Wait, What?
Rapier7
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What's this about?</div> <b>What console commands does the team view as exploits?
NS was meant to be played without the console. Any command or behavior that requires the console or a custom .cfg to operate is considered an exploit and won't be allowed in official competitive play, whenever enforceable. </b>
It's in the UWE FAQ, Alkiller mentioned it in another thread, but it's unrelated to said thread.
Is this true?
NS was meant to be played without the console. Any command or behavior that requires the console or a custom .cfg to operate is considered an exploit and won't be allowed in official competitive play, whenever enforceable. </b>
It's in the UWE FAQ, Alkiller mentioned it in another thread, but it's unrelated to said thread.
Is this true?
Comments
The overall goal interface-wise is to make the combination of the offline menus and in-game user interface friendly and thorough enough that most console commands you would want to use would be redundant. For examples, the popup menu lets you do everything from communicate to drop your weapon, and the keyboard configuration menu now gives you the option to bind keys to "build <chamber type>" and "evolve <upgrade>."
Another part of that statement refers to how we're continually trying to improve gameplay to make some commands irrelevant. For example, "kill" in the console is only useful for unsticking purposes and strategic decisions to relocate an individual at a loss of the equipment he or she is using. A system where stuck problems don't happen (map-specific bugs are being fixed all the time) and choosing to use kill in console isn't strategically viable (sometimes map-specific, sometimes balance related) is preferable.
CAL allows custom .cfg files? Saying their league.cfg does not need to be executed?
The overall goal interface-wise is to make the combination of the offline menus and in-game user interface friendly and thorough enough that most console commands you would want to use would be redundant. For examples, the popup menu lets you do everything from communicate to drop your weapon, and the keyboard configuration menu now gives you the option to bind keys to "build <chamber type>" and "evolve <upgrade>."
Another part of that statement refers to how we're continually trying to improve gameplay to make some commands irrelevant. For example, "kill" in the console is only useful for unsticking purposes and strategic decisions to relocate an individual at a loss of the equipment he or she is using. A system where stuck problems don't happen (map-specific bugs are being fixed all the time) and choosing to use kill in console isn't strategically viable (sometimes map-specific, sometimes balance related) is preferable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice evasion.
You still haven't said anything about my main point (which I admit, I did not explicitly say, though it was implied), which was scripting. Sure, I really don't care about the stuff you just said, but is this statement regarding the stance of console and configs (scripting) of the NS Dev team true?
I dont quite understand what it is your saying. But from my understanding if you're asking if the cal.cfg file needs to be excecuted then yes, it does. However, I was refering to the client, not the server, in my above post. "client" (eg: userconfig.cfg, config.cfg, etc...)
The overall goal interface-wise is to make the combination of the offline menus and in-game user interface friendly and thorough enough that most console commands you would want to use would be redundant. For examples, the popup menu lets you do everything from communicate to drop your weapon, and the keyboard configuration menu now gives you the option to bind keys to "build <chamber type>" and "evolve <upgrade>."
Another part of that statement refers to how we're continually trying to improve gameplay to make some commands irrelevant. For example, "kill" in the console is only useful for unsticking purposes and strategic decisions to relocate an individual at a loss of the equipment he or she is using. A system where stuck problems don't happen (map-specific bugs are being fixed all the time) and choosing to use kill in console isn't strategically viable (sometimes map-specific, sometimes balance related) is preferable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice evasion.
You still haven't said anything about my main point (which I admit, I did not explicitly say, though it was implied), which was scripting. Sure, I really don't care about the stuff you just said, but is this statement regarding the stance of console and configs (scripting) of the NS Dev team true? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The two points in my above post were paraphrased -- as directly as my memory allows -- from the last time I remember talking about that specific part of the FAQ on one of the team's internal forums. This was some time ago.
Now that the intended topic of the thread has become more clear, <span style='color:orange'>*phased*</span> from General to Scripting Discussion.
I dont quite understand what it is your saying. But from my understanding if you're asking if the cal.cfg file needs to be excecuted then yes, it does. However, I was refering to the client, not the server, in my above post. "client" (eg: userconfig.cfg, config.cfg, etc...) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My apologies, I was working on my server as I typed that, so was in my server op mode ... lol
Can you take that off the FAQ, or at least update it with what you've currently said?
1) Convenience Scripting
2) Skill Scripting
It's #2 that so many people have quarrels about.
1) Convenience Scripting:
This includes the common things that make otherwise finiky tasks convenient. An example from my script collection would be such things as:
- a volume script, that alternates in-game volume between two levelsat the push of a button
- a config file that sets up class-specific binds (this way you can save critical keys for use with specific classes)
- mute script to mute ingame volume
- voice loopback script to test your mic volume
etc
2) Skill Scripting
This includes scripts that remove or greatly reduce the requirement of skill to perform the related action, such as:
- pistol script (it takes skill to click your mouse button fast and consistent and aim, pistol script doesn't)
- pancake script (it takes skill to avoid getting shot as a lerk, scripted pancaking doesn't)
- wiggle script (it takes skill to pound your strafe keys in quick succesion, scripted wiggling doesn't)
- blink/swipe and leap/bite script (it takes skill to switch between weapons quickly, but not with this script)
Thus, I doubt the aforementioned pop-up menus, chamber dropping binds are in question. It's the pistol scripting and pancaking etc. that are the real issue.
p.s. personally I dislike "skill scripts", infact I loathe them. However I do use some of them... why? Because it is evident that, especially in the competitive scene, those who don't, are left behind.
"What are you trying to tell me? That I can use scripts?"
"No, NSPlayer. I'm trying to tell you that when we've had our way with the Engine, you won't have to"
[/MatrixMovieRipoff]
and everyone would be using the same key configuration, mouse sensitivity, and monitor gamma too..
and everyone would be using the same key configuration, mouse sensitivity, and monitor gamma too.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a bit of an exaggeration on your part, because neither side of the scripting debate argues over your right to use the offline menus to change control buttons and mouse sensitivity. As for gamma, that's also in the menus; whether or not a person is using it to fix a computer-specific problem or give themself some sort of advantage is an issue of player honor and honesty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think we need to recognize the two distinct aspects of scripting:
1) Convenience Scripting
2) Skill Scripting
It's #2 that so many people have quarrels about.
1) Convenience Scripting:
This includes the common things that make otherwise finiky tasks convenient. An example from my script collection would be such things as:
- a volume script, that alternates in-game volume between two levelsat the push of a button
- a config file that sets up class-specific binds (this way you can save critical keys for use with specific classes)
- mute script to mute ingame volume
- voice loopback script to test your mic volume
etc
2) Skill Scripting
This includes scripts that remove or greatly reduce the requirement of skill to perform the related action, such as:
- pistol script (it takes skill to click your mouse button fast and consistent and aim, pistol script doesn't)
- pancake script (it takes skill to avoid getting shot as a lerk, scripted pancaking doesn't)
- wiggle script (it takes skill to pound your strafe keys in quick succesion, scripted wiggling doesn't)
- blink/swipe and leap/bite script (it takes skill to switch between weapons quickly, but not with this script)
Thus, I doubt the aforementioned pop-up menus, chamber dropping binds are in question. It's the pistol scripting and pancaking etc. that are the real issue.
p.s. personally I dislike "skill scripts", infact I loathe them. However I do use some of them... why? Because it is evident that, especially in the competitive scene, those who don't, are left behind.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can be used to gain an unfair advantage, just like gamma, models and mouse sens. But, if used correctly, they are for customization/fixing hardware problems. I don't think the entire scripting community should be punished just because some people use scripts maliciously. I do agree that we need to stop them, but not at the expense of players who are following the rules.
And as for "making so people won't have to script." Frankly, bull. People will always want to, in some cases have to (hardware problems, disabilities) script. You can make all the menus you want, but people will always bind stuff to keys and make multiple binds. It's more convenient and practical for those who know how. And it isn't an unfair advantage because all commands it uses are perfectly legal and anyone can learn to script. If they say they can't they're probably just too lazy to. Even if they are, other scripters, myself included, are often happy to help.
You can't say "with the exception of wiggle and pistol scripts" That *IS* the basic two fundamental scripts of skill scripting, and you cannot merely brush them aside. Just about EVERY competitive NS player uses a skill script of some sort, most likely being a pistol script (including myself).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just let people who want to script script, and those who don't want to, not use them. I don't care what config or what hardware or what scripts people play the game with. I'd say it's up to every individual to choose how he wants to play, and preferably without being forced by arbitrary rules. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for letting people play the way they want to, you can't make a consistent arguement around that statement, because then where do you draw the line? Let them script, okay, then should we let them script an exploit, okay, then should we let them eventually hack? etc. Where do you draw the line?
FactoryFresh----------------binds---------------scripts------------exploits----------hacks
where "binds" is the neutral zone.
now, do you see anywhere that it says that scripts are directly related to hacks? no.
Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you have a bullet in it, and just because you have a bullet in it, doesn't mean you're going to shoot someone.
Just because you have a script doesn't mean you use it to exploit, and just because you have an exploit, doesn't mean you use it to hack.
but, it would be foolish to deny that each previous statement facilitates the latter.
I love scripting threads.
Milo I like the bs0 comment in your sig.
I score better on mp_bs1 servers than I do on lets say #EGN or Crayon's or WnF's co servers. I'll let you infer why.
In CPMA the rule was simple, if you can do it, do it. In NS the rule has been clearly laid down.
Don't do it, you don't need it and thats a simple rule people have failed to follow.
I use a few binds, OCs are binded to K, DCs to L, MCs to M and SC to N on my keyboard.
T is now my in game menu, and q is switch to next weapon and Mouse 2 is switch to pervious weapon, so in combat I don't have to move my fingers off the movement keys when it gets tight quarters.
I can empty my pistol switch to LMG and then switch to knife. And I hear people talking about using a script for all that when I use a simple mouse button :s
But seriously if the arguements so far for "skill scripts" are "Stop comparing scripts to hacks." or "You're an idiot." I'll stay with the people who are intelligent.
FactoryFresh----------------binds---------------scripts------------exploits----------hacks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to your amazing chart right here it apears that scripting would be the neutral zone, no?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------__--------
There are very few competetive players that I know use a pistol script, and it doesnt help the ones that do much. And since you use one you should know that it doesnt work correctly 50 percent of the time.
The "wiggle walk" can just as easly be done without a script. But because the script does it so fast it will be a LITTLE faster but not much. If I wanted to I could bind mousewheel up to +moveleft and mousewheel down to +moveright and go just as fast as the script can without locking up(It doesnt take skill to spin a wheel, and the script will lock your controls up when you use it.).
I dont really see how you think these give people "skill", they can help newer players do better but eventually they all just limit the player once they start to get good(with the exception of the wiggle walk I guess, but I find that script close to useless anyways).
-Who cares if this is off topic.-
only scripts that i see as harmful are produced using _special which is removed anyway b6.
after this the closest thing to harmful is a simple pistol script.
nobody is stopping anybody from scripting, anybody can script its not like some players can and some players cant.
its all about <b>personal preference</b>
Pistol: I have it, I don't use it because it's too unweildly. And, If you don't get the fps and waits right, you can be stuck firing an empty clip.
For both of those, the two main "skill" scripts, it is much better to use the non-scripted version. They both lock up your controls while using them, and they are inflexible.
The only scripts that are somewhat comparable to hacks are those that use _special, because it gives you the full benefits of a normal script without the balancing drawback of having your controls locked up. You can stop complaining about these scripts now because _special is totally blocked in b6.
Why don't you anti-scripters stay out of the scripting forum or, better yet, concentrate on something productive, like actual hacking and getting VAC running on NS.
FactoryFresh----------------binds---------------scripts------------exploits----------hacks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to your amazing chart right here it apears that scripting would be the neutral zone, no?
There are very few competetive players that I know use a pistol script, and it doesnt help the ones that do much. And since you use one you should know that it doesnt work correctly 50 percent of the time.
The "wiggle walk" can just as easly be done without a script. But because the script does it so fast it will be a LITTLE faster but not much. If I wanted to I could bind mousewheel up to +moveleft and mousewheel down to +moveright and go just as fast as the script can without locking up(It doesnt take skill to spin a wheel, and the script will lock your controls up when you use it.).
I dont really see how you think these give people "skill", they can help newer players do better but eventually they all just limit the player once they start to get good(with the exception of the wiggle walk I guess, but I find that script close to useless anyways).
-Who cares if this is off topic.- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually read my post, you'd see that I declared "binds" as the neutral zone.
-1----------0----------1----------2
much like 0 here is the neutral.
As for competitive players, you have been gravely mistaken. I'd say 85% of the clans we've scrimmed have at least 1-3 or all members that pistol script. And we've scrimmed both Delta and Omega NS clans.
As for wiggle walking, I've created my own wiggle script that is the most effective if not, as effective, wiggle script out there and I can assure you that, no one, even a mousewheel strafer, can wiggle as fast as my wiggle script. It makes a marine with a knife run at 304 units/sec, a skulk runs at 290. So I can virtually outrun a skulk with my knife out.
As for skill bonuses, I can personally tell you that, as a result of my pistol script I can kill as many as 3 more skulks and can increase my chances of killing a running fade by 50%. As for my wiggle script, perhaps a quote says it best: "WTH HOW'd he get there so fast!! I wasn't expecting him there!!", and it has other various perks such as being able to outrun an onos who is trying to devour you.
Although I do agree with you that most scripts (pancake, blink, leap, etc) just limit a good player, it is important to realize that certain scripts (such as pistol and wiggle) make a good player near perfect.