Illegal Immigration To America
reasa
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">The Problem of Latin America</div> Time to turn our heads from Terri and Jackson and take a peek at what a real problem looks like...shall we?
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1182&c=13' target='_blank'>http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCent...fm?ID=1182&c=13</a>
<a href='http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Illegals.htm' target='_blank'>http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/s...cs/Illegals.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b30c0535a05.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b30c0535a05.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8' target='_blank'>http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8</a>
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1190&c=13' target='_blank'>http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCent...fm?ID=1190&c=13</a>
Most Americans agree it is a big problem and something needs to be done:
<a href='http://www.npg.org/factsheets/imm_americans_spoken.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npg.org/factsheets/imm_americans_spoken.html</a>
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1167&c=2' target='_blank'>http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1167&c=2</a>
So I think it's clear where I stand, how do you feel about this issue and what do you think should be done?
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1182&c=13' target='_blank'>http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCent...fm?ID=1182&c=13</a>
<a href='http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Illegals.htm' target='_blank'>http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/s...cs/Illegals.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b30c0535a05.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b30c0535a05.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8' target='_blank'>http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8</a>
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1190&c=13' target='_blank'>http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCent...fm?ID=1190&c=13</a>
Most Americans agree it is a big problem and something needs to be done:
<a href='http://www.npg.org/factsheets/imm_americans_spoken.html' target='_blank'>http://www.npg.org/factsheets/imm_americans_spoken.html</a>
<a href='http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1167&c=2' target='_blank'>http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1167&c=2</a>
So I think it's clear where I stand, how do you feel about this issue and what do you think should be done?
Comments
I've not gotten jobs before due to illegals coming in willing to do the same job for much less than it's worth, and it sucks.
I say, enforce the laws better, and make companies pay them the same wages, that way, they have no incentive to hire anyone else that will do the job for that much less.
Yes because Maddox is certainly the voice of reason upon which American laws should be baised. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Protecting the border with Mexico is just a matter of using the National Guard from the Border States to do what the name of its branch implies and guard the nation. They have the men and the resources, especially if they were federalized, to do the task. Why hasn’t this been done?
It's not a matter of them taking our jobs; it’s a matter of them systematically destroying our economy. Read the TIME magazine feature on it for an unbiased look at how illegal immigration is destroying whole towns, shutting down hospitals and draining social welfare. You want to save Social Security? Stop giving money to illegal immigrants, we’ll save millions annually. Not to mention they aren't exactly integrating into American society very well, but why should they, we bend over backwards to accommodate them.
Okay... calming down...
I'm really glad all these people can come over to seek a better life, but why can't they do it the legal way? Why must everyone else but them go through the system, but they do not. Are they above the system? Are they better than my family? Who do they think they are? Your farm is failing and you are running out of money and you want a better life, eh? Guess what I probably have 30 aunts and uncles in the same position but they can't do what <i>you</i> are planning to do, sir immigrant. Neigh not can't, <b>won't</b>, because they have respect for the system.
**EDIT**
GOD I'M SO FRUSTRATED BY THIS STUFF. Being a firstgen american, you come to realize just how privledged you are to be "here" rather than "there". Don't get me wrong I love the homeland. Massive coffee plantations with a wondrous breeze, a brilliant blue sky and cliffsides where if you stand and look at the sunset you feel as if the horizon goes on for eternity. But the sociological "life chances" here are so much better. Watching my cousins struggle to come here though, is not. Not when others do not.
Okay... calming down...
I'm really glad all these people can come over to seek a better life, but why can't they do it the legal way? Why must everyone else but them go through the system, but they do not. Are they above the system? Are they better than my family? Who do they think they are? Your farm is failing and you are running out of money and you want a better life, eh? Guess what I probably have 30 aunts and uncles in the same position but they can't do what <i>you</i> are planning to do, sir immigrant. Neigh not can't, <b>won't</b>, because they have respect for the system. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You bring up the strongest point against Illegal Immigration Cold Nite, almost all Hispanic-Americans who go through the system the legal way and become full fledged American citizens hate and despise the illegal’s more then natural Americans do.
I can't imagine the frustration.
What bothers me so much about this issue is that most Americans are aware of it and know something needs to be done, but when it comes time to act, they do nothing. Why don't we see a greater push towards reform in this area? This needs to be the "make or break" issue for people when election time roles around.
We need to demand reform or nothing well be done.
I can't imagine the frustration.
What bothers me so much about this issue is that most Americans are aware of it and know something needs to be done, but when it comes time to act, they do nothing. Why don't we see a greater push towards reform in this area? This needs to be the "make or break" issue for people when election time roles around.
We need to demand reform or nothing well be done. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yeah, had plenty of arguments on account of this one. And some fights. I'll just have to put my faith into the politicians on this issue... *nervous laugh*.
But I'll tell you this much. For all you arguing for <b>their</b> side. Understand also that this is a respect issue. You support them, you disrespect us. You disrespect the work my mother and father had to do to get here. It wasn't some damn walk in the park. There was no fence jumping, no stowing away, nothing of the damned sort. So don't slap us in the face, eh?
At least the hmong immigrants (given the oppurtunity through various United States political decisions) try to integrate into the society openly. While many of them could speak Hmong in school, they only did it occasionally between themselves and openly tried to learn English. I saw so such action from the various latin students...so far seperate, in fact, that school monitors and teachers were given lists of Spanish phrases to understand when they were talking bad, and to converse with them to get them to class and stuff.
Much of the school budget was spent on ESL classes, which should really be a community based issue; since <a href='http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/require.htm' target='_blank'>the official naturalization requirements</a> specifically state:
<!--QuoteBegin-on language+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (on language)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And somehow, I doubt the children's parents speak better English. Let alone that they would be able to pass a naturalization test (bah, I even know natural born citizens that wouldn't - <a href='http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/require.htm' target='_blank'>sample tests abound</a>).
I can understand if they want to live in the country; I would even be willing to allow unrestricuted numbers of immigrants - if they passed through the naturalization process.
Immigration boosts the economy, by taking jobs that no one else will take (how many people do you know who will take a minimum wage job as a janitor), reducing the cost of goods and services for everyone. They also boost the economy of their home country, by sending back thousands of dollars. Most immigrants are law-abiding citizens (apart from immigrating illegally), because they don't want to be sent back. Often, they don't even break the speed limit.
Yes, it does suck for people who lose their job because of an illegal immigrant. If we had a decent social welfare net, then those people would only be screwed a little bit, especially compared to those illegal immigrants who were so screwed back in their home countries, that they immigrated.
Talk to anyone whose grandparents immigrated here. It's doubtful that they even speak the language their grandparents did or even have very many of their old customs. Many immigrants integrate, most children of immigrants integrate, and all grandchildren of immigrants integrate.
Is there even any good way to stop illegal immigration? How can you even secure a border as long as our border with Mexico and the entirety of the Gulf of Mexico, without spending a huge amount of money? Is it even worth it? There are so many other, better things that we could be spending money on. The best way of reducing illegal immigration is to strengthen the economies of the immigrants' home countries, so they don't even want to immigrate in the first place.
What would you do about illegal immigrants that are currently residing here in the US? If you deport them, then you'll leave their children behind, who are US citizens because they were born here. They'll often be sent back to a country that they hadn't seen in years, to an area of that country where they had never been before.
It's not that simple though. A job is a job.. be it at Target, Wal-Mart, the local roofing company, or a city job.
<span style='color:white'>Completely wrong rendition of the situation. Read other poster's points.</span>
I'm Chinese, legal immigrant turned citizen two years ago, and I truly welcome all the immigrants that come into this country with a strong work ethic. And Georgia isn't that far from the border, there are PLENTY of people here who are Mexicans working for minimum wage or less and doing a damn fine job of keeping lawns clean for less.
I say we ban immigration quotas outright. Subsidize bus fare for all Mexicans willing to come here, put them through the checkpoints and get them on their way to get citizenship. This way, you weed out all the drug smugglers because if most of the people wanting to work for minimum wage jobs go by bus, who's going to cross the border? That's right, the cartels. It becomes easier to choke the influx of drugs coming into this country because it's easier to patrol the borders.
Immigrants made this country; they also maintain it.
Immigrants made this country; they also maintain it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't subsidize immigration or even completely open the borders. The disparity between the wealth of America and the poverty of third world nations is too large. Our economy can't support too many immigrants. Their economy can't support a huge loss of population. How many people do you think would come per year? 1 million? 10 million? 100 million?
I'm pro-immigration, but let's be realistic here.
Personnally.. I could have gone in to detail surrounding my own experiences to give people reading this thread one more(personal)perspective on the topic at hand, but I felt I had more important things to do than argue over the net with people who disregard the forums' rules for a halfway decent topic..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see there is a huge difference between this new Hispanic immigration and the immigration of old from Europe and Asia. My grandfather could not simply walk across the Mexican border unimpeded, settle in a low income housing area, have a child with my grandmother and boom, instant citizenship and up to 200,000$ from the US government. The beauty of "anchor babies".
<span style='color:white'>Snip. And be nice.</span> Try to follow me on this one...
Illegal Immigrants have broken American law and are not members of this country; they are not entitled to ANY job for ANY wages over ANY American citizen, EVER. They should not be here; they should not be part of the system.
If you force companies to pay minimum wage, and start penalizing them heavily (read: enforcing the damn law) they will hire American citizens who will work at a job which they can now make a living off of. Very simple…
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm Chinese, legal immigrant turned citizen two years ago, and I truly welcome all the immigrants that come into this country with a strong work ethic. And Georgia isn't that far from the border, there are PLENTY of people here who are Mexicans working for minimum wage or less and doing a damn fine job of keeping lawns clean for less.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thankfully because of the Pacific Ocean we do not have millions of Chinese flooding into America every year...the problem is not their willingness to work, it is that we can not sustain their sheer numbers. And (to be generous) for every 2 Mexicans that come here to work, you have 1 who will do nothing but live off social welfare in a shared home in some random rural town/city, and I know this to be true from first hand experiences.
Those people paying the Mexicans less then minimum wage should be fined for unethical practices, and then arrested for hiring an illegal, if that is the case. Just because you are used to the way of things does not make it right, once a few examples have been made people will wise up quickly. This sounds too much like slavery to me...people in the south never thought that would change ether...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say we ban immigration quotas outright. Subsidize bus fare for all Mexicans willing to come here, put them through the checkpoints and get them on their way to get citizenship. This way, you weed out all the drug smugglers because if most of the people wanting to work for minimum wage jobs go by bus, who's going to cross the border? That's right, the cartels. It becomes easier to choke the influx of drugs coming into this country because it's easier to patrol the borders.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes...brilliant idea. Not only would this be a major lapse in security...oh God I can see it now...American tax payers paying the bus fare for the terrorists who launch the next 9/11...the irony value alone would make me, if I were a terrorist, want to try it. Overpopulation would rapidly become a major problem and Mexico would collapse more then it already has...why should we allow them to push their problems on us?
America is like a giant welfare system for the country of Mexico.
Can we even gauge the effect on the economy of millions of Mexicans slowly but surely taking money out of our system and sending it back to Mexico...how many illegal aliens pay taxes...hmmm I wonder. This will devastate our economy in the long run, any fool can see this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Immigrants made this country; they also maintain it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was true in the past; unfortunately people like you have a hard time seeing the real problem here because you fail to realize how different this is from previous, much more controlled, waves of immigration.
Hah, Nativist my ***. My family immigrated the fair way and I'll be damned if I just sit and smile as someone else gets to come in without bothering to
<b>A.)</b> Learn the language.
<b>B.)</b> Pay up and do it legally. Even if it costs you a lot of money.
<b>C.)</b> Respect the country you are going into.
<b>D.)</b> Respect the laws <i>of</i> that country.
We did it. Hell, your family did it. Why shouldn't they? You think it's okay to break laws or something?
I'm also a staunch libertarian. I really dislike any government program that enables people to leech off said government and still live a reasonable life. Okay, maybe completely loosening off immigraiton laws would be disastrous and economically subversive, I still believe that we should relax them substantially.
At most, the vast majority of Mexican immigrants break one law, illegal entry into this country. But still, we have to consider that we're not treating everybody equally. Take Cuba for instance, it's illegal for any Cuban to come to our shores. But once they are there, we grant them citizenship and asylum on the spot. That's hardly fair, but I don't see you complaining about illegal immigrants from Cuba.
The law is a ridiculous one. It's essentially a victimless law against an industrious person who's willing to work for starving wages in another country.
I don't care what YOUR family did. The law is blind from sob stories both yours and mine, but in this particular case, we have a stupid law. Laws can be made, but they can also be revised and changed.
Oh, and Cold NiTe, the first generation immigrants won't learn the language. The second generation will definitely be tied down into American culture and learn a mix of their language and English. You focus too much on the first generation, and not the ones to follow. Such was the case in our rather disturbingly shameful past, such is the case now.
Is it possible that Russia and Europe and America have had something to do with turning their countries of origin into warzones, wastelands, nuclear test sites and poverty ridden slave states?
Who speaks for the Aleut and the Ogoni?
Share the wealth or you'll end up sharing you country.
You don't like it, fight for it, there are plenty of organisations that offer membership to people who take that kind of approach.
Is it possible that Russia and Europe and America have had something to do with turning their countries of origin into warzones, wastelands, nuclear test sites and poverty ridden slave states?
Who speaks for the Aleut and the Ogoni?
Share the wealth or you'll end up sharing you country.
You don't like it, fight for it, there are plenty of organisations that offer membership to people who take that kind of approach. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure where I follow you on this one.
We haven't turned Mexico into a wasteland or launched nukes and it hasn't been a wasteland since we got Texas from them.
Hell the worst warzoned latin nations are in Central America and that's all infighting from Anti-Government guerillas.
Russia tested nukes in siberia not in the middle of Warsaw or Chechnya like you're making them out to doing. And irregardless I've met a great deal of Eastern Europeans who recently became citizens or are on the way to becoming one and they too detest illegal immigrants. Also Eastern Europe is finally getting back on its feet after spending the better half of last century invaded blown up and oppressed.
And Europe? The only really active country for nuclear testing was France and they did that in the middle of the polynesians until they ya know
Murdered those greenpeace guys WOOPS
Me I support heavily limiting immigration. My greatgrand parents come from Poland and Germany respectively. THE LEGAL WAY. And I believe everyone should do the same. As for the Cuban thing. I do believe people caught trying to escape are treated rather harshly when they're returned to Cuba.
Call me rascist or bigoted or what have you
But I'm am tired for practically being forced to learn spanish because these people jump the damn border and decide to become a citizen with none of the friggin responsibility. THEY DON'T EVEN TRY TO SPEAK IT. Atleast my german/czech friends try and I help them out with the verbage but the other ingrates don't bother. They just jump the border push out a child and become another drain on the Economy.
Just round up all the illegals with the Natl. Guard. Toss them into some trucks and deposit them back in their country. Also they need to ammend some of the laws like this anchor baby garbage
I hope you realize that we had open borders when your great grandparents came over. There was no illegal way to immigrate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I'm am tired for practically being forced to learn spanish because these people jump the damn border and decide to become a citizen with none of the friggin responsibility. THEY DON'T EVEN TRY TO SPEAK IT. Atleast my german/czech friends try and I help them out with the verbage but the other ingrates don't bother. They just jump the border push out a child and become another drain on the Economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your great grandparents or some of their friends probably didn't speak any English. But their kids did. These days, the kids of Mexican immigrants speak English. They will integrate fine, just like your family eventually completely integrated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just round up all the illegals with the Natl. Guard. Toss them into some trucks and deposit them back in their country. Also they need to ammend some of the laws like this anchor baby garbage<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't do stuff like this. It doesn't work at all. It's like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. Illegal immigrants will keep on coming. What you need to do, to reduce immigration, is to treat the cause of the problem, not the symptoms. That means helping the third world economically. If Mexico, or El Salvador, or Nigeria, or wherever, is a nice place to live, then people won't try to illegally come to the US.
Rapier, that now heavily edited contribution on page one was your first strike.
Otherwise, I'd like to congratulate most of you for staying very calm, though I'd like to point Cold Nite at the rule asking everyone to keep the discussion rational, and would like to point out to reasa that 'firsthand experience' and a statistical remark don't mix <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Riddle me this, what harm are the "illegal immigrants" doing in wanting to migrate to the US?
Riddle me this, what harm are the "illegal immigrants" doing in wanting to migrate to the US? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be because as they come to work, they receive equal pay (for the most part) This angers corporate entities and therefore they outsource the job, now we have a larger load on unemployment/welfare.
Riddle me this, what harm are the "illegal immigrants" doing in wanting to migrate to the US? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be because as they come to work, they receive equal pay (for the most part) This angers corporate entities and therefore they outsource the job, now we have a larger load on unemployment/welfare. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? How would that anger corporate entities? Illegal immigrants generally take low paying or minimum wage jobs meaning that corporate entities have a solid pool of people to hire low wage workers from. More people in the labor market also means that the the average wages will go down.
Illegal immigration hurts people who are trying to compete for the jobs that illegal immigrants want. It helps corporations.
The basic problem is that any immigrant will equal an initial investment for the national economy.
Put very generally, you suddenly have a person who did so far not contribute to that nation's economy using services (from schools over streets to social security) that were paid for by a number of people smaller than the one now actually taking part. This tends to alleviate as time goes by since the immigrant begins to take part in the national economic cycle, but if you have extreme amounts of immigration, and the current divide between first and third world paired with contemporary transportation technology (both of which can be partly blamed on the US) leads to just this, your economy will essentially be swamped with yearly initial investments that might pay off in the long run, but which it can just not hold up <i>right now</i>.
Thus, a throttled immigration makes sense. How throttled, exactly, is of course up for debate.
(Edited to make sense.)
Instant gratification in this sort of sense encourages stagnation, because there isn't incentive to do better than the other guy, not by much, in any case. And a large pool of semi-skilled labor, as we've seen most notably in Great Britain's and America's past drives prices down while also driving wages down. In the long run, as Nemesis Zero said, it pays off because we've got a solid base of economy (more people=more demand) and still have a drive to be better than the other guy, but if you start imposing ridiculous things such as throttling immigration, you start losing the principles that founded this nation, and when you talk about respect, you should respect the framers of our Constitution.
Oh, and Nemesis Zero, please tell me why third world countries can partially blame the United States for their economic plight while you conveniently ignore Europe, seeing as they colonized the greater part of the third world countries to strip them of their resources and then close shop once they couldn't hold them anymore.
Finally, lots of immigration is good for any country, as there is a storm, there is also a calm. The Gilded Age of America was mostly horrible for the average unskilled worker, but it laid the basis for a strong industrial economy that was able to eventually lead to progressive reform in addition to having a strong economy.
Oh, and for the leechers of government services...let's think about it. You want the government to step in and fund more taxpayer money into stopping the immigrants, yet you complain about how immigrants can leech off of our governmnet. That seems pretty ironic to me, as the same thing is achieved (spending taxpayer dollars) yet we still don't have that immigrant working in the fields of California for a buck fifty an hour.
For mexico - I blame its own governments shortcomings that are giving it an economic drain. If you establish a base that allows economic growth, America is more than willing to help you out in that endevour.
People come over here to get what they don't have over there. So how do you solve that problem - create an environment where they can have what they want - over there. Can America create that environment? - without forcibly taking over Mexico - NO.