<!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Oct 13 2004, 07:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Oct 13 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> then with your omniscious, could you grace us with your game breaking/fixing changes that alters how the aliens are played? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Chill.
The reason why that idea would work wonderfully for 1.04 is because of hive restrictions. I believe there were still resource caps in 1.04 unless my faulty memory has failed me yet again. Only when you have 3 hives can you evolve into the beastly Onos. Now in the current version, if Onos was made to be that uber, then aliens will ALWAYS win. That is because all you need is 1 person to **** to Onos. Forget 2nd hive, forget lerks, fades, just make sure the marines don't kill your only hive till you hit get 75 res, hell you'll probably end up with 3 Onos players and game over.
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Oct 13 2004, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Oct 13 2004, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only way to "fix" this is either: 1. Buff aliens ridiculously and ruin balance. 2. Remove ALL regen (no chance of any regeneration, no hives no healspray) 3. Make lifeforms respawn as the lifeform they died as.
And, basically, they all suck. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are those the only ways? Use your damn Noodle, man! be creative!
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Oct 12 2004, 11:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Oct 12 2004, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In all the glory of this post, you have pretty much summed up the intended playing style of an alien.
However, you did leave out a crucial post regarding the inability to clash directly with marines and shrug off the burdens of continuous guerilla warfare. It is called attacking in numbers. That and mixing in a variety of lifeforms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ditto.
Ranged marines vs. melee aliens
I'd say the developers did a good job of reaching their goal. I do see that charge should be better used as an offensive attack instead of a fleeing ability.
NS has lost its focus long ago and the devs have not shown even slightest interest of returning it, no matter how many times it has been brought up. Ah, well; HL2 is around the corner and so are the new mods. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I hate how NS has lost RTS and epicness in favor of yet another fast Team DM style game. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I'd support the Onos gaining a big, big increase in hp/armor in exchange for its speed to be reduced.
Let the Onos become the equivalent of Heavy Armor. It will be slower, and hard as hell to kill...if it is provided with backup.
It's like in real life warfare. Imagine trying to a convoy of tanks through a hostile city without infantry support. It just won't happen.
The Onos should be the same. It will be the focus of that particular alien strategy, and the otehr aliens will have to protect it/distract the marines long enough for it to do its job (however we redesign the Onos to do its job) and retreat would be very hard. It is too slow to escape the marines' ranged fire, and will definitely rely on a team effort to delay the marines should an escape really be necessary. Typically, the ONos would stay in the fight until it has either cleared the opposition, or died trying.
HAs are slow and stick in groups, I think it'd be nice for Onos to do that as well.
the skulk is designed to be the scout class. Lerk is suppose to be support + hit and run. Fade is suppose to be the bread and butter unit. Good in any situation Onos is suppose to slow awkward unit killer.
Well. Your are right it is all hit and run. Why? Because melee units kinda force that. Lerk and skulk are the only lifeforms that can perform their duties.
<!--QuoteBegin-Insomnia+Oct 14 2004, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insomnia @ Oct 14 2004, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well. Your are right it is all hit and run. Why? Because melee units kinda force that. Lerk and skulk are the only lifeforms that can perform their duties. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Incorrect, the reason of them being hit and run is not that they're melee. It's more simple than that, res-flow-system.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chem+Oct 13 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chem @ Oct 13 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that's all the Onos is. It's a stomping machine pure and simple. When infact it should be a living battering ram that plows through marines and structures alike. The onos shouldn't be needing the other aliens to do the job. The other aliens should need HIM. I suggested an idea dealing with this awhile go and it's somewhere in the Future Possible Idea forum now. Look for the Revamping the charge post as I'm too lazy to look it up
When I picture an Onos in 1.04 I think of a behemoth that was absolutely brutal in every way. The epitome of alien evolution. Now I look at the 3.0 one and I think the aliens have been doing some inbreeding because they now have a tissue paper tank with an eating disorder. But in all honesty the only way to give the Onos the title it once had is to increase its HP by a huge amount. I'm talking 3000-4500 HP. Obviously this wouldn't be balanced in combat but if Onos was limited by something else other than resources in NS (re-chaining the lifeforms). Then it would be fairly balanced. Late game base breaker. Kinda like the IS2 in WW2. designed for the sole purpose of plowing through super heavily defended areas. Punching a hole big enough so the people trailing behind it can capitalize on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well, in 1.04 it had the incorrect hitboxes so hitting the onos was VERY rough (except for those who knew where to aim). So, because of the bugs, it was a tank that could take tons of "damage" and seemed invincable. Once the hitboxes got fix, they realized the 500/100 is no where close to where it should be, and such we have the 700/500 onos.
most people keep forgetting that with more hives, armor becomes more effective percentage and worth wise. 700/500 onos with 3 hives has 2100 hps effectively, and carapace onos (700/950) has 3550 hps effectively. People think onos is so weak because once the onos reaches the marine base, <i>everyone</i> open fires on the onos, so the shear firepower from several marines can overwhelm the onos. Now that all the marines are firing on the onos, all of the other aliens are free to run into the marines and start their dinner.
One of the problems with "teamwork" as many people are suggesting are the maps themselves. Onos rushes in, rest of team goes to follow, Onos gets hammered and starts to retreat, aliens all get jammed up in a 6 foot by 6 foot doorway, rines with HMGs and GLs wipe out half of alien team. Onos goes "OMG U $&*#(@ING @&*#(*&ERS U #$&*(IN BLOCKED ME!!", team goes "We trying to help", rines go "LOLOLOLOLOL GG NUBS"
Pretty soon, people get discouraged from trying to coordinate with higher lifeforms and you get the non-teamwork, one-at-a-time-wait-your-freaking-turn, OMG-aliens-are-weak style assaults.
Guerilla warfare works because of three things: Mobility, obscurity, and flexibility. The Kharra have <i>none</i> of those over the marines.
Mobility: Jetpacks and (especially) phasegates trump MCs and blink. And don't forget b(e)acon to defend the base or, even worse, rush through a PG. Also, because even the most powerful marine (HA/HMG) is relatively small, its very easy for the rine team to concentrate its firepower in a precise area. Four Onos could never hope to operate in the same terrain as four HA's. Hell, even TWO Onos have trouble working together in a lot of maps. Yet we see heavy trains of 6+ every day on the marine side of things. And the other aliens rely too much on their speed to truely gel as a fighting force for long. So even what the aliens have in mobility is hampered by the fact that their fastest units can't co-operate with the same efficiency as a marine squad can.
Obscurity: Obs (MT/scan) effectively counters any battlefield stealth by the aliens. Plus, the aliens only possible bases are already known before the map even begins, whereas marines can relocate at will. This is a huge no-no in guerilla tactics. If a superior force knows the exact locations of your operations, you're screwwed. Yet marines are free to relocate to anywhere they please. Couple this with their ability to remain fairly stealthy, and the fact that an effective fighting force (1-2 marines) is also an effective construction force, enables the marine team to perform covert operations with huge consequences (ala PG rush). Aliens can't even hope to match that kind of power and effectiveness in their stealth. At best its used for picking off stray targets that, if they followed proper marine tactics, shouldn't even be away and alone in the first place. Alien 'stealth' is next to worthless when it comes to countering important marine assets (squads and bases).
Flexibility: Basically what this whole topic was started about. The Kharra are a dedicated fighting force comprised solely of fast moving melee fighters, with a few odd ranged and special abilities thrown in. Not exactly what i'd call 'flexible'. Marines, on the other hand ARE fairly flexible. Their weapons are all general purpose (unlike spores, bilebomb, etc). Any marine is capable of operating any weapon or tool, so a single loss to a group is of little consequence. If an alien "squad" looses its lerk (for example), its fighting effectiveness and tactical flexibility is greatly reduced because no one can fill that role other than another lerk. Any marine can do any thing, whereas the Kharra literally require every piece to be in its place to acheive a major objective. And since marines have a commander (dictator), group decisions are faster and easier to make than in an alien 'democracy'. Hence you get slow reaction times of a usually disorganized fighting force - whereas a marine comm can just bacon, drop some shotties, yell "PG now", and blitz a target of his choosing.
Unfortunatly it seems that most of these elements are heavilly ingrained into the game by now. Changing them would be arduous and risky. It's probably better to just recognize the limitations of each side, background fiction be damned, and try to improve on what you have instead of what you wish you had.
But hey, thats just me. I don't make the game, I just play it every once in a while. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Droppin my $0.02
-Evo (I really wish I woulda picked a less obvious name for this game... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
this is a team game and as such you need to work as a team.
skulks are not hit and run they are throw away units. it makes me mad when i see 4 skulks refuse to rush one marine (omg he is shoting at me... run). get over your k/d kick, the game is not about that at all.
learks are not hit and run. they are support and scouts. also makes me mad to see someone go leark right off and get killed because they just had to go for the bite kill. stand off, spore them. let the skulks clean up.
gorge's also not a hit and run. they are ether at the end of a long hall or running. note no perma gorge is required.
fade is a pure hit and run.
onos meat shield. though with a distraction it is posble to smash a base before the comander knows what is going on (though with MT it is best to work with the team). however it is a hit and run if the team is not backing him up.
marines work as a team or are easy preay to a pack of skulks. the same holds true the other way around. so get together and play as a team.
I agree about skulks being just cannon-fodder, but there is a problem; RFK that marines get every time you die. Add in the fact that 1 rine can kill 3 skulks with a bit of aim, you are risking handing them 3-9 res and sitting in the queue yourself.
I have also notice that many players seem to be cowards when it comes to assaulting a place. Onos behind a corner? So what; first one gets devoured and the rest hammer the fatso to steaks and have a dinner in the Mess Hall.
Anyway, me thinks this has been brought up before and probably will be ignored again. But it is nice to chat of "what should be done someday", isn't it? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Zunni, hike ye arse to yer buddies in the coding room and ask what they think, then post and tell us too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Well, we all know that the onos, based on its health, looks like it should be strong compared to...an HA marine. It also looks like a fade should be harder to take down than an HA when it has cara and the HA has armor 3.
Think about this: At hive 3, the Onos has 3550 health if it has carapace. A level 3 armor HA has only 680 health.
But, an Onos gore does 180 damage/second (RoF is 2/second, and gore does 90 damage to marines). A level 3 HMG does 520 damage/second (RoF is 20/second, does 26 damage/bullet). Plus, HMG is ranged, the Onos gore is not, so the onos has to somehow get to the marine.
My solution to this situation? Halve all marine weapon's damage, halve all alien structure health. Then, lower alien health so that this works, but lower onos health to a lesser extent.
Skulk: 35/10 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 5 armor/level.
Gorge: 75/30 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 10 armor/level. This allows the gorge to take slightly more damage than now.
Lerk: 65/15 health (1 more LMG bullet than now, the lerk's health wouldn't divide by 2 very succesfully). Carapace adds 6.66 armor/level.
Fade: 150/75 health. In other words, this is the same as now, the fade will go down exactly as fast. Metabolize healing lowered to 15 (making it more effective, slightly). Carapace adds 16.66 armor/level.
Onos: Right now, with the marine's damage halved (which is about what they should be), the onos would have only 350/300 health. This would explain how it goes down so easily. So, make the Onos have 700/250 health. This would allow the onos to take 70 more LMG bullets than currently, or 35 more HMG bullets at hive 1. carapace would add 80 armor/level (making the onos have up to 700/490 health). This allows the onos to take a total of 336 LMG bullets at hive 1, or 168 HMG bullets at hive 1. This also allows the Onos to take a total of 217 HMG bullets at hive 3.
Then, raise the Onos cost to 85 resources.
Onos gore does 180 damage/second. It does 360 to structures. Charge does 320 damage/second (yes, this is current damage). These marine weaponry changes and alien health changes really show you power of aliens vs. marines currently, and just why the onos has these rediculously high health numbers and still goes down faster then an HA. With these changes, the HMG with weapons 3 now does only 260 damage/second, making charge truly the most poweful weapon in the game, like it should be.
...my post turned into a suggestion post instead of an imformative post on why they need these high health numbers. Oh well, take it however you feel like.
Wow Nolsinker, great post. Your basicly saying, "reset the levels of damage and Ht to allow some flexibility and room to grow", if I read you right. Seems like a great idiea. As it stands now, there isn't much room for the Onos to get much more powerful without some sort of special ability like 1/2 damage from lmg's, re-scailing the damage and ht levels should give the developers a lot more room to work on balance issues.
<!--QuoteBegin-LittleToe+Oct 14 2004, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LittleToe @ Oct 14 2004, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> skulks are not hit and run they are throw away units. it makes me mad when i see 4 skulks refuse to rush one marine (omg he is shoting at me... run). get over your k/d kick, the game is not about that at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And whenever I see skulks rush at a marine waiting at the end of a hallway, I tell myself gg. When those 4 skulks rush, 3 of them die, then the fourth one kills the marine. (Even a bad marine should be able to kill one skulk.) Lots of res for the marines, a long spawn queue for aliens. The res/xp given by this happening repeatedly almost guarantees a marine win, but most skulks don't understand that, and it becomes very frustrating. The issue is not k/d ratio, it's res/xp.
Hate to say it but most of these bad experiences seem to come from pub play on moderately skilled servers. Servers where there is a lack of teamwork and understanding how aliens work. Skulks shouldn't be rushing marine base if there is a base guard there or running down long hallways on marines. Onos shouldn't be running down a long hallway to kill a squad of HMGers, even two or three HMGers. He needs to wait until the marines get almost into stomp range then run at them with a stomp, add in an umbra lerk and the onos will tear it up. Heck, Onos shouldn't really be running around by himself. The only truly soloable alien unit is probably the fade and even then, a squad of smart, competent marines can easily ambush and kill a solo fade. Seriously, the game is pretty balanced as it is, but the game requires teamwork. Without teamwork, then balance it thrown out of wack for BOTH sides.
I've seen aliens get raped because of lack of teamwork, I've seen marines get raped because of lack of teamwork. When both sides have teamwork, then it is balanced because then the game comes down to skill, which it should be.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Tasty+Oct 14 2004, 09:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tasty @ Oct 14 2004, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow Nolsinker, great post. Your basicly saying, "reset the levels of damage and Ht to allow some flexibility and room to grow", if I read you right. Seems like a great idiea. As it stands now, there isn't much room for the Onos to get much more powerful without some sort of special ability like 1/2 damage from lmg's, re-scailing the damage and ht levels should give the developers a lot more room to work on balance issues. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, at first I thought you were saying it was a horrible idea <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
Well anyway, It would be good for them to rescale damage IMO. I think I'll take this to an I&S post.
<!--QuoteBegin-la grande parche+Oct 14 2004, 11:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (la grande parche @ Oct 14 2004, 11:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or learn to hit and run like everyone -_- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not productive at all. People are perfectly capable of playing a game very well and <i>at the same time</i> criticizing the way the game plays. Just because someone says that a certain system in the game is weak, or inbalanced, or not fun does not mean that the proper response will ever be 'no, you just aren't skilled enough to use it properly.' Treat others with the respect that they deserve, and consider reading their posts and responding intelligently instead of firing of a knee-jerk 'you have no skill' response. If that's all you have to say, don't say it.
At least crisano's post above, although it covered the same general theme, was better thought out and had supporting arguments. And it wasn't phrased in a way that implied an insult.
Lol, sorry NolSinkler, there is somuch sarcasm and bile in these forums lately it is becoming difficult to say someone has a good idiea.
I hope the community changes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Tasty+Oct 14 2004, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tasty @ Oct 14 2004, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lol, sorry NolSinkler, there is somuch sarcasm and bile in these forums lately it is becoming difficult to say someone has a good idiea.
I hope the community changes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> mmmm, bile. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*sings* Why can't weeeeee be frieeeends, Why can't weeeee be frieeeends...... *beaten with hockey sticks*
<!--QuoteBegin-NolSinkler+Oct 14 2004, 09:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NolSinkler @ Oct 14 2004, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, we all know that the onos, based on its health, looks like it should be strong compared to...an HA marine. It also looks like a fade should be harder to take down than an HA when it has cara and the HA has armor 3.
Think about this: At hive 3, the Onos has 3550 health if it has carapace. A level 3 armor HA has only 680 health.
But, an Onos gore does 180 damage/second (RoF is 2/second, and gore does 90 damage to marines). A level 3 HMG does 520 damage/second (RoF is 20/second, does 26 damage/bullet). Plus, HMG is ranged, the Onos gore is not, so the onos has to somehow get to the marine.
My solution to this situation? Halve all marine weapon's damage, halve all alien structure health. Then, lower alien health so that this works, but lower onos health to a lesser extent.
Skulk: 35/10 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 5 armor/level.
Gorge: 75/30 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 10 armor/level. This allows the gorge to take slightly more damage than now.
Lerk: 65/15 health (1 more LMG bullet than now, the lerk's health wouldn't divide by 2 very succesfully). Carapace adds 6.66 armor/level.
Fade: 150/75 health. In other words, this is the same as now, the fade will go down exactly as fast. Metabolize healing lowered to 15 (making it more effective, slightly). Carapace adds 16.66 armor/level.
Onos: Right now, with the marine's damage halved (which is about what they should be), the onos would have only 350/300 health. This would explain how it goes down so easily. So, make the Onos have 700/250 health. This would allow the onos to take 70 more LMG bullets than currently, or 35 more HMG bullets at hive 1. carapace would add 80 armor/level (making the onos have up to 700/490 health). This allows the onos to take a total of 336 LMG bullets at hive 1, or 168 HMG bullets at hive 1. This also allows the Onos to take a total of 217 HMG bullets at hive 3.
Then, raise the Onos cost to 85 resources.
Onos gore does 180 damage/second. It does 360 to structures. Charge does 320 damage/second (yes, this is current damage). These marine weaponry changes and alien health changes really show you power of aliens vs. marines currently, and just why the onos has these rediculously high health numbers and still goes down faster then an HA. With these changes, the HMG with weapons 3 now does only 260 damage/second, making charge truly the most poweful weapon in the game, like it should be.
...my post turned into a suggestion post instead of an imformative post on why they need these high health numbers. Oh well, take it however you feel like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> only read a little, sounds interesting, but i gotta go, comment on later.
You're ROF is wrong. It's roughly 12-13 bullets a second, for roughly 312-338 dmg a second at lv 3 damage.
LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10.
Please, can anyone point out how to "get rid of" hit and run? Do you want aliens to be able to just win every game?
As long as something is based on melee, it's going to have to hit and run for the most part. If you buff anything out so they don't have to hit and run, those that still <i>do</i> choose to hit and run will now be unstoppable. That'd be a GG.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Oct 14 2004, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Oct 14 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please tell me you're not serious. 4-5 lvl2-3 lmg marines catch an onos in a bad position (small room and cornered or big room with exits far away) and that onos is toast. 4+ makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Oct 14 2004, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Oct 14 2004, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Oct 14 2004, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Oct 14 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please tell me you're not serious. 4-5 lvl2-3 lmg marines catch an onos in a bad position (small room and cornered or big room with exits far away) and that onos is toast. 4+ makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, that's what seperates the smart onos from the dead one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And if the room is right, 4-6 lmg's can go down fast, even to a lone one with good stomp useage.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
What are the chances of an Onos being caught in a bad position by 4-5 marines in a game with less than 10v10? Very low. Unless the Onos is not too smart in taking a risk and attacking marine start on its own with only one hive, in which case it could get beaconed and the marines would regain any resources they lost in building damages. (Hint: if you want a nice dead Onos, beacon from an observatory built outside of the range of marine start so that the Onos does not become aware of the presence of at least 6 marines before it is fatally late.)
LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a threat, but not necessarily penetratable either. :/
Comments
Chill.
The reason why that idea would work wonderfully for 1.04 is because of hive restrictions. I believe there were still resource caps in 1.04 unless my faulty memory has failed me yet again. Only when you have 3 hives can you evolve into the beastly Onos. Now in the current version, if Onos was made to be that uber, then aliens will ALWAYS win. That is because all you need is 1 person to **** to Onos. Forget 2nd hive, forget lerks, fades, just make sure the marines don't kill your only hive till you hit get 75 res, hell you'll probably end up with 3 Onos players and game over.
1. Buff aliens ridiculously and ruin balance.
2. Remove ALL regen (no chance of any regeneration, no hives no healspray)
3. Make lifeforms respawn as the lifeform they died as.
And, basically, they all suck. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are those the only ways?
Use your damn Noodle, man! be creative!
However, you did leave out a crucial post regarding the inability to clash directly with marines and shrug off the burdens of continuous guerilla warfare. It is called attacking in numbers. That and mixing in a variety of lifeforms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto.
Ranged marines vs. melee aliens
I'd say the developers did a good job of reaching their goal. I do see that charge should be better used as an offensive attack instead of a fleeing ability.
Let the Onos become the equivalent of Heavy Armor. It will be slower, and hard as hell to kill...if it is provided with backup.
It's like in real life warfare. Imagine trying to a convoy of tanks through a hostile city without infantry support. It just won't happen.
The Onos should be the same. It will be the focus of that particular alien strategy, and the otehr aliens will have to protect it/distract the marines long enough for it to do its job (however we redesign the Onos to do its job) and retreat would be very hard. It is too slow to escape the marines' ranged fire, and will definitely rely on a team effort to delay the marines should an escape really be necessary. Typically, the ONos would stay in the fight until it has either cleared the opposition, or died trying.
HAs are slow and stick in groups, I think it'd be nice for Onos to do that as well.
Lerk is suppose to be support + hit and run.
Fade is suppose to be the bread and butter unit. Good in any situation
Onos is suppose to slow awkward unit killer.
Well. Your are right it is all hit and run. Why? Because melee units kinda force that. Lerk and skulk are the only lifeforms that can perform their duties.
Incorrect, the reason of them being hit and run is not that they're melee. It's more simple than that, res-flow-system.
The onos shouldn't be needing the other aliens to do the job. The other aliens should need HIM. I suggested an idea dealing with this awhile go and it's somewhere in the Future Possible Idea forum now. Look for the Revamping the charge post as I'm too lazy to look it up
When I picture an Onos in 1.04 I think of a behemoth that was absolutely brutal in every way. The epitome of alien evolution. Now I look at the 3.0 one and I think the aliens have been doing some inbreeding because they now have a tissue paper tank with an eating disorder.
But in all honesty the only way to give the Onos the title it once had is to increase its HP by a huge amount. I'm talking 3000-4500 HP. Obviously this wouldn't be balanced in combat but if Onos was limited by something else other than resources in NS (re-chaining the lifeforms). Then it would be fairly balanced. Late game base breaker. Kinda like the IS2 in WW2. designed for the sole purpose of plowing through super heavily defended areas. Punching a hole big enough so the people trailing behind it can capitalize on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, in 1.04 it had the incorrect hitboxes so hitting the onos was VERY rough (except for those who knew where to aim). So, because of the bugs, it was a tank that could take tons of "damage" and seemed invincable. Once the hitboxes got fix, they realized the 500/100 is no where close to where it should be, and such we have the 700/500 onos.
most people keep forgetting that with more hives, armor becomes more effective percentage and worth wise. 700/500 onos with 3 hives has 2100 hps effectively, and carapace onos (700/950) has 3550 hps effectively. People think onos is so weak because once the onos reaches the marine base, <i>everyone</i> open fires on the onos, so the shear firepower from several marines can overwhelm the onos. Now that all the marines are firing on the onos, all of the other aliens are free to run into the marines and start their dinner.
Pretty soon, people get discouraged from trying to coordinate with higher lifeforms and you get the non-teamwork, one-at-a-time-wait-your-freaking-turn, OMG-aliens-are-weak style assaults.
Guerilla warfare works because of three things: Mobility, obscurity, and flexibility. The Kharra have <i>none</i> of those over the marines.
Mobility: Jetpacks and (especially) phasegates trump MCs and blink. And don't forget b(e)acon to defend the base or, even worse, rush through a PG. Also, because even the most powerful marine (HA/HMG) is relatively small, its very easy for the rine team to concentrate its firepower in a precise area. Four Onos could never hope to operate in the same terrain as four HA's. Hell, even TWO Onos have trouble working together in a lot of maps. Yet we see heavy trains of 6+ every day on the marine side of things. And the other aliens rely too much on their speed to truely gel as a fighting force for long. So even what the aliens have in mobility is hampered by the fact that their fastest units can't co-operate with the same efficiency as a marine squad can.
Obscurity: Obs (MT/scan) effectively counters any battlefield stealth by the aliens. Plus, the aliens only possible bases are already known before the map even begins, whereas marines can relocate at will. This is a huge no-no in guerilla tactics. If a superior force knows the exact locations of your operations, you're screwwed. Yet marines are free to relocate to anywhere they please. Couple this with their ability to remain fairly stealthy, and the fact that an effective fighting force (1-2 marines) is also an effective construction force, enables the marine team to perform covert operations with huge consequences (ala PG rush). Aliens can't even hope to match that kind of power and effectiveness in their stealth. At best its used for picking off stray targets that, if they followed proper marine tactics, shouldn't even be away and alone in the first place. Alien 'stealth' is next to worthless when it comes to countering important marine assets (squads and bases).
Flexibility: Basically what this whole topic was started about. The Kharra are a dedicated fighting force comprised solely of fast moving melee fighters, with a few odd ranged and special abilities thrown in. Not exactly what i'd call 'flexible'. Marines, on the other hand ARE fairly flexible. Their weapons are all general purpose (unlike spores, bilebomb, etc). Any marine is capable of operating any weapon or tool, so a single loss to a group is of little consequence. If an alien "squad" looses its lerk (for example), its fighting effectiveness and tactical flexibility is greatly reduced because no one can fill that role other than another lerk. Any marine can do any thing, whereas the Kharra literally require every piece to be in its place to acheive a major objective. And since marines have a commander (dictator), group decisions are faster and easier to make than in an alien 'democracy'. Hence you get slow reaction times of a usually disorganized fighting force - whereas a marine comm can just bacon, drop some shotties, yell "PG now", and blitz a target of his choosing.
Unfortunatly it seems that most of these elements are heavilly ingrained into the game by now. Changing them would be arduous and risky. It's probably better to just recognize the limitations of each side, background fiction be damned, and try to
improve on what you have instead of what you wish you had.
But hey, thats just me. I don't make the game, I just play it every once in a while. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Droppin my $0.02
-Evo (I really wish I woulda picked a less obvious name for this game... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
this is a team game and as such you need to work as a team.
skulks are not hit and run they are throw away units. it makes me mad when i see 4 skulks refuse to rush one marine (omg he is shoting at me... run). get over your k/d kick, the game is not about that at all.
learks are not hit and run. they are support and scouts. also makes me mad to see someone go leark right off and get killed because they just had to go for the bite kill. stand off, spore them. let the skulks clean up.
gorge's also not a hit and run. they are ether at the end of a long hall or running. note no perma gorge is required.
fade is a pure hit and run.
onos meat shield. though with a distraction it is posble to smash a base before the comander knows what is going on (though with MT it is best to work with the team).
however it is a hit and run if the team is not backing him up.
marines work as a team or are easy preay to a pack of skulks. the same holds true the other way around. so get together and play as a team.
may the best team win.
I have also notice that many players seem to be cowards when it comes to assaulting a place. Onos behind a corner? So what; first one gets devoured and the rest hammer the fatso to steaks and have a dinner in the Mess Hall.
Anyway, me thinks this has been brought up before and probably will be ignored again. But it is nice to chat of "what should be done someday", isn't it? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Zunni, hike ye arse to yer buddies in the coding room and ask what they think, then post and tell us too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Think about this: At hive 3, the Onos has 3550 health if it has carapace. A level 3 armor HA has only 680 health.
But, an Onos gore does 180 damage/second (RoF is 2/second, and gore does 90 damage to marines). A level 3 HMG does 520 damage/second (RoF is 20/second, does 26 damage/bullet). Plus, HMG is ranged, the Onos gore is not, so the onos has to somehow get to the marine.
My solution to this situation? Halve all marine weapon's damage, halve all alien structure health. Then, lower alien health so that this works, but lower onos health to a lesser extent.
Skulk: 35/10 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 5 armor/level.
Gorge: 75/30 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 10 armor/level. This allows the gorge to take slightly more damage than now.
Lerk: 65/15 health (1 more LMG bullet than now, the lerk's health wouldn't divide by 2 very succesfully). Carapace adds 6.66 armor/level.
Fade: 150/75 health. In other words, this is the same as now, the fade will go down exactly as fast. Metabolize healing lowered to 15 (making it more effective, slightly). Carapace adds 16.66 armor/level.
Onos: Right now, with the marine's damage halved (which is about what they should be), the onos would have only 350/300 health. This would explain how it goes down so easily. So, make the Onos have 700/250 health. This would allow the onos to take 70 more LMG bullets than currently, or 35 more HMG bullets at hive 1. carapace would add 80 armor/level (making the onos have up to 700/490 health). This allows the onos to take a total of 336 LMG bullets at hive 1, or 168 HMG bullets at hive 1. This also allows the Onos to take a total of 217 HMG bullets at hive 3.
Then, raise the Onos cost to 85 resources.
Onos gore does 180 damage/second. It does 360 to structures. Charge does 320 damage/second (yes, this is current damage). These marine weaponry changes and alien health changes really show you power of aliens vs. marines currently, and just why the onos has these rediculously high health numbers and still goes down faster then an HA. With these changes, the HMG with weapons 3 now does only 260 damage/second, making charge truly the most poweful weapon in the game, like it should be.
...my post turned into a suggestion post instead of an imformative post on why they need these high health numbers. Oh well, take it however you feel like.
And whenever I see skulks rush at a marine waiting at the end of a hallway, I tell myself gg. When those 4 skulks rush, 3 of them die, then the fourth one kills the marine. (Even a bad marine should be able to kill one skulk.) Lots of res for the marines, a long spawn queue for aliens. The res/xp given by this happening repeatedly almost guarantees a marine win, but most skulks don't understand that, and it becomes very frustrating. The issue is not k/d ratio, it's res/xp.
I've seen aliens get raped because of lack of teamwork, I've seen marines get raped because of lack of teamwork. When both sides have teamwork, then it is balanced because then the game comes down to skill, which it should be.
Lol, at first I thought you were saying it was a horrible idea <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
Well anyway, It would be good for them to rescale damage IMO. I think I'll take this to an I&S post.
That's not productive at all. People are perfectly capable of playing a game very well and <i>at the same time</i> criticizing the way the game plays. Just because someone says that a certain system in the game is weak, or inbalanced, or not fun does not mean that the proper response will ever be 'no, you just aren't skilled enough to use it properly.' Treat others with the respect that they deserve, and consider reading their posts and responding intelligently instead of firing of a knee-jerk 'you have no skill' response. If that's all you have to say, don't say it.
At least crisano's post above, although it covered the same general theme, was better thought out and had supporting arguments. And it wasn't phrased in a way that implied an insult.
I hope the community changes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I hope the community changes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
mmmm, bile. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*sings*
Why can't weeeeee be frieeeends, Why can't weeeee be frieeeends......
*beaten with hockey sticks*
Think about this: At hive 3, the Onos has 3550 health if it has carapace. A level 3 armor HA has only 680 health.
But, an Onos gore does 180 damage/second (RoF is 2/second, and gore does 90 damage to marines). A level 3 HMG does 520 damage/second (RoF is 20/second, does 26 damage/bullet). Plus, HMG is ranged, the Onos gore is not, so the onos has to somehow get to the marine.
My solution to this situation? Halve all marine weapon's damage, halve all alien structure health. Then, lower alien health so that this works, but lower onos health to a lesser extent.
Skulk: 35/10 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 5 armor/level.
Gorge: 75/30 health (2 more LMG bullets than now). Carapace adds 10 armor/level. This allows the gorge to take slightly more damage than now.
Lerk: 65/15 health (1 more LMG bullet than now, the lerk's health wouldn't divide by 2 very succesfully). Carapace adds 6.66 armor/level.
Fade: 150/75 health. In other words, this is the same as now, the fade will go down exactly as fast. Metabolize healing lowered to 15 (making it more effective, slightly). Carapace adds 16.66 armor/level.
Onos: Right now, with the marine's damage halved (which is about what they should be), the onos would have only 350/300 health. This would explain how it goes down so easily. So, make the Onos have 700/250 health. This would allow the onos to take 70 more LMG bullets than currently, or 35 more HMG bullets at hive 1. carapace would add 80 armor/level (making the onos have up to 700/490 health). This allows the onos to take a total of 336 LMG bullets at hive 1, or 168 HMG bullets at hive 1. This also allows the Onos to take a total of 217 HMG bullets at hive 3.
Then, raise the Onos cost to 85 resources.
Onos gore does 180 damage/second. It does 360 to structures. Charge does 320 damage/second (yes, this is current damage). These marine weaponry changes and alien health changes really show you power of aliens vs. marines currently, and just why the onos has these rediculously high health numbers and still goes down faster then an HA. With these changes, the HMG with weapons 3 now does only 260 damage/second, making charge truly the most poweful weapon in the game, like it should be.
...my post turned into a suggestion post instead of an imformative post on why they need these high health numbers. Oh well, take it however you feel like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
only read a little, sounds interesting, but i gotta go, comment on later.
LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10.
Please, can anyone point out how to "get rid of" hit and run? Do you want aliens to be able to just win every game?
As long as something is based on melee, it's going to have to hit and run for the most part. If you buff anything out so they don't have to hit and run, those that still <i>do</i> choose to hit and run will now be unstoppable. That'd be a GG.
Please tell me you're not serious. 4-5 lvl2-3 lmg marines catch an onos in a bad position (small room and cornered or big room with exits far away) and that onos is toast. 4+ makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no.
Please tell me you're not serious. 4-5 lvl2-3 lmg marines catch an onos in a bad position (small room and cornered or big room with exits far away) and that onos is toast. 4+ makes any position virtually unassailable for an onos. Now, with teamwork h4x, sure, but alone.....no. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's what seperates the smart onos from the dead one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And if the room is right, 4-6 lmg's can go down fast, even to a lone one with good stomp useage.
LMG's are hardly a threat to an inteligent onos, unless you're playing something ridiculous like 10v10.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a threat, but not necessarily penetratable either. :/