Teleporter Paradox
marce
Join Date: 2004-08-24 Member: 30869Members
Join Date: 2004-08-24 Member: 30869Members
in Discussions
a well known paradox, brought up a while ago when my sister was doing philosophy, more specifically metaphysics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The year is 2500, and teleportation technology has been perfected for use on humans in interstellar travels. This is how the human teleporter works: instead of actually sending you (with all of your atoms) through space-time, it simply scans your body, capturing all the information on every subatomic particle in your body at an instant (assume that they got around Heisenberg's uncertainty principle), at which point your body is destroyed (don't worry, you are put under anaesthetic for the procedure), while the information of those atoms gets transmitted to the destination, where a machine will synthesise an exact replica of you (exactly the same down to the subatomic level) using new atoms. You then wake up in a different galaxy (after the anaesthetics wear off - and the anaesthesia would also be 'teleported' by the way), with all your memory before the teleportation intact, convinced that you have survived the procedure. Of course the atoms are all new, but isn't the new body still the same 'you'? (In real life, every atom in our body eventually gets replaced anyway.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to know what you think, and specifically, whether or not you would go through with the procedure, and why or why not. What questions can be raised by this, especially in terms of the morality of the procedure?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The year is 2500, and teleportation technology has been perfected for use on humans in interstellar travels. This is how the human teleporter works: instead of actually sending you (with all of your atoms) through space-time, it simply scans your body, capturing all the information on every subatomic particle in your body at an instant (assume that they got around Heisenberg's uncertainty principle), at which point your body is destroyed (don't worry, you are put under anaesthetic for the procedure), while the information of those atoms gets transmitted to the destination, where a machine will synthesise an exact replica of you (exactly the same down to the subatomic level) using new atoms. You then wake up in a different galaxy (after the anaesthetics wear off - and the anaesthesia would also be 'teleported' by the way), with all your memory before the teleportation intact, convinced that you have survived the procedure. Of course the atoms are all new, but isn't the new body still the same 'you'? (In real life, every atom in our body eventually gets replaced anyway.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to know what you think, and specifically, whether or not you would go through with the procedure, and why or why not. What questions can be raised by this, especially in terms of the morality of the procedure?
Comments
1.) Security. How can I be sure I don't die in the process of shipping my information? What if there's a packet loss, or my ISP goes down? What then =O.
2.) Cloning/Replication. What if someone made a million copies of me using this technology?
3.) Time Lapse. Ever seen Cowboy Bebop? Remember Faye? (If you haven't -- her character underwent cryo-sleep for a few decades, and woke up a completely different person).
P.S. This isn't a paradox, it's just a highly cliched philosophical question.
Oh, and about teleportation, <a href='http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/' target='_blank'>look here,</a> <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation' target='_blank'>and here.</a>
Mantrid, was your concern for the problems of light speed as an argument why you wouldn't use it, or logistics, or what? I mean, of course, you'd need to have the station already set up on alpha centauri, and thus have gotten there by means other than teleportation.
You just died. GG.
I heard the analogy a different way.
A boat named the Mary is a cargo ship created in the year 800 AD designed for carrying goods across the mediterranean. It sets sail for the first time in 800 AD and over the years, pieces break, metal rusts, and wooden blanks grow old. They are replaced one by one until the year 900 AD when the very last piece of the original Mary is replaced.
My question is, is it the same boat as in 800 AD?
They say that the body regenerates itself entirely every 7 years. This means we have entirely different bodies physically. Yet we call ourselves the same people. Why? You could argue we aren't the same people, but we are, in fact the same.
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Also a question for you guys.. if you teleported someplace, how would you know that your soul didn't die at the place they ripped your body into pieces? Another likeness would be manifested in the other place *thinking* he is you and that he didn't die. In other words, what if you did a "normal" procedure teleporting yourself to some place, and wake up in heaven dead, because you actually died when they dematerialized you?
I heard the analogy a different way.
A boat named the Mary is a cargo ship created in the year 800 AD designed for carrying goods across the mediterranean. It sets sail for the first time in 800 AD and over the years, pieces break, metal rusts, and wooden blanks grow old. They are replaced one by one until the year 900 AD when the very last piece of the original Mary is replaced.
My question is, is it the same boat as in 800 AD?
They say that the body regenerates itself entirely every 7 years. This means we have entirely different bodies physically. Yet we call ourselves the same people. Why? You could argue we aren't the same people, but we are, in fact the same.
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Also a question for you guys.. if you teleported someplace, how would you know that your soul didn't die at the place they ripped your body into pieces? Another likeness would be manifested in the other place *thinking* he is you and that he didn't die. In other words, what if you did a "normal" procedure teleporting yourself to some place, and wake up in heaven dead, because you actually died when they dematerialized you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sortof going with the ship example, the body doesn't transform from one group of atoms to the next in an instant. Just to simply be you, you need to be able to, at any point in your life, recognize yourself from your point of reference.
[that is, if you teleport to LA you get their instantly, if you drive their (say at the speed of light, so it's technically instantly - barring that whole "using all the energy in the universe" thing), but you'd still remember passing by all the stuff getting to LA.]
If you have no chance (chance being the key word) to remember your surroundings as you go, it's not really you anymore.
Slowly regenerating and changing over time is not the same as instantly being replaced. I'm going to have to go with Them, if you teleport in this way, it's not you, it's a clone of you. My consciousness would cease to be, and a new consciousness with my former perceptions would come into being. Although, if you want to get all spiritual on me, you could guess that your 'soul' might recognize your body pattern instantly and your consciousness may leave your first body and the new conscioussness will be your consciousness.
...I don't think it would work that way, though.
There'd be no real way to tell it's a different person though, so for all purposes: it's only the teleporting person who will know the real answer, and only at the moment of teleportation. Damn you philosophy, and your unanswerable questions!
<span style='color:orange'>UltimaGecko shakes his fist at the intangible entity that is Philosophy.</span>
The person arriving at the destination WILL believe that it worked and everything is fine. But that person is NOT you.
There exists a phone-booth sized teleporter. It can read and transmit "you" anywhere in the world, or any other place of infinite value, but the process involves you being slowly dissolved in acid. Once you arrive at your destination, you don't remember anything past the point you walked into the booth, but the fact remains that you did at one point experience that seering pain.
Would you still get into the teleporter?
I was trying to extrapolate this into a belief in afterlife, because if you were to step into the machine, you effectively alias "non-memory" with "non-existance" and thus you would think there was some afterlife due to the fact that the eventual eradication of your memory doesn't instantly end your perception of time.
On the other hand, if you wouldn't step in, you would believe in some higher process of life, which creates some noticeable span when stretched out over many years, and therefore care about your experiences, even without the eventual memory of it.
But I could never work out all the logic... I'd always get contradictory reasoning if I explored every possibility.
Let us say your teleportation device works perfectly. An exact copy is reproduced in a remote location. What would happen though, if they forgot to delete the original?
Let us say your teleportation device works perfectly. An exact copy is reproduced in a remote location. What would happen though, if they forgot to delete the original? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One hell of a cage match?
Let us say your teleportation device works perfectly. An exact copy is reproduced in a remote location. What would happen though, if they forgot to delete the original? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One hell of a cage match? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cue the star trek combat music....
Dun dun dun dun dun dun, dun dun dun dun.......
After pondering it some, I came to the exact same answer that Them did, as well. The entity created at the destination would, to all appearances, be myself, and that entity's conciousness would believe it was the old "me", but the first conciousness ("real me") had really died when being teleported.
<!--QuoteBegin-camO.o+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (camO.o)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.) Security. How can I be sure I don't die in the process of shipping my information? What if there's a packet loss, or my ISP goes down? What then =O. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As the technology is considered "perfected", errors and other problems with the procedure itself wouldn't be a factor. All that really leaves is the question of "does the same conciousness transfer with the body?", which, unfortunately, could never truly be answered, since to all observers, and your new "self", it would appear that it does.
Well, that was a load of nothing...if only I could do something like that for the essay I'm supposed to be working on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not possible. You can "teleport", you can't clone.
<!--QuoteBegin- [URL=http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ( [URL=http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/[/URL]]In brief, they found a way to scan out part of the information from an object <b>A</b>, which one wishes to teleport, while causing the remaining, unscanned, part of the information to pass, via the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen effect, into another object <b>C</b> which has
never been in contact with <b>A</b>. Later, by applying to <b>C</b> a treatment depending on the scanned-out information, it is possible to maneuver <b>C into exactly the same state as [b]A</b> was in before it was scanned. <b>A</b> itself is no longer in that state, having been thoroughly disrupted by the scanning, so what has been achieved is teleportation, not replication<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mantrid, was your concern for the problems of light speed as an argument why you wouldn't use it, or logistics, or what? I mean, of course, you'd need to have the station already set up on alpha centauri, and thus have gotten there by means other than teleportation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would use it, but I'm pointing out that you would miss quite a bit in the 4 years you (or, more specifically, a signal containing information about how to assemble you) are being hurled through space. I would definately use it without hesitation for travel within our own solar system, as missing the 9 hours it would take to get to Pluto wouldn't bother me too much.
Unless, of course, we figure out how to fold space, but thats an entirely different topic (a problem with it being, if I recall, that everything between the two points being folded would be obliterated).
However, the idea of keeping your exact quantum state through teleporting does allow for a form of time-travel, assuming you just sent the information back and forth. The only problem is, its one-way.
Edit: As for arguements about the new thing not being "you", why wouldn't it be? Its been established that you're entire body has been replaced and is being replaced right now. You are not made of the same particles as you were when you emerged from the womb. Now, because the original is destroyed, you think you must be dead. However, what difference is there between you now and the "copy"? Physically, you are exactly the same. "But," you may say, "I am now somewhere very remote from where I was. Surely this makes it different?" The answer to that is a resounding no. Take a step forward. Are you the same person? On the whole, yes. Now, take that trip at the speed of light. Ignore time dilation and gains in mass. You are still the same person.
Interesting question raised by wizard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let us say your teleportation device works perfectly. An exact copy is reproduced in a remote location. What would happen though, if they forgot to delete the original?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as soon as you stepped out of the chamber, you would begin to be a different person. Physically, you'd be the same, in terms of cells and structure and personality.
If you are the sum of your experiences and memories, then as marce1 wakes up and is on Earth and says "hmm I feel like having some chooka's chicken right about now", and marce2 wakes up on Pluto and says "hmm I feel like having some chooka's chicken right about now", you diverge down the road of there being two seperate people with two seperate memory threads from that point on.
but I see your point.
So lets assume that a soul is sort of your essense, and by transferring the body and mind you transfer the soul. then what happens if the original isn't destroyed? you wouldn't be the same person anymore but you'd have the same essence? is your soul the sum of your experiences and memories or is that restricted to your mind?
He is no less a person then I am. If you make a copy of me, why should I be destroyed? I am still human. My destruction, therefore, could be held as murder, despite my memories being copied in their entirety.
If I am ever needed on the other end of the galaxy, my copy can do the work, for I wish to preserve my thread in time, just as surely as my copy would wish to.
Note: If anyone thinks that I'm sounding insane due to our interchanging of first, second and possibly third person, we apologise and they shall be chastised as soon as I can manage to get us under the control them.
You just died. GG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this guy. I'm still waiting for them to make a really fast car. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well then if you wanna save someone's life why don't they make a slight adjustment to the machine and NOT destroy the original? Then your life saving clone can be across the galaxy giving the Heimlech manuver while you are still safe at home mowing the lawn. It's a big galaxy; there's room!
He is no less a person then I am. If you make a copy of me, why should I be destroyed? I am still human. My destruction, therefore, could be held as murder, despite my memories being copied in their entirety.
If I am ever needed on the other end of the galaxy, my copy can do the work, for I wish to preserve my thread in time, just as surely as my copy would wish to.
Note: If anyone thinks that I'm sounding insane due to our interchanging of first, second and possibly third person, we apologise and they shall be chastised as soon as I can manage to get us under the control them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"as you may now all currently fully be aware of, my grammar sucks" =P
i think the point about the murder is very valid, cronos, but the diverging of paths only occurs if there are two of you to diverge, whereas in the original case you would be instantly destroyed.
a friend of mine would love this machine. he is always saying how the world would be a much better place if hundreds of copies of him were created to keep the world in order.
in reality it would just mean that more people wanted to copy my latin homework...
I mean, you wake up in the morning and you feel like you, and look like you, are you the same person who fell asleep those hours ago? You've "experienced" things during that time asleep, so according to the idea of divergance, you are different, but you don't consider yourself a different person every morning when you wake up, do you?
so in the same way that my copy feels that he is infact marce when he arrives on pluto, i feel that I am the same person as fell asleep as I am the person who woke up.
In my opinion: If it looks like a banana, feels like a banana, and tastes like a banana, it's probably a dead rat painted yellow. Wait. I meant it's probably a banana.
I am the sum of my experiences and memories; if those are intact, I don't see why I'm not me, even reconstituted. In a way, this could tie to the "if life had a save-game function" discussion... what if every morning you digitized your subatomic structure - not to clone or teleport, but to preserve it? Then one day you fall into a pit of lava... theoretically, you could be reconstituted with all experiences and memories intact, with about 8 hours lost.
If, after being teleported without destruction I can stand before my clone and know that he is a seperate entity, I would not allow myself to be teleported. Cloned in another location, possibly... teleported, no.
However... if, after being teleported without destruction I can stand before my clone and realise that I am now in control of two entities, one person spread across two bodies, a soul in two places, yes. I would teleport.
However going by general logic and everything we know so far... this isn't likely to be the case.
In the first example you are now dead, in the second all is well, it is clear the important connection has been made... although the process of being disintegrated while you are in control... only to live with the memory of it after may be... unpleasant.
<span style='color:gray'>Addition:
Unless of course they can find a way to connect you up to your clone completely via science to achieve exactly the same results as scenario two... then it would be kind of like cutting off an arm... I suppose it's kind of like what UltimaGecko said... if you don't make the journey... you can't be there... if you can't connect your own self with the location you are supposed to be... it isn't you.
Further addition:
With regards to the whole "One person sharing two bodies" bit, an additional condition would also be required... you must not be able to decide upon a source of your conciousness... if you were to feel in control of both bodies... but you also felt in some way more attached to either body I would also refuse.</span>
If, for some reason, the technology to scan you in preparation for teleportation would instantly result in your annihilation... simply by the process of measurement, it being the only way to scan you properly... I would not dare.
If what everybody is saying is true, that you are the same person when you step into the teleporter, then supposing the teleporter analyzes your molecules, reassembles you somewhere but FORGETS to kill the old copy, then both you and your copy are the same person. How can that be, you say? They have the same memories, the same experiences, the same physical body. According to your definitions, there would be two of you, not the original you and a copy.
What happens to the soul then? Is the soul copied? Does one have the soul and the other doesn't? Or would a soulless copy of you be created somewhere and you'd be at St. Peter's gate?
<a href='http://paganastrology.com/web/articles/quantumthought.html' target='_blank'>Some very interesting teleportation theory</a>
<a href='http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw54.html' target='_blank'>Tachyon particles having imaginary masses -- a little off topic albeit</a>
If I created two diamonds exactly the same they would both be the same... but one would -not- be the other. They are seperate entities.
There are two possible circumstances which I can fathom where full teleportation would be achieved... one being the connection between two entities... and one being where your own self was transferred, not copied, to the destination body... by moving all that is required the original no longer exists at the previous location... destruction would not be required... anything which involves measurement and reconstruction via readings cannot possibly be teleportation of your own self... unless you can construct a real connection between the original and the copy... wherein the two become one single entity at different positions.
Alas we don't have the right technology to actually move things in such a way... and if we did we would need to know everything about our species and what makes us exist and function to make sure absolutely nothing that is essential was ever left behind. You may be able to copy certain elements... but key things -need- to be transferred.
Using the example of a soul, if such things do exist, you cannot copy it... by copying it you make a new entity... it -must- be transferred instead.
Quantum technology may provide an answer... if you consider your linked partner to be a part of your own self it may be possible to make a transfer between them...
The concept of your own existence being a part of, or the same as that of the combined several millions (billions even?) in the past... the connotations are far beyond me...
<span style='color:gray'>-edit- well... I say beyond me... what I really mean is I haven't had sufficient time to consider them...
-edit the second-
<!--QuoteBegin-marce+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (marce)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:gray'>i think the point about the murder is very valid, cronos, but the diverging of paths only occurs if there are two of you to diverge, whereas in the original case you would be instantly destroyed.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have already diverged, one is now destroyed and one remains... I challenge you to find a divergence of much greater magnitude. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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