I'm not too sure what to say about new Bast. The re-addition of MS --> Main Aft route was necessary. But the Reactor Core location, while needed, does't feel very Bastish. It seems really too "clean" when compared to the rest of the map. Other areas have steam lots of "closed-in," in-your-face detail. Take a look at other corridors in the map. They have a very distinct feel to them. Lots of pipes, that red-venty { texture I can't seem to remember the name of, and this shape to them:
(please excuse crappy ASCII art, but the forum removes all of the spaces in the formatting of it.)
To be honest, I don't think that it would hurt to extend the Engine Corridor down to the Main Aft stairway, maybe with a VIS blocker somewhere down the middle of it resembling the one between EM Drill Shaft and the Observation Bridge.
Nextly, lots of the additions you've made were needed. I realize that the ceiling/floor covering the door in MS was needed for (at least what I can conclude) stuff like lerk-ish camping. After many games of Bast, I noticed that hardly anyone goes to Atmospheric or Feedwater through that route anymore.
Also, please try to find some way to make some usefullness out of the elevators in Main Aft. I love them so. Since the B5 version, I've seen them completely ingored in favor of going around the long way to Refinery from Engine (The slanted lift) and through Engine Corridor to get to Engine or Water Treatment (the vertical lift).
I think that Sevant really hit the nail on the head with his suggestions (well, most of them anyways. I like #2 the best though.)
Umm, thirdly I think, to get back the "atmosphere" of Bast that people say it is now lacking, watch James Cameron's "Alien" a couple times through. It should help out with some new ideas.
Guess I should be ending this nice little... thing. My final suggestion: Give us back the rotating door. (Well, besides the one that's "not completely gone." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I've been playing ns on and off since 1.04 (I think) and I never understood why the original bast had to be changed. I've really enjoyed playing on this new one.
As it is, it's much better than the b5 version. That one was almost always a rout of feedwater. Now, there's much less pressure there, but I still feel feed is dangerously close to MS.
I always find it an interesting change when mapmakers change doubles to singles. (and yes, I refer to it as 'single.' On Hara and other maps like that: "There's 3 marines at single.") It definitely reduces the pressure on a location, and the concept of dropping 2 nodes very close to each other seems kind of simple in hindsight. I've always enjoyed Tanith in that regard, as there are several locations where two nodes are close on the map, easy to siege from one spot, but there's a wall or something between them which makes them harder to defend.
I've never seen anyone except myself use the underwater tunnel. I can't say how, but I believe there must be some way to make it more useful.
I think the north entrance to engine is a little strange, but I can't quite say why. If the engine room were flipped north to south, so the res node were in the north, I'd say putting a double with the second around that corner would be interesting.
The hallway between tram and that ramp-dealie with the res node: If you pulled that over closer to the ramp, or maybe on the hive side of the ramp, with the furnace node closer to it, could also create some interesting situations. Maybe put partitions (like those new pipes in furnace) on either side, so it's in its own cubicle, with possibly a vent behind it. You could get where the aliens have the hive and that half of furnace, marines holding one or both of the nodes, and a lot of crossfire and leaping and fading going on.
The room that the 'single' is in...it seems like such a cool room, I wish it could be more of a focal place for gameplay. It seems like it should be a hive room or something. I know it's not very viable, but it's too bad you can't just swap it with main aft or that new reactor room (Bastman's head).
I, too, favor having a broken catwalk in the water room (forget name, has a resnode, underwater vent to feedwater, and overhead vent to...engine?) Have stairs or something to the res node, but have the catwalk ramp down to the floor on both sides. Have an opening for the floor vent or something too.
Lastly, anyone ever find it strange that the reactor room is in front of the bridge? Seems like strange construction for a spaceship, have all these windows so we can see where we're going, then put a huge chunk of ship in front of it. I've always thought it was a cool room too, and thought it such a shame that it only served as a way to get to other vents. Since it doesn't really go anywhere, almost noone goes through the pit to get to it. Maybe if you put a small platform and a res node down in the pit, and had the other end of the pit go through a hallway into the upper catwalk in furnace...then put the bridge in as the pass-through between 'single' and feedwater.
Or you could do none of those. It's a good map. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I still stand by however that Refinery needs some direct access from the ground to the 2nd platform and/or ceiling to allow aliens to maxise use of space available to them.
Mendasp... i love what you haev done with the map, for the most part....
However i have one qualm which i will try to illustrate below...
Each map has different features, different things that make it the map it is..... Evolution has gotten rid of many of these features on many of the map's....
Veil's feature is the insane symmetry...
When i think of nancy, i think of mess hall and that ladder where we play whack a mole as marines.....
Tanith reminds me of Cargo and Chemical, the two largest chokepoints EVER, and to a lesser extent,,, that vent room in waste where its cool to relocate to...
Nothing reminds me of triple node cargo (gone now) also the dual level design and elevators...(good chokepoints) and REDROOM...
Now.. when i though about bast, what came to mind is 3 things 1. Atmosphere 2. Rotating Door 3. Vents in MS going to Hives...(also engine siegable with TF in ms, sieges in vent)
Bast has retained much of its atmosphere over the ages, and contrary to what you think, this is NOT a post about putting the door back in, i understand why it had to go, even if it was my favorite onos trap ever..... and you left it in the readyroom secret... so its butterss....
My opinion is the vents leading from marine start to below feedwater, double, and engine (that network) were the things that allowed Bast to be bast....
When i commed bast my strategies relied on these vents, not only could marines ninja phase gates like nobodys mother, but aliens could rush into marine start without warning (if a careless marine left a door open....)
The vents are still there, however not acessilble from marine start... my suggestion would be to re-insert them, even if requiring one marine to boost you into them (just because).....
My argument for this is that those vents were what made bast, even more than the rotating door, to a point where bast strategies and tactics relied on those vents, and marines and aliens ability to use them effectively.... Vents of that nature do not exist on any other map, and bast was unique, varied, fun, and a different style of play because of them....
While i agree with moving engine away from MS, and many of your other changes, this is my argument for the vents.......I feel since they were blocked off MS side, it has altered bast's playing strategies immensely, whera's those vent's allowed for many comebacks and different playstyles which were a lot of fun for all......
Anyways MendAsp... thank you for your time, and regardless i still love the map
Comments
(please excuse crappy ASCII art, but the forum removes all of the spaces in the formatting of it.)
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To be honest, I don't think that it would hurt to extend the Engine Corridor down to the Main Aft stairway, maybe with a VIS blocker somewhere down the middle of it resembling the one between EM Drill Shaft and the Observation Bridge.
Nextly, lots of the additions you've made were needed. I realize that the ceiling/floor covering the door in MS was needed for (at least what I can conclude) stuff like lerk-ish camping. After many games of Bast, I noticed that hardly anyone goes to Atmospheric or Feedwater through that route anymore.
Also, please try to find some way to make some usefullness out of the elevators in Main Aft. I love them so. Since the B5 version, I've seen them completely ingored in favor of going around the long way to Refinery from Engine (The slanted lift) and through Engine Corridor to get to Engine or Water Treatment (the vertical lift).
I think that Sevant really hit the nail on the head with his suggestions (well, most of them anyways. I like #2 the best though.)
Umm, thirdly I think, to get back the "atmosphere" of Bast that people say it is now lacking, watch James Cameron's "Alien" a couple times through. It should help out with some new ideas.
Guess I should be ending this nice little... thing. My final suggestion: Give us back the rotating door. (Well, besides the one that's "not completely gone." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
--LMD
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>BAST KICKS ****!</span>
[/CREATIVEINPUT]
As it is, it's much better than the b5 version. That one was almost always a rout of feedwater. Now, there's much less pressure there, but I still feel feed is dangerously close to MS.
I always find it an interesting change when mapmakers change doubles to singles. (and yes, I refer to it as 'single.' On Hara and other maps like that: "There's 3 marines at single.") It definitely reduces the pressure on a location, and the concept of dropping 2 nodes very close to each other seems kind of simple in hindsight. I've always enjoyed Tanith in that regard, as there are several locations where two nodes are close on the map, easy to siege from one spot, but there's a wall or something between them which makes them harder to defend.
I've never seen anyone except myself use the underwater tunnel. I can't say how, but I believe there must be some way to make it more useful.
I think the north entrance to engine is a little strange, but I can't quite say why. If the engine room were flipped north to south, so the res node were in the north, I'd say putting a double with the second around that corner would be interesting.
The hallway between tram and that ramp-dealie with the res node: If you pulled that over closer to the ramp, or maybe on the hive side of the ramp, with the furnace node closer to it, could also create some interesting situations. Maybe put partitions (like those new pipes in furnace) on either side, so it's in its own cubicle, with possibly a vent behind it. You could get where the aliens have the hive and that half of furnace, marines holding one or both of the nodes, and a lot of crossfire and leaping and fading going on.
The room that the 'single' is in...it seems like such a cool room, I wish it could be more of a focal place for gameplay. It seems like it should be a hive room or something. I know it's not very viable, but it's too bad you can't just swap it with main aft or that new reactor room (Bastman's head).
I, too, favor having a broken catwalk in the water room (forget name, has a resnode, underwater vent to feedwater, and overhead vent to...engine?) Have stairs or something to the res node, but have the catwalk ramp down to the floor on both sides. Have an opening for the floor vent or something too.
Lastly, anyone ever find it strange that the reactor room is in front of the bridge? Seems like strange construction for a spaceship, have all these windows so we can see where we're going, then put a huge chunk of ship in front of it. I've always thought it was a cool room too, and thought it such a shame that it only served as a way to get to other vents. Since it doesn't really go anywhere, almost noone goes through the pit to get to it. Maybe if you put a small platform and a res node down in the pit, and had the other end of the pit go through a hallway into the upper catwalk in furnace...then put the bridge in as the pass-through between 'single' and feedwater.
Or you could do none of those. It's a good map. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I still stand by however that Refinery needs some direct access from the ground to the 2nd platform and/or ceiling to allow aliens to maxise use of space available to them.
However i have one qualm which i will try to illustrate below...
Each map has different features, different things that make it the map it is..... Evolution has gotten rid of many of these features on many of the map's....
Veil's feature is the insane symmetry...
When i think of nancy, i think of mess hall and that ladder where we play whack a mole as marines.....
Tanith reminds me of Cargo and Chemical, the two largest chokepoints EVER, and to a lesser extent,,, that vent room in waste where its cool to relocate to...
Nothing reminds me of triple node cargo (gone now) also the dual level design and elevators...(good chokepoints) and REDROOM...
Now.. when i though about bast, what came to mind is 3 things
1. Atmosphere
2. Rotating Door
3. Vents in MS going to Hives...(also engine siegable with TF in ms, sieges in vent)
Bast has retained much of its atmosphere over the ages, and contrary to what you think, this is NOT a post about putting the door back in, i understand why it had to go, even if it was my favorite onos trap ever..... and you left it in the readyroom secret... so its butterss....
My opinion is the vents leading from marine start to below feedwater, double, and engine (that network) were the things that allowed Bast to be bast....
When i commed bast my strategies relied on these vents, not only could marines ninja phase gates like nobodys mother, but aliens could rush into marine start without warning (if a careless marine left a door open....)
The vents are still there, however not acessilble from marine start... my suggestion would be to re-insert them, even if requiring one marine to boost you into them (just because).....
My argument for this is that those vents were what made bast, even more than the rotating door, to a point where bast strategies and tactics relied on those vents, and marines and aliens ability to use them effectively.... Vents of that nature do not exist on any other map, and bast was unique, varied, fun, and a different style of play because of them....
While i agree with moving engine away from MS, and many of your other changes, this is my argument for the vents.......I feel since they were blocked off MS side, it has altered bast's playing strategies immensely, whera's those vent's allowed for many comebacks and different playstyles which were a lot of fun for all......
Anyways MendAsp... thank you for your time, and regardless i still love the map
~Jason
/shameless self-promotion
So many vent relocations, so many ways to sneak into a hive.