Mds
WildChicken
Join Date: 2004-08-25 Member: 30891Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-08-25 Member: 30891Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Why we were wrong all along</div> The MDS chain, a grossly underestimated approach at classic ns.
For those of you who do not know, MDS refers to MovementDefenseSensory, being the 3 chamber types, built in that order.
MC holds the 3 best upgrades for all the low-tier alien classes. Having extra armor can be good at times, but what does it matter if your alternative is to close the distance between you and the marine in such a short time that he does not get a chance to get shots in on you? Or, even better, ambushing him with silence, killing him before he even realises you're there? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why would you need 1 good regen fade when you can have 4 great celerity or silence skulks who can be all over the map at the same time, where the fade can only be at 1 point at any given time?
Celerity:
Skulks - Close the gap between yourself and the marine in half the amount of time. Also allows you to dodge much more efficiently, moving at a pace where some marines actually have trouble keeping up the tracking.
Gorges - Outrun those pesky marines if you don't know how to bhop.
Lerks - Ideal for any combatminded lerk, effectively increasing flight speed to a such point that any standard marine is unable to track it.
Silence:
Skulks - Ambush anyone?
Gorges - Allows you to camp somewhere obvious without being noticed because noone knows you're around. "Also allows "PHANTOM SPIT OF DEWM"" -Quote BlueNovember
Lerk - Not as popular as the other upgrades for the lerk, this also provides some ambushing potential.
Adrenaline:
Skulks - Not useful until hive2.
Gorges - Perfect for that frontline healing gorge, allowing you to spam heals faster than even the best of DCs.
Lerks - Good for any support lerk, giving nearly unlimited spore/umbra spamming abilities.
Around-the-map uses for this chamber:
Put MCs in random vents and similar unreachable (By normal, non-JP, non-mined marine) locations to allow quick retreat to hive, to save it from a siege or similar assault.
The energy rejuvenation. Slap one in places such as junction vent on eclipse, get a lerk in there with spores. GG.
At an outpost, to further enhance the gorges healspam.
Early game requires mobility, something both sides lack. MCs make up for this by allowing all the alien classes to greatly enhance their movement speed, hence allowing them to control larger portions of the map with ease.
And, to counter the first wave of "criticism":
If you really believe in DC as being the end-all chamber, then don't bother replying. This thread is intended for discussion, not flaming.
For those of you who do not know, MDS refers to MovementDefenseSensory, being the 3 chamber types, built in that order.
MC holds the 3 best upgrades for all the low-tier alien classes. Having extra armor can be good at times, but what does it matter if your alternative is to close the distance between you and the marine in such a short time that he does not get a chance to get shots in on you? Or, even better, ambushing him with silence, killing him before he even realises you're there? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why would you need 1 good regen fade when you can have 4 great celerity or silence skulks who can be all over the map at the same time, where the fade can only be at 1 point at any given time?
Celerity:
Skulks - Close the gap between yourself and the marine in half the amount of time. Also allows you to dodge much more efficiently, moving at a pace where some marines actually have trouble keeping up the tracking.
Gorges - Outrun those pesky marines if you don't know how to bhop.
Lerks - Ideal for any combatminded lerk, effectively increasing flight speed to a such point that any standard marine is unable to track it.
Silence:
Skulks - Ambush anyone?
Gorges - Allows you to camp somewhere obvious without being noticed because noone knows you're around. "Also allows "PHANTOM SPIT OF DEWM"" -Quote BlueNovember
Lerk - Not as popular as the other upgrades for the lerk, this also provides some ambushing potential.
Adrenaline:
Skulks - Not useful until hive2.
Gorges - Perfect for that frontline healing gorge, allowing you to spam heals faster than even the best of DCs.
Lerks - Good for any support lerk, giving nearly unlimited spore/umbra spamming abilities.
Around-the-map uses for this chamber:
Put MCs in random vents and similar unreachable (By normal, non-JP, non-mined marine) locations to allow quick retreat to hive, to save it from a siege or similar assault.
The energy rejuvenation. Slap one in places such as junction vent on eclipse, get a lerk in there with spores. GG.
At an outpost, to further enhance the gorges healspam.
Early game requires mobility, something both sides lack. MCs make up for this by allowing all the alien classes to greatly enhance their movement speed, hence allowing them to control larger portions of the map with ease.
And, to counter the first wave of "criticism":
If you really believe in DC as being the end-all chamber, then don't bother replying. This thread is intended for discussion, not flaming.
Comments
SPIT OF DEWM!
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nub-ifcation of topic asside, we must address the lost advantages of DC.
There aren't any.
Anything DC can do MC can do better. Why shrug off the damage with regen when you can avoid it alltogether with clerity? Why take more damage with carapace when you can deal more damage with adren. (Hmm. 2nd example does not hold true as well, but my point stands.)
Clerity is possibly the most useful upgrade, evar. Period. The increased mobility (which is a KEY part of NS; fade without blink, skulk without its speed, map control...) is staggering.
The only factor that MC lacks is the healing of nearby players. However a clerity lifeform can return to hive damn fast anyway. Field MCs make this even easier. :Shock:, you could even find a gorge to heal you, :shock:.
WoLs will suffer, but who cares? When was the last time you've seen a WoL hold its own? Or more accurately, been as useful as lifeform upgrades of the same cost?
But usually in the beginning, I don't spend resources on upgrades as a skulk. So it doesn't really matter, but celerity really does improve the usefulness of a skulk in early game.
I agree that field MCs are extremely underrated, especially for lerks/gorges, and instant transportation. However, if it's a close game, I'd much rather have DCs than MCs. I've played on servers with passive regen, and MCs are actually extremely viable there.
If they spend all their time laming up CC hive, take maint+ecl? MCs allow fast movement, making it easier to hold the 2 outer hives. If they spend all their res locking down the hive, do a quick and decisive rush on MS and clear it out, or clear out all their RTs.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, I find that I would rather save the res for a fade/hive, than upgrade my skulk every time I spawn, so MCs are almost useless to me as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any decent skulk with celerity will easily uphold a 2:1 KD with celerity early on, making the upgrade pay for itself + a little extra which can go into hivebuilding or fading or whatever. Your example here also speaks for itself, as CC itself does not really block any choke points or another points of interest (Besides the hive, of course, which you can easily clear when you've taken the 2 other hives). Now you can say "Ok but if they lock down 2 hives?" Well, if you let them lock down 2 hives, all the regen fades in the world wouldn't make a difference, as marines tend not to (SHOCK!) just lame up a hive and then leave it to rot (Well I know I don't).
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've played on servers with passive regen, and MCs are actually extremely viable there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Servers that run gamealtering plugins such as the one you have just mentioned are not worth mentioning when discussing strategies/tactics. Any strategy developed on one such server is most likely to fail when exposed to a plugin free server.
Servers that run gamealtering plugins such as the one you have just mentioned are not worth mentioning when discussing strategies/tactics. Any strategy developed on one such server is most likely to fail when exposed to a plugin free server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's a bit harsh. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> It's an interesting addtion to the discussion. You and your high-and-mighty unspoiled servers and 1k config files. And default models. Sounds. Sprites. Bah. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...
I still think a clerity fade could take out a lock down. 300 150 is a fair whack of health. PG -> 1/2 of tfac in probably one sweep. Elec rt next to pg would probably mean you would have to heal before taking the ffac, but it could be done. 2 fades would make light work of it tbh.
Next PCW we play I'll try it me thinks.
TTFN
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
SM5
</span>
hard to pull off in pubs but dangerously effective in clan matches.
hard to pull off in pubs but dangerously effective in clan matches. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For now I'll take the best of both worlds and try it in a clan-stacked pub. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Apparently you forget that NS is a game that revolves around teamplay, and as such a fade should not be clearing out the locked down hive by itself. A gorge or 2 to assist the fade by healing it is FAR more effective than any defense upgrade will ever be, hence allowing a single celer/adren fade to clear a locked down hive in half the amount of time it would take a regen/cara fade. If you reckon that DCs are more effective in such a situation, you have apparently never tried those seldom heard of hacks called teamwork.
edit: keep in mind that benefitting the skulks doesn't matter much, despite the fact that they can use any combination reasonably well. Since a single marine with a few upgrades and a shotty/hmg can demolish skulks, 4+ marines in the same room simply aren't going to be dislodged without assistance from higher lifeforms.
Single upgrade/one hive skulks are very often not worth the two points, so definately don't make them your main beneficiaries of chamber choice.
To be quite honest you only need DC midgame when you've to worry about marines getting better weapons and gun ups.
DC I find ends up used when the team really lacks any skill at killing the enemy. In which case DC only drags out an inevitable marine win. Learn to make the most of your alien classes then you can take full benefit of MC first.
If I was playing a pcw I would prob go MC first, but on bad/medium pubs, most players don't bother to spend 2 res on their skulks, which is why DC works for the only good fade or two on the team who is gonna have to do all the work.
A good comm was using a relocate to station access on eclipse, I went lerk asap so I could tie up and gas half the team constantly, I NEEDED dc there cos they had me pretty boxed in, I'm not a great lerk but it saved me having to run the gauntlet to the hive (maint) to get healed everytime.
I say MC's for pcw/clan games and DC for most pubs with average joe's.
Apparently you forget that NS is a game that revolves around teamplay, and as such a fade should not be clearing out the locked down hive by itself. A gorge or 2 to assist the fade by healing it is FAR more effective than any defense upgrade will ever be, hence allowing a single celer/adren fade to clear a locked down hive in half the amount of time it would take a regen/cara fade. If you reckon that DCs are more effective in such a situation, you have apparently never tried those seldom heard of hacks called teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find your sarcasm a touch disrespectful, normally when I open my mouth and say something dumb I expect a flood of mean replys, in this case I was simply stating an observation that I have made in my 2 years and some change of playing NS in EVERY LEVEL of competition. So please don't be disrespectful of myself or anyone else if they don't have it coming,
thanks.
Moving on I never said that MCs first can't overcome a well laid out marine strat, I simply said that it is a HINDERANCE if they take a hive from you, even hindered people can win, its just harder.
Mcs provide the BEST upgrades for the aliens, but losing a fade or two is hard to cope with, remember just because teamwork is possible, doesn't mean by any stretch that it is somehow automatic. Some people mute EVERYONE, some people are new to the game, and a select few are total dumbasses that won't help the team because they are too busy voting republican... or whever else dumb people do[that comment is worthy of flaming... just so ya know]. All I was doing was offering some Food For Thought... since I am a member of F F T and all. We can disagree, its healthy, immagine a world where everyone agreed... ew. But save the infalamitory comments until after I know you are just trying to be funny or whatever, otherwise you might offend me...
Thats it
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
SM5
</span>
But Adj, you're crazy, DCs break lockdowns with regen!!!!
Wrong, young nublet, MCs break hive lockdowns. How, you ask? Simple: drop the hive that's locked down. Then hit the movement chambers. Suddenly the entire alien team is in the hive, and if you were smart and kept the marines busy, suddenly they're spread out and not able to phase in time. Focus everyone's fire on the PG, get it down, and voila: Broken lockdown. I bet regen couldn't have done it any better. The problem is most pubs lack the teamwork to do this, and thus it's up to the regen fade to break the lockdown when it's not even his job to do something like that.
Ha, don't look so smart now DO YA...
The problem is that people on pubs don`t care much whats going arounf them. This can easily lead that no one will make second hive, after a while you are screwed without it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think that if your team dont get up second hive in reasonable time DC would just ruin,lame,bore,longer and finally rot the match. With MC you will less have resw***res actually one of them might do hive when realizing he cant fade,
You also avoid lame gorges stacking dcs to vent( I had to test this once in eclipse: (after ~5 min rines had hive on teeth, so i made 3dcs to that went right next to MS.....They had to get gl`s to kill me.that vent was welded So never ever weld it)
WIth Mc you have all the upgrades you ever wanted and fact is that dcs heal you way too slow, one gorge healing around the map is more devastating than medicore-fade.(remember poor guys fade 2 skulk and 1 gorge together)
<!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IT HELPS. I agree.. MC DC SC is just one of the chances, but why not. You are right.. MC IS the best chamber.
Its upgrades help hive 1 kharaa best, you should not place OCs yet so no need to make WOLs with DCs, and you got the speed to PREVENT hive lockdowns, so no DC needed to take a hive back.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
however, the main downfall of mc is the inability of fades to quickly take down a hive lockdown
celerity <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo--> is fun though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually it even doesn`t take more teamwork if you can win with dc you could win with mc, problem is that pubber see oh mc we have lost and that bring down one thing that is hugely too less noticed:MORALE.
Movement first:
Silence - my w4llh4x see all (aka motion tracking).
Celerity - I can run faster than the marine but not BULLETS
Adrenaline - more energy for what? Bitespam, swingspam, gorespam, or healspam?
Defense Second:
Carapace - GREAT but not necessarily the best upgrade available..the rines will have upgraded guns. Super Effective if you're a reckless fade. Excellent for charging groups of marines. Useless for lerks, onos, and gorge. Moderate for skulk.
Regenerate - Super effective for lerkers. But, you gotta have common sense and try not to engage in combat as a lerk. Effective if you are a cautious fade/onos. Super Effective against electrified structures, but moderate against static defenses like turrets. Moderate/useless against grouped marines. Useless for skulk and gorge.
Redemption - flip a coin and see if you live to fight again as the lifeform you were. only those who have faith in the hive will be chosen... However, a MUST for permagorges <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Sensory Third:
Focus - Nice to have but not needed. Effective vs rines with no Ap/lvl 0 armor. Super effective when used with teammates, regardless of class (with the exception of the gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). Super effective for hit and run tactics. Moderate with fade and skulk. Super Effective with Onos since you want to use as little energy as possible since you'll use stomp and devour a lot. Useless for gorge (unless you are t3h l33t snipz0r) and lerk (not meant to fight).
Scent of fear - Great for sniffing out those pesky ninjas.
Cloaking - what's this for. just stand next to a goddamn sensory chamber to become invisible. duh. you can even move while you're next to the chamber and you won't be seen.
Now if you had Movement second then the only thing i would change would be:
Silence - Effective for skulks UNLESS they have motion tracking. But still, you have leap which gives you grants you greater mobility. Moderate for gorges (try to keep a low profile or those marines are gonna **** you). Useless for onos, fade, and lerk.
Celerity - Super Effective for fade ONLY if you can control your energy. Moderate for skulks for leaping farther/bhopping faster and Moderate for onos to run away/ bhop. Super Effective for gorge to run <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Useless for lerking (you want to avoid combat as much as possible when you lerk. It's meant to be a support class not combat class).
Adrenaline - Super Effective for onos to stomp. Super Effective for fade if you consume a ton of energy when you blink. Otherwise get Celerity if you know when to metabolize. Moderate for skulks (leap/bite more?). Effective for gorges to bile bomb/heal spray Super effective for lerks to spore spam. Super effective vs electrified structures (i think b5 drains energy not hp...gotta check).
Its better to stick with the defense, movement, and sensory 3 step tier approach until the ns dev team comes up with upgrades that would actually allow for more alien strats. Trust me on this one. I've seen people who try to break this standard 3 tier approach and succeed around 10% of the time. If the commander is completely aware of what the aliens have dropped as their initial chamber, he has many, many options available at his fingertips to counter everything the alien team tries to do.
I don't mean to rant but one thing the aliens lack is the ability to switch tech trees once they've dropped the chambers. So they're stuck with only 3 upgrades and only 1-2 out of 3 of these upgrades are extremely useful against marines at a specific tier. Also, once the chamber is down, there's nothing they can really do to adapt to whatever tech the rines are throwing at them. All they can resort to is higher lifeforms like fades and onos to take marines down and on the skulks to pressure nodes. But even that has counters and is highly dependent on the amount of res each teammate has as well as whose spending res to benefit the team and whose not. Upgrades are essentially only good for giving a little boost to specific life forms, and nothing more. If the upgrades included alien weapons on the other hand...then i would have nothing to say.
I agree that the movement upgrades fit skulks better than defense but the cost of getting the upgrades is prohibitive because of what I wrote above. If upgrades were free for skulks or all classes, the alien early game will become alot more interesting.
Yeah MT counters silence, but silence affects the marine's performance when he's jumping around and trying to kill the skulk, because every player uses sound to know where the skulk is after losing track of him from dodging. You won't keep the element of stealth with silence when they have MT, but you still have an advantage once you're in range.
I agree that the movement upgrades fit skulks better than defense but the cost of getting the upgrades is prohibitive because of what I wrote above. If upgrades were free for skulks or all classes, the alien early game will become alot more interesting.
Yeah MT counters silence, but silence affects the marine's performance when he's jumping around and trying to kill the skulk, because every player uses sound to know where the skulk is after losing track of him from dodging. You won't keep the element of stealth with silence when they have MT, but you still have an advantage once you're in range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea i forgot to mention that defense upgrades are entirely useless for skulks. Res is really precious in competetive games. In pubs though just experiment with whatever...
not sure about the silence issue. effective for ambushing when they don't have mt. otherwise its useless.
In a clan match, I recall, our commander scouted out the hive and heard the opposing team triple gorge in the beginning. He scanned and saw them drop 3 mcs. So instead of teching armor 1 first, he teched motion tracking and then armor 1 for us. He basically countered the alien strat and they were unable to do anything but fade. But without dcs in their hive, they healed very, very slowly when they returned to it after receiving heavy shotty damage. By the time the fade came back with 75%-100% hp our siege was ready and they succumbed to shotties, siege blasts, and spawn camping.
Overall in about 80% of our matches, the opposing clans did the regular 3 step tier build and lasted very long or beat us. I doubt that anyone who has done MDS or SDM has ever won because of the marine's ability to constantly monitor the alien's progress and then adapt.
3 of any structure except DCs or OCs in one room until AT LEAST the second hive, and ONLY in special situations, is a stupid waste since the passive benefits of SC do not stack, and the passive benefits of MC are large enough with just one chamber nearby to get any adrenaline-based activity done and over without another 10 resources. Any conehead team who puts 3 MCs or SCs in one room goes straight to NS hell. If it's all in the starting hive room, at the very start of the game, make that the ninth ring of NS hell. Pathetic.
3 of any structure except DCs or OCs in one room until AT LEAST the second hive, and ONLY in special situations, is a stupid waste since the passive benefits of SC do not stack, and the passive benefits of MC are large enough with just one chamber nearby to get any adrenaline-based activity done and over without another 10 resources. Any conehead team who puts 3 MCs or SCs in one room goes straight to NS hell. If it's all in the starting hive room, at the very start of the game, make that the ninth ring of NS hell. Pathetic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea for real...they were trying something different to see if it would work but IT DIDN'T. Even though they had one decent fader they still lost b/c of their choice of chambers.
you that awkward moment where your saecond hive is building and some one kills the gorge building it, as well as the skulk who is covering him?
That my friends is where movement chambers will save your space bacon. instead of running all the way across ns_hugeness12 one at a time the team simply presses e and elminates the shotgun rush as it comes through the phase gate.
sure, the fade is vulnerable for the minute-and-a-half long period before the hive is done. this assumes that *gasp* the two cost the same amount of res. in my humble public players opionion. if my fade cant survive a minute with out regen he might want to consider a new line of work, or a least some more practice. further, if instead of going fade immediately he kills an rt first he is firmly rooted in the "dc zone" and has no serious problems.
and the ninja hive and mc can be a base breaker. particularly when it starts to rain onosesses, or however you say more than one onos.