<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is another forum for suggestions, its called I&S. Zunni actually told me that a lot of ideas in the new version came from the that forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Telling the truth about my accomplishments is arrogant? I'm telling you what I did, and why I am not like the other individual. I was refuting his point, if that is arrogant, oh well I am over it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't for the life of me see why you guys need a forum limited souly to current and ex cal clanners. You guys have almost no issues in common any more, and if you absolutly need to have your say uninterupted, there are lots of more priviate venues for you to interact with the NS devs with then company forums. For the life of me I don't see why you feel the need to disclude everyone else. Your issues instantly become irrelelvent if you disclude all the developers who have even the slightest ability to do anything about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, The developers should have a right to post here, I probably should have said that earlier. After all they do run the website and they do actually make the games. It would be especially good to have the mappers post in here, as by getting competitive feedback eclipse and I believe veil are MUCH better maps now. The forum is the perfect place for developers to interact with JUST the clan community, as similar to old vet forum, but now it seems that this forum would be much more effective means of communicating ideas to the dev team without requiring them to goto a seperate website.
For the life of me I don't understand why non-competitive players have to chime in on issues that are irrelevant to them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I see it your number one problem is that none of the super annoying pubbers in the comunity understands any of your issues. Why not educate people rather then ostricizing them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to educate, most will not accept help, especially from a clanner. Those that do accept help usually don't appreciate it, and as I said before I get nothing by teaching players how to play NS. There are marine and alien forums in which someone with a question can ask it, and it will be answered by someone that usually knows what they are talking about. The best way to receive education is to watch demos, and to actually play the game competitively. Any other instruction from my experience has been unfulfilling, and a waste of time, with a very limited ammount of exceptions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nearly all of the current NS developers have never had any clan experiance, let alone delta level experiance. If you need to keep pubbers out of your forums because you can't convince them that you are right and they are wrong, what makes you think you can convince the NS deves? Having an exlusive forum is not going to magically create respect where there was none before. Most likely it just gets seen as a move that keeps the more annoying clanners out of everyone elses hair when they have an idea splurge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As stated early it would make a lot of sense to have the devs post in here with their thoughts. Ultimately, they make the decisions, with or without our suggestions. If this forum was solely for competitive players, without the random people who think they have competitive experience but just want the status of the competitive player, then it would be a more effective means for the competitive community to interact with the dev team more efficently.
I really don't see what the issue is. I don't remember any complaints when the vet program was around when they got exclusive access.
This looks to me like a lighter version of that forum. I wish to keep it competitive players only simply to rid the uneducated, flaming, and silly banter that goes on.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Apr 22 2005, 05:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Apr 22 2005, 05:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or we could just delete hate-mongering posts like Firewater's and try to use *common sense*. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very productive post tjosan. Maybe you shouldn't attack others, and offer an idea or other feedback?
I think people who post one-liners designed to attack another's charecter on this forum should just be perma banned.
By the way, what FW said was hardly "hate-mongering", whatever that supposed to mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is he "furthering the rift"? By making strong arguments? Is this a crime? Furthermore Forlorn, while usually very agressive with his posting style, generated discussion faster and more often than any other poster I've seen. And attacking a banned member who can't respond... how would Nemesis Zero describe it? Real cool.
It seems when I establish a point that threaten's the eStatus of the non-competitive members on this board I get thrown flames that have nothing to do with the logic in my posts.
The insults just further prove my point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Keep them comming <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Again, I think the main beef is that the illusions of those who think they are as good as competitive players will be removed if this forum goes to exclusive to REAL competitive players.
Since those who are non-competitive don't post there often, have generally nothing important to contribute (with few exceptions), and even admit they just like to browse, why would it matter if they couldn't post? Because the perception of being at the same level of a competitive player would be dimished? Or is there another underlying feeling that I have not found.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Apr 22 2005, 10:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Apr 22 2005, 10:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is he "furthering the rift"? By making strong arguments? Is this a crime? Furthermore Forlorn, while usually very agressive with his posting style, generated discussion faster and more often than any other poster I've seen. And attacking a banned member who can't respond... how would Nemesis Zero describe it? Real cool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was not intended as an attack. I always have had and still do have a fair bit of respect for forlorn. I'm still not positive why he was banned, but back in the day when I had my unban forlorn ava (granted the confed flag was kind of childish, but it went with the theme, and the intention was real) Zunni asked me in IRC one day why on earth I would want forlorn unbanned. My reasons were then and still are somewhat longwinded, but zunni still wasn't convinced. He told me that the reason forlorn was, and remained, banned was because he "almost singlehandedly revived the war between pubbers and clanners" (paraphrazed, it was too long ago for me to remember the EXACT quote, but that was the jist of it). If commenting on forlorn was inapropriate I appologize, but you didn't have to be a genius to understand the state of affairs back in the day, and I was under the impression that forlorn being highly involved and responsible was common knowledge. For the record there is nothing wrong with strong arguments, the problem is personal flames and exclusive behavior.
@firewater: Gees, I'm a little disappointed. I wasn't intending to insult you or flame you in any way, and if you were looking for flames there were several other users who posted who work for them much better then anything I said does. I was hoping we could make some forward progress here and acctually discuss eachothers arguments rather then to simply dissmiss them as "flames". For the life of me I still can't see what I said that constitutes a flame...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is another forum for suggestions, its called I&S. Zunni actually told me that a lot of ideas in the new version came from the that forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you suggesting we no longer adress the compeditive forum for balance feedback? That seems a little excessive to me...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Telling the truth about my accomplishments is arrogant? I'm telling you what I did, and why I am not like the other individual. I was refuting his point, if that is arrogant, oh well I am over it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said you were not. Really, I never said anything that made this comment nessicary at all unless you automatically assume that I was intending to insult you because of your actions in your post to Emanon. Quite simply I was not. Stating the extent of your experiance is niether sharing nor flaunting. Teaching people who want to raise the level of thier game how to play better free of charge is DEFINATELY sharing. Posting ideas that might improve compeditive play, but would do so at the expense of pub play is flaunting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't for the life of me see why you guys need a forum limited souly to current and ex cal clanners. You guys have almost no issues in common any more, and if you absolutly need to have your say uninterupted, there are lots of more priviate venues for you to interact with the NS devs with then company forums. For the life of me I don't see why you feel the need to disclude everyone else. Your issues instantly become irrelelvent if you disclude all the developers who have even the slightest ability to do anything about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, The developers should have a right to post here, I probably should have said that earlier. After all they do run the website and they do actually make the games. It would be especially good to have the mappers post in here, as by getting competitive feedback eclipse and I believe veil are MUCH better maps now. The forum is the perfect place for developers to interact with JUST the clan community, as similar to old vet forum, but now it seems that this forum would be much more effective means of communicating ideas to the dev team without requiring them to goto a seperate website.
For the life of me I don't understand why non-competitive players have to chime in on issues that are irrelevant to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Any of the community leaders, having more expertice on the issue then I, can feel free to correct me on anything said here, but as I understand it the vet program was disbanded for a reason, and the NS developers aren't looking to reinstate a similar program. The intended function of this forum is primarily discussion about compeditive issues, not compeditive feedback with the intent of improving NS. The latter is a secondary function that was only brought up some what benevolently out of developer interest after the fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I see it your number one problem is that none of the super annoying pubbers in the comunity understands any of your issues. Why not educate people rather then ostricizing them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to educate, most will not accept help, especially from a clanner. Those that do accept help usually don't appreciate it, and as I said before I get nothing by teaching players how to play NS. There are marine and alien forums in which someone with a question can ask it, and it will be answered by someone that usually knows what they are talking about. The best way to receive education is to watch demos, and to actually play the game competitively. Any other instruction from my experience has been unfulfilling, and a waste of time, with a very limited ammount of exceptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well here you have a forum. Post something here and I read it, as well as many other uneducated and annoying pubbers, and you don't have to work on a one on one basis nor maintain and difficult organizations. I assure you, the vast majority of annoying pubbers don't do annoying things because they just love to **** you off, they simply don't really know any better. Who knows, maby I'll learn something by lurking here and the next time someone pipes up with something retarded elsewhere, I might have a reason to quote one of you guys on something acctually in context.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nearly all of the current NS developers have never had any clan experiance, let alone delta level experiance. If you need to keep pubbers out of your forums because you can't convince them that you are right and they are wrong, what makes you think you can convince the NS deves? Having an exlusive forum is not going to magically create respect where there was none before. Most likely it just gets seen as a move that keeps the more annoying clanners out of everyone elses hair when they have an idea splurge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As stated early it would make a lot of sense to have the devs post in here with their thoughts. Ultimately, they make the decisions, with or without our suggestions. If this forum was solely for competitive players, without the random people who think they have competitive experience but just want the status of the competitive player, then it would be a more effective means for the competitive community to interact with the dev team more efficently.
I really don't see what the issue is. I don't remember any complaints when the vet program was around when they got exclusive access.
This looks to me like a lighter version of that forum. I wish to keep it competitive players only simply to rid the uneducated, flaming, and silly banter that goes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The vast majority of the flaming has been compeditive flamers flaming non compeditive players, or the actions of other compeditive players. If I recall correctly that is exaclty the reason why the vet program was eventually disbanded. One way or another I really doubt the flaming stops once the pubbers stop hanging around. At best all you save is the occational "WTH is he thinking?" experiance when someone comes in here and posts about 12v12 balance or something like that.
Now this is where the moderation should come in and steer the thread back on track. Delete all these "clanner vs pubber" posts, we dont need that in here, it is neither entertaining nor constructive. And it will give this forum a bad reputation if it continues.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Apr 22 2005, 06:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Apr 22 2005, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now this is where the moderation should come in and steer the thread back on track. Delete all these "clanner vs pubber" posts, we dont need that in here, it is neither entertaining nor constructive. And it will give this forum a bad reputation if it continues. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. I decided to split a number of posts -- I'd say roughly the last 10 or dozen, which veered towards a pubber-vs-clanner mentality rather than answering Grendel's question. I understand many of you spent time writing long posts, some of which did contain good, relevant points. You probably don't want to waste time trying to remember these good parts to type them up from scratch again. Because I didn't delete the posts entirely--just put them out of the way--I do still have copies and can PM you a copy-paste of your post if you ask.
[edit]I think I'll try boosting this thing back on-topic by returning to the idea Grendel quoted from another member in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92082&view=findpost&p=1452315' target='_blank'>this post</a> in this thread. It has the apparent good points of letting people who genuinely want to get into the competitive scene post here, while keeping out people who interrupt otherwise productive threads by repeatedly posting Facts From The Bueau Of Statistics Made Up In My Head. The thing is, restricting members from Discussions serves a different purpose. The member group was not created keep out people who can't back up what they say. It keeps out people who are normally fine when talking about stuff like games, but whose temper makes them incompatible for civil discussion of politics, moral policy, current events, etc. I can't remember the last time we restricted a member from Discussions for repeatedly posting things that are misinformed or unsupported, even if they do interrupt conversations. I'd like to hear someone's theory on what makes the Competitive Discussion forums different enough from Discussions to warrant this different cause of restriction.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited April 2005
Competitive Discussion is 100% about NS while Discussion is about any given topic. This forum should be different because it is for competitive players. If you read the rules, it clearly states "Welcome to the new Competitive forums of our boards. We hope they'll offer the higher level NS players a worthwhile place to meet" and "Since the competitive community is, well, competitive, it will often happen that you'll be discussing other player's or team's performances". What I see this as meaning is that this forum is meant for competitive players, and that there will be conflict and strife that comes down to a player's ability. This is acceptable to a certain extent, as long as it doesn't reach the level that belittles the person in question. This rule is quite to the opposite of the rest of the forums, where anything like that could be considered against the rules. This is the first difference.
Since this forum is designed for competitive players to meet, they should be held to a certain standard. When talking about balance, there is no need for empirical evidence to back it up because we have similar experiences. If something is controversial, then evidence needs to be presented to confirm what was stated. The problem is that non-competitive players do not have the background to support prima facae evidence, and often are simply talking out of their rear. This not only breaks the thread flow, but is a waste of time for the competitive player and for any random person reading the forum. I do not believe anyone has a problem with Joe Pubber reading this forum, in fact I like to see people reading this forum that aren't from the community. The problem is that people post that have no experience or evidence to back up their statements, and will actually argue with people that DO have one or the other or even both. I have had people tell me in the Marine/Alien forums that I am clueless and incorrect about commander play or lerking, which is ridiculous. In this forum, that should not be acceptable to any party involved. This forum is for COMPETITIVE players, not Joe Pubber to ramble off innane garbage that has no factual or experienced basis. They have their forums to talk about gameplay in, and we have one made specifically for us.
The Discussion forum is not made for a specific user group, it is made for everyone. The very name "Competitive" Discussion states that it is for competitive play, which is an exclusive group that encompasses only certain players. As such is should have rules that cater to that group. The majority have stated that want restrictions based on what people can say, and I believe that to be acceptable for the reasons I've stated above. Due to the forum name clearly stating the user group targeted by the forum, and the rules stating the same, I do believe that the rules for the forum should state what is acceptable for a non-competitive player to talk about. If the thread is talking about competitive play that requires experience or evidence to talk about, anyone without such evidence should not be posting in that thread. The reasoning is clear: This disrupts the flow of the thread and will take away from those non-competitive players trying to read the thread to learn anything. I know I've had several PMs asking questions based on what I've posted in here and other forums about gameplay and balance, and I have 0 problems with responding to these PMs. Questions are welcome, but please do not clutter up a thread with useless "it should work this way" when one doesn't understand the dynamics of competitive play.
Edit: Marik I also want my post, please pm it to me along with a response to my PM from a couple days ago.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+Apr 22 2005, 11:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ Apr 22 2005, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Competitive Discussion is 100% about NS while Discussion is about any given topic. This forum should be different because it is for competitive players. If you read the rules, it clearly states "Welcome to the new Competitive forums of our boards. We hope they'll offer the higher level NS players a worthwhile place to meet" and "Since the competitive community is, well, competitive, it will often happen that you'll be discussing other player's or team's performances". What I see this as meaning is that this forum is meant for competitive players, and that there will be conflict and strife that comes down to a player's ability. This is acceptable to a certain extent, as long as it doesn't reach the level that belittles the person in question. This rule is quite to the opposite of the rest of the forums, where anything like that could be considered against the rules. This is the first difference.
Since this forum is designed for competitive players to meet, they should be held to a certain standard. When talking about balance, there is no need for empirical evidence to back it up because we have similar experiences. If something is controversial, then evidence needs to be presented to confirm what was stated. The problem is that non-competitive players do not have the background to support prima facae evidence, and often are simply talking out of their rear. This not only breaks the thread flow, but is a waste of time for the competitive player and for any random person reading the forum. I do not believe anyone has a problem with Joe Pubber reading this forum, in fact I like to see people reading this forum that aren't from the community. The problem is that people post that have no experience or evidence to back up their statements, and will actually argue with people that DO have one or the other or even both. I have had people tell me in the Marine/Alien forums that I am clueless and incorrect about commander play or lerking, which is ridiculous. In this forum, that should not be acceptable to any party involved. This forum is for COMPETITIVE players, not Joe Pubber to ramble off innane garbage that has no factual or experienced basis. They have their forums to talk about gameplay in, and we have one made specifically for us.
The Discussion forum is not made for a specific user group, it is made for everyone. The very name "Competitive" Discussion states that it is for competitive play, which is an exclusive group that encompasses only certain players. As such is should have rules that cater to that group. The majority have stated that want restrictions based on what people can say, and I believe that to be acceptable for the reasons I've stated above. Due to the forum name clearly stating the user group targeted by the forum, and the rules stating the same, I do believe that the rules for the forum should state what is acceptable for a non-competitive player to talk about. If the thread is talking about competitive play that requires experience or evidence to talk about, anyone without such evidence should not be posting in that thread. The reasoning is clear: This disrupts the flow of the thread and will take away from those non-competitive players trying to read the thread to learn anything. I know I've had several PMs asking questions based on what I've posted in here and other forums about gameplay and balance, and I have 0 problems with responding to these PMs. Questions are welcome, but please do not clutter up a thread with useless "it should work this way" when one doesn't understand the dynamics of competitive play.
Edit: Marik I also want my post, please pm it to me along with a response to my PM from a couple days ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe this is what the overwhelming amount of competitive players feel.
Of course there are a few exceptions, but I do not believe there are enough of those to deviate the points made by Adj.
I think this is something that the moderators should consider.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is another forum for suggestions, its called I&S. Zunni actually told me that a lot of ideas in the new version came from the that forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Telling the truth about my accomplishments is arrogant? I'm telling you what I did, and why I am not like the other individual. I was refuting his point, if that is arrogant, oh well I am over it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't for the life of me see why you guys need a forum limited souly to current and ex cal clanners. You guys have almost no issues in common any more, and if you absolutly need to have your say uninterupted, there are lots of more priviate venues for you to interact with the NS devs with then company forums. For the life of me I don't see why you feel the need to disclude everyone else. Your issues instantly become irrelelvent if you disclude all the developers who have even the slightest ability to do anything about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, The developers should have a right to post here, I probably should have said that earlier. After all they do run the website and they do actually make the games. It would be especially good to have the mappers post in here, as by getting competitive feedback eclipse and I believe veil are MUCH better maps now. The forum is the perfect place for developers to interact with JUST the clan community, as similar to old vet forum, but now it seems that this forum would be much more effective means of communicating ideas to the dev team without requiring them to goto a seperate website.
For the life of me I don't understand why non-competitive players have to chime in on issues that are irrelevant to them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I see it your number one problem is that none of the super annoying pubbers in the comunity understands any of your issues. Why not educate people rather then ostricizing them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to educate, most will not accept help, especially from a clanner. Those that do accept help usually don't appreciate it, and as I said before I get nothing by teaching players how to play NS. There are marine and alien forums in which someone with a question can ask it, and it will be answered by someone that usually knows what they are talking about. The best way to receive education is to watch demos, and to actually play the game competitively. Any other instruction from my experience has been unfulfilling, and a waste of time, with a very limited ammount of exceptions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nearly all of the current NS developers have never had any clan experiance, let alone delta level experiance. If you need to keep pubbers out of your forums because you can't convince them that you are right and they are wrong, what makes you think you can convince the NS deves? Having an exlusive forum is not going to magically create respect where there was none before. Most likely it just gets seen as a move that keeps the more annoying clanners out of everyone elses hair when they have an idea splurge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As stated early it would make a lot of sense to have the devs post in here with their thoughts. Ultimately, they make the decisions, with or without our suggestions. If this forum was solely for competitive players, without the random people who think they have competitive experience but just want the status of the competitive player, then it would be a more effective means for the competitive community to interact with the dev team more efficently.
I really don't see what the issue is. I don't remember any complaints when the vet program was around when they got exclusive access.
This looks to me like a lighter version of that forum. I wish to keep it competitive players only simply to rid the uneducated, flaming, and silly banter that goes on.
Very productive post tjosan. Maybe you shouldn't attack others, and offer an idea or other feedback?
I think people who post one-liners designed to attack another's charecter on this forum should just be perma banned.
By the way, what FW said was hardly "hate-mongering", whatever that supposed to mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is he "furthering the rift"? By making strong arguments? Is this a crime? Furthermore Forlorn, while usually very agressive with his posting style, generated discussion faster and more often than any other poster I've seen. And attacking a banned member who can't respond... how would Nemesis Zero describe it? Real cool.
The insults just further prove my point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Keep them comming <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Again, I think the main beef is that the illusions of those who think they are as good as competitive players will be removed if this forum goes to exclusive to REAL competitive players.
Since those who are non-competitive don't post there often, have generally nothing important to contribute (with few exceptions), and even admit they just like to browse, why would it matter if they couldn't post? Because the perception of being at the same level of a competitive player would be dimished? Or is there another underlying feeling that I have not found.
How is he "furthering the rift"? By making strong arguments? Is this a crime? Furthermore Forlorn, while usually very agressive with his posting style, generated discussion faster and more often than any other poster I've seen. And attacking a banned member who can't respond... how would Nemesis Zero describe it? Real cool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was not intended as an attack. I always have had and still do have a fair bit of respect for forlorn. I'm still not positive why he was banned, but back in the day when I had my unban forlorn ava (granted the confed flag was kind of childish, but it went with the theme, and the intention was real) Zunni asked me in IRC one day why on earth I would want forlorn unbanned. My reasons were then and still are somewhat longwinded, but zunni still wasn't convinced. He told me that the reason forlorn was, and remained, banned was because he "almost singlehandedly revived the war between pubbers and clanners" (paraphrazed, it was too long ago for me to remember the EXACT quote, but that was the jist of it). If commenting on forlorn was inapropriate I appologize, but you didn't have to be a genius to understand the state of affairs back in the day, and I was under the impression that forlorn being highly involved and responsible was common knowledge. For the record there is nothing wrong with strong arguments, the problem is personal flames and exclusive behavior.
@firewater: Gees, I'm a little disappointed. I wasn't intending to insult you or flame you in any way, and if you were looking for flames there were several other users who posted who work for them much better then anything I said does. I was hoping we could make some forward progress here and acctually discuss eachothers arguments rather then to simply dissmiss them as "flames". For the life of me I still can't see what I said that constitutes a flame...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Granted. I can understand how it therefore would be annoying to hear people repeditively suggest changes to NS that would complealty destroy compeditive balance/fun. But does that really mean we have to pull the old switcharoo on them and make all the suggestions we make compleatly destroy pub balance/fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is another forum for suggestions, its called I&S. Zunni actually told me that a lot of ideas in the new version came from the that forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you suggesting we no longer adress the compeditive forum for balance feedback? That seems a little excessive to me...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a delta level player, most of us will hold you to the code that you get respect as long as you can share your experiance without flaunting it. I really don't understand why you want to further the rift between the compeditive and noncompeditive NS comunities, god knows it has been bad enough ever since forlorn was around doing his thing, and it really has just barely started to repair when most of us started beliving that compeditive NS was in some kind of trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Telling the truth about my accomplishments is arrogant? I'm telling you what I did, and why I am not like the other individual. I was refuting his point, if that is arrogant, oh well I am over it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said you were not. Really, I never said anything that made this comment nessicary at all unless you automatically assume that I was intending to insult you because of your actions in your post to Emanon. Quite simply I was not. Stating the extent of your experiance is niether sharing nor flaunting. Teaching people who want to raise the level of thier game how to play better free of charge is DEFINATELY sharing. Posting ideas that might improve compeditive play, but would do so at the expense of pub play is flaunting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't for the life of me see why you guys need a forum limited souly to current and ex cal clanners. You guys have almost no issues in common any more, and if you absolutly need to have your say uninterupted, there are lots of more priviate venues for you to interact with the NS devs with then company forums. For the life of me I don't see why you feel the need to disclude everyone else. Your issues instantly become irrelelvent if you disclude all the developers who have even the slightest ability to do anything about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, The developers should have a right to post here, I probably should have said that earlier. After all they do run the website and they do actually make the games. It would be especially good to have the mappers post in here, as by getting competitive feedback eclipse and I believe veil are MUCH better maps now. The forum is the perfect place for developers to interact with JUST the clan community, as similar to old vet forum, but now it seems that this forum would be much more effective means of communicating ideas to the dev team without requiring them to goto a seperate website.
For the life of me I don't understand why non-competitive players have to chime in on issues that are irrelevant to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any of the community leaders, having more expertice on the issue then I, can feel free to correct me on anything said here, but as I understand it the vet program was disbanded for a reason, and the NS developers aren't looking to reinstate a similar program. The intended function of this forum is primarily discussion about compeditive issues, not compeditive feedback with the intent of improving NS. The latter is a secondary function that was only brought up some what benevolently out of developer interest after the fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I see it your number one problem is that none of the super annoying pubbers in the comunity understands any of your issues. Why not educate people rather then ostricizing them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to educate, most will not accept help, especially from a clanner. Those that do accept help usually don't appreciate it, and as I said before I get nothing by teaching players how to play NS. There are marine and alien forums in which someone with a question can ask it, and it will be answered by someone that usually knows what they are talking about. The best way to receive education is to watch demos, and to actually play the game competitively. Any other instruction from my experience has been unfulfilling, and a waste of time, with a very limited ammount of exceptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here you have a forum. Post something here and I read it, as well as many other uneducated and annoying pubbers, and you don't have to work on a one on one basis nor maintain and difficult organizations. I assure you, the vast majority of annoying pubbers don't do annoying things because they just love to **** you off, they simply don't really know any better. Who knows, maby I'll learn something by lurking here and the next time someone pipes up with something retarded elsewhere, I might have a reason to quote one of you guys on something acctually in context.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nearly all of the current NS developers have never had any clan experiance, let alone delta level experiance. If you need to keep pubbers out of your forums because you can't convince them that you are right and they are wrong, what makes you think you can convince the NS deves? Having an exlusive forum is not going to magically create respect where there was none before. Most likely it just gets seen as a move that keeps the more annoying clanners out of everyone elses hair when they have an idea splurge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As stated early it would make a lot of sense to have the devs post in here with their thoughts. Ultimately, they make the decisions, with or without our suggestions. If this forum was solely for competitive players, without the random people who think they have competitive experience but just want the status of the competitive player, then it would be a more effective means for the competitive community to interact with the dev team more efficently.
I really don't see what the issue is. I don't remember any complaints when the vet program was around when they got exclusive access.
This looks to me like a lighter version of that forum. I wish to keep it competitive players only simply to rid the uneducated, flaming, and silly banter that goes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vast majority of the flaming has been compeditive flamers flaming non compeditive players, or the actions of other compeditive players. If I recall correctly that is exaclty the reason why the vet program was eventually disbanded. One way or another I really doubt the flaming stops once the pubbers stop hanging around. At best all you save is the occational "WTH is he thinking?" experiance when someone comes in here and posts about 12v12 balance or something like that.
[edit] quotes spaced better.
Agreed. I decided to split a number of posts -- I'd say roughly the last 10 or dozen, which veered towards a pubber-vs-clanner mentality rather than answering Grendel's question.
I understand many of you spent time writing long posts, some of which did contain good, relevant points. You probably don't want to waste time trying to remember these good parts to type them up from scratch again. Because I didn't delete the posts entirely--just put them out of the way--I do still have copies and can PM you a copy-paste of your post if you ask.
[edit]I think I'll try boosting this thing back on-topic by returning to the idea Grendel quoted from another member in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92082&view=findpost&p=1452315' target='_blank'>this post</a> in this thread. It has the apparent good points of letting people who genuinely want to get into the competitive scene post here, while keeping out people who interrupt otherwise productive threads by repeatedly posting Facts From The Bueau Of Statistics Made Up In My Head.
The thing is, restricting members from Discussions serves a different purpose. The member group was not created keep out people who can't back up what they say. It keeps out people who are normally fine when talking about stuff like games, but whose temper makes them incompatible for civil discussion of politics, moral policy, current events, etc.
I can't remember the last time we restricted a member from Discussions for repeatedly posting things that are misinformed or unsupported, even if they do interrupt conversations. I'd like to hear someone's theory on what makes the Competitive Discussion forums different enough from Discussions to warrant this different cause of restriction.
Since this forum is designed for competitive players to meet, they should be held to a certain standard. When talking about balance, there is no need for empirical evidence to back it up because we have similar experiences. If something is controversial, then evidence needs to be presented to confirm what was stated. The problem is that non-competitive players do not have the background to support prima facae evidence, and often are simply talking out of their rear. This not only breaks the thread flow, but is a waste of time for the competitive player and for any random person reading the forum. I do not believe anyone has a problem with Joe Pubber reading this forum, in fact I like to see people reading this forum that aren't from the community. The problem is that people post that have no experience or evidence to back up their statements, and will actually argue with people that DO have one or the other or even both. I have had people tell me in the Marine/Alien forums that I am clueless and incorrect about commander play or lerking, which is ridiculous. In this forum, that should not be acceptable to any party involved. This forum is for COMPETITIVE players, not Joe Pubber to ramble off innane garbage that has no factual or experienced basis. They have their forums to talk about gameplay in, and we have one made specifically for us.
The Discussion forum is not made for a specific user group, it is made for everyone. The very name "Competitive" Discussion states that it is for competitive play, which is an exclusive group that encompasses only certain players. As such is should have rules that cater to that group. The majority have stated that want restrictions based on what people can say, and I believe that to be acceptable for the reasons I've stated above. Due to the forum name clearly stating the user group targeted by the forum, and the rules stating the same, I do believe that the rules for the forum should state what is acceptable for a non-competitive player to talk about. If the thread is talking about competitive play that requires experience or evidence to talk about, anyone without such evidence should not be posting in that thread. The reasoning is clear: This disrupts the flow of the thread and will take away from those non-competitive players trying to read the thread to learn anything. I know I've had several PMs asking questions based on what I've posted in here and other forums about gameplay and balance, and I have 0 problems with responding to these PMs. Questions are welcome, but please do not clutter up a thread with useless "it should work this way" when one doesn't understand the dynamics of competitive play.
Edit: Marik I also want my post, please pm it to me along with a response to my PM from a couple days ago.
Since this forum is designed for competitive players to meet, they should be held to a certain standard. When talking about balance, there is no need for empirical evidence to back it up because we have similar experiences. If something is controversial, then evidence needs to be presented to confirm what was stated. The problem is that non-competitive players do not have the background to support prima facae evidence, and often are simply talking out of their rear. This not only breaks the thread flow, but is a waste of time for the competitive player and for any random person reading the forum. I do not believe anyone has a problem with Joe Pubber reading this forum, in fact I like to see people reading this forum that aren't from the community. The problem is that people post that have no experience or evidence to back up their statements, and will actually argue with people that DO have one or the other or even both. I have had people tell me in the Marine/Alien forums that I am clueless and incorrect about commander play or lerking, which is ridiculous. In this forum, that should not be acceptable to any party involved. This forum is for COMPETITIVE players, not Joe Pubber to ramble off innane garbage that has no factual or experienced basis. They have their forums to talk about gameplay in, and we have one made specifically for us.
The Discussion forum is not made for a specific user group, it is made for everyone. The very name "Competitive" Discussion states that it is for competitive play, which is an exclusive group that encompasses only certain players. As such is should have rules that cater to that group. The majority have stated that want restrictions based on what people can say, and I believe that to be acceptable for the reasons I've stated above. Due to the forum name clearly stating the user group targeted by the forum, and the rules stating the same, I do believe that the rules for the forum should state what is acceptable for a non-competitive player to talk about. If the thread is talking about competitive play that requires experience or evidence to talk about, anyone without such evidence should not be posting in that thread. The reasoning is clear: This disrupts the flow of the thread and will take away from those non-competitive players trying to read the thread to learn anything. I know I've had several PMs asking questions based on what I've posted in here and other forums about gameplay and balance, and I have 0 problems with responding to these PMs. Questions are welcome, but please do not clutter up a thread with useless "it should work this way" when one doesn't understand the dynamics of competitive play.
Edit: Marik I also want my post, please pm it to me along with a response to my PM from a couple days ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe this is what the overwhelming amount of competitive players feel.
Of course there are a few exceptions, but I do not believe there are enough of those to deviate the points made by Adj.
I think this is something that the moderators should consider.