No, no. You misunderstand. You can't tell me how to form my opinion. That's what makes it MY opinion. See what I'm saying.
Because if I can't form my opinion on whatever I want, what's the point in even having it. If we are all to be fed some set of "facts," look at them using a certain set of standards, and compute out a correct solution (which is what you're saying, right?), then how's that any different than a dictatorship?
One of the founding beliefs in this country that you won't find anywhere in the constitution is that we don't have to believe the same ways. If I want to go off and vote for Bush because my instincts tell me not to trust Kerry, that's a-okay, because this is America! And at least I know I'm free.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited November 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-rob6264+Nov 7 2004, 11:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rob6264 @ Nov 7 2004, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, no. You misunderstand. You can't tell me how to form my opinion. That's what makes it MY opinion. See what I'm saying.
Because if I can't form my opinion on whatever I want, what's the point in even having it. If we are all to be fed some set of "facts," look at them using a certain set of standards, and compute out a correct solution (which is what you're saying, right?), then how's that any different than a dictatorship?
One of the founding beliefs in this country that you won't find anywhere in the constitution is that we don't have to believe the same ways. If I want to go off and vote for Bush because my instincts tell me not to trust Kerry, that's a-okay, because this is America! And at least I know I'm free. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are of course free to form your opinion however you want. However, rationality dictates that there are ways one can go about forming an opinion that are most effective. I'm assuming we are trying to uphold rationality here, if for no other reason than we use "irrational" as an insult.
<b>A mathematical analogy:</b>
Imagine approaches plotted through a number of dimensions, with utility values of each plotted on an axis orthogonal to all of the inputs. Monotonicity ensures an maximum utility value over all approaches. We can say therefore that there is a correct opinion given some well-defined utilty function.
However, suppose we can only arrive at this value through incremental maximization. If we were to all start with the same opinion, the probability of arriving at the optimal solution is very small. We would arrive at a local maximum nearest to all of us that could be far below the global maximum. However, if we start with our opinions dotted all over the map, there is a high probability that some of us will end up near the absolute maximum, and incremental improvement will get us all there.
Therefore we can say that the role of individual opinions is to seed our maximization function. We can then through the well defined process of rational discourse arrive at the single approach that maximizes the value we are seeking to maximize.
(For anyone interested, I basically just described an approach already used in AI research. Check out "particle filtering" for more information.)
[sarcasm]But that would make you a stupid hick Rob ?! Liberals are <u>obviously</u> more educated and have a stronger grip on economics and the like. C'mon! Doesn't social security work great!? And a socialist state will lead to a utopia where everyone is equal. Why can't you just think like them?[/sarcasm]
Moultano, it seems like more than anything is that you disagree over premise. From a philosophical approach the soundness of a statement is only based if the premises are indeed true. Any statement with just one faulty premise can have a valid conclusion but can be false. It seems to me that what Rob is trying to say is that if someone is telling you there can have a certain premise than it destroys the opinion itself, because the only thing left is to point out their poor logic in drawing a conclusion and inevitably results in just one spoonfed answer.
I've gotta tell you. What you just wrote scares the living daylights out of me. It is cold, efficient, and <b>in-human</b>.
Our mistakes are what define us. Without variety, we are nothing. What you describe is not far from the absence of free-will. You know that, right? A calculated world of right and wrong, black and white with few grey areas in between, in any scale. I know for myself I see most things in black and white, but I'm not everybody. Alot of people see the shades of gray in morality, and so we are all different, and all important in that respect.
Out of our difference comes unity, and without our difference we are a collective. Blah, where the hell am I going with this.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, "stop trying to tell people to love Kerry!" :/
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-rob6264+Nov 8 2004, 12:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rob6264 @ Nov 8 2004, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've gotta tell you. What you just wrote scares the living daylights out of me. It is cold, efficient, and <b>in-human</b>.
Our mistakes are what define us. Without variety, we are nothing. What you describe is not far from the absence of free-will. You know that, right? A calculated world of right and wrong, black and white with few grey areas in between, in any scale. I know for myself I see most things in black and white, but I'm not everybody. Alot of people see the shades of gray in morality, and so we are all different, and all important in that respect.
Out of our difference comes unity, and without our difference we are a collective. Blah, where the hell am I going with this.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, "stop trying to tell people to love Kerry!" :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In order for the method I described to be effective in changing conditions, a certain amount of randomness is in fact essential. So even that has a place within the model. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> For me, there isn't any surpise that rationality and sociality has triumphed over the years. It's mathematically provable to be effective. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(I'm not telling you to love Kerry. I'm just trying to keep everybody honest and open. Once people start saying they "believe" something specific about the nature of a person, things really aren't open for debate anymore.)
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I think this has gone a little too far off topic.
I'm going to lock it, but this was my original aim with this topic... liberals and conservatives alike, think about it:
George Bush is our president for the next four years, for better or for worse. More voters than have turned out in a decade cast their opinions on the second, and Bush won by over three million votes - about 3% of the total vote. Is it a strong majority? No, but it *is* a majority.
I am a liberal living in a country run by conservatives. I disagree with them on many, many things. But it's my country, and I want to try and understand their view on the matter. I want to understand that even if I disagree with them, they're still trying to act in the best interest of my country.
I'm hopeful for the next four years. Why? Because I can be hopeful, or I can be pessimistic. Or I can move to Canada, except they don't want me and it wouldn't help America become the country I'd like to see it become, anyway.
So here's what you do, liberals: BE ACTIVE. Republican or Democrat, your Representatives and Senators are there to serve their consituents -- to serve YOU. Know what they're talking about in Congress. If you have an opinion, write them a letter and let them know! *Especially* if your stance is different from what theirs might be, this is the only way to let them know that there *is* part of their constituency that feels differently. _____
I started this thread to find out where I and other Democrats can meet the Republicans and come to consensus. This nation is split 50-50 (or 49-51, or 48-52, whatever - it's CLOSE), and our laws and policies should reflect that. And with a little effort on everyone's part, they can.
Comments
Because if I can't form my opinion on whatever I want, what's the point in even having it. If we are all to be fed some set of "facts," look at them using a certain set of standards, and compute out a correct solution (which is what you're saying, right?), then how's that any different than a dictatorship?
One of the founding beliefs in this country that you won't find anywhere in the constitution is that we don't have to believe the same ways. If I want to go off and vote for Bush because my instincts tell me not to trust Kerry, that's a-okay, because this is America! And at least I know I'm free.
Because if I can't form my opinion on whatever I want, what's the point in even having it. If we are all to be fed some set of "facts," look at them using a certain set of standards, and compute out a correct solution (which is what you're saying, right?), then how's that any different than a dictatorship?
One of the founding beliefs in this country that you won't find anywhere in the constitution is that we don't have to believe the same ways. If I want to go off and vote for Bush because my instincts tell me not to trust Kerry, that's a-okay, because this is America! And at least I know I'm free. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are of course free to form your opinion however you want. However, rationality dictates that there are ways one can go about forming an opinion that are most effective. I'm assuming we are trying to uphold rationality here, if for no other reason than we use "irrational" as an insult.
<b>A mathematical analogy:</b>
Imagine approaches plotted through a number of dimensions, with utility values of each plotted on an axis orthogonal to all of the inputs. Monotonicity ensures an maximum utility value over all approaches. We can say therefore that there is a correct opinion given some well-defined utilty function.
However, suppose we can only arrive at this value through incremental maximization. If we were to all start with the same opinion, the probability of arriving at the optimal solution is very small. We would arrive at a local maximum nearest to all of us that could be far below the global maximum. However, if we start with our opinions dotted all over the map, there is a high probability that some of us will end up near the absolute maximum, and incremental improvement will get us all there.
Therefore we can say that the role of individual opinions is to seed our maximization function. We can then through the well defined process of rational discourse arrive at the single approach that maximizes the value we are seeking to maximize.
(For anyone interested, I basically just described an approach already used in AI research. Check out "particle filtering" for more information.)
Moultano, it seems like more than anything is that you disagree over premise. From a philosophical approach the soundness of a statement is only based if the premises are indeed true. Any statement with just one faulty premise can have a valid conclusion but can be false. It seems to me that what Rob is trying to say is that if someone is telling you there can have a certain premise than it destroys the opinion itself, because the only thing left is to point out their poor logic in drawing a conclusion and inevitably results in just one spoonfed answer.
Our mistakes are what define us. Without variety, we are nothing. What you describe is not far from the absence of free-will. You know that, right? A calculated world of right and wrong, black and white with few grey areas in between, in any scale. I know for myself I see most things in black and white, but I'm not everybody. Alot of people see the shades of gray in morality, and so we are all different, and all important in that respect.
Out of our difference comes unity, and without our difference we are a collective. Blah, where the hell am I going with this.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, "stop trying to tell people to love Kerry!" :/
Our mistakes are what define us. Without variety, we are nothing. What you describe is not far from the absence of free-will. You know that, right? A calculated world of right and wrong, black and white with few grey areas in between, in any scale. I know for myself I see most things in black and white, but I'm not everybody. Alot of people see the shades of gray in morality, and so we are all different, and all important in that respect.
Out of our difference comes unity, and without our difference we are a collective. Blah, where the hell am I going with this.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, "stop trying to tell people to love Kerry!" :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order for the method I described to be effective in changing conditions, a certain amount of randomness is in fact essential. So even that has a place within the model. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> For me, there isn't any surpise that rationality and sociality has triumphed over the years. It's mathematically provable to be effective. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(I'm not telling you to love Kerry. I'm just trying to keep everybody honest and open. Once people start saying they "believe" something specific about the nature of a person, things really aren't open for debate anymore.)
I'm going to lock it, but this was my original aim with this topic... liberals and conservatives alike, think about it:
George Bush is our president for the next four years, for better or for worse. More voters than have turned out in a decade cast their opinions on the second, and Bush won by over three million votes - about 3% of the total vote. Is it a strong majority? No, but it *is* a majority.
I am a liberal living in a country run by conservatives. I disagree with them on many, many things. But it's my country, and I want to try and understand their view on the matter. I want to understand that even if I disagree with them, they're still trying to act in the best interest of my country.
I'm hopeful for the next four years. Why? Because I can be hopeful, or I can be pessimistic. Or I can move to Canada, except they don't want me and it wouldn't help America become the country I'd like to see it become, anyway.
So here's what you do, liberals: BE ACTIVE. Republican or Democrat, your Representatives and Senators are there to serve their consituents -- to serve YOU. Know what they're talking about in Congress. If you have an opinion, write them a letter and let them know! *Especially* if your stance is different from what theirs might be, this is the only way to let them know that there *is* part of their constituency that feels differently.
_____
I started this thread to find out where I and other Democrats can meet the Republicans and come to consensus. This nation is split 50-50 (or 49-51, or 48-52, whatever - it's CLOSE), and our laws and policies should reflect that. And with a little effort on everyone's part, they can.