What Makes A Good Map?
Elm0
Join Date: 2005-01-15 Member: 35836Members
Join Date: 2005-01-15 Member: 35836Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A discussion on out-of-date guidelines.</div> Ive recently given thought about returning to mapping for NS. Im at Uni now and have more spare time to map. (Behind a firewall so i cant actually be PLAYING instead of mapping <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Looking through a number of "Ns mapping Guidelines", ive found a few of them rather vague, and some more of them out of date with today's Ns gameplay.
I was hoping to get a discussion going here on what we think makes a good map. Obviously aesthetics and scenery are good, but anyone who's ever played Multiplayer Halo or Goldeneye on the N64 will tell you, a map can have VERY basic textures and be hugely successful just because of its planning and layout.
Now in a game like NS, these are more crucial than ever, and there is a very fine balance between a good map and a bad one. One wall too close to a hive, giving a cheap seige location, or a too-easy-to-defend node can make the difference between a challenging map and an alien massacre.
The following are a few points i consider key to NS maps. Not in any particular order, just what i pull out of my head.
- Seige - As i said, a badly placed seige location can be the end of a map before its begun. Although seige may be the only option for a sneaky win for the marines, it should still be something they have to work for. Although a good alien team can take out most seige rushes, our maps are still plagued by some seige locations directly next to a hive, yet nowhere near it in walking terms. Locations such as Cargo storage (Tanith), The side of comp core (Eclipse) and Auxialliary Command (Outside port hive on Nancy) are what i would consider un-fair seige spots.
- Weldables - Although the simple open door/close door, open vent/close vent welds are all well and good, i think weldables are not properly utilized in NS. This is a strategic and tactical game, and weldables could do so much more. Areas could be flooded/unflooded to help marine movement, opening up a path that was previously suicide. Also, the use of weldable lighting is one i dont think is used often enough. Welding a computer console to turn on lights in a dark area/s could become as important an objective as hitting the hives. A hive could be very hard to attack or even inaccessible until a weldable is welded, making it an important objective for winning the game.
- Running Time - Ive seen it written many a time that the running time from Marine start to any alien spawn should be at least 30 seconds. Could this time be possibly longer? Or extended by putting obstacles in the marines way while not nessecarily lengthening the distance between MS and Hive.l
- Water - Again, something i dont see used very often, not sure what peoples veiw on it is. It can make a good obstacle for marines; a hive twenty second from marine start could be alot further away than it seems when 15 of those seconds have to be spent underwater, vulnerable to attack.
- Vents - This seems to go from one extreme to another on many different scales. Some maps such as Nancy have an effective and endless network of vents that are not too overpowering to the aliens. However, they are very thin and many do not let aliens pass each other. Some maps on the other hand have hardly any vents at all, save for two or three very coincidentally placed ones that dont fit realistically. Would it be better to have a large realistic network of vents, above and below floor-level, or have no vents at all but better alien cover to compensate?
- Ninjability - I am a ninja by trade, a far cry from the headless "rambo", i follow orders and when it is required, sneak to a hive for that elusive pg rush. Some maps are more helpful that other however. Maps such as Origin are great for sneaking about, offering many realistic and beleivable hiding places. Are realistic hiding places a good thing? Or would a map that requires teamwork and squad co-operation to move through a map be better?
- Light - Many a good map has been utterly slated because of its use of light. Some brilliant maps are very dark and so immediately shelved by noobs everywhere because they cant see, not caring for the atmosphere it may produce. Linking in with the weldables lights, would destroyable lights be a good idea? Lights that can be turned off (Such as in co_blackmesa)? Should a map be all brighty and dandy so everyone can see everyone else?
- Layout - The obvious key element, and one much contested. Do you have a central CC? Spread out hives or closely linked ones? Areas on the map that generally dont go toward a hive at all, giving marines other objectives to go for?
- RT's - How many, how far from each other, and where? I think every hive should have an RT inside it. Generator hive in Caged is a good example of what happens when a hive has no integral RT. Also, what do you feel about double nodes? Alright as long as they are open wide and require defending? Should they be easier to seige than hives?
- Levels - Differences in height can make or break a map. Instances such as ns_nothing can result in rines getting blocked, gameplay being abused, severe choke points and nade-holes being created. On the other hand, a large ladder or other element that keeps a marine stationary or not aiming properly can make it easier for aliens to defend an otherwise straight corridor.
- Commanders Veiw - Its stated as gospel that no area should be un-veiwable by the commander. However i feel that this may not nessecarily be true. Why can't we have dangerous areas and short-cuts that are not veiwable by the comm? In exchange for a quick short cut to a hive, the marine wont have the commander to hold his hand, med spam him. A dark underground sewer could be made all the more intimidating if you know the comm cant help you if a skulk jumps you.
Thats all ive really got for now. Anyway, what do you think? Im posting this discussion on a few boards for NS players, hoping to get a good veiw from across the board. I'd like to get feed-back for my own maps, but also for a possible renewed mapping guidelines peice id like to write.
So, what are your thoughts?
Looking through a number of "Ns mapping Guidelines", ive found a few of them rather vague, and some more of them out of date with today's Ns gameplay.
I was hoping to get a discussion going here on what we think makes a good map. Obviously aesthetics and scenery are good, but anyone who's ever played Multiplayer Halo or Goldeneye on the N64 will tell you, a map can have VERY basic textures and be hugely successful just because of its planning and layout.
Now in a game like NS, these are more crucial than ever, and there is a very fine balance between a good map and a bad one. One wall too close to a hive, giving a cheap seige location, or a too-easy-to-defend node can make the difference between a challenging map and an alien massacre.
The following are a few points i consider key to NS maps. Not in any particular order, just what i pull out of my head.
- Seige - As i said, a badly placed seige location can be the end of a map before its begun. Although seige may be the only option for a sneaky win for the marines, it should still be something they have to work for. Although a good alien team can take out most seige rushes, our maps are still plagued by some seige locations directly next to a hive, yet nowhere near it in walking terms. Locations such as Cargo storage (Tanith), The side of comp core (Eclipse) and Auxialliary Command (Outside port hive on Nancy) are what i would consider un-fair seige spots.
- Weldables - Although the simple open door/close door, open vent/close vent welds are all well and good, i think weldables are not properly utilized in NS. This is a strategic and tactical game, and weldables could do so much more. Areas could be flooded/unflooded to help marine movement, opening up a path that was previously suicide. Also, the use of weldable lighting is one i dont think is used often enough. Welding a computer console to turn on lights in a dark area/s could become as important an objective as hitting the hives. A hive could be very hard to attack or even inaccessible until a weldable is welded, making it an important objective for winning the game.
- Running Time - Ive seen it written many a time that the running time from Marine start to any alien spawn should be at least 30 seconds. Could this time be possibly longer? Or extended by putting obstacles in the marines way while not nessecarily lengthening the distance between MS and Hive.l
- Water - Again, something i dont see used very often, not sure what peoples veiw on it is. It can make a good obstacle for marines; a hive twenty second from marine start could be alot further away than it seems when 15 of those seconds have to be spent underwater, vulnerable to attack.
- Vents - This seems to go from one extreme to another on many different scales. Some maps such as Nancy have an effective and endless network of vents that are not too overpowering to the aliens. However, they are very thin and many do not let aliens pass each other. Some maps on the other hand have hardly any vents at all, save for two or three very coincidentally placed ones that dont fit realistically. Would it be better to have a large realistic network of vents, above and below floor-level, or have no vents at all but better alien cover to compensate?
- Ninjability - I am a ninja by trade, a far cry from the headless "rambo", i follow orders and when it is required, sneak to a hive for that elusive pg rush. Some maps are more helpful that other however. Maps such as Origin are great for sneaking about, offering many realistic and beleivable hiding places. Are realistic hiding places a good thing? Or would a map that requires teamwork and squad co-operation to move through a map be better?
- Light - Many a good map has been utterly slated because of its use of light. Some brilliant maps are very dark and so immediately shelved by noobs everywhere because they cant see, not caring for the atmosphere it may produce. Linking in with the weldables lights, would destroyable lights be a good idea? Lights that can be turned off (Such as in co_blackmesa)? Should a map be all brighty and dandy so everyone can see everyone else?
- Layout - The obvious key element, and one much contested. Do you have a central CC? Spread out hives or closely linked ones? Areas on the map that generally dont go toward a hive at all, giving marines other objectives to go for?
- RT's - How many, how far from each other, and where? I think every hive should have an RT inside it. Generator hive in Caged is a good example of what happens when a hive has no integral RT. Also, what do you feel about double nodes? Alright as long as they are open wide and require defending? Should they be easier to seige than hives?
- Levels - Differences in height can make or break a map. Instances such as ns_nothing can result in rines getting blocked, gameplay being abused, severe choke points and nade-holes being created. On the other hand, a large ladder or other element that keeps a marine stationary or not aiming properly can make it easier for aliens to defend an otherwise straight corridor.
- Commanders Veiw - Its stated as gospel that no area should be un-veiwable by the commander. However i feel that this may not nessecarily be true. Why can't we have dangerous areas and short-cuts that are not veiwable by the comm? In exchange for a quick short cut to a hive, the marine wont have the commander to hold his hand, med spam him. A dark underground sewer could be made all the more intimidating if you know the comm cant help you if a skulk jumps you.
Thats all ive really got for now. Anyway, what do you think? Im posting this discussion on a few boards for NS players, hoping to get a good veiw from across the board. I'd like to get feed-back for my own maps, but also for a possible renewed mapping guidelines peice id like to write.
So, what are your thoughts?
Comments
double nodes is very important but not siegeable wil turn hard balance the map. amybe sigeable in 2 points u cant siege the both nodes at same time or made a triple when u only can siege 2 nodes each point.
ladder is slow down marines aliens and unsafe marines ladding.
levels is terrible to drop builds medpacks could pas to udner level or make madness with hang stuuff like cage marine start some times u drop mines on roof.
lightining is very important to aliens they cant see in darkness and marines can ambush better in darkness like co_core hive.
realistic vent is very important but fakes grill will make same efect but give a hard ways to aliens.
to long walking make boring game.
weldables is very important to open close pass and add ns feeling.
and now the comand acess elevator butons could be place in a hide place to comander open /close door and skull could bite and breake some door fluids to block comander ability to unlock and amke pass if breake in the open moment ou close moment or bite and unlock doors or bite eletrical and make a close door or a pulse door opening and clsoing randoly or make a half close door. to only pass jet packs or marines make a piramid to pass.
centrall cc will make easy marines win because they cut the hive conections
the better way is make long way to midle hive and fast way between near hive
or make 2 hives access by ms and a third one only acess by the other hives.
rts is integral conect with height of rooms if too access room aliens could cut or marines take making a no land place or a tf farm place like generator in nothing.
if comander doesnt act well the marines have a hard game
<ul><li> Siege - I agree there shouldn't be easily defendable seige spots, at least not in convenient locations. If getting to a hard-to-attack siege spot requires the marines to first move through another hive, maybe they've earned a slightly easier attack. I agree that the side of comp core remains too easy of a siege spot. Requiring attacking up a pair of ramps without any vents around is rather tough on aliens. But cargo in tanith is one of the best choke points ever. It's hard for either team to hold for any length of time, so I'm not sure that one's so bad.
</li><li> Weldables - Yes, they can do lots of neat things, but don't forget your entity limits. Don't imagine that lots of mappers haven't thought that a weldable that turns on a bunch of lights and starts a cool spinning fan to block a vent isn't a good idea. It's all the entities that that requires that makes it less likely to go in.
</li><li> Time-to-hive - The 30 second requirement is basically outdated. I don't think any official maps stick to that rule any more. And that's almost too big for most modern NS maps anyway. Huge maps aren't fun to play, because you simply can't keep an eye on the enemy at all times.
</li><li> Vents - "Realistic" vent systems just don't work from a gameplay perspective. For one thing all those little areas take up map resources. For another, no one likes a bunch of repetitive vents that don't go anywhere useful. The vent systems have to be well thought out and play well. Realism comes second. After all, how many real vents are lit?
</li><li> "Ninjability" - (nice word) I think what gives this effect best is simply having alternate ways to get to most important places. If you hear a fade blinking around towards the hive but can take a fork in the road and come to the hive from the other side, it keeps the map interesting.
</li><li> Lighting - Gameplay always trumps atmosphere in this category. It's unfair to call people 'noobs' for wanting to be able to see. We all know that marine flashlights suck and the alien 'flashlight' doesn't do anything for dark areas. Darkness is a disadvantage for both teams, and making areas that are too dark in your map, especially important areas <i>will</i> result in a lot of unhappy players. Instead, make areas that appear dark without actually being too dark. Bast is one of the best examples of this. Thanks to highly contrasting areas of very bright light, its general atmosphere seems a lot darker than it actually is, allowing for nice atmosphere without the aggravation. Destroyable lights, again, take a few entities for each light. All the cool stuff costs resources, unfortunately.
</li><li> Comm view - Never thought of having an area entirely invisible to the comm. It might make for interesting gameplay, but I think the end result would again be a lot of unhappy players. Although there are some areas, like the long hall to generator in caged, that have several ceiling details that break up comm view, making med and ammo drops a bit more difficult. So maybe something more like that wouldn't cause too much aggravation.</li></ul>
All in all, interesting points you make. Be sure to let us know if you do whip up a map with some of your new guidelines.
I think its a shame that were so limited by entity count, otherwise NS maps ouldc be so much cooler =(
And i think ill go have another look at bast, thats a good point you made, that map never seems well lit, but theres few places that you cant actually see whats going on. Double is a perfect example. That shaft of light completely out-shines everything else, but the rest isnt all that dark either.
Onto some other points ive been thinking on...
Marine Start Design - Many people (and their maps) give marines a perfectly acceptable marine start, one thats generally terribly hard to attack and pityfully easy to defend (Tanith, NewHera and Veil come to mind). However, i think that a slightly more challenging marine start would make for far more interesting games.
People seem to moan about balance alot these days. However i think the only problem with balance atm is that marine and aliens are starting at the same start-point. Anyone remember playing the Old hera (Read - The good version) where you had to relocate to hera reception to have ANY chance of survivial? That required relocation always seemed to make the game even. Sure there would be rounds where a team of noob rines would get owned. But other times, when the team successfully got to reception, it then became a struggle to take back the map, AS IT SHOULD BE.
The entire storyline behind most NS maps is that aliens have taken over a base, marines come back to save it. Does it not make sense then that possibly the marines should start a 10 second walk from the CC? They have afterall, just entered the base, and thats when the aliens would become aware of them and start preparing, they wouldnt wait for them to get to the cc...
Alot of my maps also feature some sort of accident at the start of a mission. My latest idea had a set of caverns turned into a base (Much like Black-Mesa). The dropship the rines were coming in crashed into one of these caverns, breaking through the roof, conveniently taking out half of the transit system rail (so that the third hive can be close to MS without actually being reachable), and stranding the rines on a cavern platform on the far side fro the base.
The rines must then climb up a cliff (a very easy climb, but 10-20 seconds non the less) to reach the command station. Even from there they are very limited. The transit system has been wrecked one way, and they must weld a control panel to bring the other train round.
This is of course a bit ambitious, most of my ideas are plagued by entity count, however, the simple act of starting your rines further away from your CC could make things a bit more challenging.
And my second point (Oh god, theres MORE?!) is about Hive Layout. This one is short and simple, i assure you.
How many times have you been spawnkilled as alien? The rines are camping the hive, no matter how small an area it may be, and you just get shot with a shotgun.
I personally think hives should have multiple levels. Even if that second level is only there for aliens to spawn on. Biodome, Furnace, Cargo. Alot of these hives have perfectly good hiding spots large enough for spawn-points, so that aliens wont get spawn-camped, yet i still see 16 team starts wide out in the open. Maybe just by giving half of those starts some cover, aliens wouldnt get spawn-camped so much?
Anyway, im done <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ns_Hulk does this pretty well, the marines start in a drop ship attached to marine start. (The dropship is also visible from a window in a different part of the map, overall a very nice map, look it up <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Spawnkilling is a pain, and I agree that a lot of hives could benefit from a few small changes to make them less campable. Refinery on bast may be the worst, and I've already harassed Mendasp to death about it. But I think every hive should at least have some obstruction so that you can't stand at one side and shoot everything on the other side.
It's true! that's why I put that horrible line in bast's changelog!
Allow me to explain why I think maps like veil, eclipse and tanith are more popular than eon, ayumi and others will ever be.
Firstly, it's NOT visuals. Eon and ayumi are both incredibly good looking maps but they're simply not fun to play. One of the major problems stems from excessive use of things like lips, pipes and random sticking out structures. If you compare the archicture of the eclipse and veil, two very popular maps to the architecture of ayumi then you'll notice it's very simple.
The lips, random sticky out bits and general stuff like that whilst looking very pretty and landing you a job doesn't make for fun play. As a fade you get caught, you can't bunnyhop properly and your movement is hampered a lot. This makes the map tiring and unenjoyable to play. Compare this to veil where there's very little details apart from a few archways and pipes in the ceiling and out the way. You don't have to worry about getting snagged or caught and your movement isn't hampered. Automatically veil is a more enjoyable map to play.
The second reason is the layout. A lot of maps contain usless rooms, long corridors to nowhere and a billion RTs. Whole sections of the map aren't seen during a match, entire routes aren't travelled. There's a lot of excess map that simply gets you lost and annoyed. In veil, eclipse and tanith there are no excess things. You have the hive, MS and any double RTs. The map is then designed around linking up these areas as effectively as possible and then placing RTs in these routes.
Every route in tanith leads somewhere, every path in veil is travelled, every corner of eclipse is seen. There's none of this extra stuff to side track you. The corridors all lead somewhere and direct you to the major locations. Other maps just lead you to other corridors, other random RTs and another stuck point.
It's about this part "The lips, random sticky out bits and general stuff like". This could still be in the game adding to the 'good' look of the map while not hindering the gameplay with the use of clip textured brushes.
as a player I would love to see maps with more chamber sized / skulk sized spots that are great for ambushing and makes rines want to check and look around and be cautious.
but the main thing in a map is functionality / balance, I love me some altair cause it is super super sexy looking, however it plays like ess and therefore gets skipped most of the time. If you can get altair / ayumi looks with tanith / eclipse playability then you have a fantastic map
As for Bast, i think Mendasp should either change it back to how it was before anyone messed with it, or pass it over to someone else to fix.
As for Bast, i think Mendasp should either change it back to how it was before anyone messed with it, or pass it over to someone else to fix. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a mod I can't think of a reason to edit that post, even though it verges on trolling (and is pretty off-topic), but speaking generally as a forum member: Taking potshots at Mendasp after the incredible amount of work that he's put into Bast isn't recommended. Sitting back and throwing out comments like that will make members of the mapping forum pretty unhappy. Words to the wise.
On another note, having a claustrophobic 'where is that skulk going to come from' feeling with tight corridors and vents is always interesting, along with plenty of hiding places in hive rooms for skulks to pop out and bite your ankles.
lol, lol, lol
lol
lol
That's wishful thinking. So, let's see, how... exactly... I'm not able to fix bast? Maybe my mapping editor doesn't let me fix it, or... I keep "raping" the map on purpose. AND I OF COURSE IGNORE THE THREE OR FOUR PERSONS THAT ACTUALLY GIVE USEFUL FEEDBACK ON THE MAP.
Thanks for your oh-so-helpful comment, I'll put it next to the other SUPERINTELLIGENT forum users. In fact, next to Forlorn's comments...
When it first came out and i played it, i had endless amounts to say on the matter, but it has been a while since i have properly played it, due to most people i play with hating the map.
If you like, i can go run round it for a while and re-familarise myself with it, and then post you a proper explanation of what i think went wrong.
No offence indended to you Mendasp at all, you did brilliant work on Bast, and making any map is a acheivement, but i simply cant think where you got the "feedback" that led to such changes.
and
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79641&st=0' target='_blank'>here.</a>
Edit: There was something in this forum as well to do with bast feedback, but I can't get the search function to work for this particular forum. Oh well. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The "feedback" that allowed for those changes came from a lot of people. People were mad at being spawncamped in refinery, the revolving door, sadly was coated with a super thick layer of cockroaches, beetles and other horrible bugs, while marine start was nearly innaccessible to onos, and was hard to attack. Marine start is now great, and refinery will most likely be great, too.
And Mendasp, I wouldn't put him next to Forlorn...ever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With the new changes, that effect has been ruined, and its just like all the other half and hour to an hour max maps.
(However, i seem to be the minority in my love of 3-hour hauls, so i guess the majority "love" this new bast...)
Anyway, this otally wasnt the point of the post, but i got some good points out of it anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's tricky. Four RTs (ms/hives) are required. Then you generally want to have one marine friendly RT somewhere near marine start so that it's not too easy to cut off marines from all res. But then you want to have somewhat alien friendly RTs somewhere near each hive as well. Usually there are two of these, inbetween the hives. So you already have to drop one of those. I don't see it working. I'd think the minimum possible number of RTs in a serious playable map would be seven. And that would be a pretty odd looking map to make it at all fair. Interesting idea though, that it'd be fun to see someone try out.
1. Marine friendly since aliens have collective res
2. Wouldn't be generally good for pubbing since an alien team of >5 would get close to none res at all
3. Marines could easily lock down all the rts with turrets (i think...)
So it would be a very small map..person wise
edit: Spelling, cleaning up...tired...
I always work the style of map im going for. E.G I might create a corridor and some trims and see what it looks like with different textures. This helps decide on a style.
Work on layout next, make sure you draw it up roughly, so you have an idea of what to go for. Major focus on distance between hives, number of res nodes, and try to name some locations. E.G 'Power Grid' - giving a place a name can make it easier to decide what decorations to put in it later.
Once you've designed the layout, start incorporating your style into it, so the map begins to show some atmosphere.
Test your map, and get as many opinions as you can, especially from other experienced mappers, this will help you find out what should be fixed, what bugs are present etc.
Essentially, all choices such as res node placement, hive positions, choke points, etc is all up to you. These decisions will also affect the style of the map - a big map makes for a longer game, smaller ones are more fast-paced, many resnodes may create high action situations, since marines and aliens will each be more advanced sooner.
The most important thing to get practice with is layout, because that really decides how the map plays. Aesthetics is an important part, but not as essential.
> Weldables - barely used. I think thats because its very hard to balance. a route where you have to weld something is often impassible without welding, ergo without welding one route is missing. because we want our maps as uncomplicated as possible so players can quickly learn it, we cant give away any route. so you have to think carefully how to create weldables. I wouldnt exspect this to change in the future... maybe with ns: source <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
> Running Time - 30secs? compared to any other map my released map ns_source features routes with at LEAST 40 seconds of travel time from ms to any hive. and thats definetely TOO much! shorter routes make the game more interesting. I would prefer 20-30 seconds for an ns map.
> Water - I admit, Im have a water-fetishism. and I wondered how well this can work if its used right. water, in my eyes, is an "alien"-element anyways. and it is the "sign of disorder" no.1!!!
> Vents - vents are VERY important. but even in official maps there are some vents where I ask myself "why would a vent be THERE?" thats because vents barely get integrated in the map, they seem to be just cut out of a wall. I would recommend to create vents that cant be seen as vents on first view. so you have a stronger "discovery"-effect. and you will have to deal with suddenly appearing aliens from nowhere.
> Ninjability - you need a lot of alternative routes. and thats the tricky one: few routes > you cant get lost and you learn the map quickly ; a lot of routes > interesting gamelay. its up to anyone to find a balance in this case.
> Light - there should be no completely dark areas in a map. but areas with diffuse light are perfect for atmosphere. I prefer the method of "indirekt lightning". most of the time the player cant see the source of the light so he himself and the environment is not lighted directly. and to use different colors for lightning is allways a good idea.
> Layout - the obvious key element for marines is to destroy any hives and all alien players. and thats official. the center cc has been tested by some mappers but it seems to be too difficult to play. many marine players have difficulties to find back to their base with this kind of layout. its easier when the ms is on "the left bottom of the minimap".
> RT's - the number of rts depends on the maps size and the travel times/distances between possible rt locations. the rt that belongs to a hive should always be located somewhere in the hiveroom or not too far away. there should never be a massive obstavcle between the hive and the rt. double nodes had been discussed quite often. in a well crafted map they shurely would work fine but PERSONALY I dont see any map where it works. so double nodes are unnecessary in my eyes, they twist the gameplay too much. and a map fun to play doesnt NEED a double res, trust me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
> Levels - height differences is a important question. ns_eclipse for example is a pretty good example for wisely used height differences. the lower you are on the map the nearer you are to a hive. a map should definetely vary in heights but keep in mind that we are talking about ns here, so we are also talking about commander view high on the marine side. but areas with SHORT ladders, stairs, elevator shafts are never wrong and make the game more fun. noone likes plain maps. keep in mind that locations with ramps leading DOWN into them are an advantage to alienplayers.
> Commanders View - some thoughts went into the "why not make ares completely unvisible by the commander?". in my eyes this is not a good idea. but could be a good idea to block the commander view by architecture. that could be anything: pipes, cables, bars, doors that block commanderview when they get opened... architecture higher than any player may improve the atmosphere even for the commander "flying" over the scene.
dont make me responsible for what I just said <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With the new changes, that effect has been ruined, and its just like all the other half and hour to an hour max maps.
(However, i seem to be the minority in my love of 3-hour hauls, so i guess the majority "love" this new bast...)
Anyway, this otally wasnt the point of the post, but i got some good points out of it anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to understand I'm easily offended after the number of... uh... comments I've received (and that one of yours didn't sound very well, at all), I've spent a lot of time with this map, even though I could have been working on "my own". Anyways, I'll be more than happy to read and apply your feedback if I have time (I don't know when beta 6 is going to be finished, so...).
In fact, I always listen to feedback (when it's not full of insults, that is), the beta 5 version of the map... well, it has huge flaws, I know, but I didn't have much time to fix them. And, uh... the map is far from being loved by the majority of the people. The version the consties are testing is (I think) better and I'm now working on more changes (and if they suck I'll have time to revert them).
Now, looking at how the feedback threads turned out. I prefer getting feedback in PMs... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and I remember bast as point of discussion ever since. for example the siege range got reduced from beta 1.02 to 1.03 (I believe), so you werent able to siege the engine hive from the marinebase anymore <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
what makes a good map -> ns_bast -> remove one nozzle at the atmospheric processing (d-res). thats what I was thinking... only to have something said.