<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Sep 22 2004, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Sep 22 2004, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+Sep 22 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Sep 22 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does that make any difference? It takes a little longer to get jps than it does fades, about 5-6 minute mark for jps vs about 4:30-5 for fades. How is the fade split between before and after, where as the jp is not? What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Individual res vs team shared res. (Not to mention cost and evolve vs. equip time)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So that means simply because marines have a shared pool, and alien resources are individual, that marines should be able to reequip with ease and almost no loss? Something still doesn't seem right with that, in any game, if you have an upgrade and loose it you should at least take some kind of hit from it. Btw, in a team based game we still tell others what to do, ill drop a node, you fade etc, pool vs individual doesn't make that much of a difference in play from what I've seen in almost 2 years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->about 5-6 minute mark for jps<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side.
Perhaps I should have quoted only this part: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If one of the aliens goes fade and dies to some fluke, he's not going fade for another long while. If a marine gets a JP and dies to some fluke, the comm can just give him another. Even if the entire marine team put together has only 40 res, the commander can give out 1 JP+Shotty. If the entire alien team together has only 40 res, they can ... evolve carapace as skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 21 2004, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 21 2004, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Frame rate is really important when killing JP's, so you can see the little blue trails they leave behind <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh. That... uhh.. sucks.
I dislike games where skill is dependant on hardware. Ah well, at least I have an excuse now I guess.
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pls watch 1 scrim or match from dn, even vs good clans like exigent or terror, they have the jp rush down to an easy system and can make 6 minutes with ease. Dn vs cri is a perfect example of this situation. One team just keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp, they keep dieing, but after 40 minutes the other team just gives up.
you forget taht it takes an alien 2-4 hits to kill a marine, yet it takes a marine upwards of 10 to kill an alien. So of course the alien structures need to be weaker than the marine ones.
There is no counter. There is a counter. all depend on the ppl omg. one person can kill a few jps in hive fast, and the other cant. One jp can outrun/manouver a fade and the onther cant.
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pls watch 1 scrim or match from dn, even vs good clans like exigent or terror, they have the jp rush down to an easy system and can make 6 minutes with ease. Dn vs cri is a perfect example of this situation. One team just keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp, they keep dieing, but after 40 minutes the other team just gives up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yumosis i dont know the clans you speak of verywell but if they have the res to continually churn out jps vs 2 hive aliens then the aliens suck. I mean really if the fades are doing their job and harrasing marine spawn and keeping pgs from hives skulks should be able to munch a few nodes. As for your comment on marines avoiding you do US marines now come with cloaking devices or something? On most maps (ie. veil tanith ecli) a fade can cover the entire map in aproximately 20seconds (with hive2) with 2 fades they only have to cover half of that. If marines have more than 3-4 nodes skulks are doing a bad job. Fades should be trying to hold marines as close to their spawn as possible while skulks and gorges destroy nodes etc.
While i stand by what i have said there i have nothing against dropping marine res down 500 hp also i do feel that it takes a long time to munch nodes w/o adren.
Um, the "clans" I speak of <a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=2224' target='_blank'>http://www.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=2224</a> Btw, you CAN avoid other players, it's not hard lol
Or you could just lower the cost of the jp slightly and neuter its fuel. I've seen too many decent jps lift off the ground and land in the hive area win MAYBE 2-3 intermittent landfalls. I always imagined the JP more as a mobility enhancement more than a personal jet plane. With JP increase movement speed by 30% and provide them with prolonged, controllable jumps that can go high into the air. None of this flying around nigh indefintely hogwash we see nowadays though, but that's another topic for another day.
The ability to counter JP should NOT be left entirely in the hands of personal skill... that skill is too dispersed among the community to depend upon. Instead there should exist a strategy (read class ability) that effectively counters any advantages a JP might grant. Such things as allowing spores to clog the flow lines of the JP rendering its output instantly decreased (usually resulting in the marine falling to the ground as well as reducing his ability to get back in the air for any prolonged amount of time for a short time after being in a spore cloud).
In this case, the Lerk would truly be the counter for JPs... not because you'd necessarily need to be skilled enough to bite him in mid flight, but because one of your abilities would render his advantages useless when applied appropriately... and well killing a grounded JPer is childsplay compared to a mid-flight JPer. The lerk wouldn't even have to be the one to get the kill... decent teamwork would pretty much ensure that a hungry set of jaws would be awaiting that JP on the ground.
<!--QuoteBegin-todd10000+Sep 27 2004, 12:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd10000 @ Sep 27 2004, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> good way to counter jps. make OC's hitscan. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> does that mean they always hit? like with 1.04 lerk spikes?
Wait for the jetpack to run out of fuel the kill them. I've eaten plenty of JPs out of the air as onos <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I love how everyone who is explaining in real game terms tend to see there is very little to counter the JPers with, and everyone that is just spouting off the on paper answers don't see such a thing.
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pls watch 1 scrim or match from dn, even vs good clans like exigent or terror, they have the jp rush down to an easy system and can make 6 minutes with ease. Dn vs cri is a perfect example of this situation. One team just keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp, they keep dieing, but after 40 minutes the other team just gives up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yumosis i dont know the clans you speak of verywell but if they have the res to continually churn out jps vs 2 hive aliens then the aliens suck. I mean really if the fades are doing their job and harrasing marine spawn and keeping pgs from hives skulks should be able to munch a few nodes. As for your comment on marines avoiding you do US marines now come with cloaking devices or something? On most maps (ie. veil tanith ecli) a fade can cover the entire map in aproximately 20seconds (with hive2) with 2 fades they only have to cover half of that. If marines have more than 3-4 nodes skulks are doing a bad job. Fades should be trying to hold marines as close to their spawn as possible while skulks and gorges destroy nodes etc.
While i stand by what i have said there i have nothing against dropping marine res down 500 hp also i do feel that it takes a long time to munch nodes w/o adren. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i'm in one of them and i can tell you that after playing dn on origin i can say that jetpacks are a **** to counter against competent teams...they had one guy covering all of the nodes on an entire half of the map by himself....a skulk trying to tear down res is useless against a jp hmg...i understand that we "shouldn't have let them get jps to begin with" but that isn't really the argument in this topic so don't stray that way
With the current Lerk Flight, you can no longer flight strafe and block an incoming JP, you need to turn and hit jump rapidly to hope to block in time and bite. But my counter to JP?
Spikes.
It's VERY hard to bite the JP with the new flight model of the JP. Spikes WOULD have been the perfect counter to these JPs(Aim at JP while it goes and attacks hive, it dies. My favorite way to kill JPs in 2.0). If an option to evolve into lerk appeared to allow evolving with spikes or evolving with bite(just another submenu), then everyone is happy with the Lerk, and the JPs die. Everybody would win!
But overall, spikes was the JP counter, in my opinion.
If Jps were overpowered you would not see HA in games at all. Spikes remove lots of skill from lerk play, and they are certainly not the counter to JPs. Spores remove armour, then one or two bites for the kill.
The BIGGEST mistake lerks (and fades to a degree,) is trying to hit in every encounter. If you don't have the element of surprise, the first sweep should just be to get the target to waste some ammo before you loop round and plant the first bite. If you have 0 armour at this stage you heal. Repeat.
:\ Umbra helps too if you have 2 hives, but that really does not need to be said.
Admittedly it's not EASY to take down a JP, but then again, it shouldn't be. Loose the mentality of "They have upgrade X, so we need the counter-upgrade Y"
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited October 2004
At one hive there really isn't much of a direct counter against top tier marine tech. Big shock.
Should an LMG equipped marine be able to solo an Onos? No, that would be stupid. But yet, if a marine team with the most costly upgrade in the game takes your hive down, that's unfair? Please explain your logic.
Now if you are complaining that marines reach the tech too easily, then fair enough. I agree with that. But that isn't what this thread purports to be about.
I'm really reigning in my desire to make comments about ill thought out posts here.
Comments
Individual res vs team shared res.
(Not to mention cost and evolve vs. equip time)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that means simply because marines have a shared pool, and alien resources are individual, that marines should be able to reequip with ease and almost no loss? Something still doesn't seem right with that, in any game, if you have an upgrade and loose it you should at least take some kind of hit from it. Btw, in a team based game we still tell others what to do, ill drop a node, you fade etc, pool vs individual doesn't make that much of a difference in play from what I've seen in almost 2 years.
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What makes marines so special the can die and not get hurt from it? But, if you die as fade, it's gg you don't get another try<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If one of the aliens goes fade and dies to some fluke, he's not going fade for another long while. If a marine gets a JP and dies to some fluke, the comm can just give him another. Even if the entire marine team put together has only 40 res, the commander can give out 1 JP+Shotty. If the entire alien team together has only 40 res, they can ... evolve carapace as skulks.
Oh.
That... uhh.. sucks.
I dislike games where skill is dependant on hardware.
Ah well, at least I have an excuse now I guess.
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pls watch 1 scrim or match from dn, even vs good clans like exigent or terror, they have the jp rush down to an easy system and can make 6 minutes with ease. Dn vs cri is a perfect example of this situation. One team just keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp, they keep dieing, but after 40 minutes the other team just gives up.
Wasnt this a discussion on jps ?
..lock thread now plz
Win.
..lock thread now plz<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot "FPS" apparantly.
Lock FPS first, then thread.
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pls watch 1 scrim or match from dn, even vs good clans like exigent or terror, they have the jp rush down to an easy system and can make 6 minutes with ease. Dn vs cri is a perfect example of this situation. One team just keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp, they keep dieing, but after 40 minutes the other team just gives up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yumosis i dont know the clans you speak of verywell but if they have the res to continually churn out jps vs 2 hive aliens then the aliens suck. I mean really if the fades are doing their job and harrasing marine spawn and keeping pgs from hives skulks should be able to munch a few nodes. As for your comment on marines avoiding you do US marines now come with cloaking devices or something? On most maps (ie. veil tanith ecli) a fade can cover the entire map in aproximately 20seconds (with hive2) with 2 fades they only have to cover half of that. If marines have more than 3-4 nodes skulks are doing a bad job. Fades should be trying to hold marines as close to their spawn as possible while skulks and gorges destroy nodes etc.
While i stand by what i have said there i have nothing against dropping marine res down 500 hp also i do feel that it takes a long time to munch nodes w/o adren.
Btw, you CAN avoid other players, it's not hard lol
/agree
The ability to counter JP should NOT be left entirely in the hands of personal skill... that skill is too dispersed among the community to depend upon. Instead there should exist a strategy (read class ability) that effectively counters any advantages a JP might grant. Such things as allowing spores to clog the flow lines of the JP rendering its output instantly decreased (usually resulting in the marine falling to the ground as well as reducing his ability to get back in the air for any prolonged amount of time for a short time after being in a spore cloud).
In this case, the Lerk would truly be the counter for JPs... not because you'd necessarily need to be skilled enough to bite him in mid flight, but because one of your abilities would render his advantages useless when applied appropriately... and well killing a grounded JPer is childsplay compared to a mid-flight JPer. The lerk wouldn't even have to be the one to get the kill... decent teamwork would pretty much ensure that a hungry set of jaws would be awaiting that JP on the ground.
does that mean they always hit? like with 1.04 lerk spikes?
does that mean they always hit? like with 1.04 lerk spikes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes it does
5-6 minutes is very early for jetpacks unless the marines have been totally slaughtering the aliens.
JP's have their drawbacks. Yes, in big rooms, they are deadly speedy killing machines. But on their way to the big open hive rooms theyll likely have to pass through a few hallways with low ceilings. THATS where you skulk rush them. Sure, if youve only got skulks, you may still lose but with a fade and a lerk you can cause serious damage because they just cant get away fast enough.
Though i will agree, JP's are powerful as a desperation tactic I sent one man into ventilation on ns_hera and he solo'd the hive. We won thanks to that. But he was very good, and if 2 hive aliens cant take down one JP'er its due to poor teamwork and noobishness on the alien side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pls watch 1 scrim or match from dn, even vs good clans like exigent or terror, they have the jp rush down to an easy system and can make 6 minutes with ease. Dn vs cri is a perfect example of this situation. One team just keep pumping out jp, after jp, after jp, after jp, they keep dieing, but after 40 minutes the other team just gives up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yumosis i dont know the clans you speak of verywell but if they have the res to continually churn out jps vs 2 hive aliens then the aliens suck. I mean really if the fades are doing their job and harrasing marine spawn and keeping pgs from hives skulks should be able to munch a few nodes. As for your comment on marines avoiding you do US marines now come with cloaking devices or something? On most maps (ie. veil tanith ecli) a fade can cover the entire map in aproximately 20seconds (with hive2) with 2 fades they only have to cover half of that. If marines have more than 3-4 nodes skulks are doing a bad job. Fades should be trying to hold marines as close to their spawn as possible while skulks and gorges destroy nodes etc.
While i stand by what i have said there i have nothing against dropping marine res down 500 hp also i do feel that it takes a long time to munch nodes w/o adren. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm in one of them and i can tell you that after playing dn on origin i can say that jetpacks are a **** to counter against competent teams...they had one guy covering all of the nodes on an entire half of the map by himself....a skulk trying to tear down res is useless against a jp hmg...i understand that we "shouldn't have let them get jps to begin with" but that isn't really the argument in this topic so don't stray that way
With the current Lerk Flight, you can no longer flight strafe and block an incoming JP, you need to turn and hit jump rapidly to hope to block in time and bite. But my counter to JP?
Spikes.
It's VERY hard to bite the JP with the new flight model of the JP. Spikes WOULD have been the perfect counter to these JPs(Aim at JP while it goes and attacks hive, it dies. My favorite way to kill JPs in 2.0). If an option to evolve into lerk appeared to allow evolving with spikes or evolving with bite(just another submenu), then everyone is happy with the Lerk, and the JPs die. Everybody would win!
But overall, spikes was the JP counter, in my opinion.
If Jps were overpowered you would not see HA in games at all. Spikes remove lots of skill from lerk play, and they are certainly not the counter to JPs. Spores remove armour, then one or two bites for the kill.
The BIGGEST mistake lerks (and fades to a degree,) is trying to hit in every encounter. If you don't have the element of surprise, the first sweep should just be to get the target to waste some ammo before you loop round and plant the first bite. If you have 0 armour at this stage you heal. Repeat.
:\
Umbra helps too if you have 2 hives, but that really does not need to be said.
Admittedly it's not EASY to take down a JP, but then again, it shouldn't be. Loose the mentality of "They have upgrade X, so we need the counter-upgrade Y"
Should an LMG equipped marine be able to solo an Onos? No, that would be stupid. But yet, if a marine team with the most costly upgrade in the game takes your hive down, that's unfair? Please explain your logic.
Now if you are complaining that marines reach the tech too easily, then fair enough. I agree with that. But that isn't what this thread purports to be about.
I'm really reigning in my desire to make comments about ill thought out posts here.