Aliens can be spotted at normal gamma if you know what to look for. Trust me on this.
While cloaked aliens might not be "fun", I can assure you its not fun during the midgame if you went SC and failed to get a second hive.
Even if you DO get a second hive you're put in a real bind. Do you go MC next, so that you can rapid response, or do you do go DC for focus/cara and hope to break the marine advance?
I've seen SC first strats die midgame because MC and SC are relatively poor midgame. As long as there is an obs and some regular ping, upgraded marines can scythe through aliens.
If you go DC, then marines just have to siege both hives at once. Your forces are split and you have no MC to get from one to the other. Worst case scenario, the rines cap the middle hive, and you're stuck having to cross marine-land in order to get to the other hive. Fun times.
SC is great for aggressive coordinated teams, but usually it'll just die midgame because marine midrange tech outclasses SC first builds. The trick is for marines to live long enough to get to midgame....
I played the new version just 3 times, i have been 2 times alien and 1 time marine... and everytime sensory were built, so...
Since the new version's release it is lagging very much (known problem) but when i bunnyhopped around with cloak i just killed about 5 marines without dying... but however, i know that the players arent the worst players who ever played ns, mostly they had been able to kill me if i was rushing into a marine"crowd" of 2 or more people. Now they cant... (and just think about my lags <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I think i would get used to cloak as marine quite fast cos it is not that aliens are 100% cloaked but one abiltiy of the aliens with sensory is just too strong: FOCUS !!!111oneoneone
- (skilled) focus-fades are very hard to kill, even if they dont got any other hive or chamber -focus-skulks who are ambushing are also very dangerous cos you need to be welded if you were hit once and welder just cost to much if you also need motion tracking, armorup(s) and two or more observatories... - focus needs too few adrenaline
I would say that the marines must get cheaper ways of getting able to handle with sc (like the mentioned "welderupgrade" or maybe armormedpacks O_o ) or the power of sensory chambers must decrease in a way
The changes would be fair if focus will not exist any more ( in my opinion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
In my experience, Marines lose to Sensory first because the Commander doesn't Scan. In Combat, I've seen more Marines get Scan to help with cloaked aliens.
I think that the new sensory is **** off the Rambos. They can't just run around killing anything that looks at them oddly.
Teamwork is the key. Through force of numbers, a marine squad should triumph a good portion of the time. Back up your buddy and they'll do the same.
I'm liking the communications aspect that it forces, and honestly, I prefer to play Marines now. Previously, I didn't have a preference, and could play either side and have fun, but I really do like the challenge that the new sensory is giving.
And the truth is, with an inadequate commander, you won't do well no matter which chamber the aliens put down first.
Heres the problem with sensory: it gives 2 inate abilities (cloaking and sof) within chamber range. Compared to the other two chambers, which only give 1 inate abilitiy, sensory is over powered. Either take away cloaking or sof, or make the inate sof ability only available to an alien within the sensory range (not from anywhere in the map).
another idea, take sof away from the chambers and give it to line of site for aliens... alien sees a marine = shows up as sof across the map for all aliens, or whatever the range on aliens sof is. just a thought
That wouldn't go well with the parasite system, would it? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do feel the sof on chambers should go, though. It just totally removes any skill involved with scouting and it allows you to have both focus, cloaking and scent of fear within a chambers radius. It's like giving skulks carapace in range of DC's or celerity and silence within range in a MC. (just repeating digz)
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 12 2005, 07:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 12 2005, 07:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That wouldn't go well with the parasite system, would it? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well thats how it worked in 1.04...
marines who were paraisted OR in view of an alien appeared on the HUD with the yellow rotating wedge thingy.
Makes sence as the marines appear on the +map why not appear as a SoF sprite if they are sighted?
Mr-Ben - while you do indeed have cloaking in range of a camber you don't really have SoF unless you are actually on top of the chamber. You won't see a marine outside the range if you are near the edge.
i dont find much trouble killing/spotting the skulks, its just more challenging. if you hear footsteps really close to you and all of a sudden nothing, chances are the skulk is walking towards you. so all you do is spray the general direction with an LMG and you will probably hit him on the 5-8th shot and reveal him and kill him.
i didnt read all the pages so dont get **** at me typing what has been said
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Mar 12 2005, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Mar 12 2005, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Heres the problem with sensory: it gives 2 inate abilities (cloaking and sof) within chamber range. Compared to the other two chambers, which only give 1 inate abilitiy, sensory is over powered. Either take away cloaking or sof, or make the inate sof ability only available to an alien within the sensory range (not from anywhere in the map). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very very very good point.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Mar 12 2005, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Mar 12 2005, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Heres the problem with sensory: it gives 2 inate abilities (cloaking and sof) within chamber range. Compared to the other two chambers, which only give 1 inate abilitiy, sensory is over powered. Either take away cloaking or sof, or make the inate sof ability only available to an alien within the sensory range (not from anywhere in the map). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is not a logical argument. There's no question that SCs have the most powerful chamber effects, but having an advantage in one area is not enough to say that the chamber is overpowered. You have to look at the big picture when making balance changes. All you're doing is trying to point out the good and ignore the bad.
The SC chamber effects have disadvantages as well... Like the fact that their effect doesn't stack, so you need to spread them across the map to be effective rather than just throwing dropping them in hive rooms like the other chambers. This means that if an SC isn't in a vent somewhere, it's almost guaranteed to be dead once the marines spot it. It also takes a lot of SCs covering the map to take full advantage of those effects, which costs much more res than aliens can afford in the early game.
In other words, it's pointless to ask for every chamber to have an equally powerful chamber effect. If that were true, then their upgrades would have to be equal too, and their HP should be the same... You might as well just get rid of the tech trees entirely. You can't balance vastly different abilities with eachother directly; each chamber has its ups and downs in various areas.
The normal 3 chambers that a gorge is dropping can cover VERY important spots to create a substantial advantage for its SOF/cloaking innate abilities. SC's now give a really good defensive(sof/cloaking) and offensive (focus/cloaking) normal ability. SC's are now great scouts for a map (when used properly). It's allowing a much stronger defense and offense than it was in b5. It's very easy to gain a plethra of res using sc first therefore being able to sc the entire map.
Without getting into a long long post here, Zek, your arguement doesnt hold weight. Any chamber built in the open will likely go down. If you choose not to build a movement or a defence chamber outside the hive, you lose the inate abilities they give you outside the hive. As I said, compared to the other two chambers, sensory is overpowered. It gives <i>too much</i> in "one area" of the tech tree. Sure it has it's weaknesses, but those can <b>easily </b>be overcome by an organized competitive team.
I don't think Sens is overpowered.... I just think people aren't use to countering it yet. now marines actually have to be afraid... they have to think "hmm maybe skulks CAN kill things" they gotta think "maybe I can't just run around the map doing whatever I want because I have 2 rines with me"
its a little flakey in pubs... but I haven't seen much Skilled Marines VS skilled aliens so I don't know how it works in more competive play
Its really a two-fold problem. The sc gives focus and cloaking, two of the most annoying abilities. But with the free upgrades of 3.0f, you're seeing skulks using those abilities. If people went sc's first before, it was usually in a rush situation. Now teams are playing real 2 hive games with sc's as the first chamber, only because skulks can take advantage of those upgrades.
We are just about undefeated on our alien side since 3.0 came out, but we've been using dc's. That just shows you how much the skulk upgrades are making a difference.
They are making a diffrence cause the marines have not changed their tactics to suit 3.0, many of them are still stuck in "rambo around the map" mode..wich doesn't work anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Akalamanaia+Mar 13 2005, 04:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akalamanaia @ Mar 13 2005, 04:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They are making a diffrence cause the marines have not changed their tactics to suit 3.0, many of them are still stuck in "rambo around the map" mode..wich doesn't work anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> even team sweden?
Mates, teamSE thumped teamUK in b5, the next time they played it was a 3-3 tie in 3.0 final. Believe when i say teamUK didn't practise to get better, the only thing that changed was the version.
I'm really not sure how far marines can "adapt." As shocking as it is but most teams already have marine teamwork and run like clockwork. In clan matches rambos aren't the issue, hell, i prefer rambos (see in a clan match we use this thing called teamwork to kill those pesky folk) to a large group of 4/5 storming my hive (again, large groups of marines are a regular sight in clan matches, lack of teamwork isn't an issue here), unfortunately large groups will still get boned up the wazoo. Chamber dependant strategies are also far too impratical to pull off, the fact that it takes a minute to find out what chamber they have pretty much rules that out, so you're still stuck with the safe bet of A1 first. Now given how many sieges you need to take down a hive and the fact that sieging cost you an ABSOLUTE bomb, there really is no way to get the second hive down short of killing the lerk and a lucky shotgun rush.
It's cool though, I can adapt to never winning a marine round.
Actually, digz, the MC offers two upgrade abilities, too: Adrenaline, and a modified redemption. Not necessarily disagreeing with you here, just setting the record straight.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 13 2005, 02:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 13 2005, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, digz, the MC offers two upgrade abilities, too: Adrenaline, and a modified redemption. Not necessarily disagreeing with you here, just setting the record straight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> May I ask how it works like a modified redemption? Its not like a mc will magically appear when you're low on health. The MC works as a transportation to the hive (and adrenaline booster), nothing more, nothing less.
You can't count on using it as a replacement for redemption since it's far too risky.
No, you can use it as an instant teleporter back to one of the four most important structures in the game. All I'm saying is that this is worth <i>something</i> and that SCs are therefore not the only chambers with two upsides. I, and I'm certain you too, have been member of enough alien sieges relying on MCs to get heavily wounded attackers off of the front.
Comments
While cloaked aliens might not be "fun", I can assure you its not fun during the midgame if you went SC and failed to get a second hive.
Even if you DO get a second hive you're put in a real bind. Do you go MC next, so that you can rapid response, or do you do go DC for focus/cara and hope to break the marine advance?
I've seen SC first strats die midgame because MC and SC are relatively poor midgame. As long as there is an obs and some regular ping, upgraded marines can scythe through aliens.
If you go DC, then marines just have to siege both hives at once. Your forces are split and you have no MC to get from one to the other. Worst case scenario, the rines cap the middle hive, and you're stuck having to cross marine-land in order to get to the other hive. Fun times.
SC is great for aggressive coordinated teams, but usually it'll just die midgame because marine midrange tech outclasses SC first builds. The trick is for marines to live long enough to get to midgame....
Since the new version's release it is lagging very much (known problem) but when i bunnyhopped around with cloak i just killed about 5 marines without dying... but however, i know that the players arent the worst players who ever played ns, mostly they had been able to kill me if i was rushing into a marine"crowd" of 2 or more people. Now they cant... (and just think about my lags <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I think i would get used to cloak as marine quite fast cos it is not that aliens are 100% cloaked but one abiltiy of the aliens with sensory is just too strong: FOCUS !!!111oneoneone
- (skilled) focus-fades are very hard to kill, even if they dont got any other hive or chamber
-focus-skulks who are ambushing are also very dangerous cos you need to be welded if you were hit once and welder just cost to much if you also need motion tracking, armorup(s) and two or more observatories...
- focus needs too few adrenaline
I would say that the marines must get cheaper ways of getting able to handle with sc (like the mentioned "welderupgrade" or maybe armormedpacks O_o ) or the power of sensory chambers must decrease in a way
The changes would be fair if focus will not exist any more ( in my opinion <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Teamwork is the key. Through force of numbers, a marine squad should triumph a good portion of the time. Back up your buddy and they'll do the same.
I'm liking the communications aspect that it forces, and honestly, I prefer to play Marines now. Previously, I didn't have a preference, and could play either side and have fun, but I really do like the challenge that the new sensory is giving.
And the truth is, with an inadequate commander, you won't do well no matter which chamber the aliens put down first.
well thats how it worked in 1.04...
marines who were paraisted OR in view of an alien appeared on the HUD with the yellow rotating wedge thingy.
Makes sence as the marines appear on the +map why not appear as a SoF sprite if they are sighted?
Mr-Ben - while you do indeed have cloaking in range of a camber you don't really have SoF unless you are actually on top of the chamber. You won't see a marine outside the range if you are near the edge.
good game.
i love sc. and i'd also love to know swedish enough to understand some of the comments :/
i didnt read all the pages so dont get **** at me typing what has been said
Very very very good point.
That is not a logical argument. There's no question that SCs have the most powerful chamber effects, but having an advantage in one area is not enough to say that the chamber is overpowered. You have to look at the big picture when making balance changes. All you're doing is trying to point out the good and ignore the bad.
The SC chamber effects have disadvantages as well... Like the fact that their effect doesn't stack, so you need to spread them across the map to be effective rather than just throwing dropping them in hive rooms like the other chambers. This means that if an SC isn't in a vent somewhere, it's almost guaranteed to be dead once the marines spot it. It also takes a lot of SCs covering the map to take full advantage of those effects, which costs much more res than aliens can afford in the early game.
In other words, it's pointless to ask for every chamber to have an equally powerful chamber effect. If that were true, then their upgrades would have to be equal too, and their HP should be the same... You might as well just get rid of the tech trees entirely. You can't balance vastly different abilities with eachother directly; each chamber has its ups and downs in various areas.
its a little flakey in pubs... but I haven't seen much Skilled Marines VS skilled aliens so I don't know how it works in more competive play
We are just about undefeated on our alien side since 3.0 came out, but we've been using dc's. That just shows you how much the skulk upgrades are making a difference.
even team sweden?
PWNED? I think so.
Also, I did not even have to change my comm tactics to suit for NS3. NOT ONE THING.
Sure, you gotta adapt, but if you play right from day one, rines will have it a tad harder, but sure hell can win.
30 min playtime max 1 hive pwnage in hera FTW
I'm really not sure how far marines can "adapt." As shocking as it is but most teams already have marine teamwork and run like clockwork. In clan matches rambos aren't the issue, hell, i prefer rambos (see in a clan match we use this thing called teamwork to kill those pesky folk) to a large group of 4/5 storming my hive (again, large groups of marines are a regular sight in clan matches, lack of teamwork isn't an issue here), unfortunately large groups will still get boned up the wazoo. Chamber dependant strategies are also far too impratical to pull off, the fact that it takes a minute to find out what chamber they have pretty much rules that out, so you're still stuck with the safe bet of A1 first. Now given how many sieges you need to take down a hive and the fact that sieging cost you an ABSOLUTE bomb, there really is no way to get the second hive down short of killing the lerk and a lucky shotgun rush.
It's cool though, I can adapt to never winning a marine round.
May I ask how it works like a modified redemption? Its not like a mc will magically appear when you're low on health. The MC works as a transportation to the hive (and adrenaline booster), nothing more, nothing less.
You can't count on using it as a replacement for redemption since it's far too risky.