<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Nov 5 2002, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 5 2002, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At first, I wasn't going to make any balance changes for this week's patches. I thought "people are still getting used to the aliens, they'll see the light after they play more". I did see a few games which did make a few things clear to me though: fades are powerful enough and HMGs are too powerful. Also, the game is fairly turret-centric right now, and I'd prefer turrets to delay players, and have most of the fighting occur BETWEEN players.
I don't want to overcorrect either, I have to think about it more and watch more games.
If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don;t know if you will be able to track that bug down before hard coding the resource rate into the game. Isolate the changes you want to make now then when the rate is consistant it should be easier to track down that bug if there is one. I think the GL and cost changes makes sense, but leave the fade alone until a second patch if it is needed. Being a constant alien player I like fades the way they are... It is the whole marine squad in hvy armor and hvy mg/gl with 80 turrets that hurt the game.
Also since you are reading this thread... what is up with offensive and defensive chambers having a limited number in an area but turrets do not... Perhaps you can make turret factories only support so many turrets (siege count as double) forcing marines to build multiple turret factories in an area to saturate it with turrets... It would atleast add 25 - 75 resource points to the cost of these turret forts.
I think you have made one great mod. just some minor tweaks and I can see this rivaling CS, DOD, TFC. Keep up the good work.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Nov 5 2002, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 5 2002, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The resource bug is when one team is down to very few players, say, 2 v 5.
The team with 2 will get their resources replenished INSTANTLY. And upgrade INSTANTLY.
I'm actually not sure if this happens with Marines, I've only experienced it with aliens.
As soon as teams start balancing out, the bug goes away.
Oh, btw, it would be real nice (i'm sure this is not trivial to just "plug in") to have 3rd person perspective for the aliens. Trying to run and chomp is hard to track in first person. As a marine it's much easier to back up, track, and shoot the alien; than it is for the alien to run forward and bite. imho.
HTH,
Niteowl
PS this mod ROCKS soo much. like crack cocaine. like.. something else as addictive. I've been pining away for Hitman 2 for a few months. A production "professional" game. Now, after being natural selection addicted, i'm like, "Hitman what?!?"
Whatever changes you lot decide to apply in the patches, the main one ( for me..) is the auto team balance..It's hard to make balance judgements when you play as 2 aliens vs 10 marines...Just watch them all in the readyroom scrambling for the marine door..I played on a server with auto-teams last night, and it was a LOT better.....
Anyway, it's looking great. Well played all involved.
Good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good !!!!!!!!!!
I like.
btw: about all thse "alien success stories:" they don't refelct the effectiveness of the alien team as a whole. Every time you hear an alien success story that makes you think "maybe aliens ARE truly balanced" just think that one of those comes every 5 games or so.
The resource problem is this. Marines start out with 98 resources while aliens start out with only 10 each. With 5 aliens thats only 50 points between them. Here is the problem. Marines can have 2 spawns, a ammo machine, turrent machine, and 4 turrents up before aliens can even get up one resource tower. Eh im no rocket scientist but personaly I think thats screwed.
Then we have the issue of marines getting hvy mg's before the aliens can even build a second hive. Resources are just very slow comming to the aliens because you might have 3 builders spread out between three hives trying to build items. The marines on the other hand only have one central resource point which in the end almost triples the amount of resources they get vs the aliens since its centralized.
This game does have the potentiol to be the next dod but some major tweaks need to be made not these minor ones. The scales are still way tipped over to the marines and it shows on the servers. For example last night we had people joining the server and everyone kept joining the marines. It finally got to the point where we had 9 marines on 5 aliens. Players know which side is the winning one and they get sick of playing aliens and losing all the time.
Everyone knows that once the marines take over one hive its over with. The only time I have seen the aliens win is with a newb commander that didnt send his marines to camp a hive out with turrents immediately. This game is not player vs player its aliens versus rooms full of marine turrents and the aliens are losing bad. Marines can build their turrents and leave since they pretty much know the aliens can not take them out. And I mean a group of aliens. While on the other hand its sad when one marine can walk into a whole room of alien turrents and take them out without breaking a sweat. Marines get upgrades when they research why cant the aliens get turrent upgrades when they build defense towers, get firing rate upgrades for the turrents when they build movement turrents and get accuracy and range increased when they build observation turrents. This would probably help some but still the marine turrents are still near immpossible for a group of low lvl aliens to take out while low lvl marines can walk right through alien turrents. And can we get a cap put on the amount of turrents that can be put in one area. I think I can put 5 turrents right next to each other and not have any problems. While I think its 4 alien turrents before I start getting the warning. But even then all i have to do is walk a couple of feet and i can build more. I would suggest making a set limit to the amount of turrents that can be built per turrent factory. Also if the turrents factory goes down, why dont the turrents stop working?
Seige turrent ranges need to be cut in half. Yesterday the marines pretty much camped us by putting turrents anywhere they could and took over a central room that was pretty much inbetween two hives. We never saw one marine try to enter the hive because all they did was build seige turrents in this room that for some ungodly reason had the range to take out two hives completly without one marine setting foot into the hive. Hey siege turrents are great but limit them to only being built in the marine start area. Because the trend the game is going to now is camp the hives with turrents and just wait till you can build seige turrents and let them take out the whole hive. So much for the pvp this goes back to the aliens vs turrents.
I want to see this game excel and become the next dod but unbalancing issues are sometimes unbearable. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At first, I wasn't going to make any balance changes for this week's patches.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like everyone to read this. In case someone forgot, this is a beta release. Everything about the game mechanics will most likely be in flux for the next 6 months at least. The changes/fixes made right now might not be in the release after this one, see what i'm saying? Just relax. Nothing is permenant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have played several games as a marine where they have 1000+ resources. However, these games were ones that I joined midway into and therefore do not know how long they had been running before I joined. 1000 might seem like a lot, but 2 hours with a commander that isn't buying stuff would give you that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The team with 2 will get their resources replenished INSTANTLY. And upgrade INSTANTLY.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an alien phenomenon because of the nature of the alien resource model, which I will explain.
All resources gained are divided evenly among the aliens playing. If at any point in time an alien is at its personal capacity to hold resources the extra resources are stockpiled in the hives, and then redistributed. If an alien quits, the resources are sent back to the hive. This will lead to situations where an alien team that has been doing good, eg, not having to re-evolve every 2 minutes having a seemingly endless amount of resources.
This does not happen with marines because the resources gained are immediatly stored and the commander is given access to them. No division.
As a disclaimer: I am about 90% sure this is all correct, it has been put together through a lot of discussion and reading. If one of the team notices anything incorrect, please correct.
I am all for the patch. My thoughts are this. Turrets for marines only cost about 10 resources and i think 25 for the turret factory. 1 turret is hard to kill. but ad a whole pile of them and you get this
NOT pretty. Also, marines have learned "for the most part" to look up, look around. look behind. look everywhere. You usually wont be able to take down a good player from stealth. also. when biting someone. all they have to do is jump. cant hit them. ever been an onos? what happens when the marine ducks? I have snuck up behind someone and bit them 4 or five times. he had heavy armor, was able to turn around and kill me and only lost all his armor and 2hp. I have tried tried to out bite someone with heavy armor and him using knife. Marine won.
I absolutely love the game.
btw try reading this post. may be for resource bug
Last thoughts. Aliens SHOULD have the upper hand. Marines have the range of thier guns to compensate and a commander that can give them what ever they want. If i play a marine i want to be scared that an alien will pop out somewhere and i have to stop it. Right now, as marine, even on servers that dont fidle with resource code, all marines have to do is get up a turret factory and some turrets and they can sit back and upgrade. There is no fear of aliens there. I really hope this patch puts the fear back into being a marine.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
The resource bug is quite simple. The number of resources is multipled by the number of players on the team. The game is balanced for 4 on 4. In an 8 on 8 game, both sides are getting twice as many resources, in a 12 on 12 three times etc.
The value of resources to the Kharaa is much less than for the marines, while the value of time to the Kharaa is much greater. Thus, doubling the resource income meant the Kharaa has LESS than half the time - maybe even just a quarter of the time - before the dreaded HMG's and HA's appear.
The solution is extremly simple. Don't multiply the income with the number of players and remove the (then unecessary) ns_playerresourcescalar variable.
More on this in the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8722' target='_blank'>NS_playerresourcescalar Considered Harmful</a> thread. For timing issues, you may consider reading the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=8684' target='_blank'>Khara Resource Model and One Gorge Strategy</a>
If it seems challenging to bite in first person, it's because it's supposed to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just as a polite inquiry, I take it this means third person was tried during development and caused problems of some kind?
If this is true, any chance of finding out what these problems were?
If that's not true, why so adamant against any support of third person view?
Yes, it's an absolute pain to make third-person work in a confined space for any kind of ranged attacks, Alice is about the only successful 'third person crosshair' I know of, and it only worked because the areas weren't super-confined like Natural Selection. But for melee, third person does make sense.
But, purposefully making biting more difficult by obscuring the view, or claiming that that's the reason to obscure the view with the jaws, seems... silly. Someone will just set their near-clipping just far enough out to cut off the gun at some point then, if nothing else. Or just disable the view-model on the jaws. Either is quite simple to do as far as I can tell, since it doesn't increase the size of the model any, and therefore doesn't trip any of the anti-cheating measures I know of.
And yes, I'm kinda playing devils advocate here, because the... vigor behind your rebutal of third-person mode seems overly strong, but I know I wasn't part of development so I know I don't have all the facts. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's a nasty tactic I've seen diehard marine commanders do which I haven't been able to find a good defence against, especially if your down to 1 or 2 hives:
Build a room full of turrets near the position of a large alien structure farm. 5 or 6 senties will be enough, although 12 is not uncommon. Then build a siege cannon in the middle of that. After blowing a bunch of alien structures away with the siege cannon, move up closer to the hive and do the same thing. Repeat until alien hive is popped.
What are the aliens supposed to do about this? The aliens only real chance is to attack the marines before they get the turrets assembled at all, but this is easier said than done. This involves a fullscale attack on a highly defended position of 5-12 turrets. As far as I can tell, the only way to handle that many turrets is to bring in some Lerks with umbra to hurt the turrets effectiveness. Then head in and bite the turrets to death before the umbra dissipates. This takes time, more than enough time than it takes to assemble siege turrets. To make it even more incidious, Marines can counter against umbra with grenades. End result: Even superior numbers of well organized Aliens are pushed back relentlessly by well organized marines.
If you have only one hive and the marines are doing this against you, the game might as well be over.
My thoughts:
This patch does help a bit against that since it lowers the potency of grenades and raises durability of the frontline aliens who are supposed to counter this.
There should be a limiting factor on marine turrets other than the economy. Maybe a limit of 4 sentry turrets or 1 siege turret per factory or something.
I think ultimately we're proably going to end up having to prevent siege turrets from firing on things not in direct LOS to prevent them from being abused.
Something preventing turrets from being built in alien hives may be neccessary too. The marines have an unfair advantage here - marines can turret up a hive and prevent the aliens from getting their full potential technology, but the marines can build their technology anywhere, even redundantly backing it up if neccessary.
Well, actually, I was gonna say, the resource patch and some experienced Alien players would even out the odds already... This rather looks like an odd for the new players to get used to Alien. I foresee another patch coming to revert these things back to normal (or some of it)
I guess this would make the 3rd hive much more crucial. With this, aliens with 3rd hive is going to win no matter what...
Ok to you guys say this is to much. let me ask this. alot of the time humans will have a base near a hive and be almost to much for aliens. I think most of the people who are worried are the humans players. I would like to see someone take out there defs with 2 hives. Here is a point. 1 commander can make one person into anything. a nader a weilder. it takes time for us to be our best when humans can be it with a click of a button. This is a edge by itself. why take the time to become a fader when you die almost as fast a skulk? Want to know a edge? ok Someone has to be a commander to humans to win. i see alot of tatics going on but way aliens are setup people dont want to be a builder and heal people. I find i am the only medic alien on sever most of the time. setting up defs healing faders i have a very good rep as being the commander of aliens. Even then the over power turret rush and lack of power of range for aliens means our downfall.
FamDiaper-Wearing Dog On A BallJoin Date: 2002-02-17Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Build a room full of turrets near the position of a large alien structure farm. 5 or 6 senties will be enough, although 12 is not uncommon. Then build a siege cannon in the middle of that After blowing a bunch of aliens away with the siege cannon, move up and do the same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That costs <b>so</b> much to do. Come the resource balance, a team who is ABLE to use this tactic deserves to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think ultimately we're proably going to end up having to prevent sentry turrets from firing on things not in LOS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sentry turrets only fire on things within their LOS anyhow. I don't understand this bit or what it would achieve.
Admittedly, a cannon that can shoot through walls is undoubtedly pretty frustrating, especially if you don't see it coming. But to remove the shooting through walls would be to completely nerf the siege cannon. The siege cannon is used in times when marine weapons would be totally impractical to use against alien structures -- so if you have the time to sit down and build a turret factory, upgrade it, and the build siege cannon in the direct line of the structures you're trying to destroy, why bother using a siege cannon at all? Why not just knife it to death and save yourself resources? And I don't see how you can call this "abuse" of siege cannons -- it's exactly what they're intended for.
Furthermore, for the most part it's very difficult for a decent-size marine squadron to move to a position within siege range of a hive without being detected by any aliens. They run a high risk of being seen no matter if they take a spacious main route, or a cramped vent. Even if you can't kill any of the marines, you should at least try to parasite them or report their position to your teammates. If your team knows where they are, it's only a matter of putting a good concentrated attack together, especially if you can get there quickly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fam+Nov 5 2002, 09:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fam @ Nov 5 2002, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That costs <b>so</b> much to do. Come the resource balance, a team who is ABLE to use this tactic deserves to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends on the size of the game - for me, this is not too hard to do at all. 1 turret factory (20) + say about 6 turrets (102) + 1 turret factory upgrade (20) + 1 siege turret (20ish?) = ~150.
The thing is, a good sized marine team can bring in considerable income. A previous player commented on how the econmy is fubared right now. I've commanded for a few good sized marine games, and towards the end found myself in excess of several thousand nano sludge even leaving the marines well supplied.
Besides, this little neigh invincible fortress for only 150 nano sludge can easily take down an equivilent amount of resources on the alien side, and more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sentry turrets only fire on things within their LOS anyhow. I don't understand this bit or what it would achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, corrected this, I meant SIEGE turrets not sentry turrets. You know, the turrets that don't require LOS and shoot right through walls.
I know this has been mentioned before, but I'd just like to add how I feel also. For whatever reason, I find it extremely more satisfying when the marines are losing the round and are the underdogs. If it were up to me, I would make each alien comparable to maybe 1.5 marines, with a really good alien being able to take out 2 marines without too much trouble (at a comparable level of upgrade). To keep the win/loss ratio still bearable, make the teams (autoswitch) favor the marines. Obviously, what might seem fun to me won't to everyone and it may not even be fun to me if implemented.
Anyways, like a good sci fi movie, I want to feel, as a marine, like i'm never going to get out of there alive and be scared to go around the corner (even if I do have heavy armor and a hmg) without a teammate or two. I haven't play as marine too much yet, but when I do the only time I ever worry about not having a teammate is in the beginning of the round when skulks are so great. I get all this theory from the beginning of rounds, where there is no doubt I have the most fun in any game i've ever played. The beginning of the round is so much fun because as a skulk you are really a force to be reckoned with, and all your sneaking around and quickness pays off. But, it is also fun as a marine because you really have to pay attention and sneak around yourself and you're the underdog. If you could somehow recreate this feeling for the entire round, I would be exponentially less frustrated playing as aliens and marines.
I also understand that its a good idea to have the gameplay shift as the round moves along, and this is very well executed in the current version. When you join the game you get feeling of the defenses being built up and scouting being done, and then the game shifts to more face to face battles and assaulting and then finally one of the teams gets beaten back and has to lay everything on the line.
So how you could incorporate those last two paragraphs into one game, I can only make suggestions, but it may be a bit late for me to say anything constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Acid rocket rate of fire increased from .66 to 1.0 (shots per second) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may have been said already (didnt bother reading every page its late <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
But shouldn't that read the acid rocket rate of fire increased from 1.0 to 0.66 (shots per second)
what u said means that the rof has been decreased from 1 acid rocket every 2/3 of a second to 1acid rocket every second
Doesn't matter much to me either way. I usually run out of energy firing off acid rockets very quickly, even with Adrenline upgrade, so the limiting factor for me isn't how fast I can fire them but how much energy I get to fire them with.
I think all of those changes are great. The only addition I would make is to increase aliens ablitiy to take out turrets or to decrease how good turrets are.
If the aliens only have one hive and the marine have built sentries in the other two it's game over as the aliens don't have anything to take them out. Sulks get cut to pieces if there is more than one (let alone 4+), Gorg spit takes 3 minutes to kill just one and that flying aliens long range attack takes almost as long. It is slighty better with two hives as they have acid rocket but that still takes ages. A long Marine on the other hand can take out a number of towers in less than a minute with just a LMG. With a HMG or grenade launcher it only gets worse.
Anyway it is nice to see you've reconised the problem. I was getting sick of sycophants saying shut up, the game is balanced perfectly.
They way i read it u get 1 shot per 1 sec instead of 2/3 of a shot every sec.
Ok my views and opinions dont mean much around here (yet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but here they are anyway:
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> Well Ok I understand why the marines need them, however i find it a miracle that the gun can see the buildings but not tell anyone else. I mean if the gun can see thro walls at buildings why not give the marines some goggles as well? OVER POWERED! i hear you scream and yup thats right, so i was thinking this: the siege cannon can only shot thro walls when its within the range of a turret controller/whatever-its-called. "EH?" you say "but it has to be within range when u build it anyway" and I say "well whatta bout if the controller gets destroyered" and then you say "aahhhh what a brilliant idea Funk, heres ?50." Or whatta bout if the marines had to 'tag' the buildings first, say shoot it with a little targeting gun that then feeds the position of where it was into the <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> so that it can target that place, complex coding I know but it'd still be cool.
The whole <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> topic
now thats all cricket when the patch comes out hopefully so no worries there. I personally think that the aliens dont need to be upgraded, only the marines to be taken down a tone. A grenade I woulda thought would do double damage vs flesh instead of metal, but thats just me.
Actually as a test I hope u DO make these changes so I can laugh at all the people running into the aliens side when it becomes appart that they now stronger then the marines.
People I cant stand: they come into a game and think '"OMG the aliens have more players then the marines! QUICKLY! i better make the teams even more uneven coz im a sap!" *joins the aliens*'
LOLOLOLOL .... Wait a min... WAIT A MINUTE HERE...
Im owning marines as a fade right now and you are upgrading me and downgrading them?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> haha.... I almost feel sorry for the little guys <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->...... almost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's an idea, keep your hive guarded enough they cant build a seige.
Better yet, just win!
Even better, go beat somebody up and take their money...
i sense i have gone too far..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
here is a idea. Try guarding a hive with a good fps person who jumps and shoots without worry of recoil. We got to get close to them they can take us out far away.
<!--QuoteBegin--Radiocage+Nov 5 2002, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Radiocage @ Nov 5 2002, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's an idea, keep your hive guarded enough they cant build a seige.
Better yet, just win!
Even better, go beat somebody up and take their money...
i sense i have gone too far.....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. Great idea. Now the aliens will never lose thanks to your wonderful suggestions.
Okay, here is a, In My Not So Humble Opinion, bloody brilliant and back-story compatable idea to balance siege turrets: Keep the cost, damage, range, and all that stuff the same. You may want to even pump up the damage a little. However, serverly reduce/eliminate splash radius/damage. You don't want to tear the ship apart and let all that nasty vacuum in, do you? I thought not... The brilliant part: According to the back-story, the siege turret compares the gravitational well thingies to <b>a database of known enemy buildings</b>. So, to balance out the siege's ability to open cans of <EDIT> uh... vanilla pudding </EDIT>, make each grav-well pattern cost resources. This could be explained away as differences between the 'regular' alien structure and ones that are paticularly used in that ship/base. Hives would be the most different, so they'd cost the most to be able to target (And maybe have each hive purchased serperatly). Resource towers would have the least variation, followed by offensive chambers, then the other chambers, then hives. Under the current resource model (Gads of resources, for the marines especially),some example costs: To enable siege turrets to target ___ costs ____ Resource towers (Alien) : 25 resources Offensive chambers : 50 resources Other chambers (Each) : 40 resources Hives : 200 resources for the bunch, or 120 per hive.
Thus, to make siege turrets able to destroy hives, you'd need to shell out an extra 200/120 resources. Mind you, that ability wouldn't go away until the game ends, so...
Under the theoretical patched economy, you'd want costs more like Resource towers - 15 Offensive chambers - 25 Other chambers - 40 Hives - 150 for the bunch (Come on! The ability to destroy the hives through walls!) or 80 per hive (Same cost as building one)
The grav-well information processing would be done at an advanced turret factory, and could possibly require an observatory.
Or, if that's WAAY to much effort, use one of these instead:
Idea #2 Require LOS from a marine onto the target. Would let the aliens deal with it without having to kamikaze into turret patches. Problem would be that marines would camp in vents (More) to destroy hives.
Idea #3 As #2, but require a secondary-weapon laser-pointer thing to be pointed at the target. It would still only attack buildings. Same disadvantage as #2, but they have to put the lazer-thing away before they can shoot you.
Idea #4 The commander personally 'calls down the thunder'. All sieges in range would fire on the target simultaneously. The problem is you'd have to make it only-buildings somehow.
Edit: The swear-filter changes curses to **obscenity**? Might as well go the comedic route and make it **expletive deleted**. Edit #2: Had to do some number fiddling... didn't make sense. Edit #3: Added down-side to #2 and 3
<!--QuoteBegin--Tieom+Nov 6 2002, 12:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tieom @ Nov 6 2002, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Idea #3 As #2, but require a secondary-weapon laser-pointer thing to be pointed at the target. It would still only attack buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> basically the same as my idea but i gave them a chance to run away like little girls
Comments
I don't want to overcorrect either, I have to think about it more and watch more games.
If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don;t know if you will be able to track that bug down before hard coding the resource rate into the game. Isolate the changes you want to make now then when the rate is consistant it should be easier to track down that bug if there is one. I think the GL and cost changes makes sense, but leave the fade alone until a second patch if it is needed. Being a constant alien player I like fades the way they are... It is the whole marine squad in hvy armor and hvy mg/gl with 80 turrets that hurt the game.
Also since you are reading this thread... what is up with offensive and defensive chambers having a limited number in an area but turrets do not... Perhaps you can make turret factories only support so many turrets (siege count as double) forcing marines to build multiple turret factories in an area to saturate it with turrets... It would atleast add 25 - 75 resource points to the cost of these turret forts.
I think you have made one great mod. just some minor tweaks and I can see this rivaling CS, DOD, TFC. Keep up the good work.
The resource bug is when one team is down to very few players, say, 2 v 5.
The team with 2 will get their resources replenished INSTANTLY. And upgrade INSTANTLY.
I'm actually not sure if this happens with Marines, I've only experienced it with aliens.
As soon as teams start balancing out, the bug goes away.
Oh, btw, it would be real nice (i'm sure this is not trivial to just "plug in") to have 3rd person perspective for the aliens. Trying to run and chomp is hard to track in first person. As a marine it's much easier to back up, track, and shoot the alien; than it is for the alien to run forward and bite.
imho.
HTH,
Niteowl
PS this mod ROCKS soo much. like crack cocaine. like.. something else as addictive. I've been pining away for Hitman 2 for a few months. A production "professional" game. Now, after being natural selection addicted, i'm like, "Hitman what?!?"
awesome, fantastic, AMAZING work. thanks!!
If it seems challenging to bite in first person, it's because it's supposed to be.
Anyway, it's looking great. Well played all involved.
I like.
btw: about all thse "alien success stories:" they don't refelct the effectiveness of the alien team as a whole. Every time you hear an alien success story that makes you think "maybe aliens ARE truly balanced" just think that one of those comes every 5 games or so.
Then we have the issue of marines getting hvy mg's before the aliens can even build a second hive. Resources are just very slow comming to the aliens because you might have 3 builders spread out between three hives trying to build items. The marines on the other hand only have one central resource point which in the end almost triples the amount of resources they get vs the aliens since its centralized.
This game does have the potentiol to be the next dod but some major tweaks need to be made not these minor ones. The scales are still way tipped over to the marines and it shows on the servers. For example last night we had people joining the server and everyone kept joining the marines. It finally got to the point where we had 9 marines on 5 aliens. Players know which side is the winning one and they get sick of playing aliens and losing all the time.
Everyone knows that once the marines take over one hive its over with. The only time I have seen the aliens win is with a newb commander that didnt send his marines to camp a hive out with turrents immediately. This game is not player vs player its aliens versus rooms full of marine turrents and the aliens are losing bad. Marines can build their turrents and leave since they pretty much know the aliens can not take them out. And I mean a group of aliens. While on the other hand its sad when one marine can walk into a whole room of alien turrents and take them out without breaking a sweat. Marines get upgrades when they research why cant the aliens get turrent upgrades when they build defense towers, get firing rate upgrades for the turrents when they build movement turrents and get accuracy and range increased when they build observation turrents. This would probably help some but still the marine turrents are still near immpossible for a group of low lvl aliens to take out while low lvl marines can walk right through alien turrents. And can we get a cap put on the amount of turrents that can be put in one area. I think I can put 5 turrents right next to each other and not have any problems. While I think its 4 alien turrents before I start getting the warning. But even then all i have to do is walk a couple of feet and i can build more. I would suggest making a set limit to the amount of turrents that can be built per turrent factory. Also if the turrents factory goes down, why dont the turrents stop working?
Seige turrent ranges need to be cut in half. Yesterday the marines pretty much camped us by putting turrents anywhere they could and took over a central room that was pretty much inbetween two hives. We never saw one marine try to enter the hive because all they did was build seige turrents in this room that for some ungodly reason had the range to take out two hives completly without one marine setting foot into the hive. Hey siege turrents are great but limit them to only being built in the marine start area. Because the trend the game is going to now is camp the hives with turrents and just wait till you can build seige turrents and let them take out the whole hive. So much for the pvp this goes back to the aliens vs turrents.
I want to see this game excel and become the next dod but unbalancing issues are sometimes unbearable.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd like everyone to read this. In case someone forgot, this is a beta release. Everything about the game mechanics will most likely be in flux for the next 6 months at least. The changes/fixes made right now might not be in the release after this one, see what i'm saying? Just relax. Nothing is permenant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have played several games as a marine where they have 1000+ resources. However, these games were ones that I joined midway into and therefore do not know how long they had been running before I joined. 1000 might seem like a lot, but 2 hours with a commander that isn't buying stuff would give you that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The team with 2 will get their resources replenished INSTANTLY. And upgrade INSTANTLY.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an alien phenomenon because of the nature of the alien resource model, which I will explain.
All resources gained are divided evenly among the aliens playing. If at any point in time an alien is at its personal capacity to hold resources the extra resources are stockpiled in the hives, and then redistributed. If an alien quits, the resources are sent back to the hive. This will lead to situations where an alien team that has been doing good, eg, not having to re-evolve every 2 minutes having a seemingly endless amount of resources.
This does not happen with marines because the resources gained are immediatly stored and the commander is given access to them. No division.
As a disclaimer: I am about 90% sure this is all correct, it has been put together through a lot of discussion and reading. If one of the team notices anything incorrect, please correct.
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
NOT pretty. Also, marines have learned "for the most part" to look up, look around. look behind. look everywhere. You usually wont be able to take down a good player from stealth. also. when biting someone. all they have to do is jump. cant hit them. ever been an onos? what happens when the marine ducks? I have snuck up behind someone and bit them 4 or five times. he had heavy armor, was able to turn around and kill me and only lost all his armor and 2hp. I have tried tried to out bite someone with heavy armor and him using knife. Marine won.
I absolutely love the game.
btw try reading this post. may be for resource bug
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8722' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...t=ST&f=1&t=8722</a>
Last thoughts. Aliens SHOULD have the upper hand. Marines have the range of thier guns to compensate and a commander that can give them what ever they want. If i play a marine i want to be scared that an alien will pop out somewhere and i have to stop it. Right now, as marine, even on servers that dont fidle with resource code, all marines have to do is get up a turret factory and some turrets and they can sit back and upgrade. There is no fear of aliens there. I really hope this patch puts the fear back into being a marine.
in a 12 on 12 three times etc.
The value of resources to the Kharaa is much less than for the marines, while the value of time to the Kharaa is much greater. Thus, doubling the resource income meant the Kharaa has LESS than half the time - maybe even just a quarter of the time - before the dreaded HMG's and HA's appear.
The solution is extremly simple. Don't multiply the income with the number of players and remove the (then unecessary) ns_playerresourcescalar variable.
More on this in the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8722' target='_blank'>NS_playerresourcescalar Considered Harmful</a> thread. For timing issues, you may consider reading the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=8684' target='_blank'>Khara Resource Model and One Gorge Strategy</a>
add redemption and adrenaline and the two are good for walking into the marine base and causing all kinds of havoc.
If it seems challenging to bite in first person, it's because it's supposed to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just as a polite inquiry, I take it this means third person was tried during development and caused problems of some kind?
If this is true, any chance of finding out what these problems were?
If that's not true, why so adamant against any support of third person view?
Yes, it's an absolute pain to make third-person work in a confined space for any kind of ranged attacks, Alice is about the only successful 'third person crosshair' I know of, and it only worked because the areas weren't super-confined like Natural Selection. But for melee, third person does make sense.
But, purposefully making biting more difficult by obscuring the view, or claiming that that's the reason to obscure the view with the jaws, seems... silly. Someone will just set their near-clipping just far enough out to cut off the gun at some point then, if nothing else. Or just disable the view-model on the jaws. Either is quite simple to do as far as I can tell, since it doesn't increase the size of the model any, and therefore doesn't trip any of the anti-cheating measures I know of.
And yes, I'm kinda playing devils advocate here, because the... vigor behind your rebutal of third-person mode seems overly strong, but I know I wasn't part of development so I know I don't have all the facts. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> Yes Siege Cannons.
Here's a nasty tactic I've seen diehard marine commanders do which I haven't been able to find a good defence against, especially if your down to 1 or 2 hives:
Build a room full of turrets near the position of a large alien structure farm. 5 or 6 senties will be enough, although 12 is not uncommon. Then build a siege cannon in the middle of that. After blowing a bunch of alien structures away with the siege cannon, move up closer to the hive and do the same thing. Repeat until alien hive is popped.
What are the aliens supposed to do about this? The aliens only real chance is to attack the marines before they get the turrets assembled at all, but this is easier said than done. This involves a fullscale attack on a highly defended position of 5-12 turrets. As far as I can tell, the only way to handle that many turrets is to bring in some Lerks with umbra to hurt the turrets effectiveness. Then head in and bite the turrets to death before the umbra dissipates. This takes time, more than enough time than it takes to assemble siege turrets. To make it even more incidious, Marines can counter against umbra with grenades. End result: Even superior numbers of well organized Aliens are pushed back relentlessly by well organized marines.
If you have only one hive and the marines are doing this against you, the game might as well be over.
My thoughts:
This patch does help a bit against that since it lowers the potency of grenades and raises durability of the frontline aliens who are supposed to counter this.
There should be a limiting factor on marine turrets other than the economy. Maybe a limit of 4 sentry turrets or 1 siege turret per factory or something.
I think ultimately we're proably going to end up having to prevent siege turrets from firing on things not in direct LOS to prevent them from being abused.
Something preventing turrets from being built in alien hives may be neccessary too. The marines have an unfair advantage here - marines can turret up a hive and prevent the aliens from getting their full potential technology, but the marines can build their technology anywhere, even redundantly backing it up if neccessary.
I guess this would make the 3rd hive much more crucial. With this, aliens with 3rd hive is going to win no matter what...
That costs <b>so</b> much to do. Come the resource balance, a team who is ABLE to use this tactic deserves to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think ultimately we're proably going to end up having to prevent sentry turrets from firing on things not in LOS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentry turrets only fire on things within their LOS anyhow. I don't understand this bit or what it would achieve.
NSTWEIYCIASC ?
Furthermore, for the most part it's very difficult for a decent-size marine squadron to move to a position within siege range of a hive without being detected by any aliens. They run a high risk of being seen no matter if they take a spacious main route, or a cramped vent. Even if you can't kill any of the marines, you should at least try to parasite them or report their position to your teammates. If your team knows where they are, it's only a matter of putting a good concentrated attack together, especially if you can get there quickly.
Depends on the size of the game - for me, this is not too hard to do at all. 1 turret factory (20) + say about 6 turrets (102) + 1 turret factory upgrade (20) + 1 siege turret (20ish?) = ~150.
The thing is, a good sized marine team can bring in considerable income. A previous player commented on how the econmy is fubared right now. I've commanded for a few good sized marine games, and towards the end found myself in excess of several thousand nano sludge even leaving the marines well supplied.
Besides, this little neigh invincible fortress for only 150 nano sludge can easily take down an equivilent amount of resources on the alien side, and more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sentry turrets only fire on things within their LOS anyhow. I don't understand this bit or what it would achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, corrected this, I meant SIEGE turrets not sentry turrets. You know, the turrets that don't require LOS and shoot right through walls.
Anyways, like a good sci fi movie, I want to feel, as a marine, like i'm never going to get out of there alive and be scared to go around the corner (even if I do have heavy armor and a hmg) without a teammate or two. I haven't play as marine too much yet, but when I do the only time I ever worry about not having a teammate is in the beginning of the round when skulks are so great. I get all this theory from the beginning of rounds, where there is no doubt I have the most fun in any game i've ever played. The beginning of the round is so much fun because as a skulk you are really a force to be reckoned with, and all your sneaking around and quickness pays off. But, it is also fun as a marine because you really have to pay attention and sneak around yourself and you're the underdog. If you could somehow recreate this feeling for the entire round, I would be exponentially less frustrated playing as aliens and marines.
I also understand that its a good idea to have the gameplay shift as the round moves along, and this is very well executed in the current version. When you join the game you get feeling of the defenses being built up and scouting being done, and then the game shifts to more face to face battles and assaulting and then finally one of the teams gets beaten back and has to lay everything on the line.
So how you could incorporate those last two paragraphs into one game, I can only make suggestions, but it may be a bit late for me to say anything constructive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may have been said already (didnt bother reading every page its late <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
But shouldn't that read the acid rocket rate of fire increased from 1.0 to 0.66 (shots per second)
what u said means that the rof has been decreased from 1 acid rocket every 2/3 of a second to 1acid rocket every second
If the aliens only have one hive and the marine have built sentries in the other two it's game over as the aliens don't have anything to take them out. Sulks get cut to pieces if there is more than one (let alone 4+), Gorg spit takes 3 minutes to kill just one and that flying aliens long range attack takes almost as long. It is slighty better with two hives as they have acid rocket but that still takes ages. A long Marine on the other hand can take out a number of towers in less than a minute with just a LMG. With a HMG or grenade launcher it only gets worse.
Anyway it is nice to see you've reconised the problem. I was getting sick of sycophants saying shut up, the game is balanced perfectly.
Ok my views and opinions dont mean much around here (yet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but here they are anyway:
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well Ok I understand why the marines need them, however i find it a miracle that the gun can see the buildings but not tell anyone else. I mean if the gun can see thro walls at buildings why not give the marines some goggles as well? OVER POWERED! i hear you scream and yup thats right, so i was thinking this: the siege cannon can only shot thro walls when its within the range of a turret controller/whatever-its-called. "EH?" you say "but it has to be within range when u build it anyway" and I say "well whatta bout if the controller gets destroyered" and then you say "aahhhh what a brilliant idea Funk, heres ?50."
Or whatta bout if the marines had to 'tag' the buildings first, say shoot it with a little targeting gun that then feeds the position of where it was into the <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> so that it can target that place, complex coding I know but it'd still be cool.
The whole <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> topic
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> (even) results
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> for the little <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
now thats all cricket when the patch comes out hopefully so no worries there.
I personally think that the aliens dont need to be upgraded, only the marines to be taken down a tone. A grenade I woulda thought would do double damage vs flesh instead of metal, but thats just me.
Actually as a test I hope u DO make these changes so I can laugh at all the people running into the aliens side when it becomes appart that they now stronger then the marines.
People I cant stand: they come into a game and think '"OMG the aliens have more players then the marines! QUICKLY! i better make the teams even more uneven coz im a sap!" *joins the aliens*'
*shakes head* its not cricket.
Better yet, just win!
Even better, go beat somebody up and take their money...
i sense i have gone too far.....
Im owning marines as a fade right now and you are upgrading me and downgrading them?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> haha.... I almost feel sorry for the little guys <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->...... almost.
Better yet, just win!
Even better, go beat somebody up and take their money...
i sense i have gone too far.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
here is a idea. Try guarding a hive with a good fps person who jumps and shoots without worry of recoil. We got to get close to them they can take us out far away.
Better yet, just win!
Even better, go beat somebody up and take their money...
i sense i have gone too far.....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. Great idea. Now the aliens will never lose thanks to your wonderful suggestions.
Keep the cost, damage, range, and all that stuff the same. You may want to even pump up the damage a little. However, serverly reduce/eliminate splash radius/damage. You don't want to tear the ship apart and let all that nasty vacuum in, do you? I thought not...
The brilliant part: According to the back-story, the siege turret compares the gravitational well thingies to <b>a database of known enemy buildings</b>. So, to balance out the siege's ability to open cans of <EDIT> uh... vanilla pudding </EDIT>, make each grav-well pattern cost resources. This could be explained away as differences between the 'regular' alien structure and ones that are paticularly used in that ship/base. Hives would be the most different, so they'd cost the most to be able to target (And maybe have each hive purchased serperatly). Resource towers would have the least variation, followed by offensive chambers, then the other chambers, then hives.
Under the current resource model (Gads of resources, for the marines especially),some example costs:
To enable siege turrets to target ___ costs ____
Resource towers (Alien) : 25 resources
Offensive chambers : 50 resources
Other chambers (Each) : 40 resources
Hives : 200 resources for the bunch, or 120 per hive.
Thus, to make siege turrets able to destroy hives, you'd need to shell out an extra 200/120 resources. Mind you, that ability wouldn't go away until the game ends, so...
Under the theoretical patched economy, you'd want costs more like
Resource towers - 15
Offensive chambers - 25
Other chambers - 40
Hives - 150 for the bunch (Come on! The ability to destroy the hives through walls!) or 80 per hive (Same cost as building one)
The grav-well information processing would be done at an advanced turret factory, and could possibly require an observatory.
Or, if that's WAAY to much effort, use one of these instead:
Idea #2
Require LOS from a marine onto the target. Would let the aliens deal with it without having to kamikaze into turret patches. Problem would be that marines would camp in vents (More) to destroy hives.
Idea #3
As #2, but require a secondary-weapon laser-pointer thing to be pointed at the target. It would still only attack buildings. Same disadvantage as #2, but they have to put the lazer-thing away before they can shoot you.
Idea #4
The commander personally 'calls down the thunder'. All sieges in range would fire on the target simultaneously. The problem is you'd have to make it only-buildings somehow.
Edit: The swear-filter changes curses to **obscenity**? Might as well go the comedic route and make it **expletive deleted**.
Edit #2: Had to do some number fiddling... didn't make sense.
Edit #3: Added down-side to #2 and 3
As #2, but require a secondary-weapon laser-pointer thing to be pointed at the target. It would still only attack buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
basically the same as my idea but i gave them a chance to run away like little girls