> also, even though i dont agree with your summing up of the war on terror, theres a notable differance between a 'good offence'' which might entale something along the lines of reducing the number of terrorists in the world, and the current attitude of 'bring it on' lets fuel another generation of terrorist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because everyone knows that terrorists are more dangerous enmasse, and plus, before we invaded Iraq, the pathetic few terrorists that did exist at that time had barely scratched us..... Still, its good to know that if we just behave, and maybe leave the Muslim's alone, they'll stay in the Middle East and be nice to one another. Things could get really nasty if they considered our power and freedom an affront to Allah, and its not like the demand that we all submit to their religion is unreasonable, because these guys are very reasonable. So reasonable that left wingers everywhere fall over themselves suggesting we talk to the terrorists and find out whats wrong, because they're basically nice guys with anger management issues....
Hang on - there's a side of bacon flapping outside my window....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because everyone knows that terrorists are more dangerous enmasse, and plus, before we invaded Iraq, the pathetic few terrorists that did exist at that time had barely scratched us..... Still, its good to know that if we just behave, and maybe leave the Muslim's alone, they'll stay in the Middle East and be nice to one another. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well...yeah, they have barely scratched us. 3000 dead in New York is, in the greater scheme of things, paltry. Ten times that number die each year from road accidents.
There also arn't that many terrorists. Consider this: how many attacks have occured? Not many. How much trouble are we having fighting them? Considerable, but that's because a) we're going about it the wrong way and b) they're usually hidden in much larger populations that arn't hostile e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia. If there really were salivating hordes of Islamic demons trying to bring down our societies then we would be experiancing daily attacks. As it is, we get maybe one or two a year. Hardly the actions of a large number of people.
Invading Islamic countries does a number of things. Firstly, it creates terrorists in the country being invaded. Iraq, which could hardly have been considered a hotbed of terrorist activity, is now ground zero for attacks on US personel. Secondly, it creates terrorists in other Islamic countries. Muslims who were previously moderates or neutrals see the US invading one of the oldest Islamic regions on Earth and are more likely to listen to extreamist/fundamentalist propaganda. Thirdly, it adds weight to the arguements of Osama Bin Laden and other radicals, who claim the west in engaged in a war against all of Islam.
The simple base line is that most Muslims don't hate the west. They're just like us. They try and raise their kids, they marry, they work down the street, they buy a house, they practice their faith. They dislike these terrorists as much as we do, argueably more because they're warping their religion. Need I remind you that Osama's forces have hit Islamic targets as well, and terrorist forces don't seem to care about collatoral damage to Muslims.
Terrorists for the most part can't be reasoned with. They're fanatics willing to die for their cause. Please Marine01 stop putting words in the mouths of liberals. Just because we opposed the Iraq war does not mean that we think we should sprinkle flowers on Osama and his ilk and dance around on grassy hills while pink bunnies hop cutely by. We understand that terrorism must be fought. But we don't think that invading countries is the right way to do it. Terrorists will simply move elsewhere and blend into the population as they generally tend to do. In the process we anger the very people who can help us the most: Muslims. Terrorists from organisations like Al Qaeda tend to live amongst other Muslims, to blend in and disguise themselves. Angering Islamic people and their governments only helps terrorists to elude us.
We can win this battle. But we have to work with the world, not against it. The task now is to repair the damage done by the Iraq war as best we can and try to salvage our relations with Islamic nations.
Allow me to propose a simple mathematical proof that you can use to make your future political choices:
USA > all
The main reason people not citizens of the USA don't get to vote is because they are in fact part of the "all" group in the above inequality, thank god.
<!--QuoteBegin-BreakfastSausages+Sep 13 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BreakfastSausages @ Sep 13 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Allow me to propose a simple mathematical proof that you can use to make your future political choices:
USA > all
The main reason people not citizens of the USA don't get to vote is because they are in fact part of the "all" group in the above inequality, thank god. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> brilliant. you need to be a professor emeritus at my college <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BreakfastSausages+Sep 13 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BreakfastSausages @ Sep 13 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Allow me to propose a simple mathematical proof that you can use to make your future political choices:
USA > all
The main reason people not citizens of the USA don't get to vote is because they are in fact part of the "all" group in the above inequality, thank god. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know. In my culture, I was taught that everyone in the world are brothers and sisters.
The world doesn't want Bush because they fear a strong US president.
France is mad about the Iraq situation because they lost lots of profitable business deals.
Sorry world, this country is being led by a ballsy leader, even if he does sound stupid when he speaks. I don't care how well Bush speaks, but he led the nation on the right path in my book.
I have oppurtunity that you don't, because people like Bush are insuring that I have a future. Come to America and revel in the oppurtunity for success here.
I met a taxi driver from Pakistan this past summer. He was taking classes at night so he could get an advanced degree and bring his fiance over, so she can become a practicing psychologist.
This is a country of dreams, of almost uncapped oppurtunity.
Kerry is part of a movement that is working to cap oppurtunity through fake equality.
Bush is part of a movement which desires to give everyone the oppurtunity given here, in these United States.
I don't agree with Bush on many issues (I'm far more Libertarian than him), but voting for Bush will at least make sure I can still build my dream here. I don't have that with Kerry.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 13 2004, 08:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 13 2004, 08:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Iraq, which could hardly have been considered a hotbed of terrorist activity, is now ground zero for attacks on US personel. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1999 - This year began Iraq’s more direct support for Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist groups that target Israeli civilians. It is also around this time Saddam Hussein began sending $25,000 checks to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
2000 - On February 2, the ringleader of the 9/11 hijackers, Mohammed Atta met with Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer posing as a diplomat at the Iraqi embassy in Prague, Czech Republic. The next day, Atta went to Florida to begin flight school.
Beginning in 1997, and continuing through the beginning of the Iraq War, between 1,200 and 1,500 Iraqi special forces would infiltrate Jordan to reach areas of Islamic radicalism as well as Palestinian refugee camps to deliver arms and ammunition to Arafat’s militants and Hamas in the West Bank and Jordan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems that Iraq and Saddam had a bit more terrorist activity, relationships and sponsorships, that are not known by many. Now some of these may not be accurate but I would assume that the majority are rooted in truth considering the author cited every single example.
The issue of supporting Palestinian forces is more in a field of it's own. Rather like US businessmen sending funds to the IRA. Yes, Saddam did support groups fighting against Israel, but then again half of the leading people in the Middle East support them. It's viewed by the region, and in fact much of the world if UN resolutions are anything to go by, as a war in which terrorist tactics are used, rather than a simple case of terrorists.
The whole Palestinian issue is a tricky one. However, prior to the Iraq war we were told of links between Al Qaeda and Saddam, which have come to nothing. Thousands of Iraqis who would not have joined Osama's forces now wage daily war on our forces. Osama also gets the prefect place to train new fighters against real targets. It also diverts and distracts materials that could have been spent elsewhere to better combat actual terrorist targets. The end result is that Osama and his ilk have benefitted greatly from the Iraq war.
I agree about the Palestinian affair and I was merely stating some of the more potent connections.
Aside from that though, if Im not mistaken, the 9/11 Commission stated in their final report that there had been communication with Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden although there was no formal "relationship" which can be interpreted in many different ways. However, not having actually read the actual report, I could be wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Sep 13 2004, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Sep 13 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... I have oppurtunity that you don't, because people like Bush are insuring that I have a future. Come to America and revel in the oppurtunity for success here.
I met a taxi driver from Pakistan this past summer. He was taking classes at night so he could get an advanced degree and bring his fiance over, so she can become a practicing psychologist.
This is a country of dreams, of almost uncapped oppurtunity. ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You illuminex, <i>really</i> ought to read <a href='http://www.henryholt.com/holt/nickelanddimed.htm' target='_blank'>Nickel and Dimed</a>, it will be of great benefit to you and your idealistic view of "uncapped prosperity". Maybe then you won't like Reaganomics as much as you seem to.
Oh and Ryo-Ohki, you rock. Good to see liberal opinions presented logically and clearly, for once.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Sep 12 2004, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Sep 12 2004, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now I wonder how many of the people voting know anything about Kerry or his platform beyond "He isn't Bush". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They're wrong, Kerry really is Bush - It's a trick!
Oh, and: <a href='http://www.energyradio.fm/anm/templates/ftf.aspx?articleid=93&zoneid=5' target='_blank'>Mr. Bush has a message for you.</a> (...sort of)
I just want more than a majority of the American population to vote...I don't care who it's for, but more than 50%. The "beacon of freedom and liberty" and only 48.3% of the people get off their **** to vote.
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Sep 13 2004, 09:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Sep 13 2004, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Vote for Kerry! I know nothing about the guy, but he smiles friendlier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And that's about it too...
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did the world oppose the invasion of Afghanistan? No it did not; in fact that military action had overwhelming support. Why? Because it actually was fighting terrorism. The two main reasons why so many people opposed the Iraq war was that the evidence of WMDs was very shaky at best and few were convinced that Saddam had links to terrorist groups, namely Al Qaeda.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But of course, previous sabotage works by Allies contributed greatly. (Very ingenious bombs destroyed the dams that powered Germany and Great Britain's air superiority over the English Channel) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The dams raid didn't do as much damage as was hoped. Allied air efforts also had a questionable effect upon Germany. It's worth noting that German productivity was at it's highest in June 1944. The real problem for Germany by the end of the war was fuel and manpower, both of which were almost gone.
It's probably true that Russia would have defeated Germany even if the US hadn't gotten involved. But that opens up a whole new set of options. The only way the US wouldn't have gotten involved would have been if Japan hadn't attacked into the Pacific. Elemants of the Army General Staff wanted to attack Siberia instead. Now if the very divisions that saved Moscow in 1941 had been forced to remain in Siberia instead of being shipped to the front...
Plus an often overlooked factor is the food shipments delivered to Russia by the US. Given that Russia was facing tremendous food problems from 1941 right through to 1945, the capacity of Russia to resist was strengthened greatly by US foodstuffs such as wheat and spam. It might not sound tasty, but when your living of thistle soup it sounds mighty good.
Nevertheless, the Russians vastly outweighed the Germans in both manpower and equipment. Much of the Russian equipment was also superior to the German equivilants as well, though Russian tactics early in the war left much to be desired. It's quite possible, even probable, that Moscow would not have fallen in 1941 even if the Siberian divisions from the east hadn't been there. The Germans were exhasted, their equipment was in urgent need of repair and the winter was setting in. That was their only real chance, a quick war that would knock Russia out without protraction. In a war of attrition, Russia was always going to win.
When asking ourselves if the world owes the US anything, let's remember something: the US got involved in WWII because it was attacked. The US did not intervene in the intrests of other nations; it was in it's own intrests. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and invaded American possessions in the Pacific. Germany declared war on the United States, not the other way around. Would the US have gotten itself involved if Japan and Germany had left them alone? Who can say.
Finally, guys this is an informal, unrepresentative, non-legally binding, half-serious, half-humerous web site. The fact that 9% of France votes for Bush is entirely irrelivent and in no way representative of anything; there's no way to prove the nationality of anyone participating in the vote. Some 12 year olds at a net cafe in Dallas could be sitting there chuckling that "Everyone will think France hates Bush now". The same goes for any other country on the list. The results of this test could be interesting to some, and it's worth noting that even factoring in prank votes, there is a tremendous swing against Bush. But it's not a real voting process.
that is the truth; people in the US were pretty isolationist before Pearl Harbor, although IIRC from my ap american/euro history classes, the administration wasn't.
that is the truth; people in the US were pretty isolationist before Pearl Harbor, although IIRC from my ap american/euro history classes, the administration wasn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is preciously why USA is so involved with world affairs today. We learned a valuable lesson, and that is you cannot ignore your problems.
Just to be really lame but to jump on the obvious:
"With great power comes great responsibility."
This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, <b>they will depend on you.</b> By the way, replace "you" with "USA"
that is the truth; people in the US were pretty isolationist before Pearl Harbor, although IIRC from my ap american/euro history classes, the administration wasn't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is preciously why USA is so involved with world affairs today. We learned a valuable lesson, and that is you cannot ignore your problems.
Just to be really lame but to jump on the obvious:
"With great power comes great responsibility."
This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, <b>they will depend on you.</b> By the way, replace "you" with "USA" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Responsible people don't shoot first and ask questions later. (I know this isn't entirely fair, but the point stands, why isn't America doing alot more global aid and alot less shooting?)
This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, they will depend on you. By the way, replace "you" with "USA"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you must ask yourself if people want you to interfere. If the US is helping people, why is there so much anti-US sentiment? It's one thing to help a nation out when they ask for it; it's another entirely to walk into another nation and tell them that you're here to help. Nations like Iraq find themselves depending on the US because the US made them what they are today. Europe does not rely upon the US any more, not with the USSR gone and nuclear arsenals ending major conflict.
Understand that your way of doing things and your way of thinking arn't always the correct ones. The Iraq war is a perfect example of this. *You* believed there were WMDs there, *you* believed there were terrorist links. You didn't care that others didn't think the same way; you believed that you were right. Now you're paying the price for that: you've lost most of the international support that you enjoyed after S-11. Before the Iraq issue, just about every nation on the planet was willing and eager to help you track down terrorist forces. Now you've thrown that support away, and instead you've alienated half of Europe, Russia, China and angered the entire Islamic world, most of which was supporting the war on terror. Look at the very poll this thread is based around: the world does not like the way you've been handling yourself!
As long as we're pulling quotes out, consider this one from Futurama:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Leela: One of these men will become President of Earth
Fry: What do we care? We live in the United States
Leela: The United States is part of Earth
Fry: Wow I have been gone a long time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bush kerry 2004
The whole "war on terror" issue, is really quite simple.
The best defense is a good offense.
This is so true, you CAN NOT have all this power, and just hope people won't mind, or think that you can't do anything... you can do something, and whether people will admit it or not, they will depend on you. By the way, replace "you" with "USA"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you must ask yourself if people want you to interfere. If the US is helping people, why is there so much anti-US sentiment? It's one thing to help a nation out when they ask for it; it's another entirely to walk into another nation and tell them that you're here to help. Nations like Iraq find themselves depending on the US because the US made them what they are today. Europe does not rely upon the US any more, not with the USSR gone and nuclear arsenals ending major conflict.
Understand that your way of doing things and your way of thinking arn't always the correct ones. The Iraq war is a perfect example of this. *You* believed there were WMDs there, *you* believed there were terrorist links. You didn't care that others didn't think the same way; you believed that you were right. Now you're paying the price for that: you've lost most of the international support that you enjoyed after S-11. Before the Iraq issue, just about every nation on the planet was willing and eager to help you track down terrorist forces. Now you've thrown that support away, and instead you've alienated half of Europe, Russia, China and angered the entire Islamic world, most of which was supporting the war on terror. Look at the very poll this thread is based around: the world does not like the way you've been handling yourself!
As long as we're pulling quotes out, consider this one from Futurama:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Leela: One of these men will become President of Earth
Fry: What do we care? We live in the United States
Leela: The United States is part of Earth
Fry: Wow I have been gone a long time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah HA! I see the real nefarious mind behind this thread -this is Ryo's attempt to have a discussion without actually going into discussion!
You know you cant stay away forever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
stop wasting your life <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts exactly.
This thread has a nice comedy value , but it's obviously not the place to "learn" anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate when people try and have a political discussion in the off-topic forums, 90% of the time it degenerates into idiocy. BUSH O4!! DO IT OR ELSE....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there's anything else to add. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The whole "war on terror" issue, is really quite simple.
The best defense is a good offense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what are you on?!
we want your defence contracts?!
thats like some kind of insane us and them mentalitly festering away there...
also, even though i dont agree with your summing up of the war on terror, theres a notable differance between a 'good offence'' which might entale something along the lines of reducing the number of terrorists in the world, and the current attitude of 'bring it on' lets fuel another generation of terrorist.
Because everyone knows that terrorists are more dangerous enmasse, and plus, before we invaded Iraq, the pathetic few terrorists that did exist at that time had barely scratched us..... Still, its good to know that if we just behave, and maybe leave the Muslim's alone, they'll stay in the Middle East and be nice to one another. Things could get really nasty if they considered our power and freedom an affront to Allah, and its not like the demand that we all submit to their religion is unreasonable, because these guys are very reasonable. So reasonable that left wingers everywhere fall over themselves suggesting we talk to the terrorists and find out whats wrong, because they're basically nice guys with anger management issues....
Hang on - there's a side of bacon flapping outside my window....
Because everyone knows that terrorists are more dangerous enmasse, and plus, before we invaded Iraq, the pathetic few terrorists that did exist at that time had barely scratched us..... Still, its good to know that if we just behave, and maybe leave the Muslim's alone, they'll stay in the Middle East and be nice to one another. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well...yeah, they have barely scratched us. 3000 dead in New York is, in the greater scheme of things, paltry. Ten times that number die each year from road accidents.
There also arn't that many terrorists. Consider this: how many attacks have occured? Not many. How much trouble are we having fighting them? Considerable, but that's because a) we're going about it the wrong way and b) they're usually hidden in much larger populations that arn't hostile e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia. If there really were salivating hordes of Islamic demons trying to bring down our societies then we would be experiancing daily attacks. As it is, we get maybe one or two a year. Hardly the actions of a large number of people.
Invading Islamic countries does a number of things. Firstly, it creates terrorists in the country being invaded. Iraq, which could hardly have been considered a hotbed of terrorist activity, is now ground zero for attacks on US personel. Secondly, it creates terrorists in other Islamic countries. Muslims who were previously moderates or neutrals see the US invading one of the oldest Islamic regions on Earth and are more likely to listen to extreamist/fundamentalist propaganda. Thirdly, it adds weight to the arguements of Osama Bin Laden and other radicals, who claim the west in engaged in a war against all of Islam.
The simple base line is that most Muslims don't hate the west. They're just like us. They try and raise their kids, they marry, they work down the street, they buy a house, they practice their faith. They dislike these terrorists as much as we do, argueably more because they're warping their religion. Need I remind you that Osama's forces have hit Islamic targets as well, and terrorist forces don't seem to care about collatoral damage to Muslims.
Terrorists for the most part can't be reasoned with. They're fanatics willing to die for their cause. Please Marine01 stop putting words in the mouths of liberals. Just because we opposed the Iraq war does not mean that we think we should sprinkle flowers on Osama and his ilk and dance around on grassy hills while pink bunnies hop cutely by. We understand that terrorism must be fought. But we don't think that invading countries is the right way to do it. Terrorists will simply move elsewhere and blend into the population as they generally tend to do. In the process we anger the very people who can help us the most: Muslims. Terrorists from organisations like Al Qaeda tend to live amongst other Muslims, to blend in and disguise themselves. Angering Islamic people and their governments only helps terrorists to elude us.
We can win this battle. But we have to work with the world, not against it. The task now is to repair the damage done by the Iraq war as best we can and try to salvage our relations with Islamic nations.
USA > all
The main reason people not citizens of the USA don't get to vote is because they are in fact part of the "all" group in the above inequality, thank god.
USA > all
The main reason people not citizens of the USA don't get to vote is because they are in fact part of the "all" group in the above inequality, thank god. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
brilliant. you need to be a professor emeritus at my college <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
USA > all
The main reason people not citizens of the USA don't get to vote is because they are in fact part of the "all" group in the above inequality, thank god. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know. In my culture, I was taught that everyone in the world are brothers and sisters.
Must be the self-righteous American thing.
France is mad about the Iraq situation because they lost lots of profitable business deals.
Sorry world, this country is being led by a ballsy leader, even if he does sound stupid when he speaks. I don't care how well Bush speaks, but he led the nation on the right path in my book.
I have oppurtunity that you don't, because people like Bush are insuring that I have a future. Come to America and revel in the oppurtunity for success here.
I met a taxi driver from Pakistan this past summer. He was taking classes at night so he could get an advanced degree and bring his fiance over, so she can become a practicing psychologist.
This is a country of dreams, of almost uncapped oppurtunity.
Kerry is part of a movement that is working to cap oppurtunity through fake equality.
Bush is part of a movement which desires to give everyone the oppurtunity given here, in these United States.
I don't agree with Bush on many issues (I'm far more Libertarian than him), but voting for Bush will at least make sure I can still build my dream here. I don't have that with Kerry.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1999 - This year began Iraq’s more direct support for Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist groups that target Israeli civilians. It is also around this time Saddam Hussein began sending $25,000 checks to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
2000 - On February 2, the ringleader of the 9/11 hijackers, Mohammed Atta met with Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer posing as a diplomat at the Iraqi embassy in Prague, Czech Republic. The next day, Atta went to Florida to begin flight school.
Beginning in 1997, and continuing through the beginning of the Iraq War, between 1,200 and 1,500 Iraqi special forces would infiltrate Jordan to reach areas of Islamic radicalism as well as Palestinian refugee camps to deliver arms and ammunition to Arafat’s militants and Hamas in the West Bank and Jordan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Iraq%20Terror.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Iraq%20Terror.htm</a>
It seems that Iraq and Saddam had a bit more terrorist activity, relationships and sponsorships, that are not known by many. Now some of these may not be accurate but I would assume that the majority are rooted in truth considering the author cited every single example.
The whole Palestinian issue is a tricky one. However, prior to the Iraq war we were told of links between Al Qaeda and Saddam, which have come to nothing. Thousands of Iraqis who would not have joined Osama's forces now wage daily war on our forces. Osama also gets the prefect place to train new fighters against real targets. It also diverts and distracts materials that could have been spent elsewhere to better combat actual terrorist targets. The end result is that Osama and his ilk have benefitted greatly from the Iraq war.
Aside from that though, if Im not mistaken, the 9/11 Commission stated in their final report that there had been communication with Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden although there was no formal "relationship" which can be interpreted in many different ways. However, not having actually read the actual report, I could be wrong.
I have oppurtunity that you don't, because people like Bush are insuring that I have a future. Come to America and revel in the oppurtunity for success here.
I met a taxi driver from Pakistan this past summer. He was taking classes at night so he could get an advanced degree and bring his fiance over, so she can become a practicing psychologist.
This is a country of dreams, of almost uncapped oppurtunity.
... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You illuminex, <i>really</i> ought to read <a href='http://www.henryholt.com/holt/nickelanddimed.htm' target='_blank'>Nickel and Dimed</a>, it will be of great benefit to you and your idealistic view of "uncapped prosperity". Maybe then you won't like Reaganomics as much as you seem to.
Oh and Ryo-Ohki, you rock. Good to see liberal opinions presented logically and clearly, for once.
They're wrong, Kerry really is Bush - It's a trick!
Oh, and:
<a href='http://www.energyradio.fm/anm/templates/ftf.aspx?articleid=93&zoneid=5' target='_blank'>Mr. Bush has a message for you.</a> (...sort of)
I just want more than a majority of the American population to vote...I don't care who it's for, but more than 50%. The "beacon of freedom and liberty" and only 48.3% of the people get off their **** to vote.
Bah, all those people should be beaten.
And that's about it too...