Ha In Co

RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Suggestions to make it more useful</div> Currently in Combat, marines have two top tier options to choose from: jetpacks and heavy armour. However, due to the nature of Combat gameplay, HA is next to worthless compared to jetpacks.

Jetpacks:

- Allows the marine to traverse the map very quickly and avoid some attacks.

- When combined with a shotgun or gl, this allows the marine to almost certainly get a few shots into the hive; even with skilled lerks, focus leaping skulks and webbing gorges, chances are that the marine will land some shots on the hive. As he can do this again a short time later, this gives him a steady stream of exp, as well as damaging the alien side.

- Renders him immune to stomp.

- Allows him to camp vents quite successfully, notching up numerous kills that otherwise would be difficult to gain

Heavy Armour

- Allows the marine to absorb more attacks

- Makes the marine a devour sponge. Any marine that gets HA is virtually guareenteed to be singled out as the target of a devour.

- Immune to spores

It's simply not worthwhile to get HA in Combat. The advantages granted by a jetpack outweigh HA advantages by far. Absorbing some additional attacks is rather pointless given that in many cases, welding rarely occurs, and even if it does, the ability to outright dodge attacks combined with resupply means that the average jetpacker survives far longer than the average HA. Immunity to stomp > immunity to spores; no matter how much lerks spore spam, resupply counters it. Yes, low armour marines can be focus-attacked quite easily, but to spend two points on HA simply to render spores useless is rather pointless, given as I have mentioned above that the ability to dodge attacks is greater than the ability to take more. Plus, the jetpacker can chase the lerk down or jump up to where it is positioned. HA can't.

Finally there's the devour issue. A jetpack-shotgun/hmg is a pretty good onos counter, at least in larger rooms. Even in smaller ones though, immunity to stomp and the ability to move quickly away can and does allow jetpack marines to take down oni. Compare this to HA. Oni are *designed* to take down HA. At best, HA counters skulks, but then again so does a LA-LMG marine.

HA needs some kind of justification for costing 2 points. Either give it a new ability, new values, or make it 1 point. I'm posting this thread to get people's thoughts about HA and any possible ideas on how to improve it in Combat. Note that this is Combat only; Classic HAs are a differant discussion altogether.

Comments

  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2004
    Personally I like the idea of welders coming included with HAs. That's pretty much how they are in Classic anyway. If the marine has a welder, then he still has to spend 2 points but he'll be refunded one point once he pays for HA.
  • MonkehMonkeh Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28034Banned
    Problem is if you do get HA you have to spend another point to get a welder which makes you viable, but the bad thing is no one else will get a welder to help you out. so you can absorb these attacks but you are just a magnet that most aliens will instantly go for. as Zek said giving HA a welder for Free will possibly help this out. but with Co not having alot of team work it is going to be awhile before HA becomes viable like it is in Classic
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members
    Exactly what they said. The only reason HAs are good in classic, is the welder. Like they said, the comm drops tons of welders when he drops HA. Even if you give an automatic welder with HA, people would still get jetpack. If you ever comm, you'll hear cries of "gimme a JP, comm, omg", never "gimme an HA, comm, omg." Jetpacks are simply more fun. You move much faster and can fly, and can destroy the hive faster than an HA can. A good marine can get resupply+JP before the aliens get focus (if he abstains from a gun for a while). He can effectively take more damage than HA if he's any good at flying. Heavies will just get swarmed by skulks and die quickly. Jetpacks will always be more popular than heavies in combat.
  • MamboKingMamboKing Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27169Members
    Eh I prefer a catpacked level 3 hmg to either of those, myself.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    You don't have to make the HA come with a welder. (noobs might think "OMG how do you get teh welder?" It's a seperate item in classic, and combat should stay the same)

    The easiest and most practical solution is to make HA avalible for 2 points right after armor 1, instead of armor 2.

    I mean, what in hell is the sense of forcing HA marines to get armor 2 as HA if they don't want it, considering they are going to get a buttload of armor if they take HA, and allowing HA to come one level sooner gives it an advantage over JP.

    Q.E.D.
  • Swift_IdiotSwift_Idiot Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11883Members
    armor1 HA = 230 armor. I <3 HA. That's like seven bites of damage, more if you get medpacks and stuff. HA rush in CO_ sounds fun, my vote-> forlorn for today.

    I like the idea of throwing a free welder in with HA too. I mean...


    okay think about it, the co and ns tech trees are already out of wack. Do you need to research weapons 1 before dropping shotguns at the armory? Not yet anyway. Armor 2 before the protolab allows you to drop JP or HA? Also not yet. But I mean the point is it's screwed up already just fine, throwing a free welder in with the HA package is just a nice idea to get people to use it.
  • MonkehMonkeh Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28034Banned
    might make people use it in Classic aswell, instead of screaming down the mic "WELD ME!!!!!!!!"
  • EmanonEmanon Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
    edited October 2004
    Forlorn and Zeks ideas come out to be the same in the end. But then again Forlorn is always right <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->


    Personally I wouldnt mind seeing the ability to change between HA and JPs. Kinda like aliens can switch between onos and lerk. That way it would be easier to get larger groups of HA.
  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation
    Well, currently the ha is a usefull co item:
    Most ppl just need someone to demonstrate that ha is great. Try it, play co and rush HA (you should be on top of the score board of course), soon you will see several HA on the battlefield.


    I already suggested: including a welder to ha, as well as making JP 3 points.

    So yo got my vote.
  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
    edited October 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Oct 18 2004, 03:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Oct 18 2004, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn and Zeks ideas come out to be the same in the end. But then again Forlorn is always right  <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->


    Personally I wouldnt mind seeing the ability to change between HA and JPs. Kinda like aliens can switch between onos and lerk. That way it would be easier to get larger groups of HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not quite. You don't have to get a welder with Forlorn's idea giving you much more freedom of customization. And in Zek's version, HA doesn't come 1 level earlier, you just get a welder. If you already got a welder, you get the shaft. yay


    I actually like lorn's idea quite a bit.




    And it'd be interesting if you got your 2 points back after death so one could chose between HA or JP when they spawn again... but I'm not sure if I'm for it or not.
  • SLizerSLizer Join Date: 2003-11-07 Member: 22363Members, Constellation
    I like the idea of the free welder. Only problem that co_ HA`s have is the problem that no one else has welders.


    Bit offtopic but co_ suffers from the lack of welders, get a welder at start and you stay camping next to hive much longer.
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    or mix Zek and Forlorn's ideas together.

    make welders the prerequisite of HA's instead of armor levels.

    so if you want HAs, youll put a point in for a welder, then 2 points for HA.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    I like monkey's idea. It will make heavies come a little earlier, and will ensure that heavies are automatically set up to weld eachother. Awesome idea.
  • DantemssDantemss Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24305Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Oct 18 2004, 05:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Oct 18 2004, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, currently the ha is a usefull co item:
    Most ppl just need someone to demonstrate that ha is great. Try it, play co and rush HA (you should be on top of the score board of course), soon you will see several HA on the battlefield.


    I already suggested: including a welder to ha, as well as making JP 3 points.

    So yo got my vote. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then you start seeing lots of onos and your team dies. GG.
    The problem is that HA's can easily be countered, while JP's can't.
  • MamboKingMamboKing Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27169Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Dantemss+Oct 19 2004, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dantemss @ Oct 19 2004, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Oct 18 2004, 05:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Oct 18 2004, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, currently the ha is a usefull co item:
    Most ppl just need someone to demonstrate that ha is great. Try it, play co and rush HA (you should be on top of the score board of course), soon you will see several HA on the battlefield.


    I already suggested: including a welder to ha, as well as making JP 3 points.

    So yo got my vote. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then you start seeing lots of onos and your team dies. GG.
    The problem is that HA's can easily be countered, while JP's can't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Web.
  • k1ndredk1ndred Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23790Members
    hummm
    how bout HA cost only 1 point? this way you freed another point for welder, or move HA from armor 2 to armor 3 and reduce cost to 1 point?
  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Make HA 1 point again, I know it was at some point.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Web. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    GLs.

    Large hive rooms.

    More maneuverable jetpacks.

    In addition you need a selfless player willing to do what is a thankless and boring job. Such players are around, but gorging really gets boring after a while. Whereas the HA counter, the onos, is a juggernaut on the CO battlefield and a heap of fun to play.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Oct 19 2004, 05:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 19 2004, 05:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Web. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    GLs.

    Large hive rooms.

    More maneuverable jetpacks.

    In addition you need a selfless player willing to do what is a thankless and boring job. Such players are around, but gorging really gets boring after a while. Whereas the HA counter, the onos, is a juggernaut on the CO battlefield and a heap of fun to play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Web xeno focus bite leap blink swipe spores


    All kick the crap out of JP's.

    The only thing JP's really have over everything else is skill, thank god. It takes skill to use and more skill to counter.

    Don't want that to happen now. (sarcasm)
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    You're right, Forlorn... It takes way more skill to counter than it does to use. We wouldn't want that to happen at all.
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members
    edited October 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 19 2004, 10:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 19 2004, 10:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> or mix Zek and Forlorn's ideas together.

    make welders the prerequisite of HA's instead of armor levels.

    so if you want HAs, youll put a point in for a welder, then 2 points for HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Awesome idea. It could go like this:

    Jetpack(2) - Armor2(1)
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
    ''''''''''''''''''''''''''Armor1(1) - Welder(1) - Heavy Armor (1 or 2)
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''Start
    (Apostrophe's for spacing.)

    Of course, welder is under armor, which doesn't really make sense. JP and HA are armor options, but welders aren't.

    Or, you could have a pack (suggested before), where you get mines, grenades, and a welder for 2 points. Or pack the welder with the grenades for 1 point only.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Oct 19 2004, 10:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Oct 19 2004, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 19 2004, 10:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 19 2004, 10:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> or mix Zek and Forlorn's ideas together.

    make welders the prerequisite of HA's instead of armor levels.

    so if you want HAs, youll put a point in for a welder, then 2 points for HA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Awesome idea. It could go like this:

    Jetpack(2) - Armor2(1)
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
    ''''''''''''''''''''''''''Armor1(1) - Welder(1) - Heavy Armor (1 or 2)
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''Start
    (Apostrophe's for spacing.)

    Of course, welder is under armor, which doesn't really make sense. JP and HA are armor options, but welders aren't.

    Or, you could have a pack (suggested before), where you get mines, grenades, and a welder for 2 points. Or pack the welder with the grenades for 1 point only. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No this is bad because you cannot get HA any faster than JP, making HA even less used.
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    just to clarify, I meant:

    Start -> Welder(1) -> HA(2)

    As in, take HA off the armor branch completely.
  • im_lostim_lost TWG Rule Guru Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15861Members
    It doesn't help if you have a welder. Your teammates have to have welders to make it worthwhile. I'm gonna have to agree with what was already said about allowing it to come a level earlier. Either make it one point, or have it branch off of armor1. Or both. If both are done, HA would become much more common, though it would probably be too powerful (because it would come before aliens can counter it).
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    Well for HA to be useful remember it needs a gun, a HA/LMG marine is hardly a threat.

    But still a level 2 or 3 HA marine would be a pretty tough chew for a skulk.

    Anyhow just make it branch off armor 1 plz
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    To make HA worth getting, repack resupply/welder into one upgrade, and have it only cost one point. That way, pretty much everyone has welders. then, make Ha cost only one point, and let it have only a level 1 armor requirement.

    So it'd be like this:

    Jetpack(2) - Armor2(1)
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
    ''''''''''''''''''''''''''Armor1(1) - Heavy Armor (1)
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''|
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''Start

    The rest is same with the exception of course, of the welder being included in the resupply upgrade.
  • DementedDemented Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18573Members
    Good point meatshield. For HAs to be useful people have to have welders handy at all times. Problem is, mixing resupply with welders would make LAs pretty tough as well.

    I'd suggest combining mines/welders/grenades into 1 upgrade, then implementing Forlorn's idea of lvl 1 armour HA. This way not everyone will get welders, but the welder package will look attractive enough to ensure that a substantial portion of the team will have welders ready.
  • Gerald_R_FordGerald_R_Ford Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22544Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 18 2004, 10:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 18 2004, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't have to make the HA come with a welder. (noobs might think "OMG how do you get teh welder?" It's a seperate item in classic, and combat should stay the same)

    The easiest and most practical solution is to make HA avalible for 2 points right after armor 1, instead of armor 2.

    I mean, what in hell is the sense of forcing HA marines to get armor 2 as HA if they don't want it, considering they are going to get a buttload of armor if they take HA, and allowing HA to come one level sooner gives it an advantage over JP.

    Q.E.D. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    we have a winner.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Demented+Oct 21 2004, 05:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Demented @ Oct 21 2004, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good point meatshield. For HAs to be useful people have to have welders handy at all times. Problem is, mixing resupply with welders would make LAs pretty tough as well.

    I'd suggest combining mines/welders/grenades into 1 upgrade, then implementing Forlorn's idea of lvl 1 armour HA. This way not everyone will get welders, but the welder package will look attractive enough to ensure that a substantial portion of the team will have welders ready. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    But I think it'll encourage newbs to learn to weld each other even as a Light Marine. NEwbs can learn the power of the welder is brutal at all times, not just when the HA starts rolling out. If welders come with resupply, then focus will no longer be the overpowered trait it is in combat.

    This would make focus counterable if the marines try to counter it fromt he beginning: Focus takes two points to get. Resupply and Welder is 1 + 1 for armor1.

    People rushing HA won't be overpowered because HAs with level 0 LMGs suck. (Level 4 HA/lmg < Level 4 Fade)

    And now, combat will finally come close to being balanced as marines can finally come close to end-game power (whereas aliens can still go above and beyong max power compared to Classic) because in theory, every marine could have enough points now to go Ha, HMG/GL, level 3 weapons, resupply+welder, motion tracking. If some marine stays with the shotgun, then they have one more slot. Possibly another armor upgrade, or catpacks.

    Then, we might see some true heavy trains in combat.
  • exileSoulexileSoul Join Date: 2004-07-04 Member: 29716Members
    timelimit is **** period. 2-3 onos and ur ****, most co_ maps have low ceilings and small hives which > jps. imo, la and ha are absolutly USELESS in killing the hive due to wave spawn.
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