<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The entire point IS to slow down alien early game. I think 20 res may be a tad too much, but if we reduce alien starting res to 20, and then make chambers 15, that might work. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you want to drop RTs?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Guys please, stop picking holes in each other's suggestions - you're just polluting the topic with needless debate. The idea here is to give all competitive players a chance to communicate their insights. We want to hear all the opinions, both majority and minority.
<b>It isn't each other you have to convince, it is us. The best way to achieve this is to keep your analysis clear and focused.</b>.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
It also would reduce the impact of the second hive slightly, as new upgrade chambers would be slower to go up.
Agreement:
Armour changes would be nice in order to make A3 worthwhile and I really like anything that will encourage people to parasite, even if it will reduce the effectiveness of ambushing marines slightly (loss of suprise in some cases).
Revulsion:
If cloaking counters individual skill, motion tracking counters fun. Motion tracking sucks as it is, given that the only counter to it ties the kharaa down an entire upgrade path. If you want to give marines cheap motion tracking, then I request the right to have free silence and cloak. And the right to punch you in the face. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea at all, but 20 would be overdoing it, try 15? This would stop l2 celerity at 30-60 seconds gametime just the same (having one person rush to try and kill a marine for rfk then build two chambers when he respawns is popular these days). It'd still be possible of course, but the viability of über-early chambers would go down anyway.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Apr 12 2005, 04:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Apr 12 2005, 04:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The entire point IS to slow down alien early game. I think 20 res may be a tad too much, but if we reduce alien starting res to 20, and then make chambers 15, that might work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you want to drop RTs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You go kill a marine first. This also has the added benefit of delaying alien mid-game.
1-hive 2-fade 3-fade 4-chambers and after that perm gorge to support the fades 5-rt and later lerk 6-rt and later res ****
Assuming that the chamber player makes 2-3 early kills he can start placing 3 chambers at 1:00. Meaning that there will be upgraded skulk around 1:20. Marine can have au1 or wu1 just a few seconds later (more likely au1). If the hive player or one of the fade players get 4-6 kills they are able to fade or place a hive around 3:30-4:00. Marines can try to set up a pg near either the building or the main hive and attempt to SG it down. They should have au1 and wu2 around 5:00, maybe aa or mt (more likely aa). If the attempt to SG down one hive fails, the game tends be decided. (Marines have lost at least 5*10+5*5+15=90 res in attempt to take down one hive and are unlikely to recover from this blow).
This represents a typicall scrim, as far as it concerns me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A typical 10vs10 strat: (average pub size, only regulars)
01-hive 02-fade 03-fade 04-lerk 05-1 chamber, stays gorge (another chamber after 2nd hive went up) 06-1 chamber, stays gorge (another chamber after 2nd hive went up) 07-1 chamber, stays gorge (another chamber after 2nd hive went up) 08-rt and later lerk 09-rt and later res **** 10-rt and later res ****
Upgraded skulks at 0:30 means that marines dont have a single upgrade and their expansion is heavily crippled. Assuming that the hive player or a fade player makes 3-5 kills a hive can be placed around 4:30-5:00. Marines can either attempt to ninja pg and then sg rush one of the hives or they can go for ha and have about 4 ha shortly before the 2nd hive is up. If they manage do take a hive down its usually a marine win, if not they just wasted 4*15+2*15+2*10+4*5+15=145 res and are unlikely to recover from this blow.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -free upgrades allow good skulk to get even more kills and thus they are able to place a hive or go fade even earlier --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
possible marine buffs/alien nerfs:
-increase the build time for a hive and/or the gestation time for a fade
-increase the chamber costs; this will delay upgraded skulks
-increase lifeforms upgrades to 1 res; this might work but decrease the fun of skulking alot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90961' target='_blank'>force the clients net settings</a>; this will help out in pubs but not in scrims
-raising marine armor a little; this give greater importance to welders and au2 will be worth its costs against fade
-decrease alien rfk from 1-3 to 1-2; less rfk=delayed 2nd hive/fade
-make ammo and meds free, but a marine should only be able to pick up a med pack once every 3 seconds and a ammo pack once every 2 seconds
-increase marine starting ammo; marines that hump dont fight aliens
Personally i would like to see free meds and ammo (with anti spam measures of course <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because it means that there will be more upgrades for marines and a caring comm can provide all of his soldiers with ammo and meds anytime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 12 2005, 04:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 12 2005, 04:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides removing focus completely, one way to help is to drastically increase fous energy use (maybe one swipe/bite costs as much as a parasite energy) so the aliens have a much harder time with energy management while using focus. Also this means focus fades will need HELP taking down structures (wow, you mean they actually can't do everything themselves? What an idea!). Another way is to drastically increase focus cool-down time. 5 seconds between attacks. this won;t hurt Focus fades *that* much but now there will be a *choice* to be made when skulks take upgrades. Right now Focus/celerity/leap skulks are godly, and this will make skulks think twice before blindly taking it. Combine this with an increase in the rate at which armor gets welded, and making welders an upgrade, will focus will not be the overpowered upgrade it is now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If all these changes were to be made focused would no longer be overpowered. Instead it would be made totally useless, which isn't what we're aiming for.
And Faskalia, if SC isnt a viable chamber after 1:00, then howcome they tend to drag the games out for eternity (well, atleast until the marines are almost fully teched and in many scenarios equipped with HA) if the marines doesn't manage to take down the scs [on pubs]?
I still think that SCs should cloak aliens and structures within range, but not the chamber itself. This would FORCE the alien-team to think more about where they place the chambers so they arent able to run around randomly placing SCs all over the map in the most retarded places. Cloaking as an upgrade should also be replaced with something else that makes the game less boring. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd only want to implement 2 out of the 3 really. I really don't like focus, and want to see it gone completely. Barring that, this will do the trick.
For me and FeX I think sc is the main problem. Aliens have gotten a boost but the problem is the huge difference in the 1st chambers. Sens is too powerful throughout the game, not only at the start with cloaking, but mid game and late game with focus. This chamber is so much harder to deal with that mc and dc, and this means ur 3.02 changes did nothing to help, it meant that mc and dc were harder to win with whilst sc is still the "i win" chamber. Fix sens 1st, the "hit box bug" ppl talk about wont affect sens anyway cause u die before u see the skulk.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* We're talking about balance here, not the development process or people's attitude towards the game and its community.></span>
Increasing chamber cost to 15 might work nicely. As stated the aliens could not get the 3mc/sc chambers up in the beginning to totally own the weak marines. Also with 15ress losing a chamber would hurt aliens more as it should. Please do not make the motion cheaper, it is a killer upgrade if you do <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I also second that welders could be researched via armory. 5 Ress for a welder in the beginning and even in midgame is kinda steep prise. Keep up with the good suggestions...
<!--QuoteBegin-Rebeli+Apr 12 2005, 06:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rebeli @ Apr 12 2005, 06:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Increasing chamber cost to 15 might work nicely. As stated the aliens could not get the 3mc/sc chambers up in the beginning to totally own the weak marines. Also with 15ress losing a chamber would hurt aliens more as it should. Please do not make the motion cheaper, it is a killer upgrade if you do <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I also second that welders could be researched via armory. 5 Ress for a welder in the beginning and even in midgame is kinda steep prise. Keep up with the good suggestions... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anywhere ebtween 1-5 more res for a chamber would work decently tbh. I'd rather see many smaller changes that adds up, than one large one that carries the possibility to throw game balance out.
[Edit] Also, I'm not so sure about the welder upgrade thing. It sounds great untill you start thinking about focus being a mandatory mid-game fade upgrade atm. With greater welding capabilities, comes the need for quicker kills as fade. And focus provides quicker kills than any other upgrade. This would actually make focus an even better choice than is now. I think anyway, pure speculation.
[Edit2] Right, and I dont want to readd cost for upgrades, since that would be a big step backwards in terms of game play (versus game balance).
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 07:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it's the other way around. Focus forces marines to weld a lot MORE because it bypasses med-spam <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, focus is what makes most people see the need for welding.
My point however is that focus is the strongest upgrade to take as a fade mid game, and strengthening the marines in general to counteract this alien strenght will only make focus mandatory instead of merely the best choice.
We want to bring gameplay away from mandatory focus fades, not force fades into that route because of stronger marines.
I think 15 might also be a bit too much for a chamber, maybe 13 would be a nicer number, but even then the upgrades themselves from the chambers cause issues. Celerity isn't any easier to register on at 3 minutes than it is at 30 seconds.
I think we can rule out combat ever being removed but thinking about it, there are definately ways to fix it. The major issues with combat are this:
- Webbing - Xeno - Insanely powerful skulks
Now, there are a couple of simple fixes that could actually make combat somewhat more worthwhile for most players. Firstly you could stop skulks taking more than one upgrade from any chamber, but that'd result in an entire team of fades and that's probably worse. I'd suggest a setup like this:
- First upgrade from a chamber costs 1 experience point - Second upgrade from a chamber costs 2 experience points - Third upgrade from a chamber costs 3 experience points
This means we'll no longer have the insane adrenaline, silence, celerity, regen, carapace, leaping, focus skulks of old. Taking 3 upgrades from one chamber would be over half your total experience (6 points) but at the same time it doesn't entirely remove the element of unchained chambers. This could encourage people to actual think more about their upgrades and to experiment with higher lifeforms rather than being an insane skulk tank with every upgrade under the sun. Combat is there to prepare people for classic ns_ right? It really isn't doing that.
Removing third hive upgrades for aliens would be SUCH a god send. Xeno and webbing TOTALLY ruin combat and if it was played in a competitive enviroment then aliens would enver lose. You'd get a player to save for webbing and have a few skulks xenoing whilst your celerity, focus, regen fade picks off marines. It's totally over powering and insanely unfun to play againist. PLEASE remove third hive abilities all together from CO.
Personally though, and this is far more ambitious, I'd like to see combat become more about map domination than just kills. Think a similiar scenario to that unreal mode where you have to hold those portals and that unlocks new vehicles. Adding RTs to a map that teams have to hold would teach people the importance of res towers. Allow it so that holding RTs gives you a set amount of XP every tick to encourage people to hold RTs and maps would have varying amounts of nodes depending on size. Nodes could become marine or alien through your presence for an extended period of time, or perhaps a marine has to weld it to make it marine. The aliens would then have to destroy it and healspray it to make it theirs. Teamwork+++ anyone? This would allow mappers to have some control over their maps, they could have many RTs which give little XP or let teams fight over one in a central area which gives a good amount when held. It'd also introduce an element of strategy, which rts to hold, best ways to hold them, who's gonna get the welder, who'll gorge etc etc etc.
EDIT: I think i stole that idea from romano ^_^ :S
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I'm actually ok with the super-skulks (although I hate 3 hive abilities in general) but what I have major beef with are the higher lifeforms that can still get most of the upgrades. A Fade with cele/cara/redemption/regen/meta/focus is just too ridiculous. That one Fade can easily tie up an entire team with HMGs, waste all of their bullets, and get away safely, probably after killing one marine. I just think that taking upgrades in the same tree should just not be allowed at all.
Aliens should automatically unlock hive2 abilities say...halfway through the time limit. The first upgrade they take costs one point, the second, 2, the third, three points, and they must be from different trees. If you die, you can re-pick upgrades (perhaps select while dead?) but you still need to re-gestate after you respawn. So, with 9 points in a vanilla (which I never see these days tbh) combat game, a Fade can potentially get all 3 upgrades, and he automatically gets metabolize at 7.5 minutes. An Onos would not be able to get 3 upgrades unless the server allows extra levels.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Apr 12 2005, 07:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Apr 12 2005, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 07:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it's the other way around. Focus forces marines to weld a lot MORE because it bypasses med-spam <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, focus is what makes most people see the need for welding.
My point however is that focus is the strongest upgrade to take as a fade mid game, and strengthening the marines in general to counteract this alien strenght will only make focus mandatory instead of merely the best choice.
We want to bring gameplay away from mandatory focus fades, not force fades into that route because of stronger marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then let's remove focus as an option. Remove it completely.
You know, in the past aliens didn't *need* fous to win and with DMS or MDS being the most common back then, aliens still managed to win qutie a few...without focus. Aliens can adapt to playing without focus just as marines are adapting to the new alien buffs I'm sure. Maybe removing focus is just the nerf aliens need to put things back into balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 03:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A Fade with cele/cara/redemption/regen/meta/focus is just too ridiculous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And currently not possible witheout plugins <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway i like the idea of upgrades beeing unlocked with time. It prevents a single alien/rine from overwhelming the other team completely.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2005
I actually want us to concentrate on Classic balance, as that's what most clans seems to want to play, and that's what all the tournaments etc. is about.
We'll talk about Combat another day. Cool?
Edit: Some "i agree with you"-posts have been removed. We're not really counting votes for suggestions.
Could we remove the SOF from the sensory chamber sight? It discourages the use of SOF with skulks because you can already see all of your choke points covered by chambers.
Are you aiming for 2 'side benefits' for each chamber? e.g. liek sc is sof+cloaking within range, MC is hive movement+adren boost. Perhaps DCs could boost innate regen? Timings/amounts would need to be tweaked to ensure it doesnt replace regen as an upgrade choice.
As for the SC upgrades I'm kinda stuck <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A couple of ideas I've had but disregarded since they seem too similaror they suck:<ul><li>the ability to see marine actions within a certain radius - like a method of spying on what the marines have spent res on, if they put a pg in a certain area the build message would pop up for the aliens. This would enable aliens to react to things but not pre empt them like SOF does</li><li>Remove SOF for the chamber and add pheromone trails from marines that have walked past recently</li></ul>
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Focus doesn't do what I originally suggested it for anyway, i.e. to make sensories a useful offensive choice. The cooldown guaranteed that. I'd have little problem seing it removed again.
If you're going to suggest anything, suggest something that currently deals with gaps in the kharaa's counter system.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* I deleted it. Stay within the scope of this thread.></span>
As for reducing the cost of chambers, this would do more harm than good unless you reduce the power of sens. Atm the only chamber type that works with only 1 chamber up is sens, which basically gives u full power with 1 chamber, mc would miss out on silence and celerity wouldnt be powerful and dc would be a joke, thus you would skew the current situation further towards sens domination which is the main problem. We have been playing vs sens and clans that cant beat us with any other chamber can beat us with sens 1st, which is depressing. As a wise man once said "beating someone with sens is easier than beating a retard in chess". I see very little wins vs sens, very few, and this isnt due to ppl not trying to find ways to beat sens, its that sens is too tough to beat.
I don't think removing focus is the way forward, it's an incredibly fun upgrade to play with as a fade, it just needs to be more easily counterable by the marines. Relying on marines to weld doesn't really work vs two fades and a lerk. I'd rather an armour upgrade (A2 & A3) that could survive 3 focus hits from a fade, it'd open up the tech tree abit more and provide a new strategy for beating SC.
It's cloaking that should be considered for removal, it takes 0 skill to use effectively and it is neither fun to play with or againist. (Well, maybe fun for some people, but i don't find enjoyment in skillless kills).
EDIT: Alien flashlight as it is chould be a SC upgrade again. Have it highlight aliens and structures like normal, but the upgrade allow it to make marines brighter and maybe gives that structure dropping thing G suggested. SOF allows you to see marines that you wouldn't normally but once they're on your screen you lose them, enhanced sight would allow you to better see marines on your screen.
And yeah, removing SOF from teh SC would help a lot, SC is the ultimate in lazy boy scouting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus doesn't do what I originally suggested it for anyway, i.e. to make sensories a useful offensive choice. The cooldown guaranteed that. I'd have little problem seing it removed again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on guys instead of always taking the fix what we have currently idea, keep with putting in something new.
Analyse the current situation, sensories provide good scouting and cloaking provides a reasonable offensive bonus.
MC and DC gives 1 upgrade passively in range (Adrenalin and regeneration); while SC gives 2 (SOF and cloaking)... Getting rid of one of them is a good idea...
I also prefer keeping SOF and removing cloaking... But only for lifeforms... SC should cloak buildings as is, IMO...
<!--QuoteBegin-gazOzz+Apr 12 2005, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gazOzz @ Apr 12 2005, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MC and DC gives 1 upgrade passively in range (Adrenalin and regeneration); while SC gives 2 (SOF and cloaking)... Getting rid of one of them is a good idea...
I also prefer keeping SOF and removing cloaking... But only for lifeforms... SC should cloak buildings as is, IMO... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well imo MC has 2 benefits, although teleportation to the hive is not dependand on range.
seems more like dc needs a buff such as: dc emits umbra cloud when beeing shot or used by a gorge <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you really wanted to remove cloaking from the sensory chamber i would suggest switching it for silence (I know that silence is an MC upgrade)
midgame focus fades and skulks wouldnt be quite so bad if they didnt always come with celerity, how about swapping focus and silence along with some of the other proposed changes changes? silence even fits in with the style of sensory quite well, admittedly this would probably make mc totally mandatory either first or second which is a problem :/
alternativly how about going the other way with focus..having it give a boosted attack rof but the same or slightly less damage?
DCs seem to be the underpowered chamber now, and has 1 benefit and needs another like faskalia posted as i started writing this <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
DCs boost alien structure health? Make Hives build faster?
Maybe they could do some damage to marines who are in a certain range, give them a virus like when you hit acid water on daimos, you lose more health when inrange and less when out of range but still get damaged abit, just like the acid effect and after all they are meant to defend?!
a agree dcs are under powered but aliens are over powered so balancing the chambers by just buffing them probably wont help, unless you use lots of the other marine buff/ alien nerf suggestions posted here too
Comments
How do you want to drop RTs?
<b>It isn't each other you have to convince, it is us. The best way to achieve this is to keep your analysis clear and focused.</b>.
Suggestion:
Raise upgrade chamber costs.
Make them 20 res. That slows down the early kharaa game, makes putting SCs in the field a lot more of a financial risk and generally makes a strategic raid on the hive to take out chambers worthwhile. Consequently, it increases the value of ASCs too.
It also would reduce the impact of the second hive slightly, as new upgrade chambers would be slower to go up.
Agreement:
Armour changes would be nice in order to make A3 worthwhile and I really like anything that will encourage people to parasite, even if it will reduce the effectiveness of ambushing marines slightly (loss of suprise in some cases).
Revulsion:
If cloaking counters individual skill, motion tracking counters fun. Motion tracking sucks as it is, given that the only counter to it ties the kharaa down an entire upgrade path. If you want to give marines cheap motion tracking, then I request the right to have free silence and cloak. And the right to punch you in the face. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea at all, but 20 would be overdoing it, try 15? This would stop l2 celerity at 30-60 seconds gametime just the same (having one person rush to try and kill a marine for rfk then build two chambers when he respawns is popular these days). It'd still be possible of course, but the viability of über-early chambers would go down anyway.
How do you want to drop RTs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You go kill a marine first. This also has the added benefit of delaying alien mid-game.
A typical 6vs6 strat:
1-hive
2-fade
3-fade
4-chambers and after that perm gorge to support the fades
5-rt and later lerk
6-rt and later res ****
Assuming that the chamber player makes 2-3 early kills he can start placing 3 chambers at 1:00. Meaning that there will be upgraded skulk around 1:20.
Marine can have au1 or wu1 just a few seconds later (more likely au1). If the hive player or one of the fade players get 4-6 kills they are able to fade or place a hive around 3:30-4:00. Marines can try to set up a pg near either the building or the main hive and attempt to SG it down. They should have au1 and wu2 around 5:00, maybe aa or mt (more likely aa). If the attempt to SG down one hive fails, the game tends be decided. (Marines have lost at least 5*10+5*5+15=90 res in attempt to take down one hive and are unlikely to recover from this blow).
This represents a typicall scrim, as far as it concerns me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A typical 10vs10 strat: (average pub size, only regulars)
01-hive
02-fade
03-fade
04-lerk
05-1 chamber, stays gorge (another chamber after 2nd hive went up)
06-1 chamber, stays gorge (another chamber after 2nd hive went up)
07-1 chamber, stays gorge (another chamber after 2nd hive went up)
08-rt and later lerk
09-rt and later res ****
10-rt and later res ****
Upgraded skulks at 0:30 means that marines dont have a single upgrade and their expansion is heavily crippled. Assuming that the hive player or a fade player makes 3-5 kills a hive can be placed around 4:30-5:00. Marines can either attempt to ninja pg and then sg rush one of the hives or they can go for ha and have about 4 ha shortly before the 2nd hive is up. If they manage do take a hive down its usually a marine win, if not they just wasted 4*15+2*15+2*10+4*5+15=145 res and are unlikely to recover from this blow.
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-free upgrades allow good skulk to get even more kills and thus they are able to place a hive or go fade even earlier
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possible marine buffs/alien nerfs:
-increase the build time for a hive and/or the gestation time for a fade
-increase the chamber costs; this will delay upgraded skulks
-increase lifeforms upgrades to 1 res; this might work but decrease the fun of skulking alot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90961' target='_blank'>force the clients net settings</a>; this will help out in pubs but not in scrims
-raising marine armor a little; this give greater importance to welders and au2 will be worth its costs against fade
-decrease alien rfk from 1-3 to 1-2; less rfk=delayed 2nd hive/fade
-make ammo and meds free, but a marine should only be able to pick up a med pack once every 3 seconds and a ammo pack once every 2 seconds
-increase marine starting ammo; marines that hump dont fight aliens
Personally i would like to see free meds and ammo (with anti spam measures of course <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because it means that there will be more upgrades for marines and a caring comm can provide all of his soldiers with ammo and meds anytime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If all these changes were to be made focused would no longer be overpowered. Instead it would be made totally useless, which isn't what we're aiming for.
And Faskalia, if SC isnt a viable chamber after 1:00, then howcome they tend to drag the games out for eternity (well, atleast until the marines are almost fully teched and in many scenarios equipped with HA) if the marines doesn't manage to take down the scs [on pubs]?
I still think that SCs should cloak aliens and structures within range, but not the chamber itself. This would FORCE the alien-team to think more about where they place the chambers so they arent able to run around randomly placing SCs all over the map in the most retarded places. Cloaking as an upgrade should also be replaced with something else that makes the game less boring. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd only want to implement 2 out of the 3 really. I really don't like focus, and want to see it gone completely. Barring that, this will do the trick.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* We're talking about balance here, not the development process or people's attitude towards the game and its community.></span>
I also second that welders could be researched via armory. 5 Ress for a welder in the beginning and even in midgame is kinda steep prise. Keep up with the good suggestions...
I also second that welders could be researched via armory. 5 Ress for a welder in the beginning and even in midgame is kinda steep prise. Keep up with the good suggestions... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anywhere ebtween 1-5 more res for a chamber would work decently tbh. I'd rather see many smaller changes that adds up, than one large one that carries the possibility to throw game balance out.
[Edit] Also, I'm not so sure about the welder upgrade thing. It sounds great untill you start thinking about focus being a mandatory mid-game fade upgrade atm. With greater welding capabilities, comes the need for quicker kills as fade. And focus provides quicker kills than any other upgrade. This would actually make focus an even better choice than is now. I think anyway, pure speculation.
[Edit2] Right, and I dont want to readd cost for upgrades, since that would be a big step backwards in terms of game play (versus game balance).
Yes, focus is what makes most people see the need for welding.
My point however is that focus is the strongest upgrade to take as a fade mid game, and strengthening the marines in general to counteract this alien strenght will only make focus mandatory instead of merely the best choice.
We want to bring gameplay away from mandatory focus fades, not force fades into that route because of stronger marines.
- Webbing
- Xeno
- Insanely powerful skulks
Now, there are a couple of simple fixes that could actually make combat somewhat more worthwhile for most players. Firstly you could stop skulks taking more than one upgrade from any chamber, but that'd result in an entire team of fades and that's probably worse. I'd suggest a setup like this:
- First upgrade from a chamber costs 1 experience point
- Second upgrade from a chamber costs 2 experience points
- Third upgrade from a chamber costs 3 experience points
This means we'll no longer have the insane adrenaline, silence, celerity, regen, carapace, leaping, focus skulks of old. Taking 3 upgrades from one chamber would be over half your total experience (6 points) but at the same time it doesn't entirely remove the element of unchained chambers. This could encourage people to actual think more about their upgrades and to experiment with higher lifeforms rather than being an insane skulk tank with every upgrade under the sun. Combat is there to prepare people for classic ns_ right? It really isn't doing that.
Removing third hive upgrades for aliens would be SUCH a god send. Xeno and webbing TOTALLY ruin combat and if it was played in a competitive enviroment then aliens would enver lose. You'd get a player to save for webbing and have a few skulks xenoing whilst your celerity, focus, regen fade picks off marines. It's totally over powering and insanely unfun to play againist. PLEASE remove third hive abilities all together from CO.
Personally though, and this is far more ambitious, I'd like to see combat become more about map domination than just kills. Think a similiar scenario to that unreal mode where you have to hold those portals and that unlocks new vehicles. Adding RTs to a map that teams have to hold would teach people the importance of res towers. Allow it so that holding RTs gives you a set amount of XP every tick to encourage people to hold RTs and maps would have varying amounts of nodes depending on size. Nodes could become marine or alien through your presence for an extended period of time, or perhaps a marine has to weld it to make it marine. The aliens would then have to destroy it and healspray it to make it theirs. Teamwork+++ anyone? This would allow mappers to have some control over their maps, they could have many RTs which give little XP or let teams fight over one in a central area which gives a good amount when held. It'd also introduce an element of strategy, which rts to hold, best ways to hold them, who's gonna get the welder, who'll gorge etc etc etc.
EDIT: I think i stole that idea from romano ^_^ :S
Aliens should automatically unlock hive2 abilities say...halfway through the time limit. The first upgrade they take costs one point, the second, 2, the third, three points, and they must be from different trees. If you die, you can re-pick upgrades (perhaps select while dead?) but you still need to re-gestate after you respawn. So, with 9 points in a vanilla (which I never see these days tbh) combat game, a Fade can potentially get all 3 upgrades, and he automatically gets metabolize at 7.5 minutes. An Onos would not be able to get 3 upgrades unless the server allows extra levels.
Yes, focus is what makes most people see the need for welding.
My point however is that focus is the strongest upgrade to take as a fade mid game, and strengthening the marines in general to counteract this alien strenght will only make focus mandatory instead of merely the best choice.
We want to bring gameplay away from mandatory focus fades, not force fades into that route because of stronger marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then let's remove focus as an option. Remove it completely.
You know, in the past aliens didn't *need* fous to win and with DMS or MDS being the most common back then, aliens still managed to win qutie a few...without focus. Aliens can adapt to playing without focus just as marines are adapting to the new alien buffs I'm sure. Maybe removing focus is just the nerf aliens need to put things back into balance.
And currently not possible witheout plugins <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway i like the idea of upgrades beeing unlocked with time. It prevents a single alien/rine from overwhelming the other team completely.
We'll talk about Combat another day. Cool?
Edit: Some "i agree with you"-posts have been removed. We're not really counting votes for suggestions.
Keep up the good work.
I think it's important we talk about both games because they can affect eachother greatly.
Like some of the suggestions so far, the welder one is good.
I'm up for focus being removed but the problem is GOOD suggestions for another upgrade.
Cloak and SOF sort scouting/camouflage so the other sensory needs to be unrelated to these.
Gonna do some thinking.
Are you aiming for 2 'side benefits' for each chamber? e.g. liek sc is sof+cloaking within range, MC is hive movement+adren boost. Perhaps DCs could boost innate regen? Timings/amounts would need to be tweaked to ensure it doesnt replace regen as an upgrade choice.
As for the SC upgrades I'm kinda stuck <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A couple of ideas I've had but disregarded since they seem too similaror they suck:<ul><li>the ability to see marine actions within a certain radius - like a method of spying on what the marines have spent res on, if they put a pg in a certain area the build message would pop up for the aliens. This would enable aliens to react to things but not pre empt them like SOF does</li><li>Remove SOF for the chamber and add pheromone trails from marines that have walked past recently</li></ul>
If you're going to suggest anything, suggest something that currently deals with gaps in the kharaa's counter system.
As for reducing the cost of chambers, this would do more harm than good unless you reduce the power of sens. Atm the only chamber type that works with only 1 chamber up is sens, which basically gives u full power with 1 chamber, mc would miss out on silence and celerity wouldnt be powerful and dc would be a joke, thus you would skew the current situation further towards sens domination which is the main problem. We have been playing vs sens and clans that cant beat us with any other chamber can beat us with sens 1st, which is depressing. As a wise man once said "beating someone with sens is easier than beating a retard in chess". I see very little wins vs sens, very few, and this isnt due to ppl not trying to find ways to beat sens, its that sens is too tough to beat.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip*></span>
It's cloaking that should be considered for removal, it takes 0 skill to use effectively and it is neither fun to play with or againist. (Well, maybe fun for some people, but i don't find enjoyment in skillless kills).
EDIT: Alien flashlight as it is chould be a SC upgrade again. Have it highlight aliens and structures like normal, but the upgrade allow it to make marines brighter and maybe gives that structure dropping thing G suggested. SOF allows you to see marines that you wouldn't normally but once they're on your screen you lose them, enhanced sight would allow you to better see marines on your screen.
And yeah, removing SOF from teh SC would help a lot, SC is the ultimate in lazy boy scouting.
Why not remove the cloaking effect from sensory chambers? Keep Scent of Fear and MT blocking as passive benefits, but just lose the cloak.
Voila. No more cloaked, focus skulks.
<span style='color:orange'>As gazz0zz points out below, perhaps the building cloak effect should remain.</span>
Come on guys instead of always taking the fix what we have currently idea, keep with putting in something new.
Analyse the current situation, sensories provide good scouting and cloaking provides a reasonable offensive bonus.
What's missing?
I also prefer keeping SOF and removing cloaking... But only for lifeforms... SC should cloak buildings as is, IMO...
I also prefer keeping SOF and removing cloaking... But only for lifeforms... SC should cloak buildings as is, IMO... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well imo MC has 2 benefits, although teleportation to the hive is not dependand on range.
MC: stamina regen + teleportation
SC: cloaking + sof
DC: regen
seems more like dc needs a buff such as: dc emits umbra cloud when beeing shot or used by a gorge <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you really wanted to remove cloaking from the sensory chamber i would suggest switching it for silence (I know that silence is an MC upgrade)
alternativly how about going the other way with focus..having it give a boosted attack rof but the same or slightly less damage?
DCs boost alien structure health? Make Hives build faster?
Maybe they could do some damage to marines who are in a certain range, give them a virus like when you hit acid water on daimos, you lose more health when inrange and less when out of range but still get damaged abit, just like the acid effect and after all they are meant to defend?!