Well if your marines are stupid/noobs/cant aim... that usually also means that the alien team isnt in the world's top10 teamlist ... But yes, if you have a superb team, commander doenst need to be so good UNLESS you are playing vs some really good aliens with "commander" (simply a guy who can and is good at making tactics ingame) Then the commander must be able to create new tactics ingame all the time
I keep wondering why is there a TF in NS ... A marine team with decent skill doesnt need it ( A comm from a 1337-Clan has unbind the TF hotkey <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
TF should be reviewed by the Dev (Either dissapear or nerfed)
<!--QuoteBegin-Iron Maiden+Nov 19 2004, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Iron Maiden @ Nov 19 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TF should be reviewed by the Dev (Either dissapear or nerfed) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If it's useless shouldn't it either be removed or enhanced, rather then nerfed?
<!--QuoteBegin-Timmythemoonpig+Nov 19 2004, 07:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Timmythemoonpig @ Nov 19 2004, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your rines suck really bad then you will loose and there is nothing you can say or do about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not true, I've commed and won plenty of games with completely retarded marines, and you know what tactic won it? 2 hive lockdown. L33t skulks so busy going for the easy kills they don't notice that middle hive is locked down, etc.
Look you wrote out a nice bunch of tactics, but really it's all been said here dozens of times, look at the stickies?
You know what the worst commanders are? the ones who play with v good clans in leagues...they just can't deal with crap, noob, retarded players...they are used to clean clinical efficient play and when it comes to a bad pub server they can't deal with it. I've seen quiet commanders who take over this guy's chair after he's had his hissy fit and whined about how crap his marines, the quiet comm then proceeds to win the game.
In fact the best commanders I have ever seen are never the ones in the l33t clans, they are unclanned guys who are calm as hell and always adapt to how much their players suck without resorting to freaking out.
I find it simple to comm good players, its much more of a challenge to comm players who are rubbish, they won't build obs? build it yourself in increments...they pick up sg's and run in random directions? watch the ones who have less tendency to do that and give them the sg's...they don't place mines? place em yourself...
The true talent in comming is adapting to the shitness of your team and remaining calm, giving your team every tiny advantage possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS is a team game. The commander is only part of the team.
I was playing an eclipse match the other night and did an advanced armory strat. We were way outmatched in skill, and the alien team was pulling down three times the kills we were. But because i took the right nodes, we had decent control coming into mid game. When fades came out i was able to respond with hmg's instead of shotties.
It was push after push, my team outfitted with big guns, cause clearly they weren't good with lmg's. We just kept loosing it. Routinely a skulk would kill an hmg. A fade would take out three at a time. If 3 of your rines can't at least chase off a fade with 3 hmg's. I'm sorry buddy, but your gonna lose and no hive lockdowns are saving you.
Thanks for the comments crisano, good points about the multiple obs.
And I've had bad things happen when i get out of the chair in pubs to do extended things like build my obs on the other side of the room. Nub cakes are drawn to the chair like magnets.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is a team game. The commander is only part of the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After 2 years of NS I still can't understand why people feel the need to point out that it's a team game...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was playing an eclipse match the other night and did an advanced armory strat. We were way outmatched in skill, and the alien team was pulling down three times the kills we were. But because i took the right nodes, we had decent control coming into mid game. When fades came out i was able to respond with hmg's instead of shotties.
It was push after push, my team outfitted with big guns, cause clearly they weren't good with lmg's. We just kept loosing it. Routinely a skulk would kill an hmg. A fade would take out three at a time. If 3 of your rines can't at least chase off a fade with 3 hmg's. I'm sorry buddy, but your gonna lose and no hive lockdowns are saving you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can give examples till the cows come home, I've seen plenty of comm's better than me, but I've taken over the chair and won enough 'lost' games to know that anything is possible ....UP UNTIL aliens take 2nd hive. For me, even with the most rubbish useless marine team has a chance, albeit a slim one with 1 hive aliens, no matter how good aliens are.
Sure, one hive alines never have the game totally in the bag.
but really dude, what i'm saying is that if you team is much worse than the other team, you're going to loose. I don't really get why thats a point to argue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but really dude, what i'm saying is that if you team is much worse than the other team, you're going to loose. I don't really get why thats a point to argue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In quakeworld, quake3, counterstrike, dod, in just about every other game I have played that's true, its pretty obvious...the much better team is going to win...
NS however goes against the grain, I've said it before and I'll say it again I've seen crappy rubbish marine teams beat very good alien teams and vice versa, everyone has, but I've seen it happen much more in NS than in other games.
Here's a perfect example...
All my marines were dying outside the doors on Eclipse, we couldn't even get one node, I've taken over from some other comm who just quit. Its chocked up about 50 res since the arguing and the comm quit and I know a 2nd hive is going up. The marines are complete retards, just running out and dying to a few skulks...the alien team is totally glittering with vets and admins, etc...we have to take a risk to win, I sell obs and just keep telling everyone theres gonna be a big surprise in base...I give a countdown which works better than anything...drop 7 sg's and tell everyone to get full ammo...all I say is go down and shoot the hive nothing else...
From then on this retarded scattered team just turns into this one giant perfect blob bristling with sg's, amazingly they walk straight past triad rt, and go straight into Eclipse hive shooting 2 eggs a couple of skulks and creaming the hive and dc's in about 30 seconds...then without me even telling them they go straight to cc as a blob and wipe out the gorge and the hive that's going up.
That kinda thing can't happen in most other games. I have played those other games very competitively for years now and NS is my fun game, I have no intention of joining an NS clan, but its my favorite game because nothing is set in stone, I've seen three hive aliens loose, I've seen everything.
If you want to comm on pubs but its frustrating you too much, then you have to go into the game thinking 'all these marines are completely new, they are useless', too many comms come back from clan games and go onto pub servers wondering why the marines aren't responding, why they aren't able to kill skulks, etc. I just expect it and treat it as a bonus when they can. It's simple positive thinking and those games in which I have a rubbish team against a stacked alien team are the ones I love the most, especially when we win them.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I can manage comming quite well without losing my patience, aslong as they follow orders (ok, most), they build (with some help), and they hit the damn targets. (come one, any HL mod is shooting.. even n00bs should be able to freaking AIM)
<!--QuoteBegin-D.C. Darkling+Nov 20 2004, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D.C. Darkling @ Nov 20 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can manage comming quite well without losing my patience, aslong as they follow orders (ok, most), they build (with some help), and they hit the damn targets. (come one, any HL mod is shooting.. even n00bs should be able to freaking AIM) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I get too many noobs who can't even manage 1:1 in the early game (0-3:30), so I'm pretty short tempered if I'm commanding a pub. Follow your orders and you will win seems to be too hard a concept for most people to grasp.
Turret factories are very useful, for sieging hives, because you kind of...can't siege a hive without it. Many times it's better to siege instead of strongarming your way into the hive with shotguns, because you simply CANNOT kill a smart fade with hive support, but your marines are especially at risk inside the hive.
At what point does a single electrified tf in base become a better defense than mines? The tf is basically permanent, but the mines can all be taken out quickly by 2 sacrificial skulks, leaving any other skulks to munch on whatever they want. In small games, I get mines, but in large games where they do these suicide tactics I get an elec-tf. And even though the tf will cost more than a pack of mines, the tf defends ALL of your buildings if placed correctly. It'll take roughly 4 packs of mines to do the same if you spread your base out, so the costs of the two defenses are balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Nov 20 2004, 05:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Nov 20 2004, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At what point does a single electrified tf in base become a better defense than mines? The tf is basically permanent, but the mines can all be taken out quickly by 2 sacrificial skulks, leaving any other skulks to munch on whatever they want. In small games, I get mines, but in large games where they do these suicide tactics I get an elec-tf. And even though the tf will cost more than a pack of mines, the tf defends ALL of your buildings if placed correctly. It'll take roughly 4 packs of mines to do the same if you spread your base out, so the costs of the two defenses are balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> mines shouldnt be used as a protection they are an assist for defence.. if you keep enough pressure on aliens you wont be letting them sacrifice 3+ skulks on a base rush all too often.
also you should have people dieing every now and then to just cover the directions aliens can push from.
even if they get to base you should be able to defend it from the last skulk as a comm (if you make your base nice enough).
the 40 odd res for an elec tf is nowhere near worth it at any point because you should be spending that res on more useful things. 2 packs of mines max will look after a base. 16res > 40+res (cant remember if a tf is 10 or 15 lolololol, not played in like 2 months :[ )
I argee with quite a bit about that apart especially the phases. I try and get a phase and base, and the centre of the map and outside an active hive.
I dont lockdown a hive, unless i know its clear, and even then i dont do much. By the time i get a hive which is quite early in the game ive got like 100 res anyway. I usally build seiges outside so when they try and build, they wonder why the feck its blowing up.
the 40 odd res for an elec tf is nowhere near worth it at any point because you should be spending that res on more useful things. 2 packs of mines max will look after a base. 16res > 40+res (cant remember if a tf is 10 or 15 lolololol, not played in like 2 months :[ ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it's 10 and 30 for the elec better start playing again lump your getting rusty
The best defense available to any commander is your own marines. Turrets don't do much damage, and can be tricked. Mines can be avoided. Relocates can be found.
Marines can suprise aliens, kill the larger beasts, stick together, communicate, and hunt in packs.
However, that means you have to be able to trust them. That's the hardest bit.
Some of the posts in these threads really highlight the problem that routerbox is talking about. Allow me to explain why spending res on lockdowns, electrifiying, tfs at random locations and turrets in base are all bad ideas.
I'm not going to deny that they <b>can</b> work. Anything can work in NS every now and then. Whetever or not these strategies work is dependant on the alien team and the level of skill present and it only takes one high skilled player to screw everything up for you.
As in all cases the best defense is a good offense. If you don't pressure aliens and you're on the defensive for the entire round then you'll be under attack. This is why when you put a turret factory in double and never push past it you constantly need troops to stay in double and defend it. As you're constantly under attack but manage to hold the location then it might look like the turrets and electricity all paid off. However the res you spend on all of that is res that can't be spent on upgrades, weapons, meds and ammo. These are all things that your marines need to stay alive and win the game.
If you choose to get an electrified tf and turrets in base and not get upgrades then your marines will die a lot. As such you'll have no map control and the aliens will pressure your base a lot. Again the turrets might hold out for a while but ultimately they'll be your demise
A far better defense of base and key locations is to attack the aliens. If you have 3 people camping cargo on ns_tanith when hive is fusion then you don't really have to worry about mass attacks on your base. You're better off capping res and teching up. If you're killing aliens and your marines are staying alive then you dictate the game. If you keep the pressure on you stop the aliens hitting your res and your base.
Rather than wasting res on turrets to hold double res you're better off pushing on and saving res for upgrades. Marines pressuring a hive will be far more effective at stopping aliens than sitting back and hoping you get HA before they get 2 hives and an onos. Further more spawning marines, as lump said act as base defense. Moving out and having marines across the map and alive stops any potential attacks.
That's not to say there isn't a time or place for mines in base but i'd not get them at the start of the match.
Well the thing the marines lack is cooperation. If theres even 1 or 2 people on the marines who don't listen to orders then the marines would lose (Most of the time). When I comm I usually just build a pg inside the hive's rt then elect the rt. It's fine cause the aliens won't dare to bile or bite it cause then I would just get someone phasing through.
mrrr. i tend to throw everyone out of base straight away bar 1 gut whose building ip etc.. If aliens are smart they can normally bum him and win the game unless u get a nice pack o mines in base asap <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> thats all i do tho and it gives me mucho early game spawn camp potential etc.
shadow.. meight, i was right.. it aint rust, its wisdome <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. believe me i want to play NS again D:
<!--QuoteBegin-Lump+Jan 9 2005, 07:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Jan 9 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mrrr. i tend to throw everyone out of base straight away bar 1 gut whose building ip etc.. If aliens are smart they can normally bum him and win the game unless u get a nice pack o mines in base asap <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> thats all i do tho and it gives me mucho early game spawn camp potential etc.
shadow.. meight, i was right.. it aint rust, its wisdome <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. believe me i want to play NS again D: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> most good clans usually send out a pressure team of 2-3 and have a capping team of the other 2-3 that builds base. 4 people out is rare.
Also thank you Mr. Ben for your backup on the offense/defense thing. For those of you unaware, Mr. Ben is the person in charge of ns_nothing, veil and eclipse. The dude is in charge of building the damn levels, he knows whats up.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jan 9 2005, 11:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jan 9 2005, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> most good clans usually send out a pressure team of 2-3 and have a capping team of the other 2-3 that builds base. 4 people out is rare. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because its rare doesnt mean its wrong.. also it isnt THAT rare to do a 2-2 split at the begining of the game. Im sure many people can back me up on this. yes some maps i prefer 3-2 split but majority the 2-2 split is much more effective for me.
On veil for example, a 2-2-1 split is a pretty good idea, since you can cap two rts quickly while keeping your base covered. On tanith, you might want to keep more people at base at first to counter base rushes, or be able to adapt your strategy to whatever your hive is.
Something I've noticed though is that NA teams are more prone to having 2+ people building base, while euro teams often just leave one regardless of the map.
Just a thing about the hive locking down part, if you lock down 2 hives then there are no 2 hive gorges and so on. If someone has something to say about this please do i want to hear it.
One thing you should allso to keep in mind that for a price of one lousy turret you can have one-skulk-pwnage thing that is mobile called sg`s If you like to make turret or few in a pub. Next time you find yourself making drops sgs worth that res. marines are happy and aliens are dead ^__^
4-1 and 3-1-1 splits are all common and effective. In fact, I find your statement that clan games <i>often</i> see a 2-person nodeslut team to be a little weird. If the pressure team is doing its job, one guy should be able to cap and patrol nodes pretty well.
Oh, exception for when hive lockdowns are totally awesome: sensory first. The problem is that commandos spend far too much on locks. Even against sensory aliens, locks are a speedbump, nothing more. An elec node or tf is cheaper than 4 turrets, and more importantly, cheaper in terms of time it keeps your marines away from pressure.
Also, even in clan games, I don't see anything wrong with locking the location of a hive you just killed. It serves two purposes, the first being the speedbump effect. The second is that hive locations serve as good staging phases, so if you get beat back from one location, you don't have to walk so far to take another crack at it.
In re: mines in base, I don't like putting them all on the ip. Aliens are likely to go for the obs first, and the armslab or adv. armory second. Those are worth protecting. In pubs, I don't drop mines with my initial res, I get an arms lab and armor 1 and a node or two up early. I play many a pub game without dropping any mines until I've got a phase up at a siege location, mines aren't worth it unless and until the aliens show interest in your base.
Also: set one (1) ip, your obs, armory, arms lab, and proto as squads. It makes upgrading easier and it serves as another thing telling you your base is under attack that's more noticeable than the audio warning, which gets ignored half the time because it's some random RT.
4-1 split just leaves base far to open in my opinion and doesnt give you the map spread that is useful very good for keeping options open.ei. gives you more oportunity to react to aliens decisions/circumstances.
Gneralas as for 2 hive lockdown:
when you lock down a hive you will spend, im assuming, 40 res on the farm (tf + 3 turreNt's) minimum and 15 on the phase gate, thats 65 res. aka mt, some wepons or some upgrades.
then times that by 2 and imagine the time scale involved.
now what would the aliens be doing if they saw you locking down hives? eating resource nodes and laughing that their nodes are untouched.
after about 4 mins when the aliens start getting some lifeforms out you will have 2 hives, a few turrets. 4 res towers max and a servere lack of upgrades.
after some time they will have an army of onos/fade/lerk/lame to crush you out of those hives and make easy work of you.
to farm up a hive you'll need atleast 2 people to build everything there (because you wont have 60 res stored away to spend instantly on those structures meaning their needs to be sufficient defence while the structures are easily removed)
2 people short when on the attack can be noticed quite a fair bit. giving the aliens far more oportunity to keep pressure on you.. which is EXACTLY what you dont want.
Offence is the most effective defence and it also weakens the enemy. When you forfiet your offence for unnesessary defence.. you are only weakening youself and giving the other team more of an oportunity to expand and grow.
now just 1 pg with occasional dieing marines would do an effective job of giving you the spread and mobility around the map to do some quick defending AND letting you keep the attack more constant. But dont worry if you lose the pg. Just keep attacking <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are seiging, don?t drop regular turrets. For each regular turret you would drop, drop a shot gun instead. Those regular turrets and lmg?s wont take down a fade, but 4 decent shotties will. A turret will rarely really kill many aliens, but a good shotgunner will take out enough to pay for that gun in RFK. (resources from kills)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually if you drop one sentry at each choke point around your siege setup, its a good investment.
In a scrim once on ns_veil, my commander set up 2 turrets around a special pipeline siege spot (the room just after the c-12 node); one to block the doorway leading to pipe and the other to block the hallway where coming from c12. The alien team had good teamwork, as they sent the fades in first and then the skulks came in to munch on the setup. But after a couple shotty blasts, mines, and firing from the turrets, the fade decided it was his cue to leave. However, he got stuck as he was trying to escape. My mates and I managed to unload all our ammo into his **** and that was the end of that (we got both the fades).
So its not entirely a waste of res to drop a few sentries. But it is really unnecessary to drop like 10 sentries to "lockdown" the hive unless you control at least 50% of the nodes on the map and you have have the aliens pinned down.
Comments
Then the commander must be able to create new tactics ingame all the time
A marine team with decent skill doesnt need it ( A comm from a 1337-Clan has unbind the TF hotkey <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
TF should be reviewed by the Dev (Either dissapear or nerfed)
If it's useless shouldn't it either be removed or enhanced, rather then nerfed?
Thats not true, I've commed and won plenty of games with completely retarded marines, and you know what tactic won it? 2 hive lockdown. L33t skulks so busy going for the easy kills they don't notice that middle hive is locked down, etc.
Look you wrote out a nice bunch of tactics, but really it's all been said here dozens of times, look at the stickies?
You know what the worst commanders are? the ones who play with v good clans in leagues...they just can't deal with crap, noob, retarded players...they are used to clean clinical efficient play and when it comes to a bad pub server they can't deal with it. I've seen quiet commanders who take over this guy's chair after he's had his hissy fit and whined about how crap his marines, the quiet comm then proceeds to win the game.
In fact the best commanders I have ever seen are never the ones in the l33t clans, they are unclanned guys who are calm as hell and always adapt to how much their players suck without resorting to freaking out.
I find it simple to comm good players, its much more of a challenge to comm players who are rubbish, they won't build obs? build it yourself in increments...they pick up sg's and run in random directions? watch the ones who have less tendency to do that and give them the sg's...they don't place mines? place em yourself...
The true talent in comming is adapting to the shitness of your team and remaining calm, giving your team every tiny advantage possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is a team game. The commander is only part of the team.
I was playing an eclipse match the other night and did an advanced armory strat. We were way outmatched in skill, and the alien team was pulling down three times the kills we were. But because i took the right nodes, we had decent control coming into mid game. When fades came out i was able to respond with hmg's instead of shotties.
It was push after push, my team outfitted with big guns, cause clearly they weren't good with lmg's. We just kept loosing it. Routinely a skulk would kill an hmg. A fade would take out three at a time. If 3 of your rines can't at least chase off a fade with 3 hmg's. I'm sorry buddy, but your gonna lose and no hive lockdowns are saving you.
Thanks for the comments crisano, good points about the multiple obs.
And I've had bad things happen when i get out of the chair in pubs to do extended things like build my obs on the other side of the room. Nub cakes are drawn to the chair like magnets.
They should also allow the commander to temporarily put a lockout on the chair to other players while he hops out to do things.
After 2 years of NS I still can't understand why people feel the need to point out that it's a team game...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was playing an eclipse match the other night and did an advanced armory strat. We were way outmatched in skill, and the alien team was pulling down three times the kills we were. But because i took the right nodes, we had decent control coming into mid game. When fades came out i was able to respond with hmg's instead of shotties.
It was push after push, my team outfitted with big guns, cause clearly they weren't good with lmg's. We just kept loosing it. Routinely a skulk would kill an hmg. A fade would take out three at a time. If 3 of your rines can't at least chase off a fade with 3 hmg's. I'm sorry buddy, but your gonna lose and no hive lockdowns are saving you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can give examples till the cows come home, I've seen plenty of comm's better than me, but I've taken over the chair and won enough 'lost' games to know that anything is possible ....UP UNTIL aliens take 2nd hive. For me, even with the most rubbish useless marine team has a chance, albeit a slim one with 1 hive aliens, no matter how good aliens are.
Sure, one hive alines never have the game totally in the bag.
but really dude, what i'm saying is that if you team is much worse than the other team, you're going to loose. I don't really get why thats a point to argue.
In quakeworld, quake3, counterstrike, dod, in just about every other game I have played that's true, its pretty obvious...the much better team is going to win...
NS however goes against the grain, I've said it before and I'll say it again I've seen crappy rubbish marine teams beat very good alien teams and vice versa, everyone has, but I've seen it happen much more in NS than in other games.
Here's a perfect example...
All my marines were dying outside the doors on Eclipse, we couldn't even get one node, I've taken over from some other comm who just quit. Its chocked up about 50 res since the arguing and the comm quit and I know a 2nd hive is going up. The marines are complete retards, just running out and dying to a few skulks...the alien team is totally glittering with vets and admins, etc...we have to take a risk to win, I sell obs and just keep telling everyone theres gonna be a big surprise in base...I give a countdown which works better than anything...drop 7 sg's and tell everyone to get full ammo...all I say is go down and shoot the hive nothing else...
From then on this retarded scattered team just turns into this one giant perfect blob bristling with sg's, amazingly they walk straight past triad rt, and go straight into Eclipse hive shooting 2 eggs a couple of skulks and creaming the hive and dc's in about 30 seconds...then without me even telling them they go straight to cc as a blob and wipe out the gorge and the hive that's going up.
That kinda thing can't happen in most other games. I have played those other games very competitively for years now and NS is my fun game, I have no intention of joining an NS clan, but its my favorite game because nothing is set in stone, I've seen three hive aliens loose, I've seen everything.
If you want to comm on pubs but its frustrating you too much, then you have to go into the game thinking 'all these marines are completely new, they are useless', too many comms come back from clan games and go onto pub servers wondering why the marines aren't responding, why they aren't able to kill skulks, etc. I just expect it and treat it as a bonus when they can. It's simple positive thinking and those games in which I have a rubbish team against a stacked alien team are the ones I love the most, especially when we win them.
I get too many noobs who can't even manage 1:1 in the early game (0-3:30), so I'm pretty short tempered if I'm commanding a pub. Follow your orders and you will win seems to be too hard a concept for most people to grasp.
Turret factories are very useful, for sieging hives, because you kind of...can't siege a hive without it. Many times it's better to siege instead of strongarming your way into the hive with shotguns, because you simply CANNOT kill a smart fade with hive support, but your marines are especially at risk inside the hive.
Oh wait we're talking resonably sized games aren't we
mines shouldnt be used as a protection they are an assist for defence.. if you keep enough pressure on aliens you wont be letting them sacrifice 3+ skulks on a base rush all too often.
also you should have people dieing every now and then to just cover the directions aliens can push from.
even if they get to base you should be able to defend it from the last skulk as a comm (if you make your base nice enough).
the 40 odd res for an elec tf is nowhere near worth it at any point because you should be spending that res on more useful things. 2 packs of mines max will look after a base. 16res > 40+res (cant remember if a tf is 10 or 15 lolololol, not played in like 2 months :[ )
I dont lockdown a hive, unless i know its clear, and even then i dont do much. By the time i get a hive which is quite early in the game ive got like 100 res anyway. I usally build seiges outside so when they try and build, they wonder why the feck its blowing up.
the 40 odd res for an elec tf is nowhere near worth it at any point because you should be spending that res on more useful things. 2 packs of mines max will look after a base. 16res > 40+res (cant remember if a tf is 10 or 15 lolololol, not played in like 2 months :[ ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's 10 and 30 for the elec
better start playing again lump your getting rusty
Seriously, ppl spawn in, phase, you can hop out (not adviced), and mines help.
Also the fact that you can relocate is great 2, incase base gets nuked.
Marines can suprise aliens, kill the larger beasts, stick together, communicate, and hunt in packs.
However, that means you have to be able to trust them. That's the hardest bit.
I'm not going to deny that they <b>can</b> work. Anything can work in NS every now and then. Whetever or not these strategies work is dependant on the alien team and the level of skill present and it only takes one high skilled player to screw everything up for you.
As in all cases the best defense is a good offense. If you don't pressure aliens and you're on the defensive for the entire round then you'll be under attack. This is why when you put a turret factory in double and never push past it you constantly need troops to stay in double and defend it. As you're constantly under attack but manage to hold the location then it might look like the turrets and electricity all paid off. However the res you spend on all of that is res that can't be spent on upgrades, weapons, meds and ammo. These are all things that your marines need to stay alive and win the game.
If you choose to get an electrified tf and turrets in base and not get upgrades then your marines will die a lot. As such you'll have no map control and the aliens will pressure your base a lot. Again the turrets might hold out for a while but ultimately they'll be your demise
A far better defense of base and key locations is to attack the aliens. If you have 3 people camping cargo on ns_tanith when hive is fusion then you don't really have to worry about mass attacks on your base. You're better off capping res and teching up. If you're killing aliens and your marines are staying alive then you dictate the game. If you keep the pressure on you stop the aliens hitting your res and your base.
Rather than wasting res on turrets to hold double res you're better off pushing on and saving res for upgrades. Marines pressuring a hive will be far more effective at stopping aliens than sitting back and hoping you get HA before they get 2 hives and an onos. Further more spawning marines, as lump said act as base defense. Moving out and having marines across the map and alive stops any potential attacks.
That's not to say there isn't a time or place for mines in base but i'd not get them at the start of the match.
shadow.. meight, i was right.. it aint rust, its wisdome <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. believe me i want to play NS again D:
shadow.. meight, i was right.. it aint rust, its wisdome <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. believe me i want to play NS again D: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
most good clans usually send out a pressure team of 2-3 and have a capping team of the other 2-3 that builds base. 4 people out is rare.
Also thank you Mr. Ben for your backup on the offense/defense thing. For those of you unaware, Mr. Ben is the person in charge of ns_nothing, veil and eclipse. The dude is in charge of building the damn levels, he knows whats up.
Go go credentials!
Just because its rare doesnt mean its wrong.. also it isnt THAT rare to do a 2-2 split at the begining of the game. Im sure many people can back me up on this. yes some maps i prefer 3-2 split but majority the 2-2 split is much more effective for me.
Something I've noticed though is that NA teams are more prone to having 2+ people building base, while euro teams often just leave one regardless of the map.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh, exception for when hive lockdowns are totally awesome: sensory first. The problem is that commandos spend far too much on locks. Even against sensory aliens, locks are a speedbump, nothing more. An elec node or tf is cheaper than 4 turrets, and more importantly, cheaper in terms of time it keeps your marines away from pressure.
Also, even in clan games, I don't see anything wrong with locking the location of a hive you just killed. It serves two purposes, the first being the speedbump effect. The second is that hive locations serve as good staging phases, so if you get beat back from one location, you don't have to walk so far to take another crack at it.
In re: mines in base, I don't like putting them all on the ip. Aliens are likely to go for the obs first, and the armslab or adv. armory second. Those are worth protecting. In pubs, I don't drop mines with my initial res, I get an arms lab and armor 1 and a node or two up early. I play many a pub game without dropping any mines until I've got a phase up at a siege location, mines aren't worth it unless and until the aliens show interest in your base.
Also: set one (1) ip, your obs, armory, arms lab, and proto as squads. It makes upgrading easier and it serves as another thing telling you your base is under attack that's more noticeable than the audio warning, which gets ignored half the time because it's some random RT.
Gneralas
as for 2 hive lockdown:
when you lock down a hive you will spend, im assuming, 40 res on the farm (tf + 3 turreNt's) minimum and 15 on the phase gate, thats 65 res. aka mt, some wepons or some upgrades.
then times that by 2 and imagine the time scale involved.
now what would the aliens be doing if they saw you locking down hives? eating resource nodes and laughing that their nodes are untouched.
after about 4 mins when the aliens start getting some lifeforms out you will have 2 hives, a few turrets. 4 res towers max and a servere lack of upgrades.
after some time they will have an army of onos/fade/lerk/lame to crush you out of those hives and make easy work of you.
to farm up a hive you'll need atleast 2 people to build everything there (because you wont have 60 res stored away to spend instantly on those structures meaning their needs to be sufficient defence while the structures are easily removed)
2 people short when on the attack can be noticed quite a fair bit. giving the aliens far more oportunity to keep pressure on you.. which is EXACTLY what you dont want.
Offence is the most effective defence and it also weakens the enemy. When you forfiet your offence for unnesessary defence.. you are only weakening youself and giving the other team more of an oportunity to expand and grow.
now just 1 pg with occasional dieing marines would do an effective job of giving you the spread and mobility around the map to do some quick defending AND letting you keep the attack more constant. But dont worry if you lose the pg. Just keep attacking <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually if you drop one sentry at each choke point around your siege setup, its a good investment.
In a scrim once on ns_veil, my commander set up 2 turrets around a special pipeline siege spot (the room just after the c-12 node); one to block the doorway leading to pipe and the other to block the hallway where coming from c12. The alien team had good teamwork, as they sent the fades in first and then the skulks came in to munch on the setup. But after a couple shotty blasts, mines, and firing from the turrets, the fade decided it was his cue to leave. However, he got stuck as he was trying to escape. My mates and I managed to unload all our ammo into his **** and that was the end of that (we got both the fades).
So its not entirely a waste of res to drop a few sentries. But it is really unnecessary to drop like 10 sentries to "lockdown" the hive unless you control at least 50% of the nodes on the map and you have have the aliens pinned down.