America's Border With Mexico.
reasa
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">an open or shut case?</div> I don't know how many of you actually managed to stop laughing at this week's TIME magazine cover and actually managed to read the article <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> , but it was certainly an eye opener and gave me a bit more information on things I already knew a little bit about.
The picture it paints is that Mexicans are crossing the border in large numbers daily at their will, with our out gunned and drastically undermanned border patrol being unable to do anything about it. Property owners are very distressed as the illegals destroy property, cut fences which release cattle, ravage farms, and litter garbage and...other things on their property.
It tells you the story of a hospital that is on verge of closure because it can't afford to keep treating illegals that get hurt crossing the border, but they keep on coming in. The government isn't giving them any money and it's the only hospital in that town, I don't think it's going to last long.
It mentions that Mexicans smugglers have been known to be heavily armed and have attacked the border patrol on a number of occasions. That portion of the article ends on an ominous note about everyone in the town owning a gun, even the nurses in the hospital, and how everyone is near the breaking point. Personally I can't blame them.
Then they talk about the companies who purposely lower pay on jobs that Americans could very well be doing because the can literally "order" Mexicans from smugglers in groups by the hundreds to work for them. That disgusted me.
The article is a real eye opener if you haven?t kept up on what?s going on down there, and hopefully it will inform allot of people.
So what do you guys think about all this?
The picture it paints is that Mexicans are crossing the border in large numbers daily at their will, with our out gunned and drastically undermanned border patrol being unable to do anything about it. Property owners are very distressed as the illegals destroy property, cut fences which release cattle, ravage farms, and litter garbage and...other things on their property.
It tells you the story of a hospital that is on verge of closure because it can't afford to keep treating illegals that get hurt crossing the border, but they keep on coming in. The government isn't giving them any money and it's the only hospital in that town, I don't think it's going to last long.
It mentions that Mexicans smugglers have been known to be heavily armed and have attacked the border patrol on a number of occasions. That portion of the article ends on an ominous note about everyone in the town owning a gun, even the nurses in the hospital, and how everyone is near the breaking point. Personally I can't blame them.
Then they talk about the companies who purposely lower pay on jobs that Americans could very well be doing because the can literally "order" Mexicans from smugglers in groups by the hundreds to work for them. That disgusted me.
The article is a real eye opener if you haven?t kept up on what?s going on down there, and hopefully it will inform allot of people.
So what do you guys think about all this?
Comments
1.) Improve and Increase our Border Patrol.
2.) Improve relations with Mexico in order to help them weed out corruption in government while helping them improve their economy.
It may take a long time, but if we can slow the flow of illegals while working with Mexico to slowly lift their economy, the Border will be a much more secure place.
or the companies would just build their factories in mexico <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
o m f g
o m f g <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
saw it coming. It solves the problem doesn't it?
edit: Perhaps you misunderstood what i typed... I'll edit my post.
It does not look good if we order a Kill on Sight for these immigrants.
It'll eventually work itself out, once Mexico's economy improves, but for the moment, until things get out of hand, it's just going to have to be put up with.
I'm a person who's not affected by it, but say in the case of those hospitals, have an order that you can only treat legal citizens and hope for the best. There might be some complications, and things might get ugly, but there really isn't another way.
Hey, it's cheap labor, and they are the people who are supplying it. Look at it from the corporate standpoint. We have a cheap labor source, sure, some Americans might get shafted, but they either get some skills and get a non hard-labor job, or starve. There are many government programs that offer help to those who have an incomplete education or just leech off welfare until conditions improve.
Heartless? Yes. But any other suggestion is not realistic.
It does not look good if we order a Kill on Sight for these immigrants.
It'll eventually work itself out, once Mexico's economy improves, but for the moment, until things get out of hand, it's just going to have to be put up with.
I'm a person who's not affected by it, but say in the case of those hospitals, have an order that you can only treat legal citizens and hope for the best. There might be some complications, and things might get ugly, but there really isn't another way.
Hey, it's cheap labor, and they are the people who are supplying it. Look at it from the corporate standpoint. We have a cheap labor source, sure, some Americans might get shafted, but they either get some skills and get a non hard-labor job, or starve. There are many government programs that offer help to those who have an incomplete education or just leech off welfare until conditions improve.
Heartless? Yes. But any other suggestion is not realistic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
about as heartless as my idea. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hmm. I think I'd rather shoot the illegals <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mexico should not use the existence of the United States as a reason not to pull its **** together as a government.
Give me a solution that:
A. Does not hurt the US's image internationally.
B. Does not become a new drain on our already strained budget.
C. Is practical and easy to implement.
I extend my condolences to you, I really do. But seriously, you know what those Mexicans want? A lesser than minimum wage job so they can go back to Mexico and present it as a bridepiece so they can marry somebody.
That's it.
Mexico's economy has to improve, but that's a long term goal.
Your parents might have had to battle for 6 years to get a green card, but in 95% of those cases, those people are well off, within the middle class of the US. Even then, you have a computer, or access to one, so either your own assets are acceptable, or your community's assets are.
These people are being paid 1.50 an hour. If they want to jump the border and provide us with cheap labor, sure, why not?
There's your answer. It would completely destroy the only reason companies hire illegals. Creating factories out of country to work around this law would just cost them more money.
Do you know what capitalism is, BloodySloth?
It's a free market economy with little to no government control whatsoever. As long as certain companies meet certain qualifications, they can do whatever the fark they want.
Going by your reasoning, we should completely eliminate NAFTA. And we should also put in Ross Perot as president so he can tax all foreign made goods by 300% so we'll never have any competition whatsoever. Then we can all make artificial jobs paying artificial money and we'll wind up like Scotland, trying to keep everybody employed while trying to find a way out of the mess we've created by....immigrating to a country like the USA!
Sorry, no thanks. You fail at economics.
1.) Improve and Increase our Border Patrol.
2.) Improve relations with Mexico in order to help them weed out corruption in government while helping them improve their economy.
It may take a long time, but if we can slow the flow of illegals while working with Mexico to slowly lift their economy, the Border will be a much more secure place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with the second, but not the first.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would also suggest enforcing a wage minimum for anyone, illegal or not. Not that that should be taken to mean you are legitimising their illegal entry, but it would help stop the exploitation of illegals working for pittance.
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...OMG I agree with Marine AND illuminex? I gotta go take a shower... feel.. so.. dirty.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> minimum wage laws won't work, because illegal immigrants (for the most part) are undocumented.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So instead of patrolling the borders, why not watch companies more closely to make sure that they pay all their imployees a proper wage?
Red letter day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Quick! someone make a post about homosexuality, we need a good dose of the former hostility to return things to normal around here!
You'd be better off thinking in terms of Wall. A Great Big Wall - viewable from space and 100% Mongol proof, unless attacked.... uh I mean constantly patrolled wall <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I really don't think the American solution to a major problem should be "lets leave it alone and wait for Mexico's economy to get better" OK you wait for Mexico's economy to get better...hope you don't lose your job waiting that long.
Sure right now it's just the menial jobs that these guys are used for, but overtime if nothing is done to stop it corporations will start using illegals for more and more jobs.
I have seen Mr. Fox's solution to Mexico's economic problems, a fully open, non-policed border with Mexico. They essentially want to be able to have complete access to our country, to our jobs, to our system, and use it to fix their country...free of charge. The only people who lose in this are Americans. Something has to be done, and if it involves violence, or a "wall" of some sort or shutting down the damn border altogether, I will support it fully.
No one has even touched on how easy it would be for terrorists to cross the border here, hell they could probably set up camps and train the Mexican's, I really can't see why the border is open, if we can't do it right, why do it at all?
simply put, that would be ridiculously inefficient. Patrolling 2000 miles of border, methinks, is easier than overseeing all the agricultural and service industry companies.
As much as i'd like to see them held accountable, i'm thinking it's just not feasible without some sort of other incentive...tax breaks for not hiring illegal immigrants? (lol?)
Thats a good idea, but why not take it in a more effective direction? Let people who lost their jobs because their company payed illegal imigrants an illegal wage publically stone their CEO to death. That way, when a big wig is thinking "we could save lots of money by hiring illegal imigrants and paying them less" he is also thinking "but is it worth the risk of a painfull untimely death?"
Seriously though some form of punishment would make the best incentive, something harsh that places responsibility on some individual, rather than the company as a whole. Preferably someone higher up.
Also, going down the 101 or the 5 to San Diego, you literally have signs on the side of the roads of a family of Mexicans running across the freeway, because that's what they do. Then you cream them across 12 lanes and across about 75 feet of asphalt. (They're nearly as amusing as the signs that warn you to watch out for crossing tanks)
PS: Marine, the Great Wall isn't visible from space <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> (Unless you're magnifying. But that's cheating)
EDIT: Yarr.
Look, without the Mexicans as a cheap labor source, we have the small farmers going broke, or they'll be forced to raise their prices, and won't be able to compete with the produce we import from Chile.
For business, it's the same thing. We make them work in low-skill, entirely laborious jobs for very little, that helps cut costs, and it allows more competition because a significant part of their budget is lowered.
Look, you know what Americans are losing out on this one? Americans who have no skills whatsoever. I'm not sure most Americans want to work for minimum wage in fastfood with no future whatsoever. For the citizens who do have an education and can do something other than a menial job, it directly benefits them for cheaper prices on commodities.
Think about their side. How would you feel if:
1) No jobs available in your country.
2) Your family is starving.
3) You can't possibly immigrate anywhere, legally
4) (with your law) You can't possibly immigrate anywhere, illegally.
So what you're doing it basically forcing them to take a chance of death, for a better future. Hmm... sounds a bit like immigration to North America centuries ago (Chinese, Indians, African-Americans)
Bad idea. Help the economy in Mexico, the need for immigration into US will decrease.
PS I know I made "help the economy" sound easy. It's not... but it'll be worth it. k? Share your money <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Think about their side. How would you feel if:
1) No jobs available in your country.
2) Your family is starving.
3) You can't possibly immigrate anywhere, legally
4) (with your law) You can't possibly immigrate anywhere, illegally.
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1.) p***ed off at my s***y government.
2.) p***ed off at my s***y government.
3.) whats to stop them from moving south into south america? I'll just assume they don't have the funds to go across sea.
4.) How would i feel? How about i tell you what i would feel like doing... starting a revolution and making a government that can feed its people! Where there is a will there is a way... and i don't see much effort coming out of the mexican government.
Trev, I'm seriously requesting that you either stop posting in this forum or at least have some understanding of the topic being discussed before posting about it. Do you really think the situation in S. America is any better? Of course they can't afford to cross the sea, they can barely create make-shift boats in crossing the Gulf of Mexico.
1.) p***ed off at my s***y government.
2.) p***ed off at my s***y government.
3.) whats to stop them from moving south into south america? I'll just assume they don't have the funds to go across sea.
4.) How would i feel? How about i tell you what i would feel like doing... starting a revolution and making a government that can feed its people! Where there is a will there is a way... and i don't see much effort coming out of the mexican government.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"There is a classic charity tag line that goes something like give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you help feed him for a lifetime. This is incredibly patronizing, as if starving people are surrounded by food they are too stupid to catch. The reality is that if you teach that man how to fish in two generations time there will be a lot more starving people in that same village and no fish."
You make it sound like that the government is doing a crappy job of managing its constituents. Why don't you <span style='color:red'>be nice.</span> realize that people outside the US and Western Europe have massive, hard-to-correct problems that they can't be blamed for?