<!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Nov 13 2004, 09:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Nov 13 2004, 09:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Nov 12 2004, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Nov 12 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Siege damage to players was stupid. Isn't it enough to tear apart all the chambers in the room without making the area a deathtrap to aliens at the same time? I don't see why aliens should ever be afraid of their own defenses. Not to mention the buggy and unreliable nature of siege's blast radius which only made things worse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> damn straight. I've been bitching about this in games for ages! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this is exactly the point.
<!--QuoteBegin-MaDMaXX+Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MaDMaXX @ Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> forlorn <span style='color:white'>Be nice. I shouldn't have to tell you this.</span>
If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it.
By the way, you realise there are a number of clan players on the pt team that you've just offended with that comment, not to mention the pt's that are currently just shocked at your comment in utter disbelief of your lack of knowledge on the pt'ing part with this change.
Why don't you just try it yourself when beta6 comes out?
And whats more, what would you suggest we do about leaving it in? it doesn't work, it was removed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because generally you only get the gorges healing the hive scenerio if the hive actually goes up, so then the team would consider it worth it to heal the hive from seiging marines. And if 2 hives are up, 2 gorges with adren or next to a movement chamber healing the hive, 2 fades, 1 lerk + umbra, 1 skulk who goes around killing nodes - 2 fades in a hive room with umbra can definately defend it. Especially if they don't have to worry about a stray siege blast that would kill him.
The only way I can see a well defended second hive being taken down is with HA. Otherwise 2 hive fades + umbra will tear the marines apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And dont' tell me "That is impossible!" when the fact is <b>it was done actively during the season 4 final match in CAL!</b> That's the two best teams in CAL at the time who used gorges to keep the hive alive and relied on fades to keep the marines out of the hive. I've seen it happen in probably over 25 scrims, and sometimes pubbers figure out that gorges can heal a hive and keep it alive from seiges as well!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why don't you just try it yourself when beta6 comes out?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when do I need beta 6 to tryout scenerios I can already do with beta 5? Seigies haven't had their range tripled in the betas, have they? Everyone has said the changes were small, so obviously it's not tough to figure out how the changes are going to work.
Hell, I could have told you back in 2.01 removing a sieges damage was a bad idea.,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And whats more, what would you suggest we do about leaving it in? it doesn't work, it was removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would I suggest? <i>If it's not broken, stop fixing it!</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way, you realise there are a number of clan players on the pt team that you've just offended with that comment, not to mention the pt's that are currently just shocked at your comment in utter disbelief of your lack of knowledge on the pt'ing part with this change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry if I haven't been active in stealing changelogs, if you would like though I'm sure I could probably pick up the pace
<!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 03:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 03:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's a tactical game whether you like it or not. and part of those tactics include methods to eliminating alien hives (the overall goal of the game is elimination, after all), and one of the primary means to doing this is killing the aliens -- whether they're spawning or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a fair argument, but I myself feel that sieges cover too much. They tear apart chambers and any low lifeform suckers near them, only requiring LoS and a kind of "reload" time. Sieges grant too much advantage, seeing as how you can recycle them after they've done their task as well.
The sieges counter the aliens' anti-infantry buildings while the marines counter the aliens themselves. Sounds fair to me.
For one thing, there IS personal skill involved on the marine side to sieging. I could list out a big series of events that take place prior to a successful siege effort, but I don't feel I have to. The sieges fire automatically, but they need a spotter, and the commandwe spots for them (or marines). If you hate dying to automation, why don't we just abolish Offense Chambers and Sentry Turrets at the same time -- obviously this argument does not stand up.
I do play games to have fun, I also don't fly into a violent fit of rage and anger when I'm spawn killed by marines who, admirably, managed to deploy sieges or execute a shotgun rush, in other words... I'm mature about it. I accept my defeat in this regard and simply chalk it up as another game or situation lost. it's not a big deal and I don't think it needs to be removed because I'm going to be a crybaby if I die right as I spawn.
And once again, you are basing your judgement of "fun" on a purely self-centered ideal. YOU'RE not having fun when you're being spawnkilled, but the marine team may well be having a blast while they successfully takw down a hive, all the while using teamwork to cover one another against spawning aliens.
Those who just whine about dying right as they spawn and claim it's some big detrimental issue to the game are probably just people prone to being easily frustrated.
Using your logic, a football team could demand the rules change because losing isn't fun.. so let's abolish losing, okay... it just doesn't make sense. PLAYING the game is fun, win or lose. It's a basic concept of sportsmanship, those who can't accept defeat when it's been fairly dealt upon them should get out of competition altogether.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Nov 13 2004, 04:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Nov 13 2004, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 03:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 03:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's a tactical game whether you like it or not. and part of those tactics include methods to eliminating alien hives (the overall goal of the game is elimination, after all), and one of the primary means to doing this is killing the aliens -- whether they're spawning or not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a fair argument, but I myself feel that sieges cover too much. They tear apart chambers and any low lifeform suckers near them, only requiring LoS and a kind of "reload" time. Sieges grant too much advantage, seeing as how you can recycle them after they've done their task as well.
The sieges counter the aliens' anti-infantry buildings while the marines counter the aliens themselves. Sounds fair to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is fair... it forces the aliens to stop camping the hive and actively attack the marines!
It places a dynamic on pressure, and quick teamwork.... there is nothing wrong with that.
<!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay Dragon Mech, seems you think "fun" is the most important aspect of a game, and not balance/game objectives/fair game design/realism/competition/what have you...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm... a 'fun' game requires all of those things, save realism. I have fun when playing AvP2 - the game isn't realistic at all. Same with FarCry (there is no way in hell one guy could take on that many enemies). Same with Metal Arms (a world entirely popluated by robots - riiiight). Same with Zombie Panic (although I will say the current build favors the z0mb0s). <i><b>And the same applies to Natural Selection!</i></b>
If you think NS is realistic in any way, you haven't played the game much. Guns in real life have recoil. Grenades would have a much larger blast radius. Ammunition would be obtained, used and discarded in clips. A gorge couldn't make a hive 30+ times it's own size by itself. Blink - need I say more? In the case of devour - how could an onos swallow a heavy that is 1/5th of it's own size? Why don't attacks to a marine's head damage him more? Etc., etc. etc.
Seriously, if you want a realistic game, look elsewhere. I'll have fun playing NS.
Very good forlorn, in one post, you not only told us that its a small change and wont' make a difference, you then said, it was a bad idea. You then quote me as saying "thats impossible" when i never said such a thing, surely thats libel?
You then state that you steal changelogs and are going to do it more often.
And to top it all off, you then try to tell us, the knowing public, the dev team, anyone who will listen, that "... it's not broken, stop fixing it!"
I think you'll find that you're very very alone on that one forlorn.
<!--QuoteBegin-MaDMaXX+Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MaDMaXX @ Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hahahaha. You are funny sir. A single Gorge near an MC can heal a Hive and with some luck surrounding structures too for the duration of the 4 pings from an Obs with ease. He'll force marines to walk in and face Umbra, Spore and Hiveheal Fades - the most expensive and risky idea possible.
Even a single good Fade would comftorable hold a Hive in that case, and with added Umbra and another Fade its not even a contest anymore. Now add into this that there is no more evening of the locational advantage with sieges, and 2 healspraying gorges keeping that thing up, and you might as well stop playing when the 2nd Hive goes live.
Dragon Mech, you completely deviated from the subject at hand. If you look, you'll see I said the most important aspect of <b>a game</b>, not of Natural Selection.
I never once claimed Natural Selection was realistic or even meant to be realistic. I was using it as an example of how "fun" does not always work well with the other elements.
You still have not provided a real argument against the varying definition of fun. For example, you might not find it "fun" that you can't run and jump and fly in a game like Rainbow Six, but some people LIKE that aspect of the game -- the fact that it atleast TRIES to be realistic.
A less extreme example.. you may not find it "fun" that an M4A1 easily overpowers a pistol in Counter-Strike, but once again.. this is part of fair game design/balance and to a certain degree, realism.
My point is, you won't ALWAYS be having "fun" in every situation. It's competition, it's a tactical game... it's not always going to be entirely "fun". \
Why is it that you guys can't seem to comprehend the concept of "fun" being viewed differently by different people...
No, it's not "fun" to be devoured, but it can be thrilling to successfully devour and retreat a heavy from a heavy train while under fire. What do you propose they do about this? The marine isn't having any fun staring at the devour animation, but the Onos is having a blast...
Your argument is horribly flawed because it revolves solely around your concept of fun and the idea that YOU should be having fun the entire time that you play the game.
As if the very fact that you get to play NS for FREE online in your spare time isn't fun enough, you've got to come on here and start complaining about, IMO, important aspects of game strategy.
Comments
damn straight. I've been bitching about this in games for ages! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is exactly the point.
If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it.
By the way, you realise there are a number of clan players on the pt team that you've just offended with that comment, not to mention the pt's that are currently just shocked at your comment in utter disbelief of your lack of knowledge on the pt'ing part with this change.
Why don't you just try it yourself when beta6 comes out?
And whats more, what would you suggest we do about leaving it in? it doesn't work, it was removed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because generally you only get the gorges healing the hive scenerio if the hive actually goes up, so then the team would consider it worth it to heal the hive from seiging marines.
And if 2 hives are up, 2 gorges with adren or next to a movement chamber healing the hive, 2 fades, 1 lerk + umbra, 1 skulk who goes around killing nodes - 2 fades in a hive room with umbra can definately defend it. Especially if they don't have to worry about a stray siege blast that would kill him.
The only way I can see a well defended second hive being taken down is with HA. Otherwise 2 hive fades + umbra will tear the marines apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And dont' tell me "That is impossible!" when the fact is <b>it was done actively during the season 4 final match in CAL!</b> That's the two best teams in CAL at the time who used gorges to keep the hive alive and relied on fades to keep the marines out of the hive. I've seen it happen in probably over 25 scrims, and sometimes pubbers figure out that gorges can heal a hive and keep it alive from seiges as well!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why don't you just try it yourself when beta6 comes out?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when do I need beta 6 to tryout scenerios I can already do with beta 5? Seigies haven't had their range tripled in the betas, have they? Everyone has said the changes were small, so obviously it's not tough to figure out how the changes are going to work.
Hell, I could have told you back in 2.01 removing a sieges damage was a bad idea.,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And whats more, what would you suggest we do about leaving it in? it doesn't work, it was removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would I suggest? <i>If it's not broken, stop fixing it!</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
By the way, you realise there are a number of clan players on the pt team that you've just offended with that comment, not to mention the pt's that are currently just shocked at your comment in utter disbelief of your lack of knowledge on the pt'ing part with this change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry if I haven't been active in stealing changelogs, if you would like though I'm sure I could probably pick up the pace
This is a fair argument, but I myself feel that sieges cover too much. They tear apart chambers and any low lifeform suckers near them, only requiring LoS and a kind of "reload" time. Sieges grant too much advantage, seeing as how you can recycle them after they've done their task as well.
The sieges counter the aliens' anti-infantry buildings while the marines counter the aliens themselves. Sounds fair to me.
For one thing, there IS personal skill involved on the marine side to sieging. I could list out a big series of events that take place prior to a successful siege effort, but I don't feel I have to. The sieges fire automatically, but they need a spotter, and the commandwe spots for them (or marines). If you hate dying to automation, why don't we just abolish Offense Chambers and Sentry Turrets at the same time -- obviously this argument does not stand up.
I do play games to have fun, I also don't fly into a violent fit of rage and anger when I'm spawn killed by marines who, admirably, managed to deploy sieges or execute a shotgun rush, in other words... I'm mature about it. I accept my defeat in this regard and simply chalk it up as another game or situation lost. it's not a big deal and I don't think it needs to be removed because I'm going to be a crybaby if I die right as I spawn.
And once again, you are basing your judgement of "fun" on a purely self-centered ideal. YOU'RE not having fun when you're being spawnkilled, but the marine team may well be having a blast while they successfully takw down a hive, all the while using teamwork to cover one another against spawning aliens.
Those who just whine about dying right as they spawn and claim it's some big detrimental issue to the game are probably just people prone to being easily frustrated.
Using your logic, a football team could demand the rules change because losing isn't fun.. so let's abolish losing, okay... it just doesn't make sense. PLAYING the game is fun, win or lose. It's a basic concept of sportsmanship, those who can't accept defeat when it's been fairly dealt upon them should get out of competition altogether.
This is a fair argument, but I myself feel that sieges cover too much. They tear apart chambers and any low lifeform suckers near them, only requiring LoS and a kind of "reload" time. Sieges grant too much advantage, seeing as how you can recycle them after they've done their task as well.
The sieges counter the aliens' anti-infantry buildings while the marines counter the aliens themselves. Sounds fair to me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is fair... it forces the aliens to stop camping the hive and actively attack the marines!
It places a dynamic on pressure, and quick teamwork.... there is nothing wrong with that.
If it's a real problem, you could just have it so that the hive has a max health regen per second value.
Umm... a 'fun' game requires all of those things, save realism. I have fun when playing AvP2 - the game isn't realistic at all. Same with FarCry (there is no way in hell one guy could take on that many enemies). Same with Metal Arms (a world entirely popluated by robots - riiiight). Same with Zombie Panic (although I will say the current build favors the z0mb0s). <i><b>And the same applies to Natural Selection!</i></b>
If you think NS is realistic in any way, you haven't played the game much. Guns in real life have recoil. Grenades would have a much larger blast radius. Ammunition would be obtained, used and discarded in clips. A gorge couldn't make a hive 30+ times it's own size by itself. Blink - need I say more? In the case of devour - how could an onos swallow a heavy that is 1/5th of it's own size? Why don't attacks to a marine's head damage him more? Etc., etc. etc.
Seriously, if you want a realistic game, look elsewhere. I'll have fun playing NS.
You then state that you steal changelogs and are going to do it more often.
And to top it all off, you then try to tell us, the knowing public, the dev team, anyone who will listen, that "... it's not broken, stop fixing it!"
I think you'll find that you're very very alone on that one forlorn.
Hahahaha. You are funny sir. A single Gorge near an MC can heal a Hive and with some luck surrounding structures too for the duration of the 4 pings from an Obs with ease. He'll force marines to walk in and face Umbra, Spore and Hiveheal Fades - the most expensive and risky idea possible.
Even a single good Fade would comftorable hold a Hive in that case, and with added Umbra and another Fade its not even a contest anymore. Now add into this that there is no more evening of the locational advantage with sieges, and 2 healspraying gorges keeping that thing up, and you might as well stop playing when the 2nd Hive goes live.
I never once claimed Natural Selection was realistic or even meant to be realistic. I was using it as an example of how "fun" does not always work well with the other elements.
You still have not provided a real argument against the varying definition of fun. For example, you might not find it "fun" that you can't run and jump and fly in a game like Rainbow Six, but some people LIKE that aspect of the game -- the fact that it atleast TRIES to be realistic.
A less extreme example.. you may not find it "fun" that an M4A1 easily overpowers a pistol in Counter-Strike, but once again.. this is part of fair game design/balance and to a certain degree, realism.
My point is, you won't ALWAYS be having "fun" in every situation. It's competition, it's a tactical game... it's not always going to be entirely "fun". \
Why is it that you guys can't seem to comprehend the concept of "fun" being viewed differently by different people...
No, it's not "fun" to be devoured, but it can be thrilling to successfully devour and retreat a heavy from a heavy train while under fire. What do you propose they do about this? The marine isn't having any fun staring at the devour animation, but the Onos is having a blast...
Your argument is horribly flawed because it revolves solely around your concept of fun and the idea that YOU should be having fun the entire time that you play the game.
As if the very fact that you get to play NS for FREE online in your spare time isn't fun enough, you've got to come on here and start complaining about, IMO, important aspects of game strategy.
Saltz, Forlorn, <i>MaXX</i>, if you can't behave like grown ups, keep your fingers from the keyboard.