Abortion
Steel_Troll
Join Date: 2004-02-12 Member: 26455Members
Join Date: 2004-02-12 Member: 26455Members
women's rights vs unborn baby's rights
Discuss
My views, abortion should be baned except in extreme circumstances
eg
1) Mother has been raped (Termination only before 14 weeks)
2) Serious threat to mothers life
Why? 14 weeks?
<a href='http://www.caringpregnancycenter.net/baby.html' target='_blank'>This is why</a>
<b>EDIT:</b>Further Material which has come to light in this thread.
Methodsof Abortion
1. Abortion - the termination of a pregnancy.
2. Dilitation and Extraction, D&X, (Partial Birth Abortion) - the baby is delivered feet first. The head is left inside the birth canal. A sharp instrument is used to puncture the rear of the skull at the base and the brains are sucked out. Once dead, the baby is fully delivered.
3. Dilatation & Curettage (D&C) - Abortive procedure where the abortionists inserts a curved knife into the placenta and cuts the baby up into pieces before it is suctioned out. Done in the first trimester.
4. Dilatation & Evacuation - An abortive procedure where an abortionist inserts a pliers-like instrument into the uterus. The abortionist then grabs whatever part of the baby it comes in contact with. Then, by twisting and pulling, the baby is dismembered, killed, and pulled from the womb.
5. Mifepristone or Mifeprex (RU-486) - a pill taken after conception that stops the absorption of Progesterone, a hormone necessary for sustaining pregnancy. Taken with misoprostol that causes the uterus to contract and eject the newly conceived baby.
6. Partial Birth Abortion - An abortive method where all the baby is delivered except the head. With its body outside of the vaginal canal, the doctor then uses a sharp instrument to pierce the back of the skull of the baby and scramble the brains, killing it. Then the baby is fully delivered.
7. Pregnancy Reduction - An abortive method of reducing the number of babies in the womb (twins, triplets, etc.) by injecting a poison into the heart of one or more of the babies while still in the womb.
8. Saline Amniocentesis - An abortive method where a highly concentrated salt solution is injected into the placenta. The baby takes the salt into the lungs as well as swallowing it. After more than an hour, the baby dies and the mother delivers the body a day or two later.
I think it is frankly sick that people would use it as a form of contraception for people too lazy or irresponsible to take precautions against pregnancy. And even just as sick if people would use it just because they were not ready for it, or tey didnt want the baby...
The legal limit is 24 weeks in england and that is shocking cosidering there have been up to 2 reported cases of premature babies being born at 24 weeks and surviving (one only to be "allowed to die" by switching of incubator machine iirc)
Discuss
My views, abortion should be baned except in extreme circumstances
eg
1) Mother has been raped (Termination only before 14 weeks)
2) Serious threat to mothers life
Why? 14 weeks?
<a href='http://www.caringpregnancycenter.net/baby.html' target='_blank'>This is why</a>
<b>EDIT:</b>Further Material which has come to light in this thread.
Methodsof Abortion
1. Abortion - the termination of a pregnancy.
2. Dilitation and Extraction, D&X, (Partial Birth Abortion) - the baby is delivered feet first. The head is left inside the birth canal. A sharp instrument is used to puncture the rear of the skull at the base and the brains are sucked out. Once dead, the baby is fully delivered.
3. Dilatation & Curettage (D&C) - Abortive procedure where the abortionists inserts a curved knife into the placenta and cuts the baby up into pieces before it is suctioned out. Done in the first trimester.
4. Dilatation & Evacuation - An abortive procedure where an abortionist inserts a pliers-like instrument into the uterus. The abortionist then grabs whatever part of the baby it comes in contact with. Then, by twisting and pulling, the baby is dismembered, killed, and pulled from the womb.
5. Mifepristone or Mifeprex (RU-486) - a pill taken after conception that stops the absorption of Progesterone, a hormone necessary for sustaining pregnancy. Taken with misoprostol that causes the uterus to contract and eject the newly conceived baby.
6. Partial Birth Abortion - An abortive method where all the baby is delivered except the head. With its body outside of the vaginal canal, the doctor then uses a sharp instrument to pierce the back of the skull of the baby and scramble the brains, killing it. Then the baby is fully delivered.
7. Pregnancy Reduction - An abortive method of reducing the number of babies in the womb (twins, triplets, etc.) by injecting a poison into the heart of one or more of the babies while still in the womb.
8. Saline Amniocentesis - An abortive method where a highly concentrated salt solution is injected into the placenta. The baby takes the salt into the lungs as well as swallowing it. After more than an hour, the baby dies and the mother delivers the body a day or two later.
I think it is frankly sick that people would use it as a form of contraception for people too lazy or irresponsible to take precautions against pregnancy. And even just as sick if people would use it just because they were not ready for it, or tey didnt want the baby...
The legal limit is 24 weeks in england and that is shocking cosidering there have been up to 2 reported cases of premature babies being born at 24 weeks and surviving (one only to be "allowed to die" by switching of incubator machine iirc)
Comments
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Because of course rape makes a child less of a person. This is one of the biggest flaws in logic I've seen in the pro-life case, and it bothers me every time I see it. If a fetus should be considered a person by all rights, does this mean a rape-born child is something non-human?
Also, no one in their right mind would use abortion as a form of contraception. A woman might be careless the first time, but you can be sure as hell that condoms/birth control is a lot easier to use, and causes a lot less hassle. I would much rather see a fetus terminated than see a baby being born into a family that does not have the time/money/commitment to give the child a loving home, food and clothes.
Just to clarify, I class a fetus as still attached to the mother, while a baby has taken its first breath and is now outside of its mother.
to be faced whith a child brought only through pain andforce might be a pshchological nightmare for a woman that i could not immagine.
If she were raped she would know straght away. She should be able to terminate before having to even feel any phisical effects of the pregnancy, therefore not risking any more shame and physical/ emotional trauma. There would only be a few cells.
It does not make the foetus any less of a person, but would you in her position have the baby?
First, we probably all agree that infanticide is wrong.
Then, all we're really arguing about is when a zygote becomes a child. If you think that it happens early during the pregnancy or at conception, then you're pro-life. If you think that it happens late during the pregnancy or at birth, then you're pro-choice.
Arguments about rape, informing a girl's parents, parental consent, etc. are all peripheral arguments.
Personally, I'm pro-choice.
Or she could carry something like mace, which would prevent the entire situation. If the existence of preventative measures negates the excuse for abortions in consensual sex, why doesnt it for rape?
Also, no one in their right mind would use abortion as a form of contraception. A woman might be careless the first time, but you can be sure as hell that condoms/birth control is a lot easier to use, and causes a lot less hassle. I would much rather see a fetus terminated than see a baby being born into a family that does not have the time/money/commitment to give the child a loving home, food and clothes.
Just to clarify, I class a fetus as still attached to the mother, while a baby has taken its first breath and is now outside of its mother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>Read. Rules. Now.</span>
Have you heard of infanticide?
And abortion as a contraception is being used and has been used,
Have you ever heard of foster care and adoption? Not the best thing in the world, but better than death...
Oh and have you guys looked and read the captions on all the links? Read em, thats why im pro life...
If I was a woman, I would not want to go through the entire experience of giving birth (which is not much fun, I imagine) only to give my child to a foster carer. I would much rather terminate the fetus and have a baby when I could support and care for it.
Abortion may be a form of contraception, but it is in the same class as the morning after pill. It is an emergency contraception, and there is no woman alive who would rather have an abortion than use a condom or go on the pill.
@BloodySloth - Even with a weapon like Mace, it would not be particularly difficult for an able bodied man to overpower a woman. Carrying mace may help if it comes to a struggle, but it certainly does not guarantee anything.
OK, this is one of the most controversial topics of our time, so I'll just remind everyone of the rules. Emphasis on "Be rational". What you find repulsive, cruel, or disgusting might factor into this, but use arguments, not judgements in here.
My main reason for being pro-choice will seem somewhat defeastic to many of you, but I am not aware of a period in human, or even primate existence in which abortions did not take place. A legal ban on abortions will merely move the whole thing into the shady areas of society, where not one, but two lives will be endangered by every 'operation'. To cite another controversial personal choice, regardless of my opinion regarding heroin, I'd also prefer addicts to get the chance of planting their shots in a hygienic environment.
Independently from this, I am convinced of the mementic aspects of human life - in other words, 'being human' is in my perception inevitably connected to (self-) concious interactions with other human beings. We are by definition social beings.
I'll therefore support abortions up to the point at which a concious interaction between the unborn child and its mother can take place.
Those who have the money can arrange an abortion in a country which doesn't outlaw the practice.
Just sayin'.
Or she could carry something like mace, which would prevent the entire situation. If the existence of preventative measures negates the excuse for abortions in consensual sex, why doesnt it for rape? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose this is off topic, but... should we all really have to carry Mace or some sort of other defense weapon out of fear of rape? Also, there are rape cases where you don't exactly have time to reach into your purse to whip it out, aim, and fire.
*edit* outposted by MuffinMan <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You don't know when rape is going to happen. Sex, on the other hand...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, no one in their right mind would use abortion as a form of contraception. A woman might be careless the first time, but you can be sure as hell that condoms/birth control is a lot easier to use, and causes a lot less hassle. I would much rather see a fetus terminated than see a baby being born into a family that does not have the time/money/commitment to give the child a loving home, food and clothes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure it counts as 'contraception' (just to argue semantics, as with the fetus/baby thing) - isn't contraception to prevent pregnancy, whereas this is to prevent the already concieved fetus from developing further past a certain point?
There are also those who cannot get birth control for some reason (underage kids), those who can't afford it and aren't near a planned parenthood, those who haven't had sex ed... you'd be surprised at how many kids seem to go off and have sex without realizing that that's going to result in pregnancy.
Those who have the money tend to be in the stark minority.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am convinced of the mementic aspects of human life - in other words, 'being human' is in my perception inevitably connected to (self-) concious interactions with other human beings. We are by definition social beings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, needless to say, also rings true with me... I still don't understand why people think they can force women to give birth if they don't want to, even if they were irresponsible enough not to use birth control. They need to keep their beliefs to themselves; they are trying to protect something that isn't even aware of its existance until late-term, and even then its mind can't be much removed from that of an animal. A fetus has potential to become human, but it still isn't.
That being said, this is how I feel about abortion. I have discussed what follows with a couple female friends, and we more or less agreed on all that follows, which is the only reason I would feel comfortable saying it.
Unwanted pregnancies can really **** over one's life. Yeah yeah, you could choose to abstain from sex, but who really wants to do that? Just because your not in a position to have child, doesn't mean your not ready to have an intimate relationship with someone. Even people who choose to wait until marriage, aren't necessarily in position to have a child. Clearly most of people will be using contraceptives in these situations. The problem is they don't always work, Condoms break, people forget to take the pill one day, etc. Safe sex is not really 100 percent safe.
Not to mention instances of impaired judgment. You can call people that put themselves in that situation any name you want, but I can't. I've been far to close to that myself. Drinking and drugs are a major part of most of my friends social lives. Not the entirety of them by any means, we're not junkies, and probably not alcoholics (being in a college environment can make it hard to draw the line between acceptable and excessive drinking....not an excuse but its there), but its a major part none the less. We're not bad people though. Actually having friends from most points on the spectrum, from moral abstainers, to ones who just don't care for the booze, to occasional users, to me, to a few people that I couldn't classify as anything but a complete junkie, has really made me realize that these behaviors have nothing to do with being a good or bad person. The most zealous moral abstainer I've ever spent time with was also one of worst people I've ever met. Completely unloyal to his friends (and we did accept his views on such things, didn't try to pressure him into to doing anything), very arrogant, very unaccepting, very condescending. Not a mass murderer by any means, but not a good person either. Also some of the nicest people I've ever met were abstainers. I've seen the same thing through out the entire range of possible opinions on the matter. What I'm trying to get at here, is that just because someone drank too much one night, did something he or she normally wouldn't have, or that they deserve to suffer for this mistake. Its in my group of friends (not just with sex), and yeah, it just makes you realize how much the lines "let he without sin cast the first stone" or "judge not, lest ye be judged" really mean.
Getting back on track though... Suddenly your pregnant, and you know that your not in any position to take care of it. At this point your only two options are adoption, and an abortion. Personally if I was the father I would urge my partner to put the child up for adoption, but i would defiantly leave the final decision up to her. Nine months is a long time to deal with something. If your going to school or college still, you've got nine months of trying to fit doctors appointments, and the emotional and physical effects of being pregnant, while still keeping your grades up, or dropping out. Many jobs become difficult or impossible in the later months of being pregnant.
I find the destroying of a potential life (I think the whole debate over when its a person is rather ridiculous, something that can never be really be satisfactorily settled) somewhat distasteful. At the same time, how much of your own life can reasonably be sacrificed for that potential one? And how much of someone else's are you entitled to demand? I can't answer these questions. This is why abortion has to be legal (well this and the assorted health risks with it once it has to go underground, which it did, and would again)...this is a decision that each person has to make for themselves.
Im sorry for the outburst, Nem0 Ill try to keep my honest opinions and shock to myself.
Signature-updated-for-the-truth <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Abortion should be a choice <i>until the fetus is a viable baby</i>. Meaning that, if you remove it, you shouldn't kill it if it has the possibility for survival.
If the baby is posing a danger to the mother, should she give birth, and the baby is already a viable baby, then it should be removed <i>but not killed</i>. That makes no sense to me. Doctors remove live babies and then kill them when the babies can still survive on their own, that's just disgusting. How is that not homicide?
And on a personal note, I demand that a mod remove Steel Troll's signature. My vocabulary isn't nearly comprehensive enough to find words to properly describe how repulsive that is.
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I would disagree. Just because some is legal doesn't mean thats its alright. For example there are a lot fo legal drugs out there including some extermly powerful halicinogenics. These can be far more dangerous than many illegal drugs. Are they alright to use where the illegal ones aren't?
Same goes for illegal things. Just because its illegal doesn't mean its wrong.
Anyone who bases their entire moral code on what is legal or what is not (or feels that their moral code <i>should</i> be law) I think has a big problem. A society that is unable to look at their laws and question those laws morality is walking down a very dangerous road. A law can be moral or immoral, but it shouldnt decide what morality is for those who live under it.
edit:<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And on a personal note, I demand that a mod remove Steel Troll's signature. My vocabulary isn't nearly comprehensive enough to find words to properly describe how repulsive that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree if it wasn't for my unwavering support of free speach. It is pretty offensive...for me the problem would be getting a response past the filters in a form that would still be readable...yeah, should pass on that...
That is infanticide. Just because it is classed as a foetus, doesnt mean there are not current laws which protect the foetus after 24 weeks till the time of birth. For themuffinman to say what he said is very freaky....basicaly saying in his views the mother could terminate at that late stage. In which case i do not think he should be allowed to make decisions about children and termination.
EDIT & OT: It was removed. I thought sigs were ment for free speach so long as they contained no nudity/ racial slurr or cussing. I therefore moved my comment from these boards to my sig, had i known they are not meant for flames ( i swear i have seen many flame wars run on sigs eg the ban/ unban etc) i would not have updted my sig.
On topic:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Better to have a few illegal abortions at the knowing risk of the mother, than have millions of abortions due to it being legalised, therefore making women think "Its legal, it must be ok to kill my son/daughter to be"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aside from it being debatable that legalization will significantly increase the numbers of something as utterly physically and psychically taxing as an abortion, you severely underestimate people's morallic capabilities in extreme situations such as this one obviously is. The bond between mother and child is empirically proven to be the strongest emotional connection a mammal can experience. Do you earnestly believe a significant number of women will leave decisions over this bond up to a government? The whole history of the successless 'reordering of family' from St.Just to Stalin speaks differently.
Themuffinman's point is that he isn't the one who makes the decision; the would-be mother should be.
Themuffinman's point is that he isn't the one who makes the decision; the would-be mother should be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoever makes the decision, i think it would sill be classed as infanticide. Especially since babies can be removed from the mothers womb after 24 weeks and survive.
I just cant beleive you are defending blatant infanticide, nomatter wether the mother deems or whoever...
EDIT & OT: Nem0, there are no rules about the content of sigs, the only rule <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Content. Use common sense here. I haven't seen any violations yet, so congratulations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->.So, could they be updated <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Themuffinman's point is that he isn't the one who makes the decision; the would-be mother should be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I have to agree with themuffinman. If a woman can rationalize the decision of killing her baby to herself, then that's her decision, and no one should stop her. If my girlfriend got pregnant, I wouldn't try to talk her into getting an abortion (I do think the act itself rather unpleasant); at the same time, I wouldn't try to talk her out of getting an abortion if she wanted one.
Then I have to agree with themuffinman. If a woman can rationalize the decision of killing her baby to herself, then that's her decision, and no one should stop her. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! Some one should stop her!! Its Murder! especialy after 24 weeks!!!
/OT: And yes, im quite shocked, firstly at the spitfire/Swat like response to remove my humorous jab and attempt at comedy (ok, ok Flame... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and at the attention my first few Discussion thrreads are receiving. Continue
Well, when making a thread in the discussions forum, you shouldn't be surprised when someone takes an opposite opinion. (:
I guess <s>AvengerX</s> "Ninja of the Night" didn't expect anyone to support polygamy, either, but they did.
I was going to edit in something about the infanticide comment, but Nem beat me.
Ill adress your points Nem0..
* Social arguments such as the unworthy living conditions of many 'accidental' children.
I previously stated that there are many foster homes/ families who are unable to have children/ or want to help (adoption) who are willing to take these babies in a much more stable environment.
* Mementic-sociological considerations.
A what? No such thing, your translator fails you, or im just tired and didnt copy paste it to Dictionary.com well...
* Biophilosophical questions regarding a fetus' status as seperate organism (what you ignore in the 24 weeks example you cite is the tremendous technical effort in bringing these children over, and the often tremendous damage they take nonetheless).
Well <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most babies are born about 40 weeks after the first day of their mother's last menstrual period. But about 10 percent of babies arrive sooner. A baby born more than three weeks before his or her due date is considered premature.
Premature babies have less time to fully develop and mature in the womb. As a result, they're often at increased risk of medical and developmental problems. One of the biggest problems facing premature infants is underdeveloped lungs.
Your doctor may try to delay your baby's birth if you go into labor earlier than around 34 weeks into your pregnancy (preterm labor). Even a few extra days in the womb can give your baby's lungs a chance to become more mature. But sometimes, in spite of every effort, your baby may be born early.
Fortunately, the outlook for premature infants has improved dramatically in recent years. Great advances have been made in the care of premature infants, and even babies born as early as 23 weeks now have a good chance of survival. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
* The lack of a working alternative strategy.
To what? Abrtion? Did i not mention foster care earlier? How bout adoption?They care/ give a home to millions of babies, who grow up to be normal, healthy humans.
Lose the American scope for a second. Your opposition to abortion is global - and the existence of <i>working</i> foster care or similiar networks is a luxury not even all of the United States can support - consider that such a system also requires a certain amount of control over the parents.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A what? No such thing, your translator fails you, or im just tired and didnt copy paste it to Dictionary.com well...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting. Apparently it's written without the 'n' in English. If you aren't familiar with the memetic theory, <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics' target='_blank'>click.</a> In short, it assumes that human heritage is not limited to genetic (biological) information, but also draws from an inseperable memetic (social) component.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even babies born as early as 23 weeks now have a good chance of survival.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not challenge this at all. I discussed the conditions of said survival.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To what? Abrtion? Did i not mention foster care earlier? How bout adoption?They care/ give a home to millions of babies, who grow up to be normal, healthy humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was referring to my first post. Abortions happen - on a surprisinly large scale - in all cultures, independently from legal frameworks. There is no valid alternative strategy if it means that a sizeable amount of women are just pushed into the hands of irresponsible profit mongers.