<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 23 2004, 12:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 23 2004, 12:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-The_Spectre+Oct 23 2004, 12:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_Spectre @ Oct 23 2004, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't believe noone has said this:
Fix the fps dependency. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How?
That's like saying "Fix world hunger." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, do the hunger thing too. Please, great ns team? Infinite cookies for everyone should do the trick.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Basically guys, headhunt Valve on that one. It's not going away, it's core HL coding. In fact, not coding things on system specs is a long term software development no-no (ever played an old DOS game on your new PC? It's stupidly fast, you end up limiting your PC to do it) yet Valve ignored that as like most of us, they didn't realise how fast PC's would be in 1, 3, 5 years time and didn't plan for their game to be still being played then.
Basically, the FPS impact can be limited, but not negated.
This is a thought that should be applied to everyone uses the 'oh, well, is it <i>unbalanced</i> for the people with worse PC's?' to which the answer is 'yes', but it's your responsibility to have a PC capable running at the prerequisite to play the game in the firsy place, not the developers.
I'd personally go for adding Quake jumping, with a different jump noise if you were getting the motion right. This allows players to educate themselves, and if you don't heed the noises and learn, well I can't teach stupidity. RTFM, as the Linux people will say. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But it's another to be able to kill bunnyhoppers without bunnyhopping.
You people can bunnyhop all you want, marines and aliens. As long as I'm not forced into it, I could care less, as I find bunnyhopping looking quite pathetic, especially when I kill the bunnyhopper without resorting to bunnyhopping tactics. Repetedly.
I don't bunnyhop, will never bunnyhop, and never wish to be forced to bunnyhop. But if you need to bunnyhop, go ahead. Doesn't hurt my game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Oct 23 2004, 03:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Oct 23 2004, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 23 2004, 10:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 23 2004, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Add +3jumps script into the game, it's easy enough to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interestingly, that's precisely what I suggested as well. Adding 'Triple Jump' to the bindable commands list.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this happens can we remove blockscripts? Seeing as how you'd be officially 'endorsing' 3jump, and thats pretty much the only 'bad' script out there. (other than _special which will be gone next version) Wouldn't it make sense to remove mp_bs? It would serve no real purpose except to divide the community and create arguments, since it wouldn't block anything anymore.
On a side note: I think the best solution would be to have Quake-style jumping like they have in S&I (as RandomEngy said). Your jump key is still bound to +jump, lerk still works the same way, and its just imo a cleaner solution.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lurker-+Oct 23 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Lurker- @ Oct 23 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Edit: bunnyhopping doesn't make you god. It's just usefull for getting somewhere faster. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but that usage also has extraneous effects... ie. it is possible to move so fast that decent people with decent tracking abilities are effectively neutered because they can no longer track you. This is either from you simply moving too fast for them to track or it can also cause client prediction code to become incredibly unreliable (ie. even if they are tracking you... you aren't really there) So it may not make you a god in the sense that you're nigh indestructible... but if you're good enough then it can easily make you harder to kill by leaps and bounds... pun definitely intended. The basic question is of ethical nature... "Just because you can do it, should you?"
I really don't want to turn this thread into another bhopping flame war. Everyone just needs to know that as useful and skillful as bhopping is, there exist very legitimate arguments against its use particularly in the public arena. Have all the fun you want with it on a LAN where everyone can just shout across the room and agree that bhopping is OK to use.
Back to the topic at hand, I don't think I'd mind having the quake-style jump in a training mode of sorts... but definitely not as part of actual gameplay. Its bad enough that bhopping doesn't really seem (to me) to fit well with the NS theme/gameplay/style/whatever... but having almost nonstop jumping seems kinda rediculous. It's already bad enough as it is now with the skilled bhoppers running around the place.
<!--QuoteBegin-AoF.Palin+Oct 23 2004, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AoF.Palin @ Oct 23 2004, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Lurker-+Oct 23 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Lurker- @ Oct 23 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Edit: bunnyhopping doesn't make you god. It's just usefull for getting somewhere faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but that usage also has extraneous effects... ie. it is possible to move so fast that decent people with decent tracking abilities are effectively neutered because they can no longer track you. This is either from you simply moving too fast for them to track or it can also cause client prediction code to become incredibly unreliable (ie. even if they are tracking you... you aren't really there) So it may not make you a god in the sense that you're nigh indestructible... but if you're good enough then it can easily make you harder to kill by leaps and bounds... pun definitely intended. The basic question is of ethical nature... "Just because you can do it, should you?"
I really don't want to turn this thread into another bhopping flame war. Everyone just needs to know that as useful and skillful as bhopping is, there exist very legitimate arguments against its use particularly in the public arena. Have all the fun you want with it on a LAN where everyone can just shout across the room and agree that bhopping is OK to use.
Back to the topic at hand, I don't think I'd mind having the quake-style jump in a training mode of sorts... but definitely not as part of actual gameplay. Its bad enough that bhopping doesn't really seem (to me) to fit well with the NS theme/gameplay/style/whatever... but having almost nonstop jumping seems kinda rediculous. It's already bad enough as it is now with the skilled bhoppers running around the place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't hard to track a bunnyhopper. It's hard to track a skilled ambusher or a crackbouncing pubhopper but they go too slow to get anything done
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 23 2004, 04:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 23 2004, 04:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Add +3jumps script into the game, it's easy enough to do
Either that a quake style jumping system <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd prefer quake-style jump queueing. That would be much better than a 3 jump, at least for me, because I currently use a 7 jump as a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hologram0110+Oct 23 2004, 08:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hologram0110 @ Oct 23 2004, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quake style jumping is better then having 3 jump scrips...
If the dev team wants it to be easy why not just increase the speed of the skulk and remove bunny hopping?
At least to me it doesnt make sence to have it both ways... It should be hard like it is now, or totally itegrated everything else would just seem out of place. Atleast to me.
If the devs go the 3 jump script way. Make it toggle able? My "n" for example, turns 3 jump on and off. The only class that suffers from a 3 jump script is the jetpack.Everything else it helps or doesnt harm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true. The more jumps in a jump script the slower you blink as a fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Oct 23 2004, 10:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Oct 23 2004, 10:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, if you don't balance around skill, what do you balance around? Please tell me, I'm interested in knowing. The only way skill breaks balance is if one player or side is greatly skilled in proportion to the other team. If you balance around something else besides skill, then one team with 0 skill could take out the best clan in NS a pretty good portion of the time. How is that fair at all to the people that spend a lot of time honing their skills? It's not, which is why the game takes skill into account, I fail to see how that's "ridiculous". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To answer this first consider the above post :
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Uh yeah, to enlighten the people saying bunnyhop is fine now, bunnyhopping was left in for the kharaa intentionally. It's also still a complicated action, and for skulks it takes even more work to bunnyhop successfully than in other games. New players and even long time players usually don't know how to bunnyhop, and as long as it's an intended feature, making it more accessible wouldn't hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is no secret that the devs intentionally left bhopping in to aid skulks. Thus in order for a skulk to perform the way it is intended one must assume that bhopping must be used to some extent. Thus, if a skulk does not know how to bhop then that player is automatically at a disadvantage. Instead of relying on a particular skill to create the intended feature/skill/balance, implement a standard feature that is activated automatically. In other words build the speed required into the skulk.... don't rely on the player knowing how to pull out that speed. This is not to say that bhopping couldn't be left in, but i feel the effect that bhopping should give should be minimal ie. 5-10% speed increase ablsolute max.
As to the rest of the post, I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. Essentially there should be a balance that exists at a skill level of 0... ie. if no one has any skill at all, the game is still technically balanced. Then in order to break the balance, one team has to have more skill than the other. I never intended to convey that two teams that are so disparate skill levels should somehow be equal regardless. I simply suggested that relying on a particular skill to effectively balance the game out gives a stark disadvantage to any player that does not know about or is not effective with that skill. Once you have a level playing field then the side with more skill should essentially win... though there are always the occasional flukes that make the game a little unpredictable and exciting at times.... but that's beside the point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Will you shut the hell up please?
Bunnyhopping is a skill, they just want to make it easier to learn. Hell if you wanted all the **** you just said then watch a person that bunnyhops. You are going ridiculously overboard with the idea of making bunnyhopping easier. NSLearn is doing a stupendous job of teach people how to bunnyhop. Anyone that has wanted to learn so far, HAS learned, no need for a damn tutorial that shows you step by step how to do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I was simply giving my honest opinion here. This is a discussion forum after all. If you don't like my opinion then you can very well point out the flaws that you see. But coming out in such a condescending manner as if my opinions simply aren't worth the bits it takes to represent them, then you my friend are both inconsiderate of my (and perhaps other's) honest opinion and performing a disservice to this forum community as a whole. I hate to sound preachy and almighty or anything, but just who the hell do you think you are? To quote Office Space, you sir, have lead a trite and meaningless life... and you are a very BAD person.
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 23 2004, 01:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 23 2004, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It isn't hard to track a bunnyhopper. It's hard to track a skilled ambusher or a crackbouncing pubhopper but they go too slow to get anything done <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then I would have to admit that you are a much better aim than I am.
<!--QuoteBegin-AoF.Palin+Oct 23 2004, 03:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AoF.Palin @ Oct 23 2004, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is no secret that the devs intentionally left bhopping in to aid skulks. Thus in order for a skulk to perform the way it is intended one must assume that bhopping must be used to some extent. Thus, if a skulk does not know how to bhop then that player is automatically at a disadvantage. Instead of relying on a particular skill to create the intended feature/skill/balance, implement a standard feature that is activated automatically. In other words build the speed required into the skulk.... don't rely on the player knowing how to pull out that speed. This is not to say that bhopping couldn't be left in, but i feel the effect that bhopping should give should be minimal ie. 5-10% speed increase ablsolute max. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, your logic I believe is off.
Because bhop is something you must learn, it actually helps to progress the skill flow of the game.
At the bottem of skill, you have skulks who barely know how to move and track a marine, and the marine's hit with less than 10% of their bullets.
As you progress up the skill ladder, you get to the point where marines can aim relatively well, and the skulks are ambushing/moving around/using walls etc. I would estimate this to be at 50%-60% accuracy. At this point if the skulk does not learn how to bhop he's at a disadvantage.
Basically, you can't say the skulk who cannot bhop is at a disadvantage because the marine who cannot aim is at a disadvantage as well. So yeah, the bhop is a natural progression of skill.
I could concede that you could consider bhopping to be a natural progression of skill, but comparing it to a marine developing his aim is a bit like apples and oranges. Learning to aim well has the attribute of self revelation. A marine that cannot aim well can easily understand this and try to improve his aim skill. However with bhopping, it is not so revealing. It is a trick of the trade that has gained popularity over the years, but is not something that I could honestly directly compare to learning to aim better. Now, a skulk learning to track marines well enough to close distance and circle strafing around said marine is much more self evident. So... comparing aiming with say... circle strafing might be a bit more on target... however you'd have to compare alien bhopping with marine bhopping... but then marines can't bhop anymore (if i remember correctly) so why do aliens? Admittedly... this is simply beyond my comprehension.
<!--QuoteBegin-AoF.Palin+Oct 23 2004, 03:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AoF.Palin @ Oct 23 2004, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I could concede that you could consider bhopping to be a natural progression of skill, but comparing it to a marine developing his aim is a bit like apples and oranges. Learning to aim well has the attribute of self revelation. A marine that cannot aim well can easily understand this and try to improve his aim skill. However with bhopping, it is not so revealing. It is a trick of the trade that has gained popularity over the years, but is not something that I could honestly directly compare to learning to aim better. Now, a skulk learning to track marines well enough to close distance and circle strafing around said marine is much more self evident. So... comparing aiming with say... circle strafing might be a bit more on target... however you'd have to compare alien bhopping with marine bhopping... but then marines can't bhop anymore (if i remember correctly) so why do aliens? Admittedly... this is simply beyond my comprehension. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a progression of aim skill vs. movement skill.
THere are many things that help your aim but are not exactly easy to find out.
For example, better crosshairs, removing mouse acceleration, making sure you don't have mouse lag, stuff like this is often ignored which really hurts your aim.
It's not apples and oranges because as you get better aim you kill more, as you go faster as a skulk you kill more.
It's almost impossible to balance ns at a skill of 0 due to the nature of the game. What happens if NSPlayer, who just bought half-life 10 minutes ago to play this game his friend told him about, hops in the comm chair, and his team is full of marines who cant aim at all, vs a team of skulks who dont know the map and cant aim. eventually, the aliens will find marine start, and start munching, while the marines wander aimlessly. sure, one might find the hive, and empty all his ammo into it, but what then? when the hive is under attack, the game TELLS the aliens.
Ive never agreed with the thing in the manual about newbies going marines. The easiest way to learn the maps is as alien, becuase you move around it much more, and have hive sight.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 23 2004, 02:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 23 2004, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> THere are many things that help your aim but are not exactly easy to find out.
For example, better crosshairs, removing mouse acceleration, making sure you don't have mouse lag, stuff like this is often ignored which really hurts your aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can see these things being a lot more comparable to bhopping because you'd have to know about them before you could implement them. But as you said yourself these things are often ignored. To be honest this is the first time i've ever even though of changing crosshairs or considering mouse acceleration. I've always just done with what I have in front of me assuming that it is what the devs intended.
But I still hold that learning to aim as a marine is comparable with learning to aim with a skulk. Using your own comparison, the better you learn to aim on either side of the fence, the more you kill.
Along that same argument you could say that the more you learn to bhop the better you are at killing... much like adding these custom crosshairs or tweaking your mouse settings. However this is a totally different class of "customizations" if you will. Also by this argument and your own statements, you would have to concede that customization is in a way related to skill, in that if you are able to customize accordingly, your skill is then enhanced. However this is a contradiction of popular opinion regarding scripting and such things... that being that scripting in no way increases one's skill. If the devs decided to take out any ability to script or bunnyhop or customize in any way, would you be willing to make the claim that the better players among us would inevitably become less skilled as a result?
Regardless, I cannot see a direct justification that movement speed and aiming are directly related. Aiming is an adaptive behaviour while movement speed is highly subject to the confines of the game engine... most people are either moving one of two speeds... slow or fast. Aiming only becomes difficult when the speed is erratic or anomalous (ie. a single bhopper on a server will likely be more successful than if all the team was bhopping... humans tend to reactively adapt to a "normalzed situation") I would argue that if everyone could infact bhop and did so almost all the time that the accuracy of a good marine would still seem rediculously good simply because he has adapted to an entire server of bhoppers. The only difference that would be made would be the time it takes for a skulk to close a distance. However, if this is the sole basis of the argument for allowing bhopping to exist in the first place, then why not simply increase the base speed of the skulk to allow skulks to close the distance faster.
<!--QuoteBegin-RiotingNerd+Oct 23 2004, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RiotingNerd @ Oct 23 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's almost impossible to balance ns at a skill of 0 due to the nature of the game. What happens if NSPlayer, who just bought half-life 10 minutes ago to play this game his friend told him about, hops in the comm chair, and his team is full of marines who cant aim at all, vs a team of skulks who dont know the map and cant aim. eventually, the aliens will find marine start, and start munching, while the marines wander aimlessly. sure, one might find the hive, and empty all his ammo into it, but what then? when the hive is under attack, the game TELLS the aliens.
Ive never agreed with the thing in the manual about newbies going marines. The easiest way to learn the maps is as alien, becuase you move around it much more, and have hive sight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Luckily for us, the base skill is rarely level 0 so i think we can make a few small concessions. Those who come to NS have usually had at least a little experience with some other FPS before hopping on. Nevertheless, we cannot guarantee that any of the new guys are going to have the skills "required" to have a balanced game if in fact there is a certain level of skill required to balance the game. Such is the case when making the case that bhopping was left in to allow for the intended function of skulks. I simply think there are other, better, solutions to "balancing" aspects of the game.
Also making the observation that Level 0 skill based games might favor aliens only reinforces the theory that an enhancement such as bhopping simply isn't needed.... but only vaguely so I won't really go down that road too far.
Faster base speed Skulks (to the point of the increase found in bhopping) would be positively utterly invincible. The reason bhopping works is because its a speed increase with a restriction - no wallwalking while bhopping, and vulnerability to obstacles. Remove that and you just have a Celerity Skulk - now imagine everyone spawned as a Celerity Skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ive never agreed with the thing in the manual about newbies going marines. The easiest way to learn the maps is as alien, becuase you move around it much more, and have hive sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its so they don't quit. A guy playing alien like a conventional FPS (where your line of sight is as lethal as your opponents, and hence you just hop out and blast away) will get frustrated really quickly. A guy marining like a conventional FPS will latch on rather quickly - he'll suck by NS standards, but hell knows he'll barely notice because he's still able to get lone Skulk kills.
Just remember that <i>easy to learn</i> and <i>easy to master</i> are not the same thing and are mutually exclusive.
- some native jump method (queued is easiest)
- remove the need for "sv_cheats 1" to see your ground speed or add some visual/ audio que for alien player speed increaing and decreasing
Having to start a local server with cheats on to learn how to do something in the game is extremely non-intuitive. Also, looking at the upper right hand corner (cl_showspeed) of the screen looking [instead of center] at a highly fluctuating numbers makes it very, very difficult to learn.
- add a small speed boost of XX units to a jumping skulk if the base speed is lower than ZZZ units
The hardest thing to learn when first starting is the first jump. If you have a poor starting speed, it will take quite a few hops before you reach a decent speed if at all. When first learning, it's quite common for a missed strafe/glide starting jump to actually reduce ones speed to well below normal skulk walking speed. (This relates to some user que for the player's speed)
This also removes a bit of the hop relying so heavily on frames per second. Lower FPS don't have the advantage of a high growth of floating point error accumulation.
Thnx for the thread Shockwave... Its good to see a relatively mature BHOP discussion.
Bhop is too hard to learn and master this way. It sure must be easier to learn. However It still must be a bit hard to master. Players must spend time to improve both movement and timing in different situations and environment.
Im against automating the Bhop. And Im against quake style jumping where pressing jump key any time in air guarantees your next jump will be perfect.
Or Im against any solution that need no timing skill at all...
I used to use a 5 jump script (I got 100-150 latency generally). It makes learning and mastering Bhop easy enough (even for a 32 year old man with slower reflexes, such as me ^_^) but still require some skill on timing...
just make the normal +jump, spam x amont of jump commands for only skulks and gorges. x must be decided carefully; not too much, not too less. There still must be some element of skill on timing; But without making it impossible for high latency or low FPS players. And making it for only skulks and gorges solves the jump spam problems with lerks and JPs.
There must be a way to keep an eye on your speed. Current speedometer is not useful, distracts your concentration. A solution using sound to indicate the acceleration will be much more usefull I guess... Something fits the movement... Something like subtle wind sound you hear as you run increasing as you speed up...
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Oct 23 2004, 04:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Oct 23 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Faster base speed Skulks (to the point of the increase found in bhopping) would be positively utterly invincible. The reason bhopping works is because its a speed increase with a restriction - no wallwalking while bhopping, and vulnerability to obstacles. Remove that and you just have a Celerity Skulk - now imagine everyone spawned as a Celerity Skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good argument for bhopping... but I still say we can a) come up with a better solution than just bhopping or b) come to a compromise that ends up boosting speed a little bit on the base speed and restricting the bhopping speedboost moderately.
Frankly I'm all about option be because it can be the simplest to implement and still keeps both sides of the argument happy. It would decrease the reliance of bhopping to provide the "intended effect" with the skulks while still allowing those with bhopping skills to still generally move about the map faster. Regardless, there should be a speed limit put in place that prevents skulks from attaining "utterly invincible" speeds as these speeds not only make it difficult for a great many people to track said skulk, but these speeds also make client-side prediction code very unreliable.
the adding +3jump to ns is a great idea. Due to hl engine, players stick to the ground after they land if they don't do another +jump at just the right time. The +3jump allows you to hit it if you are skilled enough. I would like to see this command not work on mouse wheel and such.
Hum, for the things people keep saying, id assume it wouldnt be hard to make a +3jump script "bounded" to +jump apply only when your a skulk or a gorge?
For the look of it, it would solve alot of problems considering this never ending debate. Atleast, id assume it would. :o
Walljumping would be an interesting alternative....that, or at least make it so a skulk can actually navigate along walls most of the time without getting stuck. People only ever make use of the ceiling and walls to get into vents/ambush spots. Can't make use of it as an evasive tactic unless you're in specific areas where the walls are smooth.
aiming is a skill, why shouldn't movement be one? A player who practices bhop should be able to go faster, it makes sense and improves gameplay.
Movement quirks like the ones that have been discovered in HL over the past ~5 years (ramp sliding, gliding, bhop, sharking, chophop etc) will probably be the thing I miss most when HL2 comes out and everyone starts playing that. I dunno the HL engine just has a very crisp feel, like I know what's gonna happen if I do x. Other engines seem too 'smooth' and unpredictable imo... like Q3 and UT series.
Comments
Fix the fps dependency.
Fix the fps dependency. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How?
That's like saying "Fix world hunger."
Fix the fps dependency. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How?
That's like saying "Fix world hunger." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, do the hunger thing too. Please, great ns team? Infinite cookies for everyone should do the trick.
Basically, the FPS impact can be limited, but not negated.
This is a thought that should be applied to everyone uses the 'oh, well, is it <i>unbalanced</i> for the people with worse PC's?' to which the answer is 'yes', but it's your responsibility to have a PC capable running at the prerequisite to play the game in the firsy place, not the developers.
I'd personally go for adding Quake jumping, with a different jump noise if you were getting the motion right. This allows players to educate themselves, and if you don't heed the noises and learn, well I can't teach stupidity. RTFM, as the Linux people will say. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
But it's another to be able to kill bunnyhoppers without bunnyhopping.
You people can bunnyhop all you want, marines and aliens. As long as I'm not forced into it, I could care less, as I find bunnyhopping looking quite pathetic, especially when I kill the bunnyhopper without resorting to bunnyhopping tactics. Repetedly.
I don't bunnyhop, will never bunnyhop, and never wish to be forced to bunnyhop. But if you need to bunnyhop, go ahead. Doesn't hurt my game.
Hold ctrl (duck) down to wallwalk, releasing it makes you fall off walls.
Edit: bunnyhopping doesn't make you god. It's just usefull for getting somewhere faster.
you shouldn't ever give in to those evil 'bunnyhop tactics'.
Interestingly, that's precisely what I suggested as well. Adding 'Triple Jump' to the bindable commands list.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this happens can we remove blockscripts? Seeing as how you'd be officially 'endorsing' 3jump, and thats pretty much the only 'bad' script out there. (other than _special which will be gone next version) Wouldn't it make sense to remove mp_bs? It would serve no real purpose except to divide the community and create arguments, since it wouldn't block anything anymore.
On a side note: I think the best solution would be to have Quake-style jumping like they have in S&I (as RandomEngy said). Your jump key is still bound to +jump, lerk still works the same way, and its just imo a cleaner solution.
True, but that usage also has extraneous effects... ie. it is possible to move so fast that decent people with decent tracking abilities are effectively neutered because they can no longer track you. This is either from you simply moving too fast for them to track or it can also cause client prediction code to become incredibly unreliable (ie. even if they are tracking you... you aren't really there) So it may not make you a god in the sense that you're nigh indestructible... but if you're good enough then it can easily make you harder to kill by leaps and bounds... pun definitely intended. The basic question is of ethical nature... "Just because you can do it, should you?"
I really don't want to turn this thread into another bhopping flame war. Everyone just needs to know that as useful and skillful as bhopping is, there exist very legitimate arguments against its use particularly in the public arena. Have all the fun you want with it on a LAN where everyone can just shout across the room and agree that bhopping is OK to use.
Back to the topic at hand, I don't think I'd mind having the quake-style jump in a training mode of sorts... but definitely not as part of actual gameplay. Its bad enough that bhopping doesn't really seem (to me) to fit well with the NS theme/gameplay/style/whatever... but having almost nonstop jumping seems kinda rediculous. It's already bad enough as it is now with the skilled bhoppers running around the place.
True, but that usage also has extraneous effects... ie. it is possible to move so fast that decent people with decent tracking abilities are effectively neutered because they can no longer track you. This is either from you simply moving too fast for them to track or it can also cause client prediction code to become incredibly unreliable (ie. even if they are tracking you... you aren't really there) So it may not make you a god in the sense that you're nigh indestructible... but if you're good enough then it can easily make you harder to kill by leaps and bounds... pun definitely intended. The basic question is of ethical nature... "Just because you can do it, should you?"
I really don't want to turn this thread into another bhopping flame war. Everyone just needs to know that as useful and skillful as bhopping is, there exist very legitimate arguments against its use particularly in the public arena. Have all the fun you want with it on a LAN where everyone can just shout across the room and agree that bhopping is OK to use.
Back to the topic at hand, I don't think I'd mind having the quake-style jump in a training mode of sorts... but definitely not as part of actual gameplay. Its bad enough that bhopping doesn't really seem (to me) to fit well with the NS theme/gameplay/style/whatever... but having almost nonstop jumping seems kinda rediculous. It's already bad enough as it is now with the skilled bhoppers running around the place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't hard to track a bunnyhopper. It's hard to track a skilled ambusher or a crackbouncing pubhopper but they go too slow to get anything done
Either that a quake style jumping system <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd prefer quake-style jump queueing. That would be much better than a 3 jump, at least for me, because I currently use a 7 jump as a skulk.
If the dev team wants it to be easy why not just increase the speed of the skulk and remove bunny hopping?
At least to me it doesnt make sence to have it both ways... It should be hard like it is now, or totally itegrated everything else would just seem out of place. Atleast to me.
If the devs go the 3 jump script way. Make it toggle able? My "n" for example, turns 3 jump on and off. The only class that suffers from a 3 jump script is the jetpack.Everything else it helps or doesnt harm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. The more jumps in a jump script the slower you blink as a fade.
but this has been nagging me: what the heck is _special?
To answer this first consider the above post :
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Uh yeah, to enlighten the people saying bunnyhop is fine now, bunnyhopping was left in for the kharaa intentionally. It's also still a complicated action, and for skulks it takes even more work to bunnyhop successfully than in other games. New players and even long time players usually don't know how to bunnyhop, and as long as it's an intended feature, making it more accessible wouldn't hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is no secret that the devs intentionally left bhopping in to aid skulks. Thus in order for a skulk to perform the way it is intended one must assume that bhopping must be used to some extent. Thus, if a skulk does not know how to bhop then that player is automatically at a disadvantage. Instead of relying on a particular skill to create the intended feature/skill/balance, implement a standard feature that is activated automatically. In other words build the speed required into the skulk.... don't rely on the player knowing how to pull out that speed. This is not to say that bhopping couldn't be left in, but i feel the effect that bhopping should give should be minimal ie. 5-10% speed increase ablsolute max.
As to the rest of the post, I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. Essentially there should be a balance that exists at a skill level of 0... ie. if no one has any skill at all, the game is still technically balanced. Then in order to break the balance, one team has to have more skill than the other. I never intended to convey that two teams that are so disparate skill levels should somehow be equal regardless. I simply suggested that relying on a particular skill to effectively balance the game out gives a stark disadvantage to any player that does not know about or is not effective with that skill. Once you have a level playing field then the side with more skill should essentially win... though there are always the occasional flukes that make the game a little unpredictable and exciting at times.... but that's beside the point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Will you shut the hell up please?
Bunnyhopping is a skill, they just want to make it easier to learn. Hell if you wanted all the **** you just said then watch a person that bunnyhops. You are going ridiculously overboard with the idea of making bunnyhopping easier. NSLearn is doing a stupendous job of teach people how to bunnyhop. Anyone that has wanted to learn so far, HAS learned, no need for a damn tutorial that shows you step by step how to do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I was simply giving my honest opinion here. This is a discussion forum after all. If you don't like my opinion then you can very well point out the flaws that you see. But coming out in such a condescending manner as if my opinions simply aren't worth the bits it takes to represent them, then you my friend are both inconsiderate of my (and perhaps other's) honest opinion and performing a disservice to this forum community as a whole. I hate to sound preachy and almighty or anything, but just who the hell do you think you are? To quote Office Space, you sir, have lead a trite and meaningless life... and you are a very BAD person.
Then I would have to admit that you are a much better aim than I am.
No, your logic I believe is off.
Because bhop is something you must learn, it actually helps to progress the skill flow of the game.
At the bottem of skill, you have skulks who barely know how to move and track a marine, and the marine's hit with less than 10% of their bullets.
As you progress up the skill ladder, you get to the point where marines can aim relatively well, and the skulks are ambushing/moving around/using walls etc. I would estimate this to be at 50%-60% accuracy. At this point if the skulk does not learn how to bhop he's at a disadvantage.
Basically, you can't say the skulk who cannot bhop is at a disadvantage because the marine who cannot aim is at a disadvantage as well. So yeah, the bhop is a natural progression of skill.
It's a progression of aim skill vs. movement skill.
THere are many things that help your aim but are not exactly easy to find out.
For example, better crosshairs, removing mouse acceleration, making sure you don't have mouse lag, stuff like this is often ignored which really hurts your aim.
It's not apples and oranges because as you get better aim you kill more, as you go faster as a skulk you kill more.
Ive never agreed with the thing in the manual about newbies going marines. The easiest way to learn the maps is as alien, becuase you move around it much more, and have hive sight.
For example, better crosshairs, removing mouse acceleration, making sure you don't have mouse lag, stuff like this is often ignored which really hurts your aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see these things being a lot more comparable to bhopping because you'd have to know about them before you could implement them. But as you said yourself these things are often ignored. To be honest this is the first time i've ever even though of changing crosshairs or considering mouse acceleration. I've always just done with what I have in front of me assuming that it is what the devs intended.
But I still hold that learning to aim as a marine is comparable with learning to aim with a skulk. Using your own comparison, the better you learn to aim on either side of the fence, the more you kill.
Along that same argument you could say that the more you learn to bhop the better you are at killing... much like adding these custom crosshairs or tweaking your mouse settings. However this is a totally different class of "customizations" if you will. Also by this argument and your own statements, you would have to concede that customization is in a way related to skill, in that if you are able to customize accordingly, your skill is then enhanced. However this is a contradiction of popular opinion regarding scripting and such things... that being that scripting in no way increases one's skill. If the devs decided to take out any ability to script or bunnyhop or customize in any way, would you be willing to make the claim that the better players among us would inevitably become less skilled as a result?
Regardless, I cannot see a direct justification that movement speed and aiming are directly related. Aiming is an adaptive behaviour while movement speed is highly subject to the confines of the game engine... most people are either moving one of two speeds... slow or fast. Aiming only becomes difficult when the speed is erratic or anomalous (ie. a single bhopper on a server will likely be more successful than if all the team was bhopping... humans tend to reactively adapt to a "normalzed situation") I would argue that if everyone could infact bhop and did so almost all the time that the accuracy of a good marine would still seem rediculously good simply because he has adapted to an entire server of bhoppers. The only difference that would be made would be the time it takes for a skulk to close a distance. However, if this is the sole basis of the argument for allowing bhopping to exist in the first place, then why not simply increase the base speed of the skulk to allow skulks to close the distance faster.
Ive never agreed with the thing in the manual about newbies going marines. The easiest way to learn the maps is as alien, becuase you move around it much more, and have hive sight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luckily for us, the base skill is rarely level 0 so i think we can make a few small concessions. Those who come to NS have usually had at least a little experience with some other FPS before hopping on. Nevertheless, we cannot guarantee that any of the new guys are going to have the skills "required" to have a balanced game if in fact there is a certain level of skill required to balance the game. Such is the case when making the case that bhopping was left in to allow for the intended function of skulks. I simply think there are other, better, solutions to "balancing" aspects of the game.
Also making the observation that Level 0 skill based games might favor aliens only reinforces the theory that an enhancement such as bhopping simply isn't needed.... but only vaguely so I won't really go down that road too far.
...ftw(I probably got that above in the wrong order, I know, I'm an idiot, but whatever. Screw you all.)
<span style='color:red'>Edit: I got pwnt by Wither. Oh yeah, Adj, you suck.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ive never agreed with the thing in the manual about newbies going marines. The easiest way to learn the maps is as alien, becuase you move around it much more, and have hive sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its so they don't quit. A guy playing alien like a conventional FPS (where your line of sight is as lethal as your opponents, and hence you just hop out and blast away) will get frustrated really quickly. A guy marining like a conventional FPS will latch on rather quickly - he'll suck by NS standards, but hell knows he'll barely notice because he's still able to get lone Skulk kills.
- some native jump method (queued is easiest)
- remove the need for "sv_cheats 1" to see your ground speed or add some visual/ audio que for alien player speed increaing and decreasing
Having to start a local server with cheats on to learn how to do something in the game is extremely non-intuitive. Also, looking at the upper right hand corner (cl_showspeed) of the screen looking [instead of center] at a highly fluctuating numbers makes it very, very difficult to learn.
- add a small speed boost of XX units to a jumping skulk if the base speed is lower than ZZZ units
The hardest thing to learn when first starting is the first jump. If you have a poor starting speed, it will take quite a few hops before you reach a decent speed if at all. When first learning, it's quite common for a missed strafe/glide starting jump to actually reduce ones speed to well below normal skulk walking speed. (This relates to some user que for the player's speed)
This also removes a bit of the hop relying so heavily on frames per second. Lower FPS don't have the advantage of a high growth of floating point error accumulation.
Bhop is too hard to learn and master this way. It sure must be easier to learn. However It still must be a bit hard to master. Players must spend time to improve both movement and timing in different situations and environment.
Im against automating the Bhop. And Im against quake style jumping where pressing jump key any time in air guarantees your next jump will be perfect.
Or Im against any solution that need no timing skill at all...
I used to use a 5 jump script (I got 100-150 latency generally). It makes learning and mastering Bhop easy enough (even for a 32 year old man with slower reflexes, such as me ^_^) but still require some skill on timing...
just make the normal +jump, spam x amont of jump commands for only skulks and gorges. x must be decided carefully; not too much, not too less. There still must be some element of skill on timing; But without making it impossible for high latency or low FPS players. And making it for only skulks and gorges solves the jump spam problems with lerks and JPs.
There must be a way to keep an eye on your speed. Current speedometer is not useful, distracts your concentration. A solution using sound to indicate the acceleration will be much more usefull I guess... Something fits the movement... Something like subtle wind sound you hear as you run increasing as you speed up...
-gazOzz
Good argument for bhopping... but I still say we can a) come up with a better solution than just bhopping or b) come to a compromise that ends up boosting speed a little bit on the base speed and restricting the bhopping speedboost moderately.
Frankly I'm all about option be because it can be the simplest to implement and still keeps both sides of the argument happy. It would decrease the reliance of bhopping to provide the "intended effect" with the skulks while still allowing those with bhopping skills to still generally move about the map faster. Regardless, there should be a speed limit put in place that prevents skulks from attaining "utterly invincible" speeds as these speeds not only make it difficult for a great many people to track said skulk, but these speeds also make client-side prediction code very unreliable.
For the look of it, it would solve alot of problems considering this never ending debate. Atleast, id assume it would. :o
Walljumping would be an interesting alternative....that, or at least make it so a skulk can actually navigate along walls most of the time without getting stuck. People only ever make use of the ceiling and walls to get into vents/ambush spots. Can't make use of it as an evasive tactic unless you're in specific areas where the walls are smooth.
Movement quirks like the ones that have been discovered in HL over the past ~5 years (ramp sliding, gliding, bhop, sharking, chophop etc) will probably be the thing I miss most when HL2 comes out and everyone starts playing that. I dunno the HL engine just has a very crisp feel, like I know what's gonna happen if I do x. Other engines seem too 'smooth' and unpredictable imo... like Q3 and UT series.