The Thoughtful Zombie Topic
BobTheJanitor
Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Members, NS1 Playtester
Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Members, NS1 Playtester
in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">help me make sense of the senseless</div> So I was watching the DVD of "Dawn of the Dead" last night, and it got me started thinking. I started thinking that I wanted a sandwich. So I went and had one. And that sandwich got me started thinking about zombies.
Let's face it. Hollywood zombies just don't make sense. They're reanimated corpses who hunger for the flesh of the living, yes? Across almost any zombie film, that pretty much remains the same. But once you get past that bit, everything pretty much falls apart.
Whether their condition is caused by virus or voodoo, why, exactly, do they hunger for the flesh of the living? Are they going to get any nutritional value out of it? As far as I've seen, zombies tend to more rip people to shreds than actually snack on them. And it seems far more popular for them to just take a nibble on an arm (which can be concealed by a sleeve) and then shamble off, leaving the bite victim to wander around turning bluish (not that anyone ever notices) and saying things like, "I'm fine, dammit. I just need to... rest... for a bit." And then later saying things like "Rrrawrgh... Uuuuuuurrrgghhhhh...."
And on that subject, what is it about the bite that causes such quick death and subsequent zombification? If we are to accept the often touted 'virulent plague' theory, this is truly a medical miracle. An infection so destructive as to cause death within as much as a few hours, and as little as a few minutes (depending on important plot considerations) and then, about ten seconds or up to five minutes later (again consulting the all important plot), causing complete reanimation. One wonders why, if the body still seems to work so well, the person dies in the first place? Doesn't a human body require a bit of trauma of some sort in order to die? Cessation of brain function does not, generally, happen for no apparent reason. (except in threads about certain subjects, but that's neither here nor there) And this leads into the question of why smashing or shooting the brain or severing the head causes the zombie to die. Or should we say 'deanimate'? I mean, it's not like they're really using it for anything, are they?
So getting down to a point (or so I hope), is there any way to make sense out of zombies? I mean, zombies work because people have a zombie shaped hole in their minds that just wants to accept the walking, flesh eating dead. But once you get past the initial fact that they are entertaining and provide the answer for that ancient question, "Why would you want a shotgun?" you're left wondering how they can make any sense at all. Is there any way, narratively speaking, that you could make sense out of zombies? Most zombie flicks manage to avoid this by having most of the world wiped out and zombified, so that people aren't walking around and saying things like "But they don't make any SENSE! How can they exist at all?" Or at least, if they are, the question is usually answered by having their arm turned into an appetizer.
So there's my challenge for the forums at large. Assume that you can use anything to explain zombies away as long as it follows a sort of narrative cohesiveness. Extra points for being able to come up with an adequate scientific explanation. Extra mocking if you try and simply say magic. I will personally edit your post to say "I am an unoriginal muffin-head!" if you respond with "Nanites!" This is not an invitation for a stream of one word responses.
Now go forth and conquer, my minions.
Let's face it. Hollywood zombies just don't make sense. They're reanimated corpses who hunger for the flesh of the living, yes? Across almost any zombie film, that pretty much remains the same. But once you get past that bit, everything pretty much falls apart.
Whether their condition is caused by virus or voodoo, why, exactly, do they hunger for the flesh of the living? Are they going to get any nutritional value out of it? As far as I've seen, zombies tend to more rip people to shreds than actually snack on them. And it seems far more popular for them to just take a nibble on an arm (which can be concealed by a sleeve) and then shamble off, leaving the bite victim to wander around turning bluish (not that anyone ever notices) and saying things like, "I'm fine, dammit. I just need to... rest... for a bit." And then later saying things like "Rrrawrgh... Uuuuuuurrrgghhhhh...."
And on that subject, what is it about the bite that causes such quick death and subsequent zombification? If we are to accept the often touted 'virulent plague' theory, this is truly a medical miracle. An infection so destructive as to cause death within as much as a few hours, and as little as a few minutes (depending on important plot considerations) and then, about ten seconds or up to five minutes later (again consulting the all important plot), causing complete reanimation. One wonders why, if the body still seems to work so well, the person dies in the first place? Doesn't a human body require a bit of trauma of some sort in order to die? Cessation of brain function does not, generally, happen for no apparent reason. (except in threads about certain subjects, but that's neither here nor there) And this leads into the question of why smashing or shooting the brain or severing the head causes the zombie to die. Or should we say 'deanimate'? I mean, it's not like they're really using it for anything, are they?
So getting down to a point (or so I hope), is there any way to make sense out of zombies? I mean, zombies work because people have a zombie shaped hole in their minds that just wants to accept the walking, flesh eating dead. But once you get past the initial fact that they are entertaining and provide the answer for that ancient question, "Why would you want a shotgun?" you're left wondering how they can make any sense at all. Is there any way, narratively speaking, that you could make sense out of zombies? Most zombie flicks manage to avoid this by having most of the world wiped out and zombified, so that people aren't walking around and saying things like "But they don't make any SENSE! How can they exist at all?" Or at least, if they are, the question is usually answered by having their arm turned into an appetizer.
So there's my challenge for the forums at large. Assume that you can use anything to explain zombies away as long as it follows a sort of narrative cohesiveness. Extra points for being able to come up with an adequate scientific explanation. Extra mocking if you try and simply say magic. I will personally edit your post to say "I am an unoriginal muffin-head!" if you respond with "Nanites!" This is not an invitation for a stream of one word responses.
Now go forth and conquer, my minions.
Comments
It's because they're really big jerks.
Meh, who needs a guide? Give a man a shotgun and a zombie and if he be a real man, he shall know how to proceed.
*And in dawn of the dead they dont attack the dog.. why not? doesnt he have any flesh..*
When Lions get hungry why don't they eat eachother? Same answer.
I think they always guner for flesh because, hey, what else would they hunger for? Soy beans? I mean comon now.
But a scientific explaination for their existance is not going to happen since they arent real <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(didn't see that one coming, did ya?)
original post, so people get the joke:</span>
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I am an unoriginal muffin-head!
<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>This Post has been edited by <b>BobTheJanitor</b> on Oct 27 2004, 01:37 PM </span>
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That's the kind of thinking that <i>will get innocents killed</i>! Oh yes, lets leave the problem alone until it comes up and bites us, <b>literally</b>!
That's the kind of thinking that <i>will get innocents killed</i>! Oh yes, lets leave the problem alone until it comes up and bites us, <b>literally</b>! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
At last, justification for all the research I've done on how to defeat the Imperial Navy. Now I only have to figure out the weak points on a completed Death Star II and give my information to the UN, and we'll be prepared for anything. If anything is the Imperial Navy.
And in the case of the viral infection reanimation, you never "die" at all. The virus merely renders certain parts of the brain inactive and useless, leading to pure rage, cannibalism, uncoordination, and immunity to pain and fear. When the entire brain is severed, well then the victim can really die - the virus won't let him die before that. Read "Sahara" (it's a story with Dirk Pitt's the main character, wellknown series) to see a good example of a story of humans being corrupted by an infection and losing control of themselves. Nasty stuff.
I believe that the 'virulent plague' solution is the best and most easily explained solution. I believe that some form of really nasty bacteria of sorts take over a corpse because live humans are protected by their superb epidermal layer. Now, the bacteria multiplies extremely fast, going through the entire human corpse, taking over the brain mainly and the nerves as well so they can control movement. Now, the bacteria is definately not that intelligent of a species, thus we know that they can't formulate any form of intelligent speech past the "uuuuuuugh, aaaaaaaagh, blurrrrrr" stuff. The bacteria do have do have a primary drive as all livings things do, and that is to 'procreate', increase their numbers as much as they can so their existance continues. Now to do this, the bacteria uses the giant vessels, which are now defined as zombies, to achieve that goal. Because of Rigor Mortis, you see the awkwardness of their jerky movements and the decayed color of flesh. The bacteria moves the zombies to find more vessels to inhabit, whether they are dead or living. In order to infect a living vessel however, they need to break through our protective epidermal layer so they need to bite us, scratch us, whatever, thereby infecting the human and taking over his functions. When the body is taken over, the person is dead since the brain no longer controls the body, the bacteria does. The body starts to decay as well, giving them that greyish hue.
The unrealistic part is zombies tearing humans to pieces, they don't or aren't suppose to 'feast' on humans, so Hollywood pretty much butchers it up for higher ratings from 'Ooooh and ewwww' effects. Tada, I love being bored at work.
Other zombies follow different rules. RotLD zombies, for instance only eat brains and retain all higher functions and have an immunity to headshots. Why? Because it hurts to be dead. If you cannot accept that answer then I just can't help you.
I <3 zombies FAR too much.
That's why the religious sort of explanations have always seemed more sensible, really. If you're going to have walking dead that can truly be walking and dead, there most likely needs to be some sort of controlling force. "Demon possesed body" at least fits the bill slightly better. This is where you get your Doom 3 style zombies, I suppose.
The bacteria that acts like a parasite is a decent explanation. It manages to avoid the mucking around in spiritual matters explanation and stick to something that is mostly scientific. I think I like that one best of all thus far. Anyone else have any explanations that fit?
The thing is, I'm quite obsessive when it comes to things making narrative sense. Not real factual sense, mind you. We are talking about the walking dead, after all. But from the narrative standpoint, that is from the point of view of a character inside a story world where all this would be taking place, there should be some explanation for why things happen the way they do. This is where zombie movies always irk me, because they never bother to explain anything. And even if there's no reason for the characters in the story to have any idea, the author should <i>always</i> know why things work in the story the way that they do. If the author doesn't know, it comes through. Viewers or readers can pick up on it, and it leaves them feeling vaguely cheated. And then they come to message boards and post long vague rants about it.
Other zombies follow different rules. RotLD zombies, for instance only eat brains and retain all higher functions and have an immunity to headshots. Why? Because it hurts to be dead. If you cannot accept that answer then I just can't help you.
I <3 zombies FAR too much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He knows what he is talking about. The rest of you.. GET OUT! BAD ZOMBIE NOOBS.
I felt anything beyond Night of the Living Dead (60's version) by Romero is a lame rip off. The new Dawn of the Dead sucked ****, as did 28 Days and any other rip off. All you need to do is screw up the brain, even a screw driver in the ear. Anything more than a good load of .22 is simply overkill.
Yeah, that works for 28 Days LAter zombies, which is why they aren't technically classified by zombie movie fans as zombies, but in all other zombie movies where a disease is the cause, the infected definately DIE. Their hearts stop and their brains shut down for a little while, then the disease brings em back.
Yeah, that works for 28 Days LAter zombies, which is why they aren't technically classified by zombie movie fans as zombies, but in all other zombie movies where a disease is the cause, the infected definately DIE. Their hearts stop and their brains shut down for a little while, then the disease brings em back. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that begs the question; what kind of virus would be able to kill off a body, then cannabalize it's left over organs and bring them back for usage, <b>before</b> the cells waste away?
Well technically it's not exactly a super-huge feat, considering virii are never "alive" in the first place, it's kinda easy for them to "survive" space. Heck, bacteria can survive trips through space; we know a couple hitched rides on the Mars landers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This reply stopped being funny years ago. Stop it.
Well technically it's not exactly a super-huge feat, considering virii are never "alive" in the first place, it's kinda easy for them to "survive" space. Heck, bacteria can survive trips through space; we know a couple hitched rides on the Mars landers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? Virii are indeed living creatures... I'll give you two guesses as to why food has to be kept out of certain temperature ranges... and here's a hint - it's not to keep Bigfoot away by burning the roof of his mouth.
Agreed, all they do is reproduce. I think the idea is that they originated from RNA that was removed from a cell and formed its own protein covering and proceded to use living cells to recreate itself.
I mean if the blood was to congeal, you'd go blue and die pretty quick. Certain antigens can make blood verrrrrrrrry sticky. If its carried in body fluids then a bite is a sure way to pass on the contagion, and if the zombie is perpetually hungry then it is going into overdrive on saliva production.
Muscle movement? I'd go with stored energy. Lactic acid build up and since the blood is virtually clotted the acid remains in the muscle, breaking it down into energy. Means the zombie can shuffle about, has basic motor activity. Will eventually rot and fall apart due to the acid build up, mind you.
Removal of the brain is fatal because the limbic system isn't around to give any more commands. Fundamentally the zombie is still "alive" but lacks the mental stimulus to hunt and eat. Read up on cockroaches and how hard they are to kill. You remove their brain yet they live on, and only die of STARVATION. Fundamentally identical to what would kill a zombie when decapitated.
The limbic system controls the stimuli response, you'd probably find a zombie is repulsed by the smell of other zombies and thus seeks to escape them. Alternatively it may be seeking other humans to "help" it. Interference with the limbic system would explain their apparent ignorance of pain. They could approach a human on a "get help" response, then respond violently to the human's rejection. As for feeding, the zombie will not eat carrion. Warm flesh will be consumed with gusto, but once cold will be rejected. Interestingly this means that zombie "packs" would maintain a stable size -
Lets say it takes 10 zombies to kill and devour a human to the point where it cannot be reanimated. That 10 zombie pack will remain at that size until inevitably a zombie dies. This means less chance of killing a human, which conversely means a greater chance of a new zombie to take the pack up to 10. Bigger packs will decrease in size as the zombies starve, smaller packs will grow until the zombies can entirely devour their prey.
Assuming blood clots are a factor in the zombie plague its reasonable to assume that infected flesh tastes "different". Again why zombies would abandon a meal.
RECENT dead could be reanimated, as could anyone not interned within a sealed coffin (we assume the virus is able to get into the water table and therefore the soil). The long dead would have very little muscle left, and their brain would probably have liquefied too, just as effective as removing the zombie's head. Shallow grave corpses should be able to move the earth above them, whereas most coffins are hard to get out of.
I think that covers the bulk of it.
There's always the possibility of a parasitic process which "zombifies" the host and drives him to infect other, healthy hosts. Happens to many insects, the parasite modifies their behaviour.
Edit - for clarification I'm largely thinking of traditional shambler Romero zombies. No pulse, moderate memory, tendency to travel in packs, clotted blood, nibbling on corpses, etc.
my 2 cents eh.
It was in some strange zombie movie were gas made everithing dead alive again. The zombies could talk and think, oddly enoughe.
The "live" people the movie somehow captured a zombie who was cut into half. They strapped her on a table then started to ask her out, one of the questions was: "Why do you want to eat our brains?" and the zombie answered "Brains eases the pain". So in short zombies are running around in great pain and eating brains make's the pain go away or at least make's it slightly less intensive.