<!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Feb 24 2005, 02:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Feb 24 2005, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With that in mind, theistic evolution contains many damaging elements. The chiefest of these is that it outright rejects a litteral interpretation of the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seeing as the vast majority of Christians are not literalists, it's kinda hard to see how this woul dbe "damaging" to anything other than your own view of things Pepe, which happens to be the minority view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The vast majority of Christians are in it for the fire insurance. Just because they are a majority doesn't mean their interpretation is correct - especially when God says otherwise.
The Bible makes many claims about itself - it claims to be infailable, everlasting, God's word, Law - Even if everyone in the world denied these claims it wouldn't make them any less true.
The act of denying portions of the Bible (OT for an example) is an afront to God. By doing so you are in effect telling God that your wisdom in your finite brain is much greater than God's wisdom. The mentality of "I don't understand, therefore it can't have happened" puts humans ahead of God - a place we were never meant to be.
Now, if you want to ask me what I think of the state of Christianity in this nation / world wide - I say "not good". For all those "christians" who don't read their Bible, nor care what God has to say to them - what hope do you have? is the prayer "forgive all my sins this day and forever, I'm never going to talk to you agian unless I'm in trouble" - is that going to save you?
Might doesn't make right, neither does majority make right. God makes right, and if God gave us the whole Bible, and says "this is what is right" - the by gosh, who am I to say different?
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Feb 24 2005, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Feb 24 2005, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I haven't read this thread yet. (I'm in a hurry and pretty tired) But I read the first post. I just thought I'd like to toss this in to the field:
What if God, if he exists, created humans, which were originally primates, and they evolved in to modern humans from there? Is it so unreasonable to think that maybe God actually looks like a monkey? People are waaaay too obsessed with looks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He wouldn't neccessarily have to look like the bottom of the chain. Seeing as how He's omniscient, He may look like what we one day become.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 24 2005, 09:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 24 2005, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Feb 24 2005, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Feb 24 2005, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I haven't read this thread yet. (I'm in a hurry and pretty tired) But I read the first post. I just thought I'd like to toss this in to the field:
What if God, if he exists, created humans, which were originally primates, and they evolved in to modern humans from there? Is it so unreasonable to think that maybe God actually looks like a monkey? People are waaaay too obsessed with looks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He wouldn't neccessarily have to look like the bottom of the chain. Seeing as how He's omniscient, He may look like what we one day become. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe he's a collection of various proteomes and amino acids. Or maybe he's blue-green algae...or a trilobite...those were cool.
I would assume, based on Christianity, he would look like his son. I don't think it really matters; it could just be refering to the fact that we'd have conscious thought and the rest of the species don't or some other weird thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The vast majority of Christians are in it for the fire insurance. Just because they are a majority doesn't mean their interpretation is correct - especially when God says otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, on the contrary, they have sincere belief, but they don't think a literal Bible makes much sense. I should note that Catholicism is the largest and most succesful Christian sect, and it is not literalist. In fact, hard and fast literalism is pretty much a 20th century development of fundamentalism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Bible makes many claims about itself - it claims to be infailable, everlasting, God's word, Law - Even if everyone in the world denied these claims it wouldn't make them any less true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gene Ray of timecube.com claims he's infaliable too. So what?
You bigger problem, however, is that it's impossible for the Bible to make claims about itself. Not one of the words in the Bible was written by anyone who had any inkling that there even would BE a Bible. They might referenec their own words as infaliable missives from God (just like the Son of Sam!) or that Scripture is, but they can't refer to the Bible as a whole because it didn't exist and wasn't concieved of when any of the books of the Bible were written.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The act of denying portions of the Bible (OT for an example) is an afront to God. By doing so you are in effect telling God that your wisdom in your finite brain is much greater than God's wisdom.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's only if you preassume that the Bible is litteral and infaliable. Which is known as begging the question. You can't simply assume something is true, and then claim to have an argument that proves it when really you're just smuggling in the basic assumption as a premise and then pretending to "discover" it by argument.
In fact, the RCC professes many anti-biblical things - for instance, Immaculate conception, prayer to the saints, prayer to Mary (for intercession), trans-substantiation, infalibilty of papal decree, purgatory, indulgences (purchasing your way to heaven).
These are a few of the many things that humans have put in the way of God - they are "other paths" - just RCC sanctioned paths. All these things are extra-biblical, and are the reasons behind the reformation (yes, I acknowledge there were political reasons as well, but the theological are much more noteworthy.)
I suggest that there are very few RCC Christians - being a christian involves following Christ - and most RCC follow Catholicism, in which the person of Christ is reduced in a sea of ritual, meaningless confessions, and a sub-standard understanding of the Bible (which they claim to follow).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suggest that there are very few RCC Christians - being a christian involves following Christ - and most RCC follow Catholicism, in which the person of Christ is reduced in a sea of ritual, meaningless confessions, and a sub-standard understanding of the Bible (which they claim to follow). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now, if you remember what I've said in previous religious threads, you'll know that I'm definitely not a literalist. Also, I don't care much for these "seas of rituals" you speak of; I never fail to join in the worship of Easter, Christmas, and Lent, but that's pretty much it. I mean, it's not like I openly try to avoid doing things like putting the ash on my forehead on Ash Wednesday, I just don't make that great of an effort to remember.
Meaningless confession....that's more of a problem with the person than the faith, wouldn't you say? If a person doesn't spill his or her sins to the priest, that's not really a mark against Catholicism more than a mark against that person.
Substandard understanding of the Bible.....there are literalist Catholics and there are nonliteralist Catholics. Once again, if someone doesn't understand the Bible it's not his religion's fault. Maybe he's lazy. Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe (and this is what I feel) you <u>don't need to read the Bible to be a good Christian</u>. Reading the Bible obviously doesn't give any high insights into God's plan, or else there would be no such profession as "theologian". People interpret the Bible; the meaning is not clear. So instead of slog through that book, that may or may not be the word of God or just the writings of men, I will listen to the important passages that my pastor decides are relevant.
Also, and this is important, the most important part of being a Christian, according to Jesus, has nothing to do with reading or understanding the Bible. Community service, helping people, being a decent human being, those are the things you need, not reading a book every day. Which would Jesus prefer: that you listen to him everyday or that you act like him everyday? Somehow I think He would like us all to talk a little less and do a little more.
One other thing, about prayer to Mary and the Saints: praying to a saint != worshipping another God. There's nothing in the Bible that says you can't pray to someone; Mary, a saint, even your dead grandfather. As long as you recognize that the person you are praying to is not God, you're not breaking any Biblical rules.
Oh, and I've never heard of indulgences, probably because no real Catholic actually believes in such a thing, or is taught such a thing. *Gasp* we differ in belief from the Pope/Rome/whoever came up with indulgence. That doesn't mean that we aren't still Catholics, just Catholics that don't believe in buying one's way to heaven.
Thanks for the comments Sky <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I hope I wasn't too offensive, but you kind of proved my point.
Do you know why people confess to a priest? Do you know the theological reasoning behind that? Same thing with Mary - why do people pray to her? What can she do for anyone?
The purpose for those things is because the papacy (those in charge of the RCC) decided that people (like you and me) shouldn't be allowed to talk directly to God. According to RCC doctrine, you can not recieve forgivness for your sins unless you confess - directly to a priest.
The Bible directly contradicts that - Jesus died for our sins - not the priest. Our only means for forgivenss is through Jesus - the ultimate High Priest. Going through a human priest is robbing Jesus of his position, and providing an alternate route for forgivness. After all, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life".
As for praying to Mary / Saints - you shall have no other Gods before me, you shall not bow down to them, or worship them. Why pray to them? Can they forgive sin? or interceed for us? - What is the point with doing something that looks like/borders on idolatry if they can't help save souls one iota?
As for reading the Bible - sure, I can understand an argument that says you don't need to read it to "be a good Christian". I argue that it is coming from a faulty premise though. You look to your religion / faith in your religion and Gods good graces for salvation. It is based on the thought that you are a "good person" and so deserve a spot in heaven (or at least not one in hell). Therefore, understanding of the Bible is less important than "being good" - why waste time reading it when someone else can interpret it for you.
I disagree. No one is "good enough" for God - not me, not you... heck, not even the virgin mary herself! Her only hope was complete trust in her son. The same thing applies today - but how can you completely trust in him when you don't understand what he is doing? How can you be good when your concept of what good is is "community service"?
No, I'm not slamming community service or your desire to do that - good for you. However, I fail to see (Biblically) where that is going to earn you brownie points in Heaven?
One last thing - how do you expect to "act like Jesus every day" if you don't read how he acted - understand what he did? If your priest tells you that being decent is enough, I'm afraid he isn't telling you what the Bible says.
Please don't be offended either - that isn't my point, and I would feel bad if I did offend you. I just want you to question - perhaps enough so you do pick up a Bible and read it. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for praying to Mary / Saints - you shall have no other Gods before me, you shall not bow down to them, or worship them. Why pray to them? Can they forgive sin? or interceed for us? - What is the point with doing something that looks like/borders on idolatry if they can't help save souls one iota?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since I'm not Catholic, I'll let Sky address the issue, but I remember finding an explanation from a Christdot discussion which seems pretty valid:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Praying isn't necessarily an act between a religious adherent and a deity, but can be any request between a petitioner and the one being petitioned. In fact, in the King James Bible, pray is used frequently in requests between two people. It's ironic that many Protestants who are KJV only have such a problem when we say we pray to Saints. They should understand the meaning of the word.
We don't worship Saints or believe they have mystical powers, which is what many Protestants accuse us of. However, praying (requesting) through Saints is a tradition that goes back at least to very early Christianity. There are prayers to Saints inscribed in the catacombs from the first few centuries A.D.
Praying through Saints is not required for being a Catholic and if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. It doesn't make you any less a Catholic. We are very glad to have you as part of our church.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://christdot.gospelcom.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4641&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0' target='_blank'>The discussion goes a lot more in depth.</a>
Also, does anyone have a link to a post Legionnaired made a while back which lists about five different ways to reading the Bible? For example, there's verses which we take in literally, there's verses which we should treat as symbolically, there's verses we should read under the historical context of the given time, etc. I still consider the Bible valid, even OT, but I honestly believe the literal interpretation of certain passages is detrimental.
Question: The Bible is considered infalliable, and God gave instructions that no one is to add or subtract from his word. Why then, did Protestants take the initiative to <a href='http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203fea3.asp' target='_blank'>subtract from the Old Testament</a>. Furthermore, this appears not to have been the case for the first issues of the KJV Bibles:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you be surprised to learn that the 1611 version of the King James Bible (a Protestant Bible) contained all the books of the Septuagint, even those seven later deleted from Protestant Bibles? In fact, there was an ordinance at that time that anyone who printed the King James Bible without those seven books should be imprisoned for a year (E. Goodspeed, The Story of the Apocrypha, University of Chicago Press, 136).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I'm spewing out a lot of cesspool here right now; I'm going through the <a href='http://www.ritchies.net/churchhi.htm' target='_blank'>church history</a> link I posted earlier (written with a Protestant perspective) to see if I can answer some of my own questions...
And with that, you've basically taken yourself out of the range of reasonable argument and into the usual anti-Catholic bigotry.
The fact is, Catholicism has some different beliefs than you. But you can only claim their beliefs are wrong by assuming that YOUR beliefs are true. Which gets us absolutely nowhere. Catholics feel the same about you. So what? Neither of you have exclusive claim to the term "Christian."
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 24 2005, 07:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 24 2005, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The purpose for those things is because the papacy (those in charge of the RCC) decided that people (like you and me) shouldn't be allowed to talk directly to God. According to RCC doctrine, you can not recieve forgivness for your sins unless you confess - directly to a priest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh really? I did not know that. Probably because I don't give a damn; leader of the church or not, the Pope isn't telling me if I can or can't pray to God. And yes, it's quite alright for a Catholic to disagree with the Pope and still be a Catholic. It'd be the same if I disagreed with my priest, or my friend; no two people will ever share the exact same beliefs, so a little variation doesn't exclude me from the catholic church.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for praying to Mary / Saints - you shall have no other Gods before me, you shall not bow down to them, or worship them. Why pray to them? Can they forgive sin? or interceed for us? - What is the point with doing something that looks like/borders on idolatry if they can't help save souls one iota?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now, I'm sure everyone who prays to saints or dead relatives has there own reasons. I personally believe in guardian angels. I mean, I do a lot of things that I probably shouldn't have lived through (not drugs or anything, I mean stupid things like falling off of roofs and such). And to be honest, I'm just not that frickin lucky. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> And, even though I know God <i>could</i> have saved me on these occasions, it just seems more....comforting, I suppose, that an angel and/or spirit of a dead relative is looking out for me personally. Prayers for forgiveness go to God, because only He can forgive. Prayers for intelligence, luck, guidance: I could ask God, but somehow it makes sense that there are others up there in Heaven that could do the same job, so to speak. It's not like I'm asking my grandpa to put in a good word to God to save my soul, I'm just looking for a little comfort, that's all. You look to your parents for comfort when you're in pain, even if they can't do anything directly to help heal you, just because they're your parents and they are there for you. Well, same thing with prayers to spirits other than God.
I have to go to school like now, so just one more part: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I'm not slamming community service or your desire to do that - good for you. However, I fail to see (Biblically) where that is going to earn you brownie points in Heaven?
One last thing - how do you expect to "act like Jesus every day" if you don't read how he acted - understand what he did? If your priest tells you that being decent is enough, I'm afraid he isn't telling you what the Bible says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't say I haven't read the Bible, just that I haven't read it that thoroughly. And the one thing that I remember standing out the most from reading the New Testament was Jesus saying that the most important two principles to live by were "Honor thy father and mother" and "Love thy neighbor as yourself". The first is easy enough, the second I do through community service. That's why I think that service is the most important thing a Christian can do in his life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 25 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 25 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I'm not slamming community service or your desire to do that - good for you. However, I fail to see (Biblically) where that is going to earn you brownie points in Heaven?
One last thing - how do you expect to "act like Jesus every day" if you don't read how he acted - understand what he did? If your priest tells you that being decent is enough, I'm afraid he isn't telling you what the Bible says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't say I haven't read the Bible, just that I haven't read it that thoroughly. And the one thing that I remember standing out the most from reading the New Testament was Jesus saying that the most important two principles to live by were "Honor thy father and mother" and "Love thy neighbor as yourself". The first is easy enough, the second I do through community service. That's why I think that service is the most important thing a Christian can do in his life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for awesomeness. Sky roxxors meh boxors.
And with that, you've basically taken yourself out of the range of reasonable argument and into the usual anti-Catholic bigotry.
The fact is, Catholicism has some different beliefs than you. But you can only claim their beliefs are wrong by assuming that YOUR beliefs are true. Which gets us absolutely nowhere. Catholics feel the same about you. So what? Neither of you have exclusive claim to the term "Christian."
I do not assume my beliefs are true. I do assume the Bible is true. Since both Catholics and I claim "christian" - our primary goal is by default to follow Christ. All the info we know about christ comes from the Bible - therefore both Catholics and I should measure our belief structure by its (the bibles) contents.
All I am doing is trying to point out inconsistencies with RCC doctrine and the Bible. I am not trying to be a bigot, I am just holding the belief structure up to a standard which they claim to hold - the Bible.
@sky - unfortunatly in "roxoring my boxors" you misquoted. Jesus said the 2 things are: 1. Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strenght. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Those two commands are a shrunk down version of the 10 commandments (the first 3 deal with how to love God, the last 7 deal with how to love your neighbor)
Now, lets take the topic of prayer to Mary - as the ultimate in "praying to someone not God" topic. When we pray to God, we assume things about God - we assume that he hears us, that he can comprehend more than one prayer at a time, that he cares, that he is able to do something about our prayers. These things can be gleaned from the Bible - as they are commandments. Jesus himself taught us how to pray (inser Lord's prayer).
Now apply that to Mary. Can she hear us? she isn't infinite like God, so how can she? Can she do something about our requests? Can she command angles to help us? Can she comprehend more than one persons prayer at a time? In other words - has she been granted godlike powers - and if so, where is the Biblical proof for that? People specifically pray to her for "intercession" - either for sin, or for good will (let me survive my next fall of the roof type stuff). Where is the Biblical backing for her intercessory abilities?
@Dessidious Confuzor here is a decent link as to why Protestants reject the extra books of the Bible (commonly called the apocrypha). It is a good read, and I recommend the clicky.
To sum up: They were never recognized as Jewish Scripture Contains false doctrine
As for the implication that the Bible originally contained the apocrypha, and then those books were subtracted from it - no. The Bible orignally contained the OT (recognized by Jews as scripture) and then the smaller collection of letters that Paul (and others) wrote - the NT. The apocrypha were slid in as "intertestamental" books - but never were they claimed to be divinly inspired - interesting to read, but not "words of God".
As a result, during various councils (Council at Nicea for one) the cannon of the Bible was set to be 72 books - with the understanding that God, through the Holy Spirit was leading the council to rightly choose which books to cannonize. God would be using the same priniciple of inspiration during this choosing process as he used during the creation of the books, and in their preservation over time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 25 2005, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 25 2005, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @sky - unfortunatly in "roxoring my boxors" you misquoted. Jesus said the 2 things are: 1. Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strenght. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At least I didn't screw up the one that I was using to prove my point about community work, so if you just ignore half of my attempt at quoting scripture, my point stands. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now apply that to Mary. Can she hear us? she isn't infinite like God, so how can she? Can she do something about our requests? Can she command angles to help us? Can she comprehend more than one persons prayer at a time? In other words - has she been granted godlike powers - and if so, where is the Biblical proof for that? People specifically pray to her for "intercession" - either for sin, or for good will (let me survive my next fall of the roof type stuff). Where is the Biblical backing for her intercessory abilities?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, she's a spirit. In heaven. Not limited by corporeal standards. Where does it say in the Bible that she <i>can't</i> intervene on my behalf? Lack of proof != lack of truth. Heck, you should know this very well; you're a creationist. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oooh, I like that. Lack of proof != lack of truth. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Your point was that doing community service is better than reading the Bible. My point is that Honoring God is better than community service - how can you honor God if you don't know what he wants? - Read the Bible.
In other words, the actions flow from a right understanding of Christ. Without a proper foundation, all our good works are as filthy rags - and none of them count for anything before God.
Now to Mary:
In case you didn't know (just and FYI off track) Jesus did have other siblings. Mary's virginity only lasted until Jesus was born - then Joseph resumed his husbandly duties <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
As for other "proof" that she is an ordinary woman - not to be prayed to - all we have to do is look to Jesus's words and how he references her.
Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
So, I will give you credit - No, I can't prove that she doesn't have godlike powers, as I am not dead and sitting next to her to find out for myself.
However, I can tell you that God is a jealous God - he probably wouldn't want people praying to anyone but him (including Mary). I can tell you that while Mary was alive, she did not receive any raised status - the focus has always been on Jesus. I can point the doctrine concerning Mary all the way back to its roots - a way to control the masses and deny them access to Jesus. I can point to other means the RCC has used to control people (confession to a priest, indulgences, papal authority - direct from Peter to present day, Keys of the Kingdom) all these have been used to distract RCC members from Jesus and drown them in a sea of ritual. Yeah, all this is circumstantial evidence, and yeah, people will still pray to Mary. The way I see it, at best, it is a fruitless waste of time (endorsed by the Pope) - At worst, everyone who does is bowing to an idol.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 25 2005, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 25 2005, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @Dessidious Confuzor here is a decent link as to why Protestants reject the extra books of the Bible (commonly called the apocrypha). It is a good read, and I recommend the clicky.
To sum up: They were never recognized as Jewish Scripture Contains false doctrine
As for the implication that the Bible originally contained the apocrypha, and then those books were subtracted from it - no. The Bible orignally contained the OT (recognized by Jews as scripture) and then the smaller collection of letters that Paul (and others) wrote - the NT. The apocrypha were slid in as "intertestamental" books - but never were they claimed to be divinly inspired - interesting to read, but not "words of God".
As a result, during various councils (Council at Nicea for one) the cannon of the Bible was set to be 72 books - with the understanding that God, through the Holy Spirit was leading the council to rightly choose which books to cannonize. God would be using the same priniciple of inspiration during this choosing process as he used during the creation of the books, and in their preservation over time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As valid as the general points of the argument are, I like how blatantly Protestantcentric the site is. Kudos to them for represent the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox as Spy vs Spy.
I also did a quick translation of the the supposed "offensive materials" they had had based on Ecclesiasticus in conjunction with the <a href='http://www.latinvulgate.com/' target='_blank'>Latin Vulgate</a>.
<b>Ecclesiasticus 25:19</b> <i>Site says: Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity. Vulgate says: And any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman:</i>
(the next set of verses end off with a colon, until it reaches verse 23, which is:
<i>And there is no anger above the anger of a woman. It will be more agreeable to abide with a lion and a dragon, than to dwell with a wicked woman.</i>
Hmm... parallels the "better to sleep on a roof than in bed with a quarreling wife" Bible verse.
<b>Ecclesiasticus 25:24</b> <i>Site says: From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die. Vulgate says: The wickedness of a woman changeth her face: and she darkeneth her countenance as a bear: and sheweth it like sackcloth. In the midst of her neighbours,</i> [edit]Actually, that passage they quote is in, but they used shoddy quotation. The verse they refer to is verse 33. Taking the literal account of the Adam and Eve however, I can't technically fault this verse, one of the many reasons why I don't accept the literal translation of Genesis[/edit]
And probably the worst one...
<b>Ecclesiasticus 22:3</b> <i>Site says: It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss. Vulgate says: A son ill taught is the confusion of the father: and a <b>foolish</b> daughter shall be to his loss.</i>
Makes me wonder what else they tried to slip in to support their Eastern Orthodox/Catholic bashing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not assume my beliefs are true. I do assume the Bible is true. Since both Catholics and I claim "christian" - our primary goal is by default to follow Christ. All the info we know about christ comes from the Bible - therefore both Catholics and I should measure our belief structure by its (the bibles) contents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you don't come to it with the same assumptions. You come to with the ASSUMPTION that it must be read litterally and is litterally infaliable. Not everyone does that, and indeed most Christians don't. You can say "incorrect" all you want: the fact that you bring your own assumptions in is plain as day to anyone who then goes and read your actual arguments, regardless of your denials.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now apply that to Mary. Can she hear us? she isn't infinite like God, so how can she? Can she do something about our requests? Can she command angles to help us? Can she comprehend more than one persons prayer at a time? In other words - has she been granted godlike powers - and if so, where is the Biblical proof for that? People specifically pray to her for "intercession" - either for sin, or for good will (let me survive my next fall of the roof type stuff). Where is the Biblical backing for her intercessory abilities?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Catholics don't hold the Bible to be the sole source of authority. They also have the traditions and the magisteruim. Nothing in the Bible says that it is to be taken as the sole authority on things, and indeed even if it did that would only beg the question. So again, you are just smuggling your own religious beliefs in, assuming them to be true, and then declaring that others are wrong because they don't believe what you think they should. That's just kinda silly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 25 2005, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 25 2005, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your point was that doing community service is better than reading the Bible. My point is that Honoring God is better than community service - how can you honor God if you don't know what he wants? - Read the Bible.
In other words, the actions flow from a right understanding of Christ. Without a proper foundation, all our good works are as filthy rags - and none of them count for anything before God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You claim to understand God, yet people around the world devote their lives towards interpreting and understanding the Bible. Face it: reading the Bible doesn't imbue you with ultimate knowledge of God's plan and will. However, one thing I do know is that God will not judge too harshly anyone who at least tries to live his life for God. Not a single human being will ever get it down perfectly, and I contend that reading the Bible won't get you nearly as close to the "right" path as you think it will. When you read the Bible, you might take out of it a completely wrong idea, something God never intended. However, community service can never be bad, so therefore it [u]is[/i] better than reading the Bible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for other "proof" that she is an ordinary woman - not to be prayed to - all we have to do is look to Jesus's words and how he references her. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ordinary or not, you can still pray to her. I pray to my grandpa for guidance all the time; he's only been dead 4 years as of Valentine's Day.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, all this is circumstantial evidence, and yeah, people will still pray to Mary. The way I see it, at best, it is a fruitless waste of time (endorsed by the Pope) - At worst, everyone who does is bowing to an idol. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, here's another thing Catholics do (and maybe other Christians, for all I know): the offering of peace at mass. Now, I doubt that Jesus told people that they could bless each other with a "peace be with you"; I mean, that was kinda his job. But Catholics still do it, defiantly blessing each other, something that normally is reserved for God, correct? Yet I highly doubt that at the Judgement God won't let Catholics into Heaven because they decided that blessing their own community was a good idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 25 2005, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 25 2005, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, I can tell you that God is a jealous God - he probably wouldn't want people praying to anyone but him (including Mary). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait. I thought God was all-loving? It seems odd that a jealous God could also be all-loving. Unless I'm misunderstanding your position, and you don't think God is all-loving.
I need to find another word for "all-loving".
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, she's a spirit. In heaven. Not limited by corporeal standards. Where does it say in the Bible that she can't intervene on my behalf? Lack of proof != lack of truth. Heck, you should know this very well; you're a creationist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But surely it would be safer to pray to God? She might be able to intervene on your behalf, but then again, she might not.
He's been laughing his arse off for quite a while now I'm sure. I maintain that we are God's antfarm. You can disagree with me, but you can't prove me wrong, so don't even try. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Being worshipped gets old after a while. Would you care for an antfarm if all the ants ever did was worship you? It's mighty boring. Very little variety, very little individuality. Nothing really happens. No, the ants are much more fun to watch when they go around doing their daily business. And sometimes you have an ant that starts doing unorthodox and highly interesting stuff. THAT'S the ant that God is paying attention to. THAT'S the ant that YOU want to be.
But I could of course be wrong. Since I have no way to tell before I die though, I might as well go by my own feelings.
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Feb 26 2005, 08:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Feb 26 2005, 08:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being worshipped gets old after a while. Would you care for an antfarm if all the ants ever did was worship you? It's mighty boring. Very little variety, very little individuality. Nothing really happens. No, the ants are much more fun to watch when they go around doing their daily business. And sometimes you have an ant that starts doing unorthodox and highly interesting stuff. THAT'S the ant that God is paying attention to. THAT'S the ant that YOU want to be.
But I could of course be wrong. Since I have no way to tell before I die though, I might as well go by my own feelings. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I had a childhood friend who just loved to pour bleach down anthills.
Considering that, no matter how high a level you are, each dead ant will give you at least a single experience point, that is an extremely quick (and cheap) way to level up.
<!--QuoteBegin-kida+Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's just a big hissyfit. god's probably laffin his arse off. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Reminds me of that South Park episode: Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!" Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!" Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons." Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 26 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 26 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kida+Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's just a big hissyfit. god's probably laffin his arse off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Reminds me of that South Park episode: Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!" Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!" Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons." Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny but it brings up a really good point, all the religions, and there are quite a few, believe fully they are the one and only correct path to heaven/paradise/virginland.
We have absolutely no way of knowing which of them, if any are correct, so the best thing you can do is live life to the fullest the way you would want to live it.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 26 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 26 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 26 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 26 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kida+Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's just a big hissyfit. god's probably laffin his arse off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Reminds me of that South Park episode: Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!" Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!" Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons." Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny but it brings up a really good point, all the religions, and there are quite a few, believe fully they are the one and only correct path to heaven/paradise/virginland.
We have absolutely no way of knowing which of them, if any are correct, so the best thing you can do is live life to the fullest the way you would want to live it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Another point for my way of looking at things. I'm fairly certain most religions in the world include some kind of "be nice to the people around you" law, so voila! all good people get into heaven; God doesn't judge based on where you were born/what your parents believed (big influences on a person's religion).
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 26 2005, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 26 2005, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 26 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 26 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 26 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 26 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kida+Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Feb 26 2005, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's just a big hissyfit. god's probably laffin his arse off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Reminds me of that South Park episode: Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!" Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!" Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons." Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny but it brings up a really good point, all the religions, and there are quite a few, believe fully they are the one and only correct path to heaven/paradise/virginland.
We have absolutely no way of knowing which of them, if any are correct, so the best thing you can do is live life to the fullest the way you would want to live it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another point for my way of looking at things. I'm fairly certain most religions in the world include some kind of "be nice to the people around you" law, so voila! all good people get into heaven; God doesn't judge based on where you were born/what your parents believed (big influences on a person's religion). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Is there any scriptural basis for this, or is this just something people come up with, because they want it this way?
I say this with the knowledge (assumption if you want to put it that way) that God is more than human.
To slightly veer off-topic, the cynical view of we-are-Gods-anthill just does not work. You're looking at it from a human perspective, at how you as a human would feel. You don't know how a higher being would feel so no, it just doesn't work.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there any scriptural basis for this, or is this just something people come up with, because they want it this way?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of theological theories appear because of this don't you think? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Theistic evolution is certainly appealing to me. It helps to explain the evolutionary truths I hold. Not Man-was-created-by-evolution evolution but the kind that changes happen to species as time goes on and brings about new forms kind of thing. An example I can give is from a creationism theory video I just watched is that of Noahs ark. You would think that it would be impossible to take aboard the ark all of the land animals in the world. But what if Noah took aboard only one of each type of animal? When the earth was dry again he let them roam free again and evolution happened, bringing about all the other sub species. And since God created the very nature of the universe, it would mean that evolution was a design spec of God.
Comments
Seeing as the vast majority of Christians are not literalists, it's kinda hard to see how this woul dbe "damaging" to anything other than your own view of things Pepe, which happens to be the minority view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vast majority of Christians are in it for the fire insurance. Just because they are a majority doesn't mean their interpretation is correct - especially when God says otherwise.
The Bible makes many claims about itself - it claims to be infailable, everlasting, God's word, Law - Even if everyone in the world denied these claims it wouldn't make them any less true.
The act of denying portions of the Bible (OT for an example) is an afront to God. By doing so you are in effect telling God that your wisdom in your finite brain is much greater than God's wisdom. The mentality of "I don't understand, therefore it can't have happened" puts humans ahead of God - a place we were never meant to be.
Now, if you want to ask me what I think of the state of Christianity in this nation / world wide - I say "not good". For all those "christians" who don't read their Bible, nor care what God has to say to them - what hope do you have? is the prayer "forgive all my sins this day and forever, I'm never going to talk to you agian unless I'm in trouble" - is that going to save you?
Might doesn't make right, neither does majority make right. God makes right, and if God gave us the whole Bible, and says "this is what is right" - the by gosh, who am I to say different?
What if God, if he exists, created humans, which were originally primates, and they evolved in to modern humans from there? Is it so unreasonable to think that maybe God actually looks like a monkey? People are waaaay too obsessed with looks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wouldn't neccessarily have to look like the bottom of the chain. Seeing as how He's omniscient, He may look like what we one day become.
What if God, if he exists, created humans, which were originally primates, and they evolved in to modern humans from there? Is it so unreasonable to think that maybe God actually looks like a monkey? People are waaaay too obsessed with looks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wouldn't neccessarily have to look like the bottom of the chain. Seeing as how He's omniscient, He may look like what we one day become. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he's a collection of various proteomes and amino acids. Or maybe he's blue-green algae...or a trilobite...those were cool.
I would assume, based on Christianity, he would look like his son. I don't think it really matters; it could just be refering to the fact that we'd have conscious thought and the rest of the species don't or some other weird thing.
Oh, on the contrary, they have sincere belief, but they don't think a literal Bible makes much sense. I should note that Catholicism is the largest and most succesful Christian sect, and it is not literalist. In fact, hard and fast literalism is pretty much a 20th century development of fundamentalism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Bible makes many claims about itself - it claims to be infailable, everlasting, God's word, Law - Even if everyone in the world denied these claims it wouldn't make them any less true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gene Ray of timecube.com claims he's infaliable too. So what?
You bigger problem, however, is that it's impossible for the Bible to make claims about itself. Not one of the words in the Bible was written by anyone who had any inkling that there even would BE a Bible. They might referenec their own words as infaliable missives from God (just like the Son of Sam!) or that Scripture is, but they can't refer to the Bible as a whole because it didn't exist and wasn't concieved of when any of the books of the Bible were written.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The act of denying portions of the Bible (OT for an example) is an afront to God. By doing so you are in effect telling God that your wisdom in your finite brain is much greater than God's wisdom.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's only if you preassume that the Bible is litteral and infaliable. Which is known as begging the question. You can't simply assume something is true, and then claim to have an argument that proves it when really you're just smuggling in the basic assumption as a premise and then pretending to "discover" it by argument.
In fact, the RCC professes many anti-biblical things - for instance, Immaculate conception, prayer to the saints, prayer to Mary (for intercession), trans-substantiation, infalibilty of papal decree, purgatory, indulgences (purchasing your way to heaven).
These are a few of the many things that humans have put in the way of God - they are "other paths" - just RCC sanctioned paths. All these things are extra-biblical, and are the reasons behind the reformation (yes, I acknowledge there were political reasons as well, but the theological are much more noteworthy.)
I suggest that there are very few RCC Christians - being a christian involves following Christ - and most RCC follow Catholicism, in which the person of Christ is reduced in a sea of ritual, meaningless confessions, and a sub-standard understanding of the Bible (which they claim to follow).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I suggest that there are very few RCC Christians - being a christian involves following Christ - and most RCC follow Catholicism, in which the person of Christ is reduced in a sea of ritual, meaningless confessions, and a sub-standard understanding of the Bible (which they claim to follow). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, if you remember what I've said in previous religious threads, you'll know that I'm definitely not a literalist. Also, I don't care much for these "seas of rituals" you speak of; I never fail to join in the worship of Easter, Christmas, and Lent, but that's pretty much it. I mean, it's not like I openly try to avoid doing things like putting the ash on my forehead on Ash Wednesday, I just don't make that great of an effort to remember.
Meaningless confession....that's more of a problem with the person than the faith, wouldn't you say? If a person doesn't spill his or her sins to the priest, that's not really a mark against Catholicism more than a mark against that person.
Substandard understanding of the Bible.....there are literalist Catholics and there are nonliteralist Catholics. Once again, if someone doesn't understand the Bible it's not his religion's fault. Maybe he's lazy. Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe (and this is what I feel) you <u>don't need to read the Bible to be a good Christian</u>. Reading the Bible obviously doesn't give any high insights into God's plan, or else there would be no such profession as "theologian". People interpret the Bible; the meaning is not clear. So instead of slog through that book, that may or may not be the word of God or just the writings of men, I will listen to the important passages that my pastor decides are relevant.
Also, and this is important, the most important part of being a Christian, according to Jesus, has nothing to do with reading or understanding the Bible. Community service, helping people, being a decent human being, those are the things you need, not reading a book every day. Which would Jesus prefer: that you listen to him everyday or that you act like him everyday? Somehow I think He would like us all to talk a little less and do a little more.
One other thing, about prayer to Mary and the Saints: praying to a saint != worshipping another God. There's nothing in the Bible that says you can't pray to someone; Mary, a saint, even your dead grandfather. As long as you recognize that the person you are praying to is not God, you're not breaking any Biblical rules.
Oh, and I've never heard of indulgences, probably because no real Catholic actually believes in such a thing, or is taught such a thing. *Gasp* we differ in belief from the Pope/Rome/whoever came up with indulgence. That doesn't mean that we aren't still Catholics, just Catholics that don't believe in buying one's way to heaven.
Do you know why people confess to a priest? Do you know the theological reasoning behind that? Same thing with Mary - why do people pray to her? What can she do for anyone?
The purpose for those things is because the papacy (those in charge of the RCC) decided that people (like you and me) shouldn't be allowed to talk directly to God. According to RCC doctrine, you can not recieve forgivness for your sins unless you confess - directly to a priest.
The Bible directly contradicts that - Jesus died for our sins - not the priest. Our only means for forgivenss is through Jesus - the ultimate High Priest. Going through a human priest is robbing Jesus of his position, and providing an alternate route for forgivness. After all, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life".
As for praying to Mary / Saints - you shall have no other Gods before me, you shall not bow down to them, or worship them. Why pray to them? Can they forgive sin? or interceed for us? - What is the point with doing something that looks like/borders on idolatry if they can't help save souls one iota?
As for reading the Bible - sure, I can understand an argument that says you don't need to read it to "be a good Christian". I argue that it is coming from a faulty premise though. You look to your religion / faith in your religion and Gods good graces for salvation. It is based on the thought that you are a "good person" and so deserve a spot in heaven (or at least not one in hell). Therefore, understanding of the Bible is less important than "being good" - why waste time reading it when someone else can interpret it for you.
I disagree. No one is "good enough" for God - not me, not you... heck, not even the virgin mary herself! Her only hope was complete trust in her son. The same thing applies today - but how can you completely trust in him when you don't understand what he is doing? How can you be good when your concept of what good is is "community service"?
No, I'm not slamming community service or your desire to do that - good for you. However, I fail to see (Biblically) where that is going to earn you brownie points in Heaven?
One last thing - how do you expect to "act like Jesus every day" if you don't read how he acted - understand what he did? If your priest tells you that being decent is enough, I'm afraid he isn't telling you what the Bible says.
Please don't be offended either - that isn't my point, and I would feel bad if I did offend you. I just want you to question - perhaps enough so you do pick up a Bible and read it. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Since I'm not Catholic, I'll let Sky address the issue, but I remember finding an explanation from a Christdot discussion which seems pretty valid:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Praying isn't necessarily an act between a religious adherent and a deity, but can be any request between a petitioner and the one being petitioned. In fact, in the King James Bible, pray is used frequently in requests between two people. It's ironic that many Protestants who are KJV only have such a problem when we say we pray to Saints. They should understand the meaning of the word.
We don't worship Saints or believe they have mystical powers, which is what many Protestants accuse us of. However, praying (requesting) through Saints is a tradition that goes back at least to very early Christianity. There are prayers to Saints inscribed in the catacombs from the first few centuries A.D.
Praying through Saints is not required for being a Catholic and if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. It doesn't make you any less a Catholic. We are very glad to have you as part of our church.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://christdot.gospelcom.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4641&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0' target='_blank'>The discussion goes a lot more in depth.</a>
Also, does anyone have a link to a post Legionnaired made a while back which lists about five different ways to reading the Bible? For example, there's verses which we take in literally, there's verses which we should treat as symbolically, there's verses we should read under the historical context of the given time, etc. I still consider the Bible valid, even OT, but I honestly believe the literal interpretation of certain passages is detrimental.
Question: The Bible is considered infalliable, and God gave instructions that no one is to add or subtract from his word. Why then, did Protestants take the initiative to <a href='http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203fea3.asp' target='_blank'>subtract from the Old Testament</a>. Furthermore, this appears not to have been the case for the first issues of the KJV Bibles:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you be surprised to learn that the 1611 version of the King James Bible (a Protestant Bible) contained all the books of the Septuagint, even those seven later deleted from Protestant Bibles? In fact, there was an ordinance at that time that anyone who printed the King James Bible without those seven books should be imprisoned for a year (E. Goodspeed, The Story of the Apocrypha, University of Chicago Press, 136).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I'm spewing out a lot of cesspool here right now; I'm going through the <a href='http://www.ritchies.net/churchhi.htm' target='_blank'>church history</a> link I posted earlier (written with a Protestant perspective) to see if I can answer some of my own questions...
And with that, you've basically taken yourself out of the range of reasonable argument and into the usual anti-Catholic bigotry.
The fact is, Catholicism has some different beliefs than you. But you can only claim their beliefs are wrong by assuming that YOUR beliefs are true. Which gets us absolutely nowhere. Catholics feel the same about you. So what? Neither of you have exclusive claim to the term "Christian."
Oh really? I did not know that. Probably because I don't give a damn; leader of the church or not, the Pope isn't telling me if I can or can't pray to God. And yes, it's quite alright for a Catholic to disagree with the Pope and still be a Catholic. It'd be the same if I disagreed with my priest, or my friend; no two people will ever share the exact same beliefs, so a little variation doesn't exclude me from the catholic church.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for praying to Mary / Saints - you shall have no other Gods before me, you shall not bow down to them, or worship them. Why pray to them? Can they forgive sin? or interceed for us? - What is the point with doing something that looks like/borders on idolatry if they can't help save souls one iota?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I'm sure everyone who prays to saints or dead relatives has there own reasons. I personally believe in guardian angels. I mean, I do a lot of things that I probably shouldn't have lived through (not drugs or anything, I mean stupid things like falling off of roofs and such). And to be honest, I'm just not that frickin lucky. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> And, even though I know God <i>could</i> have saved me on these occasions, it just seems more....comforting, I suppose, that an angel and/or spirit of a dead relative is looking out for me personally.
Prayers for forgiveness go to God, because only He can forgive.
Prayers for intelligence, luck, guidance: I could ask God, but somehow it makes sense that there are others up there in Heaven that could do the same job, so to speak. It's not like I'm asking my grandpa to put in a good word to God to save my soul, I'm just looking for a little comfort, that's all. You look to your parents for comfort when you're in pain, even if they can't do anything directly to help heal you, just because they're your parents and they are there for you. Well, same thing with prayers to spirits other than God.
I have to go to school like now, so just one more part:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I'm not slamming community service or your desire to do that - good for you. However, I fail to see (Biblically) where that is going to earn you brownie points in Heaven?
One last thing - how do you expect to "act like Jesus every day" if you don't read how he acted - understand what he did? If your priest tells you that being decent is enough, I'm afraid he isn't telling you what the Bible says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say I haven't read the Bible, just that I haven't read it that thoroughly. And the one thing that I remember standing out the most from reading the New Testament was Jesus saying that the most important two principles to live by were "Honor thy father and mother" and "Love thy neighbor as yourself". The first is easy enough, the second I do through community service. That's why I think that service is the most important thing a Christian can do in his life.
One last thing - how do you expect to "act like Jesus every day" if you don't read how he acted - understand what he did? If your priest tells you that being decent is enough, I'm afraid he isn't telling you what the Bible says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say I haven't read the Bible, just that I haven't read it that thoroughly. And the one thing that I remember standing out the most from reading the New Testament was Jesus saying that the most important two principles to live by were "Honor thy father and mother" and "Love thy neighbor as yourself". The first is easy enough, the second I do through community service. That's why I think that service is the most important thing a Christian can do in his life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for awesomeness. Sky roxxors meh boxors.
And with that, you've basically taken yourself out of the range of reasonable argument and into the usual anti-Catholic bigotry.
The fact is, Catholicism has some different beliefs than you. But you can only claim their beliefs are wrong by assuming that YOUR beliefs are true. Which gets us absolutely nowhere. Catholics feel the same about you. So what? Neither of you have exclusive claim to the term "Christian."
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect.
I do not assume my beliefs are true. I do assume the Bible is true. Since both Catholics and I claim "christian" - our primary goal is by default to follow Christ. All the info we know about christ comes from the Bible - therefore both Catholics and I should measure our belief structure by its (the bibles) contents.
All I am doing is trying to point out inconsistencies with RCC doctrine and the Bible. I am not trying to be a bigot, I am just holding the belief structure up to a standard which they claim to hold - the Bible.
@sky - unfortunatly in "roxoring my boxors" you misquoted. Jesus said the 2 things are:
1. Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strenght.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Those two commands are a shrunk down version of the 10 commandments (the first 3 deal with how to love God, the last 7 deal with how to love your neighbor)
Now, lets take the topic of prayer to Mary - as the ultimate in "praying to someone not God" topic. When we pray to God, we assume things about God - we assume that he hears us, that he can comprehend more than one prayer at a time, that he cares, that he is able to do something about our prayers. These things can be gleaned from the Bible - as they are commandments. Jesus himself taught us how to pray (inser Lord's prayer).
Now apply that to Mary. Can she hear us? she isn't infinite like God, so how can she? Can she do something about our requests? Can she command angles to help us? Can she comprehend more than one persons prayer at a time? In other words - has she been granted godlike powers - and if so, where is the Biblical proof for that? People specifically pray to her for "intercession" - either for sin, or for good will (let me survive my next fall of the roof type stuff). Where is the Biblical backing for her intercessory abilities?
@Dessidious Confuzor
here is a decent link as to why Protestants reject the extra books of the Bible (commonly called the apocrypha). It is a good read, and I recommend the clicky.
<a href='http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm' target='_blank'>Reasons Why</a>
To sum up:
They were never recognized as Jewish Scripture
Contains false doctrine
As for the implication that the Bible originally contained the apocrypha, and then those books were subtracted from it - no. The Bible orignally contained the OT (recognized by Jews as scripture) and then the smaller collection of letters that Paul (and others) wrote - the NT. The apocrypha were slid in as "intertestamental" books - but never were they claimed to be divinly inspired - interesting to read, but not "words of God".
As a result, during various councils (Council at Nicea for one) the cannon of the Bible was set to be 72 books - with the understanding that God, through the Holy Spirit was leading the council to rightly choose which books to cannonize. God would be using the same priniciple of inspiration during this choosing process as he used during the creation of the books, and in their preservation over time.
1. Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strenght.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least I didn't screw up the one that I was using to prove my point about community work, so if you just ignore half of my attempt at quoting scripture, my point stands. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now apply that to Mary. Can she hear us? she isn't infinite like God, so how can she? Can she do something about our requests? Can she command angles to help us? Can she comprehend more than one persons prayer at a time? In other words - has she been granted godlike powers - and if so, where is the Biblical proof for that? People specifically pray to her for "intercession" - either for sin, or for good will (let me survive my next fall of the roof type stuff). Where is the Biblical backing for her intercessory abilities?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, she's a spirit. In heaven. Not limited by corporeal standards. Where does it say in the Bible that she <i>can't</i> intervene on my behalf? Lack of proof != lack of truth. Heck, you should know this very well; you're a creationist. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oooh, I like that. Lack of proof != lack of truth. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In other words, the actions flow from a right understanding of Christ. Without a proper foundation, all our good works are as filthy rags - and none of them count for anything before God.
Now to Mary:
In case you didn't know (just and FYI off track) Jesus did have other siblings. Mary's virginity only lasted until Jesus was born - then Joseph resumed his husbandly duties <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
As for other "proof" that she is an ordinary woman - not to be prayed to - all we have to do is look to Jesus's words and how he references her.
Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
So, I will give you credit - No, I can't prove that she doesn't have godlike powers, as I am not dead and sitting next to her to find out for myself.
However, I can tell you that God is a jealous God - he probably wouldn't want people praying to anyone but him (including Mary). I can tell you that while Mary was alive, she did not receive any raised status - the focus has always been on Jesus. I can point the doctrine concerning Mary all the way back to its roots - a way to control the masses and deny them access to Jesus. I can point to other means the RCC has used to control people (confession to a priest, indulgences, papal authority - direct from Peter to present day, Keys of the Kingdom) all these have been used to distract RCC members from Jesus and drown them in a sea of ritual.
Yeah, all this is circumstantial evidence, and yeah, people will still pray to Mary. The way I see it, at best, it is a fruitless waste of time (endorsed by the Pope) - At worst, everyone who does is bowing to an idol.
@Dessidious Confuzor
here is a decent link as to why Protestants reject the extra books of the Bible (commonly called the apocrypha). It is a good read, and I recommend the clicky.
<a href='http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm' target='_blank'>Reasons Why</a>
To sum up:
They were never recognized as Jewish Scripture
Contains false doctrine
As for the implication that the Bible originally contained the apocrypha, and then those books were subtracted from it - no. The Bible orignally contained the OT (recognized by Jews as scripture) and then the smaller collection of letters that Paul (and others) wrote - the NT. The apocrypha were slid in as "intertestamental" books - but never were they claimed to be divinly inspired - interesting to read, but not "words of God".
As a result, during various councils (Council at Nicea for one) the cannon of the Bible was set to be 72 books - with the understanding that God, through the Holy Spirit was leading the council to rightly choose which books to cannonize. God would be using the same priniciple of inspiration during this choosing process as he used during the creation of the books, and in their preservation over time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As valid as the general points of the argument are, I like how blatantly Protestantcentric the site is. Kudos to them for represent the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox as Spy vs Spy.
I also did a quick translation of the the supposed "offensive materials" they had had based on Ecclesiasticus in conjunction with the <a href='http://www.latinvulgate.com/' target='_blank'>Latin Vulgate</a>.
<b>Ecclesiasticus 25:19</b>
<i>Site says: Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity.
Vulgate says: And any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman:</i>
(the next set of verses end off with a colon, until it reaches verse 23, which is:
<i>And there is no anger above the anger of a woman. It will be more agreeable to abide with a lion and a dragon, than to dwell with a wicked woman.</i>
Hmm... parallels the "better to sleep on a roof than in bed with a quarreling wife" Bible verse.
<b>Ecclesiasticus 25:24</b>
<i>Site says: From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.
Vulgate says: The wickedness of a woman changeth her face: and she darkeneth her countenance as a bear: and sheweth it like sackcloth. In the midst of her neighbours,</i>
[edit]Actually, that passage they quote is in, but they used shoddy quotation. The verse they refer to is verse 33. Taking the literal account of the Adam and Eve however, I can't technically fault this verse, one of the many reasons why I don't accept the literal translation of Genesis[/edit]
And probably the worst one...
<b>Ecclesiasticus 22:3</b>
<i>Site says: It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.
Vulgate says: A son ill taught is the confusion of the father: and a <b>foolish</b> daughter shall be to his loss.</i>
Makes me wonder what else they tried to slip in to support their Eastern Orthodox/Catholic bashing.
But you don't come to it with the same assumptions. You come to with the ASSUMPTION that it must be read litterally and is litterally infaliable. Not everyone does that, and indeed most Christians don't. You can say "incorrect" all you want: the fact that you bring your own assumptions in is plain as day to anyone who then goes and read your actual arguments, regardless of your denials.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now apply that to Mary. Can she hear us? she isn't infinite like God, so how can she? Can she do something about our requests? Can she command angles to help us? Can she comprehend more than one persons prayer at a time? In other words - has she been granted godlike powers - and if so, where is the Biblical proof for that? People specifically pray to her for "intercession" - either for sin, or for good will (let me survive my next fall of the roof type stuff). Where is the Biblical backing for her intercessory abilities?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Catholics don't hold the Bible to be the sole source of authority. They also have the traditions and the magisteruim. Nothing in the Bible says that it is to be taken as the sole authority on things, and indeed even if it did that would only beg the question. So again, you are just smuggling your own religious beliefs in, assuming them to be true, and then declaring that others are wrong because they don't believe what you think they should. That's just kinda silly.
In other words, the actions flow from a right understanding of Christ. Without a proper foundation, all our good works are as filthy rags - and none of them count for anything before God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You claim to understand God, yet people around the world devote their lives towards interpreting and understanding the Bible. Face it: reading the Bible doesn't imbue you with ultimate knowledge of God's plan and will. However, one thing I do know is that God will not judge too harshly anyone who at least tries to live his life for God. Not a single human being will ever get it down perfectly, and I contend that reading the Bible won't get you nearly as close to the "right" path as you think it will. When you read the Bible, you might take out of it a completely wrong idea, something God never intended. However, community service can never be bad, so therefore it [u]is[/i] better than reading the Bible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for other "proof" that she is an ordinary woman - not to be prayed to - all we have to do is look to Jesus's words and how he references her. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ordinary or not, you can still pray to her. I pray to my grandpa for guidance all the time; he's only been dead 4 years as of Valentine's Day.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, all this is circumstantial evidence, and yeah, people will still pray to Mary. The way I see it, at best, it is a fruitless waste of time (endorsed by the Pope) - At worst, everyone who does is bowing to an idol. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, here's another thing Catholics do (and maybe other Christians, for all I know): the offering of peace at mass. Now, I doubt that Jesus told people that they could bless each other with a "peace be with you"; I mean, that was kinda his job. But Catholics still do it, defiantly blessing each other, something that normally is reserved for God, correct? Yet I highly doubt that at the Judgement God won't let Catholics into Heaven because they decided that blessing their own community was a good idea.
Wait. I thought God was all-loving? It seems odd that a jealous God could also be all-loving. Unless I'm misunderstanding your position, and you don't think God is all-loving.
I need to find another word for "all-loving".
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, she's a spirit. In heaven. Not limited by corporeal standards. Where does it say in the Bible that she can't intervene on my behalf? Lack of proof != lack of truth. Heck, you should know this very well; you're a creationist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But surely it would be safer to pray to God? She might be able to intervene on your behalf, but then again, she might not.
I maintain that we are God's antfarm. You can disagree with me, but you can't prove me wrong, so don't even try. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Being worshipped gets old after a while. Would you care for an antfarm if all the ants ever did was worship you? It's mighty boring. Very little variety, very little individuality. Nothing really happens. No, the ants are much more fun to watch when they go around doing their daily business. And sometimes you have an ant that starts doing unorthodox and highly interesting stuff. THAT'S the ant that God is paying attention to. THAT'S the ant that YOU want to be.
But I could of course be wrong. Since I have no way to tell before I die though, I might as well go by my own feelings.
But I could of course be wrong. Since I have no way to tell before I die though, I might as well go by my own feelings. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had a childhood friend who just loved to pour bleach down anthills.
Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Reminds me of that South Park episode:
Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!"
Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!"
Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons."
Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Reminds me of that South Park episode:
Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!"
Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!"
Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons."
Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny but it brings up a really good point, all the religions, and there are quite a few, believe fully they are the one and only correct path to heaven/paradise/virginland.
We have absolutely no way of knowing which of them, if any are correct, so the best thing you can do is live life to the fullest the way you would want to live it.
Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Reminds me of that South Park episode:
Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!"
Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!"
Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons."
Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny but it brings up a really good point, all the religions, and there are quite a few, believe fully they are the one and only correct path to heaven/paradise/virginland.
We have absolutely no way of knowing which of them, if any are correct, so the best thing you can do is live life to the fullest the way you would want to live it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another point for my way of looking at things. I'm fairly certain most religions in the world include some kind of "be nice to the people around you" law, so voila! all good people get into heaven; God doesn't judge based on where you were born/what your parents believed (big influences on a person's religion).
Indeed He probably is. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Reminds me of that South Park episode:
Guy1: "What, what am I doing in Hell? I was a devout Catholic!"
Guy2: "I was a devout Protestant!"
Satan representative...guy: "I'm sorry, people, the correct religion was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons."
Big Crowd: "Awwwww...."
Or something like that <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny but it brings up a really good point, all the religions, and there are quite a few, believe fully they are the one and only correct path to heaven/paradise/virginland.
We have absolutely no way of knowing which of them, if any are correct, so the best thing you can do is live life to the fullest the way you would want to live it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another point for my way of looking at things. I'm fairly certain most religions in the world include some kind of "be nice to the people around you" law, so voila! all good people get into heaven; God doesn't judge based on where you were born/what your parents believed (big influences on a person's religion). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there any scriptural basis for this, or is this just something people come up with, because they want it this way?
To slightly veer off-topic, the cynical view of we-are-Gods-anthill just does not work. You're looking at it from a human perspective, at how you as a human would feel. You don't know how a higher being would feel so no, it just doesn't work.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there any scriptural basis for this, or is this just something people come up with, because they want it this way?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of theological theories appear because of this don't you think? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Theistic evolution is certainly appealing to me. It helps to explain the evolutionary truths I hold. Not Man-was-created-by-evolution evolution but the kind that changes happen to species as time goes on and brings about new forms kind of thing. An example I can give is from a creationism theory video I just watched is that of Noahs ark. You would think that it would be impossible to take aboard the ark all of the land animals in the world. But what if Noah took aboard only one of each type of animal? When the earth was dry again he let them roam free again and evolution happened, bringing about all the other sub species. And since God created the very nature of the universe, it would mean that evolution was a design spec of God.