A Plea To Stop Nerfing The Khaara...
Skyrage
Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Members
Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Members
The next version of NS better see some real khaara improvements instead of marine improvements, cause looking back for the last few versions (this last one not really counting as it was meant for bugfixes mainly), I've only seen serious marine improvements...this is pretty much a plea to see to that the aliens gets fixed for the next beta and not nerfed...let the marines be nerfed for once, and god knows that they need some of that...(knife, siege, MT coming to mind)
As of now, this is how it stands...a small summary on how the teams look like...feel free to disagree on any points tho:
Skulk = worthless mid and late game...only viable early game as an ambush/stalking unit...stalking out rambo marines or ambushing small groups of marines...assuming that the rines don't have MT then of course...It's only other advantage is it's speed (and leap), which also is partially countered by the MT (simple matter of anticipating where the skulk will be, with the help of the MT)
Lerk = nerfed (no spikes, support role is just gas and umbra now, any actual attack is the suicidal close range bite)...it's only real strength is against groups of marines...IMO, it would serve best if it had both spikes and bite, and both types of clouds...remove the primal scream and voila...a decent support unit that can actually be in the background more effectively in several ways...
Fade = bad player = dead fade, good player = dead marines...which IMO sucks...reason for this would be how people use blink...certainly not a unit to engage marines who are grouped together unless the said group has non-upgraded LMG's...which is almost never the case by the time fades show up...
The only long-ranged offensive unit...only that the long-ranged weapon is totally worthless and it appears way too late anyway.
Onos = also pretty much worthless...a weak hit and run unit which can't even stand against one HMG without being seriously wounded or die...9 out of 10 times the HMG is fully upgraded by the time onis show up, so this is speaking as if HMG's and all weapons are maxed out...the top alien being which is supposed to be a challenge even for a group of armed marines is reduced to a sneaky stomp-devour-run unit instead of a fearful demolition menace...and an onos SHOULD cost 100 res...AND be worth every single resource of it...
Gorge = builder unit...no real comments about this alien, since it's ok...the offence chambers that it builds however is a different story...an offensive structure with a defensive role in mind which is totally worthless not placed in groups...it only serves it's purpose "to delay" marines if you have 3-4 of them...
On top of that, in general, khaara has a resource system which isn't effective at larger games...we all know how it works so no need to mention anything else about it...a respawn system which also blows simply cause it's too slow AND aliens have to regest their upgrades and lifeforms on top of that...
Now, the marines:
Marines have everything...ranged weapons, great resource system...the ability to survive perfectly with 0 restowers, perfect respawn system and on top of that they can use the emergency beacon...they lose all their weapons and items that they have recieved when they die, but they keep all upgrades, making even the basic LMG a useful tool....marines can use phase gates to move around the map in a flash, only (very minor) drawback is that these phasegates can be destroyed relatively easily...they have the ability to destroy buildings through walls...marines also have more powerful buildings, not to mention resource towers which are both very strong AND has the ability to defend itself with electricity. The cost for the electircity is average to high, but this cost is regained insanely fast anyway, as a restower becomes pretty much impervious against anything other than a fade (with patience) or onos...
The marines has the ability to choose several strategies: early MT (increased combat efficiency early on thus the ability to control the map easier, even if upgrades etc will be slightly late), lots of RT's that are electrified (RT rush...was common and VERY effective once...is used less for some reason now though), shotgun rush (rare but VERY nasty), siege strategy, or the standard strategy (get a few restowers, control a part of the map and simply tech up)
Now then:
What makes the aliens stand out? Certainly not much I can say...
Cloaking and stealth-tactics? MT counters 75% of that once it's researched...so no luck there unless the marines for some odd reason decides to get this upgrade later in the game...
Skulk parasiting? Barely a feature that makes the khaara stand out, but still worth mentioning since it can be important at times.
Powerful units/lifeforms? Heck no. Nothing which can withstand the marine firepower for 10 seconds anyway...
Upgrades? Well, the upgrade chambers themselves influencing the khaara players is indeed a noteable feature. The only near-equivalent that the marines have would be the Observatory. Upgrade structures that heal, boost energy and cloak is in general something which the marines don't have. And this is an ability that is VITAL for the khaara. However, the type of upgrade chambers are currently linked to the number of hives that the khaara have, thus this limits them severely in taking full advantage of the abilities that the chambers has during most of the game. However, hopefully this won't be the case soon, as people have really voiced out for unchaining the chambers, so...
Then there are the upgrades that a khaara can have...you all know what they are and what they do, basically evolutionary upgrades, some which are similar to the marine upgrades (cara, focus, SoF etc), some which are unique (silence, cloak etc)
Nothing wrong with it, initself but when a khaara dies, he is forced to re-evolve these upgrades, and in some cases (when the hive is attacked) this is simply not viable. As wished for by some others, the mere ability to devolve upgrades when alive and perhaps combined with being allowed to keep the latest upgrades you had on you when you died would allow for much needed flexibility. The ability to devolve and evolve new upgrades would be useful for higher level lifeforms while being allowed to keep any upgrades when you die, would increase the chances of successfully defending a hive which is under attack. And needless to say, chances for successfully defending a hive against a serious assault is anything but high at this time.
Well then, what else IS special about the aliens? What makes them stand out (apart from stealth tactics and chamber abilities which can't be fully exploited at the moment) when compared against the marines? What do they have that the marines don't have? They have a totally different style of playing, granted, but what prevents them for being granted abilities or ANYTHING which makes them stand out?
So once again...I ask you not to nerf the khaara any more...ever!
If anyone disagrees with any points mentioned, feel free to say so...
As of now, this is how it stands...a small summary on how the teams look like...feel free to disagree on any points tho:
Skulk = worthless mid and late game...only viable early game as an ambush/stalking unit...stalking out rambo marines or ambushing small groups of marines...assuming that the rines don't have MT then of course...It's only other advantage is it's speed (and leap), which also is partially countered by the MT (simple matter of anticipating where the skulk will be, with the help of the MT)
Lerk = nerfed (no spikes, support role is just gas and umbra now, any actual attack is the suicidal close range bite)...it's only real strength is against groups of marines...IMO, it would serve best if it had both spikes and bite, and both types of clouds...remove the primal scream and voila...a decent support unit that can actually be in the background more effectively in several ways...
Fade = bad player = dead fade, good player = dead marines...which IMO sucks...reason for this would be how people use blink...certainly not a unit to engage marines who are grouped together unless the said group has non-upgraded LMG's...which is almost never the case by the time fades show up...
The only long-ranged offensive unit...only that the long-ranged weapon is totally worthless and it appears way too late anyway.
Onos = also pretty much worthless...a weak hit and run unit which can't even stand against one HMG without being seriously wounded or die...9 out of 10 times the HMG is fully upgraded by the time onis show up, so this is speaking as if HMG's and all weapons are maxed out...the top alien being which is supposed to be a challenge even for a group of armed marines is reduced to a sneaky stomp-devour-run unit instead of a fearful demolition menace...and an onos SHOULD cost 100 res...AND be worth every single resource of it...
Gorge = builder unit...no real comments about this alien, since it's ok...the offence chambers that it builds however is a different story...an offensive structure with a defensive role in mind which is totally worthless not placed in groups...it only serves it's purpose "to delay" marines if you have 3-4 of them...
On top of that, in general, khaara has a resource system which isn't effective at larger games...we all know how it works so no need to mention anything else about it...a respawn system which also blows simply cause it's too slow AND aliens have to regest their upgrades and lifeforms on top of that...
Now, the marines:
Marines have everything...ranged weapons, great resource system...the ability to survive perfectly with 0 restowers, perfect respawn system and on top of that they can use the emergency beacon...they lose all their weapons and items that they have recieved when they die, but they keep all upgrades, making even the basic LMG a useful tool....marines can use phase gates to move around the map in a flash, only (very minor) drawback is that these phasegates can be destroyed relatively easily...they have the ability to destroy buildings through walls...marines also have more powerful buildings, not to mention resource towers which are both very strong AND has the ability to defend itself with electricity. The cost for the electircity is average to high, but this cost is regained insanely fast anyway, as a restower becomes pretty much impervious against anything other than a fade (with patience) or onos...
The marines has the ability to choose several strategies: early MT (increased combat efficiency early on thus the ability to control the map easier, even if upgrades etc will be slightly late), lots of RT's that are electrified (RT rush...was common and VERY effective once...is used less for some reason now though), shotgun rush (rare but VERY nasty), siege strategy, or the standard strategy (get a few restowers, control a part of the map and simply tech up)
Now then:
What makes the aliens stand out? Certainly not much I can say...
Cloaking and stealth-tactics? MT counters 75% of that once it's researched...so no luck there unless the marines for some odd reason decides to get this upgrade later in the game...
Skulk parasiting? Barely a feature that makes the khaara stand out, but still worth mentioning since it can be important at times.
Powerful units/lifeforms? Heck no. Nothing which can withstand the marine firepower for 10 seconds anyway...
Upgrades? Well, the upgrade chambers themselves influencing the khaara players is indeed a noteable feature. The only near-equivalent that the marines have would be the Observatory. Upgrade structures that heal, boost energy and cloak is in general something which the marines don't have. And this is an ability that is VITAL for the khaara. However, the type of upgrade chambers are currently linked to the number of hives that the khaara have, thus this limits them severely in taking full advantage of the abilities that the chambers has during most of the game. However, hopefully this won't be the case soon, as people have really voiced out for unchaining the chambers, so...
Then there are the upgrades that a khaara can have...you all know what they are and what they do, basically evolutionary upgrades, some which are similar to the marine upgrades (cara, focus, SoF etc), some which are unique (silence, cloak etc)
Nothing wrong with it, initself but when a khaara dies, he is forced to re-evolve these upgrades, and in some cases (when the hive is attacked) this is simply not viable. As wished for by some others, the mere ability to devolve upgrades when alive and perhaps combined with being allowed to keep the latest upgrades you had on you when you died would allow for much needed flexibility. The ability to devolve and evolve new upgrades would be useful for higher level lifeforms while being allowed to keep any upgrades when you die, would increase the chances of successfully defending a hive which is under attack. And needless to say, chances for successfully defending a hive against a serious assault is anything but high at this time.
Well then, what else IS special about the aliens? What makes them stand out (apart from stealth tactics and chamber abilities which can't be fully exploited at the moment) when compared against the marines? What do they have that the marines don't have? They have a totally different style of playing, granted, but what prevents them for being granted abilities or ANYTHING which makes them stand out?
So once again...I ask you not to nerf the khaara any more...ever!
If anyone disagrees with any points mentioned, feel free to say so...
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you have any idea how long ten seconds is in gametime?
Lookin forward to the replies ahead...
[OT] *Grabs popcorn and sits back to watch the show* <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/OT]
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Do you have any idea how long ten seconds is in gametime? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
About the time it takes for any vanilla life form to reach a dodging marine at the end of a long hallway?
random guessed times to reach a marine at the end of a hallway wich may or may not exist:
-Skulk 5-7 seconds (less if said skulk can bunnyhop well.) but skulks go down much faster. they might get a 1 second window to kill the marine if they are sneaky about it.
-lerk 4-5 seconds? (i really don't know, havent lerk'd much since the new flight system.) but! the new flight system more or less forces your average lerk to fly strait at the marine at eye level.
-fade; as stated in the first post - a good fade will blink across, and that's one dead marine. but everyone else..... if they try to blink-swipe.... most likely they will get caught on corners, or reach the marine and use up his 10 sec switching to swipe, or both. if they just run up to the marine? 10 secs at best?
-onos, not only are they about the sise of a barn's broad side, but they naturally move about as quickly. this one is a toss up. 1v1? the marine will lose i admit... but in any large battle, bullets tend to gravitate to the onos more than any other life form.
-gorge; ok, so they likely won't be running down said hallway, and honestly, I've been killing vanilla marines as groge recently.
Although, I might argue one point about the alien problem; they can win often enough, the only problem is that when the aiens start pushing the marines down their slope, the marines can dig in their heals and push back. but the alien's slope is no longer just slippery, time has eroded it away to the point that it's a cliff, the marines only need to get one good shove in, and the aliens are falling to their doom
Although, I might argue one point about the alien problem; they can win often enough, the only problem is that when the aiens start pushing the marines down their slope, the marines can dig in their heals and push back. but the alien's slope is no longer just slippery, time has eroded it away to the point that it's a cliff, the marines only need to get one good shove in, and the aliens are falling to their doom <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
slope? <b><i><u>What slope?</u></i></b> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd always thought that all marines had were a few steps, and since when did aliens have a slope to begin with? Most of the time all they have are a few pieces of floating space rock coated with enough KY Jelly to lube up an entire blue film. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If...the...competant...marines...let...the...skulks...get...that...close!
In NS, carapace isn't an option for the Onos since he needs regen's massive healing power. Trust me, I've been stuck with the new carapace as an Onos, and it isn't a good combination.
In Combat, HMGs do godly damage to a Cara/Regen to the Onos anyways. The extra carapace is a very miniscule amount of protection when faced to the godliness of the HMG.
Problem? HMG. Solution? Half damage to Onos, ala structures, since the Onos is quite large enough to be a structure anyways. In the current state as an Onos, the HMG feels like it does double damage.
In NS, carapace isn't an option for the Onos since he needs regen's massive healing power. Trust me, I've been stuck with the new carapace as an Onos, and it isn't a good combination.
In Combat, HMGs do godly damage to a Cara/Regen to the Onos anyways. The extra carapace is a very miniscule amount of protection when faced to the godliness of the HMG.
Problem? HMG. Solution? Half damage to Onos, ala structures, since the Onos is quite large enough to be a structure anyways. In the current state as an Onos, the HMG feels like it does double damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah what's an extra 600 dmg anyways
Fades - need to have the damage in Acid rocket incresed (right now spit does more damage and has a higer rate of fire than acid rocket)
onos - the effect of stomp has to last longer
offence chambers - the spikes have to fly out faster at the target, the range of OC fire should be increased
Jet packs need to be toned down a little
<u>skulks</u> - they are fine... later during the game - dont take on rines head on, hit their base and rts - not that hard of a concept
<u>gorges </u>- omg spit is awesome... if your a gorge
<u>lerks </u>- they are perfectly fine until ha comes along.. thats when you shouldnt attack.. its called umbra... and if its 1 hive... take out the lights.. and if they are all heavies... eep
<u>fade </u>- imo they are perfectly fine. just learn to use them. we've all played games where an experienced fade takes out both hive lockdowns, takes out advanced armory, messes up the obs, etc etc... just acid rocket needs to be removed (b6 o boy o boy)
<u>onos</u> - you are not a meat shield. you are a big pig... you will die so dont think you are invincible... but they are affective and the best distractions ever...
so one should assume that the problem with alien losses is the marine strengths... Just mild things could change the outcome - as in price changes... gl should not be 15... 18 at least....
who knows? give the devs credit
Seriously I've seen games where 2 fades killed the entire marine team, they were really good fades mind you, but still 12 marines should not lose to 2 fades. (This was beta 4a btw.) Beta 5 comes along and now fades are no longer as 1337 as they were before, boo hoo. Fades are still overpowered in the right hands.
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> with extra carapace armor. I usually did always go regen as well, but now that extra 350 armor does seem to be rather nice about now. The only thing I think the onos should have then is a metabolize like ability. Fades with cara can self heal, why can't an onos which is supposed to be a higher lifeform? And if you have good gorges on your team going cara isnt to bad, because you can get healed, and hopefully the gorge will make a healing station.
<!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> no longer have spike because Spike + Focus = Closest thing to a sniper gun this game has, and if anything Marines should get the sniper gun (and flame thrower but thats for another topic another day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Lets see the only really annoying 5a change that I've seen is weakening the fades, but that is actaully a good thing for the long run of the game. Oni were always meant to be a meat shield and a HA eater. Seriosly there have been too many countless occansions where a group of marines would shoot at me with HMGs and get killed by skulks biting their knee caps. Oni have such a massive threat level to most people that they complety ignore anything else, such as the before mentioned skulks, fades killing them, or my favorite dieing from Lerk Gas.
Fades were never meant to be a long range offensive unit. I think they should just take Acid Rocket away and give some other melee combat realted ability.
Lerks are never good as an offensive unit late game, unless the Marines are determined to use Jet Packs. Lerks > Jpers. All it takes is two bites from a focused lerk to kill a Jper. Fly in get a bite, fly out heal, rinse and reapeat, voola a dead Jper. And don't give me your excuses otherwise. If you were a good lerk (Celerity, Carapace, Focus) you wouldn't die unless you were either Shot Gunned point blank, or were not very good as a lerk.
And Oni pwn Turret Farms, wow 1 Turret does 1 Point of armor Damage to an Onos every what 2 seconds? Worry more about Electired Rts than turrets as an Onos. Turrets are made to be a distraction and only be able to kill lerks, and skulks. At anything else they are just pure lame.
Just my 2 cents.
The dropping of an Obs + getting MT right away is one of the marine tactics I've mentioned. Marines use this to maximize their expanditure and map-control early on. Don't also forget that while they've used all their resources on Obs+MT, they get compensated by RFK's which will be twice as easy to accomplish. And upgrades doesn't matter for the first couple of minutes since the khaara team certainly won't have 3 upgrade chambers so soon...
As for the fades, the whole skill-level issue is also a problem. I did say that fades could be lethal in the hands of good khaara players, but let's face it. The fade would then be the only real asset for the khaara team ASSUMING that they have a fade expert playing on their side. I've got no idea how this should be achieved but I'd prefer to see a fade which isn't so lethal in the hands of a good player, but isn't worthless either in the hands of a lesser skilled player. Obviously, SOME skill should play a part, but not in a way like in CS, where one pro player can determine the outcome for the entire team/game...
Anyway, it's quite obvious that there are 2 sides...those who agree and those who disagree...
Oh...and yes, Cara is kinda useless, even on higher lifeforms...a cara Onos gets to live maybe 3-4 seconds longer with it...a fade, not even that...I am pretty sure that there are people here who've tried to take on a marine with a SG as a fade with cara only to be gunned down after 3 or so shots (mind, not even the best players can always succeed with their attacks <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
The cara upgrade for the onos is useless, since it has lots of armor left when it dies.
But several skilled players use carapace for the fade, specially at hive 2. (Meta, more heal locations) Carapace is what makes the difference between a dead fade and a living fade against shotguns. It gives you resistance to 1-2 more shots, so you can get away.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I rekon skulks could be a tiny bit faster as well, maybe another 10%-20%. They need some buffing up at 2nd hive i rekon more than the few hit-point increase they get. I know leap is great but there is just some gulf between what is needed and what they provide in terms of beening able to take the hits.
Lorks seem to be the redundant class imo. They used to be sooo good with old umbra and spike, but now although umbra is still ok I never see any 1 using it to support teamates (if for no other reason than nobody lerks any more). I dont think they are value for money, considering 20 res more gets u a fade and that is infinitely better in the right hands imo.
Onos are an odd class... at 1 hive they a 75 res horned coffin. Its funny that a fade is heaps better in this situation. At 2 hives the become ok assuming u have MC & DC.
Fades are just right for me cause I have played NS alot and can use them. Like others have mentioned though they dead meat in the hands of the in-experienced. There is no middle ground with them. If you only have 1 hive and they are farming on its door step with lvl 2 or greater guns the fade is pretty useless though.
The biggest issue I have with NS is the 'fact' that end-game is decided in the first 5 min (or there abouts) and the game will drag on for a further 5 - 10 min till one team is fully dead (if the losing side hasnt mass f4'ed already). Couple this with the 'fact' that if you are a losing alien side u are stuck at 1 hive plus its upgrade chamber while the marines get ever more powerful as time goes by. Its like "you are already beaten by marines with no upgrades, see if you can come back from a situation where they own all the res and are even stronger than before"
It would be nice to have spikes back on the lerk, I remember flayra mentioning a while back that they considered combining spore and umbra so spikes could come back, I think that would be l33t. But Im assuming since that still hasn't happened it was decided to be overpowered <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I rekon skulks could be a tiny bit faster as well, maybe another 10%-20%. They need some buffing up at 2nd hive i rekon more than the few hit-point increase they get. I know leap is great but there is just some gulf between what is needed and what they provide in terms of beening able to take the hits. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, no I think you have it backwards. Skulks are very weak at the beginning of the game, and the 2nd hive is their only chance because of leap. The problem is if a fade doesn't show up at 4-5 minutes, the skulks have a really tough time and if the 2nd hive never comes, they are screwed and it's hard to fight back. The 2nd hive gives a tremendous leap (yes a pun) in ability for skulks and makes them a lot more useful. I don't think they need buffed at the 2nd hive.
I think skulks need a buff so that they can manage the early game better before a fade shows up, and the fade won't decide if the aliens are going to lose or not.
The lerk is tougher than the skulk, but it is too expensive for people to lerk instead of saving for fade. The skulk needs to be balanced so it fills the gap.
I agree with you in general, but aliens absolutely need hive1 Spores... Spore is by far the best hive1 alien weapon and is far better than spikes...
Plus, they are an absolute pain to HA, two lerks constantly spiking will have the welder out at all times which gives skulks a much easier time getting to the HA.
How is dealing 16 damage (that's 8 armor to a heavy, or 7 armor rather and 1 hp every like 7 hits) any threat to a heavy? Darn, I've been hit 5 times! It's like an OC shot me twice, what'll I do