<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 13 2005, 08:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 13 2005, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> of course you're the ones who have always decided that, still doesnt change the fact that the people who play the most are the ones who can play it the way you've decided.
the skulk used to be able to ambush just fine without any upgrades (and still is), and thats how people played it. for some reason though cloaking (which is apparently intended as to encourage ambushing and stuff like that) and sc in general was given a nice buff. i just dont understand the reasons behind that, it was fine the way it was before =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And we're at the core of the matter. Yes, skulks, good skulks, really, really <i>great</i> skulks were able to ambush just as well without the changes to SC. Saying that this is all right and nothing has to be changed about it means however that in your opinion, because something works well for an estimated three to five percent of our player base, the rest should go and bugger off. I don't know about you, but to me, that design attitude looks suspiciously like prolonged suicide.
I am told that we are reducing the skill gap between new and experienced players in a tone that suggests utter defilery of the game, that makes it clear that we are *gasp* dumbing NS down. I still can't find the memo that explains to me how a leveraged playing field is a bad thing. Natural Selection is a game with a huge contrast between organized and casual gameplay. This is inherent. As long as there is as big an emphasis on teamwork as there is in the current NS (read: as long as this game exists), there will always be a significant gap between newbies and experienced players. Nothing we would do could change this. But if you want new players to ascend into the upper echelons of playing experience, it's a good idea not to alienate them along the way, wouldn't you agree? In other words, it is a good idea to ensure that base and high skill gameplay have at least a semblance of each other. It is necessary to make NS accessible. Are the marines currently underpowered? From the position of a week after the release, and if you are honest, this is still too little a time to form an objective opinion, it looks that way. Well, it isn't as though 3.1 is six months away. There are a number of tweaks, many of which were mentioned in this forum, that are likely to change this. If the situation remains, they will be administred. It's that easy. If you are however in deep disagreement of the direction we're heading, I'm afraid you'll be facing dire times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, skulks, good skulks, really, really great skulks were able to ambush just as well without the changes to SC. Saying that this is all right and nothing has to be changed about it means however that in your opinion, because something works well for an estimated three to five percent of our player base, the rest should go and bugger off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. ambushing was and is a tactic that requires practice, some thinking capability and a general knowledge of how the skulk model attaches to the wall. you do not have to be a "great" skulk to ambush even "good" marines, you just have to be a bit smarter and faster than the casual player. yes, i do feel that this game has been dumbed down: ambushing used to be a skill, now its something any idiot can do with cloaking (ok, almost any). and if a good skulk uses cloak
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But if you want new players to ascend into the upper echelons of playing experience, it's a good idea not to alienate them along the way, wouldn't you agree?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
adding features that allow a player who has just downloaded the game to overwhelm an experienced player just because he is using said feature.. no, it doesnt alienate new players from the game, it alienates the old ones. and that i see as a bigger problem.
You know, I enjoy a little hyperbole to enliven the rethoric myself, but this is so thick it's getting in the way of the arguments. <i>I</i> can kill a first time player with cloaking, and I'm a certifiable failure at all things multiplayer FPS. There is little skill involved in shooting a semitransparent skulk running straight at you down a corridor. I honestly can't find your responses to my points, but simply repetitions of your stance. Well, you're welcome to do that, but I don't see the need to repeat myself, so I'll end my contribution to this thread here.
I have no problem with the new version. Sensory is easily countered by a good commander. I was in a game yesterday where the commander scanned every room right before the marines entered. Total slaughter for the aliens when that happens.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 13 2005, 08:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 13 2005, 08:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know, I enjoy a little hyperbole to enliven the rethoric myself, but this is so thick it's getting in the way of the arguments. <i>I</i> can kill a first time player with cloaking, and I'm a certifiable failure at all things multiplayer FPS. There is little skill involved in shooting a semitransparent skulk running straight at you down a corridor. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the skulk wont run at you semitransparently, it'll wait in a random location that you HAVE to pass, and besides he can still see you coming through walls?
ok, lets edit that "first time player" to a guy who has played the game for, say, 2 days. and he kills a person that has played for 2 years.
Well, actually, to have taken up advanced tactics within your first ten matches, you've got to have quite some raw potential, so we'd better add a 'talented', and seeing that even a talented beginning skulk will still be quite disoriented by the bite viewmodels, I'd argue a 'careless' a little later in the sentence makes sense, too. So now, we've got a talented player with two days of gaming experience overcoming a careless veteran. Suddenly doesn't sound all that bad anymore, does it?
Again, nobody can earnestly say cloaking or the other 3.0f changes are dead-on. There will be the necessity of tweaks, inevitably. But please, at least give the game mechanic a month before criticising it on fundamental grounds.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 13 2005, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 13 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, actually, to have taken up advanced tactics within your first ten matches, you've got to have quite some raw potential, so we'd better add a 'talented', and seeing that even a talented beginning skulk will still be quite disoriented by the bite viewmodels, I'd argue a 'careless' a little later in the sentence makes sense, too. So now, we've got a talented player with two days of gaming experience overcoming a careless veteran. Suddenly doesn't sound all that bad anymore, does it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no. all you need is to realise that if youre cloaked (and not sitting in the middle of the hallway) the marine cant see you, unless youve made a lot of noise and he shoots a few cautious bullets. then you just watch him walk past you and start biting, keeping your "w" key held down and the centre of your screen somewhere around the middle of the marine.
of course this can be argued that "marines should walk in groups" and they do. but the skulk can just wait and attack the last marine in the group. and no the commander does not have enough energy to scan every inch of the map, only the most vital areas. but thats not the real point is it? the point is that its frustrating to fight aliens that you cant see.
i think an nsplayer with the nick "heycheckitoutyo" (an experienced clanner, no doubt) said it best:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking. This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Mar 13 2005, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Mar 13 2005, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Co Sava, has the most unoriginal and not the most sensible vis blockers. Crates. They're huge, ugly and well, if anything change the layout of the map rather than be lazy and stick in a few crates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> DURRRRRRRRRRR
CRATES IN SAVA ARE NOT VIS BLOCKERS
IT DIDN'T HAVE R_SPEEDS PROBLEMS BEFORE AND IT DOESN'T NOW, WHY WOULD I WANT TO PUT VIS BLOCKERS IN THE MAP? THINK AGAIN!
i dont care why the crates are there (in sava), they totally dominate the central area (and they dont fit there either). i almost freaked out when i walked to the 3.0f sava centre area for the first time.
so yeah, if it needs cover then consider some pipes or fancy glass stuff, but crates.. meh =/
In recent light of agreeing stupidly, I agree 100% with comrade, as vis blocking can have a double meaning. English as a first language is a beautiful thing, read between the lines Mendasp <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Mar 13 2005, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Mar 13 2005, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You clearly needed spectacles when judging the LoS changes for Sava. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I will take this comment very seriously because it comes from someone who was recently suspended from this forum.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Vermillion+May 13 2005, 07:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vermillion @ May 13 2005, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> solution= someone buy a server and run brys ns 1.04 on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
<!--QuoteBegin-Vermillion+May 13 2005, 07:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vermillion @ May 13 2005, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> solution= someone buy a server and run brys ns 1.04 on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> dont necro post
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know about you, but to me, that design attitude looks suspiciously like prolonged suicide.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? Oh, I thought you were describing what’s happened to NS – it must have been that “prolonged suicide” bit…
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still can't find the memo that explains to me how a leveraged playing field is a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe thats because you don't play the game enough? You can’t ever make a playing field level. By making SC and cloaking so strong, and so easy to use, you simply make the playing field <b>unbalanced</b>. NS devs know a lot about unbalance though. Let me explain more – if average player A can kill skilled player B with cloaking / focus that is not leveling the playing field. Because once skilled player B has those same advantages, he rapes and destroys player A’s team. I’ve seen it done many times – one skulk taking out 3 marines; I’ve done it many times. Crap like that leads to crap like <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89818' target='_blank'>this</a>. The playing field is far from level when players can become undefeatable gods with a fade.
For all my ridiculing, I must say, +5 armor is a step in the right direction.
Comments
the skulk used to be able to ambush just fine without any upgrades (and still is), and thats how people played it. for some reason though cloaking (which is apparently intended as to encourage ambushing and stuff like that) and sc in general was given a nice buff. i just dont understand the reasons behind that, it was fine the way it was before =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And we're at the core of the matter. Yes, skulks, good skulks, really, really <i>great</i> skulks were able to ambush just as well without the changes to SC. Saying that this is all right and nothing has to be changed about it means however that in your opinion, because something works well for an estimated three to five percent of our player base, the rest should go and bugger off. I don't know about you, but to me, that design attitude looks suspiciously like prolonged suicide.
I am told that we are reducing the skill gap between new and experienced players in a tone that suggests utter defilery of the game, that makes it clear that we are *gasp* dumbing NS down. I still can't find the memo that explains to me how a leveraged playing field is a bad thing.
Natural Selection is a game with a huge contrast between organized and casual gameplay. This is inherent. As long as there is as big an emphasis on teamwork as there is in the current NS (read: as long as this game exists), there will always be a significant gap between newbies and experienced players. Nothing we would do could change this. But if you want new players to ascend into the upper echelons of playing experience, it's a good idea not to alienate them along the way, wouldn't you agree? In other words, it is a good idea to ensure that base and high skill gameplay have at least a semblance of each other. It is necessary to make NS accessible.
Are the marines currently underpowered? From the position of a week after the release, and if you are honest, this is still too little a time to form an objective opinion, it looks that way. Well, it isn't as though 3.1 is six months away. There are a number of tweaks, many of which were mentioned in this forum, that are likely to change this. If the situation remains, they will be administred. It's that easy.
If you are however in deep disagreement of the direction we're heading, I'm afraid you'll be facing dire times.
no. ambushing was and is a tactic that requires practice, some thinking capability and a general knowledge of how the skulk model attaches to the wall. you do not have to be a "great" skulk to ambush even "good" marines, you just have to be a bit smarter and faster than the casual player. yes, i do feel that this game has been dumbed down: ambushing used to be a skill, now its something any idiot can do with cloaking (ok, almost any). and if a good skulk uses cloak
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But if you want new players to ascend into the upper echelons of playing experience, it's a good idea not to alienate them along the way, wouldn't you agree?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
adding features that allow a player who has just downloaded the game to overwhelm an experienced player just because he is using said feature.. no, it doesnt alienate new players from the game, it alienates the old ones. and that i see as a bigger problem.
I honestly can't find your responses to my points, but simply repetitions of your stance. Well, you're welcome to do that, but I don't see the need to repeat myself, so I'll end my contribution to this thread here.
the skulk wont run at you semitransparently, it'll wait in a random location that you HAVE to pass, and besides he can still see you coming through walls?
ok, lets edit that "first time player" to a guy who has played the game for, say, 2 days. and he kills a person that has played for 2 years.
Again, nobody can earnestly say cloaking or the other 3.0f changes are dead-on. There will be the necessity of tweaks, inevitably. But please, at least give the game mechanic a month before criticising it on fundamental grounds.
no. all you need is to realise that if youre cloaked (and not sitting in the middle of the hallway) the marine cant see you, unless youve made a lot of noise and he shoots a few cautious bullets. then you just watch him walk past you and start biting, keeping your "w" key held down and the centre of your screen somewhere around the middle of the marine.
of course this can be argued that "marines should walk in groups" and they do. but the skulk can just wait and attack the last marine in the group. and no the commander does not have enough energy to scan every inch of the map, only the most vital areas. but thats not the real point is it? the point is that its frustrating to fight aliens that you cant see.
i think an nsplayer with the nick "heycheckitoutyo" (an experienced clanner, no doubt) said it best:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking.
This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DURRRRRRRRRRR
CRATES IN SAVA ARE NOT VIS BLOCKERS
IT DIDN'T HAVE R_SPEEDS PROBLEMS BEFORE AND IT DOESN'T NOW, WHY WOULD I WANT TO PUT VIS BLOCKERS IN THE MAP? THINK AGAIN!
so yeah, if it needs cover then consider some pipes or fancy glass stuff, but crates.. meh =/
Doesn't really have to do much with the language. And since you're a mapper I'll automatically assume that you know what a VIS Blocker is.
I will take this comment very seriously because it comes from someone who was recently suspended from this forum.
just go away.
QFT.
dont necro post
Yeah', I got through 2 pages before I saw the date. Dumb **** necro-posters.
Huh? Oh, I thought you were describing what’s happened to NS – it must have been that “prolonged suicide” bit…
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still can't find the memo that explains to me how a leveraged playing field is a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe thats because you don't play the game enough? You can’t ever make a playing field level. By making SC and cloaking so strong, and so easy to use, you simply make the playing field <b>unbalanced</b>. NS devs know a lot about unbalance though. Let me explain more – if average player A can kill skilled player B with cloaking / focus that is not leveling the playing field. Because once skilled player B has those same advantages, he rapes and destroys player A’s team. I’ve seen it done many times – one skulk taking out 3 marines; I’ve done it many times. Crap like that leads to crap like <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89818' target='_blank'>this</a>. The playing field is far from level when players can become undefeatable gods with a fade.
For all my ridiculing, I must say, +5 armor is a step in the right direction.