Noob Mapper - Critique

hjdukhjduk Join Date: 2005-03-03 Member: 43092Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">ns_gothic</div> Hi, im fairly new to mapping, but I was thinking about making a map for NS, to make things easier I might end up making this a CO map.
Could you crit on the style more than the layout ATM - the level design isnt finished but I wanted to start on the structural ideas to see if its practical / possible.
What do you think?

Cheers, hjd_uk.

<a href='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth.zip' target='_blank'>Map, Wad and Env (Zip)</a>

<img src='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth_030000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth_030002.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth_030004.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth_030006.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
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Comments

  • SpacerSpacer Invented dogs Join Date: 2003-05-02 Member: 16008Members
    The hive looks really plain, but I'm loving that architecture in the marine start, even if it'll kill off gameplay. What about having a stronger green light come from that glass window? And perhaps put a couple of red lights around too.
  • Steel_TrollSteel_Troll Join Date: 2004-02-12 Member: 26455Members
    Wow. Probably wont play too well, but has lovely wow effect of most cathedrals...
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    Arhcitecture and concept is unique and original. Granted it will not play well and the lighting is lacking, for what looks like a first attempt it is rather good.
  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
    edited March 2005
    The first two shots remind me of HR Giger stuff, which is cool. I wasn't so impressed with the last two. Try using the style you used in the first two as a base for a map, i think it looks damn original.

    [edit] Also maybe work on the lighting, its quite plain at the moment.
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members
    Most definitely keep the style of the marines start. Very cool architecture there. The hive....it looks like you kinda got bored when doing the hive. Get rid of the water; there's no water in cathedrals. And see if you can get an infested texture that matches the 'normal' walls of ms.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Nice architecture that... But the light needs more attention, for example make use of shadows near the top, and spots to light up areas you want to show of. Also that green light idea comming in from the window from Spacer would spice it up quite a lot. The hive needs more infestation...

    I can see it now!!! The divebombing skulk is back <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • AlcapwnAlcapwn &quot;War is the science of destruction&quot; - John Abbot Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17590Members
    Wow, if your new, then thats pretty good. Lighting is a little bland though.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    Personally, I'd double the size of the marine start for playability reasons. I'd keep the same shape though, its awesome. As others have said, work on your lighting. It looks like it would be great with some strong yellow/white lights around mid height, with red accents in the upper reaches, but that's just my idea for it.
  • BanzaiBanzai Join Date: 2004-10-19 Member: 32355Members
    Its Future-Gothic, awesome. Definetly keep the style, its very unique.
    Getting it to work with gameplay will be the hard part. I can't wait to see what
    you make once you get more experience.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    edited March 2005
    This is an incredible start for a new mapper. Puts anything I have done so far to shame.

    Like said before, I would take out the hard green colors in the water and the window skybox and stick to the harsh dark greys and blacks, they really maintain the feel of the map.

    If you really want to use green lights I would use much darker shades then you are right now, other wize I would just stick with the harsh white and gray lights, they maintain the feel of the map much better.

    The green water just looks gross and totally out of the feel of the first picture. If you are determined to keep water I would use a dark or gray texture for it.

    One suggestion I would like to make, for the hive infestation, copy the feel of areas like refinary hive on bast or furnace on origin. Use harsh red colors to really hammer in the gothic riligeous mythological heaven VS hell environment. This map retains the feel of a futuristic structure simply with the all metal played walls. Ditch the green light panels, they just don't follow the flow and aren't nessicary to retain the futuristic feel and story location.

    [edit] looking at the screenshots some more, I have to agree with the comments others have made. Keep the feel but you are going to need to expand the dimentions of MS to make the gameplay aspect work.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited March 2005
    It's a really cool-looking custom map, but it's seriously not fitting the Ns atmosphere.
    The kind of map that could get a 10/10 rating from the dev team and still not be included as an official map...

    EDIT: Also, why is there a pit of infestation under the command chair?
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    edited March 2005
    I'd make a new MS because I think the existing architecture is fine there for a right/left turning corridor in the map (with two alcoves on the outside edge of the corner).

    The gothic style gives it a very unique feel, and the extra vertical element could even be used to help Aliens if you made it super dark at the very top and graduating the light sensibly. By sensibly, I mean that the Aliens should have to be easily visible before they are within range to leap/blink at the Marines with lightning speed.

    An alternate option would be to have the top reasonably well-lit, with a grating upon which Aliens could go to heal/egg/or just Parasite (make sure that you can shoot through it and that the Aliens can be seen if you take the time to look up though).

    You could keep the style going and put in a bigger area with pillars to hide behind. It might be nice to put the CC in an apse and the two Armouries in the lectern/pulpit (although the latter might make them too inaccessible).

    If you are gonna give it a cathedral style, then check out this link to help you with the naming scheme for the map:

    <a href='http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/architecture.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/architecture.htm</a>

    P.S. An undercroft would be pretty kewl. You could even have a shrine to some dead, great leader. A breakaway group of religious radicals who decided to bring back the teachings of the Bible have constructed this place as a sanctum for its teachings, but -uho- Khaara attaaaack!!!

    And here's where we cue the music <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    [Edit]Technically the lectern and pulpit are not the same thing.
  • hjdukhjduk Join Date: 2005-03-03 Member: 43092Members, Constellation
    Hi, thanks for the replys everyone - lots of encouraging and useful comments.
    The hive roon was a quick doodle, just throwing blocks together - it was crap - no movement flow.

    Ive spent some time on it today, found the light_environment entity - nice - the shadows cast by the window support arces really come out well. The marines now have a room to call their own, not just a crossroads / T-junction.

    Whadya think?

    PS: Crispy - I was aiming towards a 'sepritist' kind of community as the late occupants of the facility / complex / building - not a religious sect but more of a notion that; *deep breath*- due to the huge expansion of humanity across the galaxy, the isolation of groups leads to a re-diversification of cultures. Every social group that exists would / could end up expanding & coalessing into entire planetary communities. So that bascially means lots of groups that exist now could end up being entire nations or cutlures in the NS universe. Hence NS_Goth.(heheh how about NS_vally_girl or NS_hiphop) Plus not every space colony would be pre-fab space-corps hab-module stuff.

    Now im thinking of it though I like the idea of a space-colony being made up of religous types - theyre the only ones feverent (naive?) enough to go into the unknown and set up on some unexplored world.
    (re minds me of the puritans sailing for hte new-world lol ) - No offense <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    <img src='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth_040000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
    <img src='http://www.henrydurrant.co.uk/stuff/ns_goth_040002.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
  • cariocacarioca Join Date: 2003-09-02 Member: 20511Members
    <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> thsi ms doesnt look like a sraight and small for a full place for ns structures and where is the res node?
    the light is very better the darkness give some nice feature to aliens hide but is so open u can aim that one easy but fade and lerks could be a pain , but onos cant run well in this close area making marines ms better.
    so in final i say the onos cant fight but marines can save their bse so a far long game will be thre in this fightining with fades and lerk flying maybe leapers but no onos will be very hard against 3 hives fades acid rocketing every stuff and lerks clouding all ms and blocked onos in the halls and skulkies falling in your heads.
  • Lt.RealnessLt.Realness Join Date: 2004-03-17 Member: 27379Members
    I don't really like the map. the rooms (if you can say rooms here) are way too big! the colors are also very monotone. it's not a logical place for the Kharaa to live <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    but it's a funmap I think. If you like it, it's okay because it's your own map
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    edited March 2005
    [EDIT] Carioca is right, node should be added. Armory should not be there by default, that is only for combat maps.

    Looking alot better for gameplay. Lighting slightly improved, however the marine spawn should not be so dark. Also some slightly misaligned textures on the supports near the ceiling.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    I still think it could use some subtle accent lighting, but man, you've really got something going there!
  • BelgarionBelgarion Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 973Members
    yeah, those high ceilings really do it for me. the MS looks fantastic, but as others have pointed out, it's too dark for gameplay reasons. Keep working at it though. It would be a shame to let this fall by the wayside as most maps do.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-Belgarion+Mar 24 2005, 03:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Belgarion @ Mar 24 2005, 03:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yeah, those high ceilings really do it for me. the MS looks fantastic, but as others have pointed out, it's too dark for gameplay reasons. Keep working at it though. It would be a shame to let this fall by the wayside as most maps do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Posts like these always make me go o.O when I can see the screenshots just fine with no brightness issues at all (everything in windows at standart settings).

    On the crt's on college I'd probably would have trouble seeing the new screenshots though. Well that's it... I just need to get myself a crt, this tft is just way to good <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • TheDestroyerTheDestroyer Tooobah Join Date: 2003-07-12 Member: 18123Members, Constellation
    I like the architexture...it gives me that City 17 Citadel feel. The corners of the walls when climbing them, stopped me at times, but I was able to adapt.

    I felt somewhat depressed while playing it...I guess its the darkness of it. I LOVE that feeling...let those marines think that it is hopeless! Mwahahaha!

    Oh, and I was working with a simular lighting fixture. Yours looks better.
  • Lt_GravityLt_Gravity Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Members
    the gothic look doesnt fit ns 100% but personally I like it very much, has the nice "warhammer 40k" feeling to it.

    for a beginer its a very nice piece of work. only thing I would remark here is the lightning. make it more colorful and people will love you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    Am I the only one who really doesn't like the skybox?
  • hjdukhjduk Join Date: 2005-03-03 Member: 43092Members, Constellation
    Thanks for the comments guys:

    The armoury in the example map is just temporary, this is WIP - nowhere near a beta release.
    The skybox was a quick temp one done to see if I could do one. Ill probably do another one later ( needs to be darker ?)
    For some reason skulks get stuck when trying to move from an overhang to a straigt vertical wall - ive posted a bug report about it.
    The lighting will come later, just trying to get the structures and spaces sorted out 1st.

    The place is going to be a start-up colony (on a titan like planet - ice and hydrocarbons) with some ice-water,frozen methane, excavation stuff going on in the cellars etc and there will be technology aparent when im finished.

    NS universe script:
    The facility produces lots of resources for trade with other systems and organisations - when contact was lost the TSA sent in the rhines - significant dollar value attached etc <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
  • MythoNMythoN Join Date: 2005-03-20 Member: 45888Members
    *stares at pics* <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Looking nice. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Keep up the good work!! Seems like people can do some skulk divebombing on this map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • MerkabaMerkaba Digital Harmony Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 22Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    Hurrah! (Merkaba cheers for unique architecture)
  • MerkabaMerkaba Digital Harmony Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 22Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    hjduk, the getting stuck on the wall problem is nothing to do with Natural Selection, but rather the way you have constructed the wall (and the way the compile tools create clipnodes).

    To prevent that from happening, you should have the underhang <b>part of the same brush</b> as the wall above it. This will create a smooth flowing set of clipnodes which you can freely walk across. Compiling CSG with '-cliptype precise' might fix this as well, but I am not entirely sure about that.

    The same principle applies for -all- angled brushes like that, and can be noticed frequently in HL maps (getting caught on corners <90 degrees being the most obvious example).
  • hjdukhjduk Join Date: 2005-03-03 Member: 43092Members, Constellation
    Aha, thanks, Merkaba - ill try that.
  • c_omac_oma Join Date: 2004-06-20 Member: 29425Members
    first of all -- wow! i'm stunned! this is absolutely looking gorge-ous!

    i think this is exactly what ns needs at the moment, somehing new, fresh, different... i like it when every map needs a completely different strategy! jetpacks would be really good here, and fades have a lot of room to blink around. maybe you can add some more cover for the skulks here an there, maybe things like "confession boxes" and reliquary stands and whatnot.
  • TatzTatz Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31375Members
    omg!!11yar stole my idea!!111

    ...Yes i had the idea of an map like this...but i dropped it...(yours better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
  • MalevolentMalevolent Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18842Members
    The architecture is quite impressive. I think it looks awesome. I definitely hope you go all the way on this and optimize it.
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