Rate Cheating?
Emanon
Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Is this becoming a problem?</div> I have noticed alot of people been coming onto GPs servers with cl_cmdrates of 5 and 10. This becomes a problem because they begin to teleport around the screen but yet they see no lag. Now Im not sure if its intentional or if they just dont know better. One said they lowered it so that the ping on their netgraph would be between 0-20ms. I had to convince him that his True ping was that on the scoreboard.
Can their be an announcement by NS team that goes into detail what each setting does(rate, cl_cmdrate and cl_updaterate) and recommend settings for different connection types.
This is becoming an increasing problem as I usually have to teach/kick 5-10 people a day for this.
Also It would be wonderfull if serverops could have control over this variable aswell, like sv_minrate.............
Can their be an announcement by NS team that goes into detail what each setting does(rate, cl_cmdrate and cl_updaterate) and recommend settings for different connection types.
This is becoming an increasing problem as I usually have to teach/kick 5-10 people a day for this.
Also It would be wonderfull if serverops could have control over this variable aswell, like sv_minrate.............
Comments
Is is nearly impossible to kill a skulk, which can only be seen once every second.
And if you determin how many kills these ppl actually make it is nearly impossible that they also experience lag.
The following happend to me on ns_veil:
A group of 5 rines, including me, got raped by a single skulk, which seemed to teleport through the room. And you dont kill 5 rines, when you lag, do you?
You can set sv_minrate (and sv_maxrate) and sv_maxupdaterate in your server.cfg, but this seems to enforce only those who join only, leaving those who are ingame free to set their own rates client-side. This is a huge problem in league play, especially in DOD right now. There are methods to check a client's rate and updaterate but no way that I know of to force the clients to conform to your config.
You can set sv_minrate (and sv_maxrate) and sv_maxupdaterate in your server.cfg, but this seems to enforce only those who join only, leaving those who are ingame free to set their own rates client-side. This is a huge problem in league play, especially in DOD right now. There are methods to check a client's rate and updaterate but no way that I know of to force the clients to conform to your config. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am Well aware of these settings kwikloader but currently a serverop cannot enforce in anyway a player's cl_cmdrate. (# of packets sent to the server)
So basicly I was asking for 2 more commands:
<b>Currently:</b>
sv_minrate
sv_maxrate
sv_minupdaterate
sv_maxupdaterate
<b>New:</b>
sv_mincmdrate
sv_maxcmdrate
Try this: Have someone set their cl_cmdrate to 1 and have them bunnyhop around there is no way of tracing them as they will teleport. Then have someone set cl_cmdrate to 50 and repeat. You will see a very noticable difference.
cmdrate is the number of commands per update (cl_updaterate) you send the server.
And the only reasonable thing would be setting your rate to like.. 1.. which would make their screen just as horrible as you would see them... but skyrocket their ping. If they have 50 ping and are "warping" all over the place, they are probably just a fast skulk, and you can't track them, judging by the skill I've seen on your server atleast.
Try getting that pluging that kicks people with pings > 200 or 150 or whatever it is.
Having locked rates is an absolutely ridiculous because players such as myself have their rates set so that NS actually REGISTERS shots when you shoot the skulks.
I use cl_update of 30, and cmd of 101, and they never change, and I wont play on servers that lock my rates to 30/30, or 25/25, and send my rate to 9999, because admins don't know what they are talking about when they set rates.
Read more about the HL engine, it's an interesting thing.
56k bad : 25
56k good : 20 - 28
Broadband bad : 28 - 32
Broadband good : 32 - 48
In large games with lots of action a lower updaterate is actually better
<b>cl_cmdrate</b> : This is opposite to updaterate. Where updaterate is downstream rate, cmdrate is upstream rate. The upstream rate is mostly consistant so the default 30 can be had with both broadband and analog modems
56k bad : 20 - 30
56k good : 30 - 38
Broadband bad : 30 - 48
Broadband good : 30 - 50(50 for lan games mostly. Try and keep it below 50)
Forgot to mention that this command is very crucial to the voice communication system in the HL engine. Over saturation of the upstream can make your voice crack and break or a lack of throughput will do the same thing. Finding your cmdrate is important if you use voice comm a lot
<b>rate</b> : How much information the client will download. This varies for everyone
28.8 : 2400 - 3000
33.6 : 2400 - 3400
56k/ISDN : 3000 - 5000
128k ISDN : 5000 - 7500
Broadband 256k : 6000 - 9000
Broadband 512k : 6000 - 10000
Broadband 1mb : 6000 - 11000
What's important to know on broadband rates is that you have to account for upstream rates as well. You have to find a rate that works for both upstream and downstream data rates without over saturating your connection
Furthermore the command "cl_rate" is still with the HL engine. Set your cl_rate the same as you would as the "rate" command. If you recieve any problems with the connection then set your "rate" to "9999" and set your "cl_rate" to an appropriate value.
56k bad : 25
56k good : 20 - 28
Broadband bad : 28 - 32
Broadband good : 32 - 48
In large games with lots of action a lower updaterate is actually better
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but a standard NS server has sv_maxupdaterate set to 30, so any higher number effectively does no good, but will throw your ex_interp off (assuming ex_interp is configured for a higher-than-30 updaterate setting)
Yumosis wrote about it here (last I knew you need an account on CAL's forums to read):
<a href='http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=22273&view=findpost&p=399528' target='_blank'>http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=399528</a>
Some players have been saying their cl_cmdrate was defaut at 15 and they didnt change it. My understanding is that the default of the HL engine is 30. Is this a real problem/bug or are these players just lying to me?
Thanks,
Emanon
cmdrate is the number of commands per update (cl_updaterate) you send the server.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill just assume you just forgot what cl_cmdrate does.
Im not new to the HL engine or the pos netcode it runs on so dont try and lecture me.
cl_cmdrate updates the server on <u><b>everything</b></u> you do:
*THE NUMBER of updates <u><b>not</b></u> the number of commands you send to the server per second*
Player position
Player direction of movment
player attacks
Orientation of model and its position
So someone with a low cl_cmdrate wouldnt see much lag as their cl_updaterate controls what they are seeing.
For example:
So if a server is running at 60fps and a player has a cl_cmdrate of 1 that means only one server frame is going to have any information about that player. And lets say you have a cl_updaterate of 60 that means that you will receive a bunch of info of everyone elses position but only 1 on that player.
Im not saying that setting this lower will help you because it wont. By making this setting lower you hurt yourself just as much as your help. These Players that I have found are not the best on the server but rather #3-7.
This is a problem with all HL mods but it is just more apparent in NS because of how fast alien players move. (remind you of something? PSHB?)
Prodigy before exploding and ruining a perfectly good explination of a problem please try and read everything I have said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try this: Have someone set their cl_cmdrate to 1 and have them bunnyhop around there is no way of tracing them as they will teleport. Then have someone set cl_cmdrate to 50 and repeat. You will see a very noticable difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try it and watch, if anything they are changing their rate to like.. 100.. cmdrate has nothing to do with this. At all.
What the hell does cl_cmdrate do then? What effects the outgoing information from your computer? How do you control how many packets you can send? Your logic doesnt follow.
I see it every day and by them simpily uping the cl_cmdrate it magicaly disappears? or is it the magical net fairy?
Your not adding anything to this.
Videos soon for those who dont understand or wish to see this first hand.
look at:
<a href='http://amxmod.net/plugins.php?keywords=rate&searchfield=description&cat=search#p43249' target='_blank'>http://amxmod.net/plugins.php?keywords=rat...t=search#p43249</a>
rate_manager was the one I tinkered with and then there was another(I forget the name) on the modns.org forums that did it via another method that was supposed to be better than rate_manager but I never could get the author to explain why.
See that thread here:
<a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=272&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=272&hl=</a>
Anyway, if you find something like this that does work and takes care of the issues you've raised please let everyone know the results.
I have had ratemanager for a while know but it only has the ablitiy change, moderate and remember players cl_updaterate and rate. It doesnt support the retrieval of cl_cmdrate.
Currently I edited and rewrote ratemanger by March to support cl_cmdrate when it is supported by the NSmod team.
Thanks for the info.
CL_CMDRATE effects the AMOUNT of outgoing information, RATE effects how quickly information is sent and recived, and UPDATERATE effects the information recieved from the server.
Now you tell me which one you would change, if you wanted to be laggy as hell, and warp all over the server, because you aren't getting ENOUGH information from the server.
(cl_updaterate of 15 would give you 15 updates per second from the server)
If I wanted to be laggy to everyone else cl_cmdrate
(cl_cmdrate of 15 would give the server 15 updates per second to the server)
(cl_cmdrate of 1 would give the server 1 updates per second to the server)
(cl_cmdrate of 50 would give the server 50 updates per second to the server)
Rate controls the bitrate inwhich you recieve information, people use this to control saturation. It basicly puts a cap on incoming bandwidth.
Which one do you think would make me laggy to you?
Here are the videos:
One with cl_cmdrate ==>1 which becomes 10 (good call Prod)
The other is cl_cmdrate set to 50.
FYI. I recoreded this with fraps so the framerate is 30fps. I know this isnt ideal but it is easier for more people to watch it.
Im not even going to tell you which one is which.
<a href='http://www.thegamerplanet.com/Emanon/cl_cmdrate-test1.ace' target='_blank'>Link1</a>
<a href='http://www.thegamerplanet.com/Emanon/cl_cmdrate-test2.ace' target='_blank'>Link2</a>
This is of a ok marine bunny hoping around, you can only imagine a celerity skulk.
and keep everyones pings down...
yay watched it....<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you look at the link you provided the numbers that they use is for cs. NS has a much different and higher need on client updates as speed plays a huge facter.
Try watching my videos and BTW the link you provided supports my claims, Thanks!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->cl_cmdrate is the number of times per second the client informs the server of its actions. Remember that the amount of data in an update depends on how much is going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont why people dont believe me, have a friend set their cl_cmdrate to 10 and have them run around before you try and tell me that I am wrong. Or watch the videos!