Marine Wins Are Waay Too Rare
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's the fades!</div> Anyone else notice that marines are just getting crushed time and time again? Occasionally a well organized team with a good comm will beat a noob alien team... but that doesn't happen very often. And in co, same thing! Sure we don't have stalemates, instead we have constant alien victories!
We don't even need onos as game enders anymore. It's the fades. They never die. As soon as a fade pops up, it's gg. They take down all your rts. The shotgun squad the smart comm sends out soon gets killed by the fade and his posse of 2 skulks. And then another fade appears, never dies, kills rts. And then another. And then it's game.
The other thing is ocs. They're much more effective than turrets for the same amount of res. And it's much easier to heal ocs than to weld turrets. Welding marines are one of the most vulnerable things in the whole game, but healing gorges can easily take cover behind his oc (ocs).
We don't even need onos as game enders anymore. It's the fades. They never die. As soon as a fade pops up, it's gg. They take down all your rts. The shotgun squad the smart comm sends out soon gets killed by the fade and his posse of 2 skulks. And then another fade appears, never dies, kills rts. And then another. And then it's game.
The other thing is ocs. They're much more effective than turrets for the same amount of res. And it's much easier to heal ocs than to weld turrets. Welding marines are one of the most vulnerable things in the whole game, but healing gorges can easily take cover behind his oc (ocs).
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Comments
Shoving my overinflated ego aside, I do think I'm a good commander and know strategy in NS pretty well, but the aliens are just simply too strong. There have been MANY a time where I've shotty rushed (it's funny now, I don't bother to siege anymore, it's just shotty rush and bacon until I win, the old Soviet Russia tactic) their second hive down only for them to put it back up. And it gets harder and harder every time up to the point where we can't take it down, and they have three hives and we lose.
Skulks are strong, lerks are a headache, an absolute headache, fades refuse to die. This isn't a good combination.
Marines got nothing except for some cheaper structures (which, by the way, I couldn't give a flying **** about, since it doesn't really make my A1 first strategy any faster at all), and a phase gate nerf, while aliens have some insane buffs.
If you want to keep the skulks the way they are (which I think they're great, since most pubbers just skulk and gorge), I'd suggest nerfing the lerk, or boosting the marines a bit more.
2 shotgunners can kill a fade in a matter of seconds, but the vast majority of people that play on public servers cannot aim sufficiently well to do so.
As ever, one cannot balance a game around such variation in skill level.
Even in CAL, aliens are walking all over the marines. And two shotgunners CAN kill a fade in less than one second, but even amongst clans, you don't see that happening.
Buff marines, or nerf aliens.
let's continue to beat a dead horse
i think fades are a bit to powerful but the real problem is the rate (not to mention the hit box exploiting).
i think we could change the fade so the rate does not come into play as much, but i fear that it will move them away from the NS feel.
cheeper and weaker is all i can think of.
It used to be about the second hive but not anymore.
An example: Lets say that the 2 first fades for one reason or another get owned (unlucky, stupid, newbie, whatever). Then all of a sudden the aliens are in big trouble. No fades and a squad of rines equipped with shotguns. No one can fade because one player spent all his res on hive, another on chambers and the rest on RTs and maybe a lerk or two.
So maybe the fade is too powerful, but it´s also really really important to khaara. Dead early-mid game fade often spell the end for aliens. I think there is more to it than just a simple nerf-buff.
Btw Rapier7
You might have noticed that if we manage to get a few fades during our hive rush we usually pull it off (yes I have had you for comm several times on NSArmslab)
i think fades are a bit to powerful but the real problem is the rate (not to mention the hit box exploiting).
i think we could change the fade so the rate does not come into play as much, but i fear that it will move them away from the NS feel.
cheeper and weaker is all i can think of. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
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It IS skill based and it always will be same for any game. A Heavy vs a Fade will or should always win if he has a shotgun and I have yet to see an onos beat a jet packer with a shotgun in an open room.
What am I saying, you ask? It's simple marines dominate, Range > melee, jetpacks > onos, heavy > everything else.
Remember the marines are supposed to work together if they do they have a 90% chance of winning. Aliens tend to run around and get kills so they can get res for themselves which is perfectly fine but a rambo fade isn't going to beat a group of marines that co-ordinate their fire.
WTH the is wrong with you! That is sick and wrong!
but on another matter, join another server and another and another until you realise that marine wins do happen often.
Correction... 2 shotgunners can kill a fade that's STANDING STILL in a matter of seconds...
but who ever sees a fade that stands still?
I'd like to add that fades can regenerate their health at a riddiculous rate by combining regen and meta, and possibly a blink back to the hive/to dcs/to a gorge (or a combination of the three!). Fades are coming back at you with full health before you've even finished reloading! Just a slight nerf is needed here, otherwise as a fade you'd blink in, one hit, blink out before you die, and then wait forever to get back in action.
Another point: The best way to kill a fade is to block him yes... and it actually can work pretty well. But if the fade has friends with him, it falls apart. You aim for the guy who's trying to eat you, not the one running away. And if you DO aim for the fade that's running instead of the skulk at your ankles, you die before you can get enough shots in.
and yeah aliens are strong(er).
It IS skill based and it always will be same for any game. A Heavy vs a Fade will or should always win if he has a shotgun and I have yet to see an onos beat a jet packer with a shotgun in an open room.
What am I saying, you ask? It's simple marines dominate, Range > melee, jetpacks > onos, heavy > everything else.
Remember the marines are supposed to work together if they do they have a 90% chance of winning. Aliens tend to run around and get kills so they can get res for themselves which is perfectly fine but a rambo fade isn't going to beat a group of marines that co-ordinate their fire. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades slaughter solo heavies. Onos will usually win against a solo jetpacker, unless the ceiling is very high and even then, the jetpacker only wins if he started out with full fuel.
You say that the marines win 90% of the time if they use teamwork. Remember, the aliens can use teamwork, as well.
In my experiences, I see a 60-70% alien win rate. If Fades were weaker and cheaper, then the win rate would go down AND the aliens would be less dependant on a single player/lifeform, which is a good thing.
Shoving my overinflated ego aside, I do think I'm a good commander and know strategy in NS pretty well, but the aliens are just simply too strong. There have been MANY a time where I've shotty rushed (it's funny now, I don't bother to siege anymore, it's just shotty rush and bacon until I win, the old Soviet Russia tactic) their second hive down only for them to put it back up. And it gets harder and harder every time up to the point where we can't take it down, and they have three hives and we lose.
Skulks are strong, lerks are a headache, an absolute headache, fades refuse to die. This isn't a good combination.
Marines got nothing except for some cheaper structures (which, by the way, I couldn't give a flying **** about, since it doesn't really make my A1 first strategy any faster at all), and a phase gate nerf, while aliens have some insane buffs.
If you want to keep the skulks the way they are (which I think they're great, since most pubbers just skulk and gorge), I'd suggest nerfing the lerk, or boosting the marines a bit more. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not the only comm that I've seen having a hard time in 3.0F. You're still playing as if it were beta 5, learn to adapt to the changes instead of whining about them.
If your marines actually listen to you in a pub, you should win about 60% of the games you comm. This is because rarely, if ever, do alien pubbers play as a team.
As to alien class balances, the only thing that REALLY changed is that skulks get free upgrades. That's it. Fades didn't all of a sudden get regen and meta together. Lerks didn't all of a sudden get harder to kill. People just haven't played the class right.
So stop all your whining and learn to play, I'm really sick of hearing how 'unbalanced' 3.0F is. Its balanced just fine, everyone is just playing as if it were still beta 5.
....No, seriously, just no.
Look at the CAL championship matches, except for Veil (in some ways, it's very marine biased, but usually just for pubs) when everybody was already very tired, all there was were alien ties.
And what's worse? The strength scales up since free upgrade skulks can swarm in large pubs and spawn in at a ridiculous rate where you have to kill 2.6 skulks to match the respawn rate and kill even more for the same footing, since they are faster. Early game logistics fall heavily on aliens.
Aliens work together in a pub too, I've seen it happen all too much. I can get my marines to listen, but I can't make the aliens not work together.
Alien teamwork > marine teamwork.
Ill agree Aliens are much stronger but learn to deal with it. If Marines dont literally "act" like real Marines they will get wrecked. Work together and aim better.
I comm a fair ammount on the SA server and we have some outstanding players the key to a good game is no team stacking as long as the teams are of equal ability then it's fine otherwise theres no point lately we have been doing alot of pickups this helps prevent team stacking we have had MANY GGs from pickups.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fades slaughter solo heavies. Onos will usually win against a solo jetpacker, unless the ceiling is very high and even then, the jetpacker only wins if he started out with full fuel.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To theclam when do you see solo heavies? are you mad?? no good comm drops only one heavy kit and if you get killed by a lone onos when you have a jetpack then you obviously don't know how to use it very well. A jetpacker with a shotgun can murder an onos without sometimes with redemption in a short space of time, stomp doesn't affect you and if your in a corridor fly away it's not hard.
At any rate, people who say the game is "perfectly fine" and "balanced" as it is obviously are dillusional.
But this is a tired topic, and... they're likely hard at work now making balance changes for the next update. Just have to wait and see what happens..
The most gameplay affecting change is free upgrades. This means that lifeforms will come out 2-6 res faster, as well as rines will encounter upgraded skulks and gorges.
Just on a small sidenote: Why do you sudenly complain about the fade.
Are they stronger than in b5? Not really.
Did they nerf marine equipment or health/ armor rating? I dont think so (SG aside)
Well why are fades suddenly overpowered?
Some facts: Good skulks have always been able to fade around the 3:30 mark or make a 2nd hive. But thanks to free upgrades we just see it happen more often. The 3 minute fade/hive becomes more commen and commen.
The average time it takes to get a 2nd hive or a fade has been shortened due to free upgrades for skulk.
So before you start shouting: "reduce the fades armor/health" think about adding an additional 10 seconds to the fades gestation time.
Even in CAL, aliens are walking all over the marines. And two shotgunners CAN kill a fade in less than one second, but even amongst clans, you don't see that happening.
Buff marines, or nerf aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously didn't see the CAL finals.
As to the overpowered fades,
<b>aim</b>.
And as for the CAL finals, the rounds were much closer than you think, and the "overpowered fades" or "alien bias" didn't cause that.
Plus the free upgrades really helped both teams on alien side. When you scrimmed before, it was a marine tie. During the championships, there were two alien ties, one marine tie (Terror stomped you on the second half of the first Veil game, while you barely edged by on your marine game before).
Though it's too hard to judge over the actual people who played the game, I wish we could friggin' use the minimap. Would make watching heaps better.
It's not that fades are overpowered, but when you're able to fade earlier and make the marines a lot weaker in the early game (the part where they are undoubtedly the strongest in), that's when they become overpowered.
Oh, and Jmmsbnd007, obviously there IS an alien bias seeing as marines stayed practically the same except for the PG nerf (at the time) while every skulk I saw got those free upgrades, which caused a light marine to die and a skulk to live in many instances.
Plus the free upgrades really helped both teams on alien side. When you scrimmed before, it was a marine tie. During the championships, there were two alien ties, one marine tie (Terror stomped you on the second half of the first Veil game, while you barely edged by on your marine game before).
Though it's too hard to judge over the actual people who played the game, I wish we could friggin' use the minimap. Would make watching heaps better.
It's not that fades are overpowered, but when you're able to fade earlier and make the marines a lot weaker in the early game (the part where they are undoubtedly the strongest in), that's when they become overpowered.
Oh, and Jmmsbnd007, obviously there IS an alien bias seeing as marines stayed practically the same except for the PG nerf (at the time) while every skulk I saw got those free upgrades, which caused a light marine to die and a skulk to live in many instances. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to have to disagree with you here (surprised?). On the veil rounds, both teams stomped the **** out of the other side on their respective marine halves, with the exception of terror's last marine half, where they finally lost. Really though, once your marine team has shotguns, fades really can't touch you without support/heavy coordination. You don't even need a shotgun, on tanith, Nadagast and I LMG'd Mustang as a fade. Granted, these skill levels are much higher than that of a pubber, but let's be realistic here. When you play top teams like terror, a single LMG can whittle you down usually to the low-to-no armor range. Shotguns are about the same, maybe a little more dangerous (rate of fire issues I guess, but you still have to be careful as hell), and HMGs... forget it. A good player from any top delta team with an HMG will frag you in 1/2 a second if you screw up even by a minor amount. But I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that this applies to top American and Euro teams, and no one in pubs will ever aim or play this good. What I'm trying to say is that if 1-2 LMGs can beat the crap or kill a fade with only guns 1, then lower-skilled pubbers, with say guns 2+ shotguns, should easily be able to take down fades. Actually, if they can't, they're just plain bad. I know that you can't throw "GET MORE SKILL" at every problem, but this is one where I have to. 2-3 marines with decent aim and decent weaponry should be able to toast anything but the most cautious cara fades (who won't do any damage worth mentioning in the first place), or very good fades (which are rare in pubs).
EDIT: Some people commented that we [Exigent] could have won our marine half on caged if we had adequate mines on the puri phase gate when sewer was going up. Whether you believe that is up to you, but I'm trying to show that the rounds weren't as alien-biased as you think.
Plus, it's not just the fade. When you throw in two fades in the mix, with a lerk, and have two gorge support with an odd skulk, it'll easily overpower the 5 marines there, shotguns/hmgs and all. During the failed shipping tunnel siege, that was an excellent display of teamwork on the alien side.
I'm not saying that the slant is too heavily favored towards the aliens, but as for the marines, you have to outclass the aliens for a consistent win. The problem's exacerbated in pub play since you've got skulks that spawn in every four seconds with carapace, silence, celerity, cloak, focus throwing themselves nonstop at the marines.
Second hive up? Unless the alien team is onos free and you have your entire team outfitted with HMGs and HA, you can't realistically expect to win. The same goes for competitive play. Granted, if you say so, if those matches weren't that slanted (which I wouldn't say it was horribly biased), it was still alien wins all around until concentration dipped out in the third and fourth hours and you can't fade as well and reflexes spiral down the shatter, which hurts the Kharaa more than a marine.
3.0 final scales very well in both competitive and pub play, though still with an alien edge. But if you want my opinion? I just want stronger hand grenades. I can live with the bias (makes commanding marines to victory so much sweeter).
I find that the only imbalence is the fade. I also agree with many of the people here that the fade is simply too hard to kill. I remember when the onos was the best, but now I often find I am more worried of fades than onoses, which doesn't follow in a logical manner considering the onos costs more.
The "increase gestation time" is actually a good solution to this problem. It'll give the marines a chance to get some upgraded guns and perhaps jp's.
I have a very good aim, and I never miss the fade. BUT! the problem is when you have the hit and run fades. Even though you can hurt them severely, they are still able to blink so quickly back to heal, and they come back to make another hit and run.
I have done this using my logitech mouse which has two extra buttons. One is assigned to slash, and the other to blink. I blink in and switch in mid flight to slash and take a slash and then blink away. I can stay alive for most of the game without dying. Even heavy's eventually die with the hit n' run tatic. More and more fades are using this tatic and it makes killing them almost impossible. In fact, I was the only one who was able to kill them because I waited for them to come with my jp and hmg. So I was able to follow and kill them, which they usually don't expect.
maybe if the blink to slash reaction time was slower then the marines could have a fighting chance, but right now it's instantaneous. There is no lag time between the two functions, so often you will get slashed and not even know who did it.