I put Jedi down on the government "lets get the people to fill in a form so we can best manipulate them" poll a few years back. Starwars is not only a book, but its a film... and the best bit - Its in colour, so it must be true!
EDIT: Can you believe some people think that natural selection\ or evolution are incorrect because god created the earth 6,000 years ago? Wow creationalism, dunno where to start with that one :-P. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe God created the universe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As do I jabba. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not believe that god created the univers. Religion is a illution created by men for men and women.
Ok, everyone out! out out out. You kids have had your fun, now its time to take your rambunctious little game to the OT discussions forum where it belongs and I can avoid it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 23 2005, 05:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 23 2005, 05:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, everyone out! out out out. You kids have had your fun, now its time to take your rambunctious little game to the OT discussions forum where it belongs and I can avoid it.
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why stopping a discussion when i just have started?
<i>First an evil paradoxon, than quotes and replies:</i>
The question if a goodlike being created our universe leads to the "matrix problem" (its called different, you can just compare it to "the matrix" or "13th Floor" very well). Like any man made macine could "think" of its creator being a good (or like any baby could think their parents are goods because they created/own all they can notice), <b>everyone can make the theory that this universe only exists virtually inside/besides another universe or because of some being that created it.</b> The problem with this theory is that it absolutely can not be prooven right or wrong inside the own universe because everything inside this universe could be manipulated from the other universe or from the creator of it to manipulate the theory the way HE wants it to be for everyone inside this universe. Now there might even be the possibility to travel in between the universes, to meet the creater of your own universe, and even come back to your own, the images of "sliders" "heaven" "Virtuall reality" show what i mean with traveling. <b>As a cristian, to prove if heaven/Hell/God exists, you could just kill yourself (thats why religion is used in wars so much) and see if your theory about another universe/existance is right or wrong. But this is not only a risk, its a vicious circle and a paradoxon!!!!!!!!</b> (btw In some "religions" you dont have to "kill" yourself to talk to the deaths or the creater of the universe, some religions also "like" drugs or telephones/macines that teleport you "back to reality".) If you "kill/slide" yourself to find out there is absolutely nothing after life youre now void, you are no more. <b>If you "kill/slide" yourself to find out heaven exists, or whatever kind of afterlife you believe in, and you might even met the creater of the/your universe, or who ever is responsible than Your theory got proven right BUT now youre in big trouble if you think further:</b> Now that you know there is ONE universe/creater besides/above the universeyou came from, there might even be ONE MORE universe/creater besides/above the universe you traveled to. And now you have to decide to "kill/slide" yourself again, to find out, or not. Now lets think you used a lot of tools/drugs to talk to deaths/creaters travel to universes of creaters, or just between parallel universes of the same creater, or just travel without finding universe creaters, even travel back to the universe you started from just to tell others that there are parallel worlds or universe ceaters without getting brain washed from creators to not tell what you saw, you will end in the worlds classic logical <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes' target='_blank'>paradoxoes</a> or just become void in your next travel. You simply can not tell FOR SURE if there is something measurable besides this universe no matter if you think you have visited/seen/proven it! And you cant tell how many universe creaters might be out there (or if any) no matter how many you might have met (if any), too. <b>What stays are theories about it, and they will stay theories.</b>
<i>now the replies:</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if evolution is correct, how come humans are the only creatures that have the ability to think, even though our brain is virtually identical (in structure and function) to that of other animals?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, <b>our brain is not so virtually identical to that of other animals</b>, just slightly identical to apes and aminals whose genetic code is more than 80% like ours! The major difference between human brains and "average animal bains" is that we have, using computrers to explain, more "Ram" , more "HDD" and most animal brains are mostly "rom", so animals just dont have as much learning capacity and are more pre-programmed like a calculator, the closer to "humanoid apes" the more learning apacity. Its like evoluting from a calculator to a PC. As extreme example jellfish have no brain, thoose animals work like simple toy-robots. <b>Animals have the amility to think</b>, you can teach or train intelligent ones behaviour and even see how they learn ANY behaviour from each other. Most mammals can be teached to react on hand signs, a dozen mammals can learn/teach to use any simple tool by himself (to reach food) and half a dozen can learn/teach and use (!) a human language based on signs with simple grammar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bible is a guide to science, its a guide to life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I so agree, dont take the bible literally, you can only fail in simplest logic, but this book is still a nice "social life guide".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering the earth has been dated to around 6 billion years old i think it was.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like 4,5 billion years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->evolution as the origin of species (macro-evolution) is so shakey its barely got a leg to stand on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Evolution is a THEORY like the theory that the earth is round and circling the sun and like the Theory of Relativity. Such a Theory has to prove itself untill it falls (!) by another theory that explains the same thing a bit better. The three mentioned theories above now stood quite a long time, but 100 years is not that much time. Noone knows if this "proving theories" (nothing to do with evolution) some time will end in one big universal theory or end in a bunch of theories with clear borders. <b>You can make models that use micro-evolution to test macro-evolution. For example testing how many generations if would need to evolve a human eye out of some naked skin cell by natural selection. That time matches the Earth history/archeology/age really well.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone who believes animals spawned from a "primordial soup" and became intelligent, free-thinking creatures is essentially utilizing the same amount of faith as your average creationist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Scientists dont use belief and faith when using scientific methods! They use experiments</b> and most time try to prove that their own theories <u>might be wrong</u> to show that they can stand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet they claim this fact-lacking and decidedly flawed theory as a scientific fact. Fairly arrogant for science, which is meant to be about observation, not all-but pure speculation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now its time to use our dictionary: <u><b>Scients dont have <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=facts' target='_blank'>facts</a>, only <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theories' target='_blank'>Theories</a></b>, there is no such thing as "<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=scientific%20facts' target='_blank'>scientific facts</a>" in <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science' target='_blank'>science</a>, that thing just exists in <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=creationism' target='_blank'>creationism</a>. A fact is that if you google for "scientific facts" all you get is discussions about creationism VS evolution and barely a link to science only!</u> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Theories are used to <u>explain</u> facts, that have been measured. Creationism is based on belief and vision.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: One more thing, there is no shame in removing creationism from the picture and simply disagreeing with evolution. Just because it's accepted, it doesn't mean it's proven or true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It has been proven many times by experiments that could have made the theory of evolution fall down, but those experiments failed in that. There still might be an experiment that could prove evolution or any other theory to be wrong. There always has to be discusion, especially in science.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am told that the creationist theory actually does have facts backing it up<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> right. What was the <u>experiment</u>, that shows the earth is 6000 years old, again? Or the experiment that shows the Grand Canyon could be made during a 7 day flood? It takes millions of years to carve that stone, there is just no way to do that in less than 1000 years. Or that there are no fosils older than 6000 years? We have found older ones.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, a long while back a scientist shot lightning into a sterile glass jar containing a mixture of gasses believed to be similar to the Earth's atmosphere when organisms first appeared. Where there were no bacteria, some spontaneously developed. OoooOoOoo, energy causing the building blocks of life to assemble in a meaningful way, scary stuff! We do nothing different when we create computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> once again, scientists dont just believe stuf, they TEST IT. there were no bacteria but there are TONS of bigger molcules in space, for example even alcohol, small sugars and some simple amino acids. Now guess what simple (!) DNA is basically made off, 4 averagely simple amino acids and a chain of simple sugar weld together with alcohol. (dont quote me on that, I kept it simple for creationists to understand <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) There is the possibility do make some random DNA without any meaning or purpose, and now, without further meaning, some of that DNA got the ability to clone itself while others did not. Cloning self is basically just what DNA does till now. Its only scary for creationists because this theory means that there is no meaning or purpose in life, living stuff could just came randomly and could come everywere or can just be completely different. Creationists fear that loosing a meaning in the living by making theories that there is no purpose in life itself may cause a total anarchy or that it makes us god without caring for what we might do, right? <b>Compared to god, who kills innocent egyptian childs to free their parents slaves (that biblical curses story) and killig all bt 2 of each in the greatest flood ever (that story about redemption, that you can not take literally), humans in general actually care for what they create.</b>
Creationism is not using scientific methods, its not science, its based on belief like religion. (nothing bad in just believing whatever you want to believe)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, why do people still follow these beliefs, even in the knowledge that they caused almost every war before the 1800s.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Religion barely causes war (depends on the religion, there are many peacefuller religions than catholics), religion was more abused for it. Were for example does the bible say you shall go to war, take others land/goods/whatever and even kill other people? Religion is a tool to make soldiers to do what you want, and not just till 1800, its still a tool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mean how amazing is it that God can create just a large explosion and know that all of this would come of it, thats even more wonderful to me than it just suddenly appearing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is that experiment that shows that matter can spontanuously appear out of energy, and spontanuously dissappear.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Guys please, i wanted to read interesting replies about this game that was posted. Can you please drop the whole other stuff and move it to the off topic forum. I don't much care what about what happened in the begining so please just discuss the game.
Is it wrong that the only things that matter to me is myself, my wife and my son?
Is it wrong that I just don't care whether there is a god, or that I don't care what will happen to me when I die?
Is it wrong that I don't care how the Earth was made.
Is it wrong that I don't give to charities who claim to help the third world?
Is it wrong that though out my childhood I was verbally abused, beaten, stabbed, had a brick try to be implanted in my brain and run over by a car by protestants, simply for being born to a catholic family?
Is it wrong that this made me renounce religion as a farce, and disbelieve what I was brought up with to the extent of cursing at a priest during mass.
Goodness. I seem to bring controversy wherever I go. ^^ A few screenshots from the "other" Natural Selection game can stir up quite a bit of debate!
<b>So...How 'bout that science game, eh? Anyone else ever been to the St. Louis Science Center?</b> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: By the bye, I'm all for civilized debate on matters of faith and religion. After all, theology has been described as <i>fides quaerens intellectum</i>, or "faith seeking reason." I just think debate should take place in <a href='http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50' target='_blank'>a forum dedicated to religious discussion</a> or at least the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=28' target='_blank'>Natural Selection off-topic discussions forum</a>. Debate on religious topics should not devolve (pardon the pun) into a flame war; I think any other result is impossible in this setting.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-Cj the Dj+Apr 22 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cj the Dj @ Apr 22 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if evolution is correct, how come humans are the only creatures that have the ability to think, even though our brain is virtually identical (in structure and function) to that of other animals?
i had some 20 more instances of how evolution is incorrrect on paper, but i threw it away a while ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> GET THIS NEWS TO BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE COMMUNITY IMMEDIATELY.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cj the Dj+Apr 22 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cj the Dj @ Apr 22 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if evolution is correct, how come humans are the only creatures that have the ability to think, even though our brain is virtually identical (in structure and function) to that of other animals?
i had some 20 more instances of how evolution is incorrrect on paper, but i threw it away a while ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for fallacy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ollj+Apr 23 2005, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Apr 23 2005, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was the <u>experiment</u>, that shows the earth is 6000 years old, again? Or the experiment that shows the Grand Canyon could be made during a 7 day flood? It takes millions of years to carve that stone, there is just no way to do that in less than 1000 years. Or that there are no fosils older than 6000 years? We have found older ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have found older ones?
How can you be sure that the fossils are older than 6000 years? The methods of deciding the age of a fossil is very uncertain.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkFrost+Apr 23 2005, 12:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ Apr 23 2005, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is it wrong that though out my childhood I was verbally abused, beaten, stabbed, had a brick try to be implanted in my brain and run over by a car by protestants, simply for being born to a catholic family? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The actions of religious groups dont give proof to the validity of a belief. Their actions while terrible are their actions, and they are ultimately responsible for them.
Though I do agree with you to some extent that I think organised religion is spreading one small groups beliefs to the majority.
To all those people asking for this subject be dropped, im really enjoying this thread, especially because everyone seems to be calmly discussing their views and opinions.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Eruyomo+Apr 23 2005, 12:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eruyomo @ Apr 23 2005, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We have found older ones?
How can you be sure that the fossils are older than 6000 years? The methods of deciding the age of a fossil is very uncertain. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're gonna make the universe 6,000 years ago, why not make it look like it was created 6,000 years ago? Why go through all the effort to make it look old, when leaving it look young would be more in line with the Romans exhortation that all of nature demonstrates god's existence and glory?
Why create fossils in the ground--they don't point to a 6,000 year old universe? Why create radioactive isotopes partially decayed--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe? Why create starlight en route from stars more than 6,000 light years away--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe? Why make animals mutatable--that doesn't point to the genesis account? Why create some designs suboptimal--that doesn't point to the glory of god? Why create evidence of evolutionary loss of limbs in whales and snakes--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe? Why create stone tools which appear to predate the creation of the universe--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe?
More importantly, why not just make a universe fully formed and put people in it? Why not do things in a manner consistent with Romans, and make the universe actually point towards your existence? Geometrically shaped continents? That would point to god. Non-mutable organisms? Different genetic information molecule types? All radio-isotope dating pointing to 6,000 years of age? Only starlight available from stars less than 6,000 light years away? Languages appearing unrelated to each other,and no evidence of foreign languages predating the tower of babel?
Wouldn't that all jive with the Romans exhortation that god's existence is proclaimed in all his creation? Why should god's existence only point to his existence to the uneducated?
<!--QuoteBegin-Ollj+Apr 23 2005, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Apr 23 2005, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 23 2005, 05:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 23 2005, 05:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, everyone out! out out out. You kids have had your fun, now its time to take your rambunctious little game to the OT discussions forum where it belongs and I can avoid it.
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why stopping a discussion when i just have started? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh God people, go <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89840&hl=' target='_blank'>here</a> if you really want to have all your questions about macro and micro-evolution answered.
People complain about the discussion forum, but this is exactly why we have one; so debates like this don't end up in otherwise harmless threads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why.
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Apr 23 2005, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Apr 23 2005, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why should god's existence only point to his existence to the uneducated?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why didn't God create a bunch robots that couldn't do a bad thing and followed his every wish?
If God's existence was proved we wouldn't have a choice to belive in God or not and that would make us kind of like robots.
God gave us the free will because he didn't want a bunch of robots that was programmed to believe in him and do every thing he told them to, it would be boring and he would get the same passion from us humans as he get's today. If someone choose to believe in God, he knows is our own choice and I think it make's him happy.
(By the way, I didn't say that the universe is 6000 years old, I only said that fossils doesn't prove anything)
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 23 2005, 12:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 23 2005, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ollj+Apr 23 2005, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Apr 23 2005, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 23 2005, 05:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 23 2005, 05:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, everyone out! out out out. You kids have had your fun, now its time to take your rambunctious little game to the OT discussions forum where it belongs and I can avoid it.
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why stopping a discussion when i just have started? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh God people, go <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89840&hl=' target='_blank'>here</a> if you really want to have all your questions about macro and micro-evolution answered.
People complain about the discussion forum, but this is exactly why we have one; so debates like this don't end up in otherwise harmless threads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you people blind or something?
<!--QuoteBegin-CyberPitz+Apr 23 2005, 06:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CyberPitz @ Apr 23 2005, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing that boggles my mind. God created the universe according to you christians. But who/what created god OoOooooOoO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says God needs to be created? Who says God has human-like thought?
And if you don't believe that God created the universe, then you either believe in a beginning scenario or an infinite scenario. <b>Beginning Scenario</b> Why did the universe begin when it did? Why did everything get formed perfectly? What was there before the universe? <b>Infinite Universe</b> If the universe has lasted forever, then that means the stars have too, yet they do not have an infinite amount of energy. Do I need to say anything else to show the flaws of this one? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only logical scientific begining of the universe I have seen was the Braneworld Scenario. If you want I can post more information on it. But even it has unanswerable questions.
EDIT - Sorry Sky, just had to set some things straight.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cj the Dj+Apr 22 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cj the Dj @ Apr 22 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if evolution is correct, how come humans are the only creatures that have the ability to think <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> WTH? rofl...
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 23 2005, 12:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 23 2005, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Theres alot of science behind the creationist side as well <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope... there really isn't.
Creationism says "I have the answer," and tries to find a proof for the answer. Science says "I don't know the answer," and looks at the evidence to find out the answer.
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
<!--QuoteBegin-CyberPitz+Apr 23 2005, 06:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CyberPitz @ Apr 23 2005, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing that boggles my mind. God created the universe according to you christians. But who/what created god OoOooooOoO <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I have a god, a ruler, a maker.. that is someone I can understand.. and has the mental capacity that I have, I think I would just be a bit afraid.
The POINT is to have a god we cannot understand, because theres so many things that we cannot comprehend. It's been said that humans only use about a third of their brainpower during their lifetime. The other 2/3rds? Some may say more knowledge.. okay, whatever. I believe those 2/3rds are more of a supernatural composition.
This small thread on someone going to a festival, turned into an evolutionary debate. Only in the NS forums. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And by the way Minstrel.. you ask a lot of important questions there, many of them being Why this, why that. But they all have the same answer.
Everything God has done, has a reason. Why light shows blue as blue, and why doesn't blue really look like a red? There could be more colors? Theres so much uncomprehendable stuff out there.. But God knows all of it, and theres a reason he did all of that.. you can make finding it out your job, but I'd just rather concentrate on the giver.. not the gifts.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Apr 23 2005, 11:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Apr 23 2005, 11:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ya urinalcake, when god answers your prayers, PRAISE JESUS! When he doesn't... god works in mysterious ways.
Confirmation bias ftw? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, yea that pretty much sums it up. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for the natural selection, you may be surprised to know, at the time Natural Selection was being released (1.0) there was another (warfare based mod) being released (for RTCW engine?) at the same time. I remember trying to go to the NS site, and always ending up at the wrong game site, though now I think that other mod has long since died off, anyone else remember it?
<!--QuoteBegin-aeroripper+Apr 23 2005, 11:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aeroripper @ Apr 23 2005, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Apr 23 2005, 11:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Apr 23 2005, 11:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ya urinalcake, when god answers your prayers, PRAISE JESUS! When he doesn't... god works in mysterious ways.
Confirmation bias ftw? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, yea that pretty much sums it up. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To everyone above this post (and I mean EVERYONE, no matter which side of this you are on) you guys are frigging lame.
<!--QuoteBegin-R e n e g a d e+Apr 24 2005, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (R e n e g a d e @ Apr 24 2005, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for the natural selection, you may be surprised to know, at the time Natural Selection was being released (1.0) there was another (warfare based mod) being released (for RTCW engine?) at the same time. I remember trying to go to the NS site, and always ending up at the wrong game site, though now I think that other mod has long since died off, anyone else remember it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then there was the AvP game with the subtitle of Natural Selection. Good ol' Charlie C got the trademark first so they had to change it! A humble little mod team making Fox change the name. Warms the heart it does. USPTO ftw in this instance!
Disclaimer: I think intellectual property is a pretty broken system.
<!--QuoteBegin-Amped!+Apr 24 2005, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amped! @ Apr 24 2005, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Infinite Universe</b> If the universe has lasted forever, then that means the stars have too, yet they do not have an infinite amount of energy. Do I need to say anything else to show the flaws of this one? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In a closed system the amount of energy always remains the same (remember matter is a form of energy).
The Universe is a closed system.
To everyone else, you cant prove your beliefs either way, especially from the religious point of view (God giving proof of his existance would take away free will).
Indeed, Jabba. I present to the rest of you, this: <a href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/babelfish.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/babelfish.shtml</a> It gets to God in the middle.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cj the Dj+Apr 22 2005, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cj the Dj @ Apr 22 2005, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if evolution is correct, how come humans are the only creatures that have the ability to think, even though our brain is virtually identical (in structure and function) to that of other animals?
i had some 20 more instances of how evolution is incorrrect on paper, but i threw it away a while ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quite simple. It has been shown that there is a direct connection between the surface area of the brain and intellectual capacity. Most animals have a smaller brain, which begets a smaller surface area. Cimps, however, have brains extremely close to the size of the human brain, so why aren't they intelligent? It is because the surface of their brain is smooth, they do not have the furrows and fold that are found in the human brain, and that produce that kind of "ball of spaghetti" look.
Now, why haven't other creatures evolved these folds? Pure chance. Evolution is based on survival of the fittest. And survival of the fittest can be drastically affected by chance. Somewhere in the evolutionary history of man, we split off from chimps because one, possibly more, individuals had, by pure chance, a larger brain, which, to fit in their skull, had to fold slightly. When these animals procreated with others, the offspring had the same affect, only amplified slightly. This line of descendants survived because their higher intelligence allowed them to make use of their environment in new and unexpected ways, letting them fend off creatures much larger than themselves.
Why this hasn't occured once again in chimps, or some other animal, to produce another intelligent species, is also chance. What can happen, can also not happen. If it happened once, it probably will again, but we haven't seen it yet, or, if it has already happened, it hasn't evolved enough yet for us to detect it. Also, if it has happened since, the individuals could died off by chance, an infection, or a mortal wound. Evolution does proceed logically, but it is also governed by chance.
While we may not have proof that this is, indeed, what happened, it is an excellent theory, and a plausible one, which provides a scientific answer to your question.
And, back OT, the current system of intellectual property is pretty borked. While we will need some kind of system to govern it as long as we assign monetary value to it, there are certainly much more ideal system than the one we have now. We also need to rethink what we consider intellectual property. Right now, patents are being approved which, in my opinion, shouldn't be. There are some things that are owned collectively, by the entire human race. Patents of the human genome come to mind.
EDIT: Can you believe some people think that natural selection\ or evolution are incorrect because god created the earth 6,000 years ago? Wow creationalism, dunno where to start with that one :-P. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe God created the universe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As do I jabba. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not believe that god created the univers. Religion is a illution created by men for men and women. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Illusion not Illution. And you can believe whatever you want as can I. Trying to downgrade my religion isn't going to make your argument any stronger. Ill just leave it at that.
Comments
EDIT: Can you believe some people think that natural selection\ or evolution are incorrect because god created the earth 6,000 years ago? Wow creationalism, dunno where to start with that one :-P. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe God created the universe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As do I jabba. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not believe that god created the univers. Religion is a illution created by men for men and women.
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU!
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why stopping a discussion when i just have started?
<i>First an evil paradoxon, than quotes and replies:</i>
The question if a goodlike being created our universe leads to the "matrix problem" (its called different, you can just compare it to "the matrix" or "13th Floor" very well).
Like any man made macine could "think" of its creator being a good (or like any baby could think their parents are goods because they created/own all they can notice),
<b>everyone can make the theory that this universe only exists virtually inside/besides another universe or because of some being that created it.</b>
The problem with this theory is that it absolutely can not be prooven right or wrong inside the own universe because everything inside this universe could be manipulated from the other universe or from the creator of it to manipulate the theory the way HE wants it to be for everyone inside this universe.
Now there might even be the possibility to travel in between the universes, to meet the creater of your own universe, and even come back to your own, the images of "sliders" "heaven" "Virtuall reality" show what i mean with traveling.
<b>As a cristian, to prove if heaven/Hell/God exists, you could just kill yourself (thats why religion is used in wars so much) and see if your theory about another universe/existance is right or wrong.
But this is not only a risk, its a vicious circle and a paradoxon!!!!!!!!</b>
(btw In some "religions" you dont have to "kill" yourself to talk to the deaths or the creater of the universe, some religions also "like" drugs or telephones/macines that teleport you "back to reality".)
If you "kill/slide" yourself to find out there is absolutely nothing after life youre now void, you are no more.
<b>If you "kill/slide" yourself to find out heaven exists, or whatever kind of afterlife you believe in, and you might even met the creater of the/your universe, or who ever is responsible than Your theory got proven right BUT now youre in big trouble if you think further:</b>
Now that you know there is ONE universe/creater besides/above the universeyou came from, there might even be ONE MORE universe/creater besides/above the universe you traveled to. And now you have to decide to "kill/slide" yourself again, to find out, or not.
Now lets think you used a lot of tools/drugs to talk to deaths/creaters travel to universes of creaters, or just between parallel universes of the same creater, or just travel without finding universe creaters, even travel back to the universe you started from just to tell others that there are parallel worlds or universe ceaters without getting brain washed from creators to not tell what you saw, you will end in the worlds classic logical <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes' target='_blank'>paradoxoes</a> or just become void in your next travel.
You simply can not tell FOR SURE if there is something measurable besides this universe no matter if you think you have visited/seen/proven it!
And you cant tell how many universe creaters might be out there (or if any) no matter how many you might have met (if any), too.
<b>What stays are theories about it, and they will stay theories.</b>
<i>now the replies:</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if evolution is correct, how come humans are the only creatures that have the ability to think, even though our brain is virtually identical (in structure and function) to that of other animals?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, <b>our brain is not so virtually identical to that of other animals</b>, just slightly identical to apes and aminals whose genetic code is more than 80% like ours!
The major difference between human brains and "average animal bains" is that we have, using computrers to explain, more "Ram" , more "HDD" and most animal brains are mostly "rom", so animals just dont have as much learning capacity and are more pre-programmed like a calculator, the closer to "humanoid apes" the more learning apacity. Its like evoluting from a calculator to a PC.
As extreme example jellfish have no brain, thoose animals work like simple toy-robots.
<b>Animals have the amility to think</b>, you can teach or train intelligent ones behaviour and even see how they learn ANY behaviour from each other. Most mammals can be teached to react on hand signs, a dozen mammals can learn/teach to use any simple tool by himself (to reach food) and half a dozen can learn/teach and use (!) a human language based on signs with simple grammar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bible is a guide to science, its a guide to life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I so agree, dont take the bible literally, you can only fail in simplest logic, but this book is still a nice "social life guide".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering the earth has been dated to around 6 billion years old i think it was.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like 4,5 billion years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->evolution as the origin of species (macro-evolution) is so shakey its barely got a leg to stand on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evolution is a THEORY like the theory that the earth is round and circling the sun and like the Theory of Relativity.
Such a Theory has to prove itself untill it falls (!) by another theory that explains the same thing a bit better.
The three mentioned theories above now stood quite a long time, but 100 years is not that much time.
Noone knows if this "proving theories" (nothing to do with evolution) some time will end in one big universal theory or end in a bunch of theories with clear borders.
<b>You can make models that use micro-evolution to test macro-evolution. For example testing how many generations if would need to evolve a human eye out of some naked skin cell by natural selection. That time matches the Earth history/archeology/age really well.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone who believes animals spawned from a "primordial soup" and became intelligent, free-thinking creatures is essentially utilizing the same amount of faith as your average creationist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Scientists dont use belief and faith when using scientific methods! They use experiments</b> and most time try to prove that their own theories <u>might be wrong</u> to show that they can stand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet they claim this fact-lacking and decidedly flawed theory as a scientific fact. Fairly arrogant for science, which is meant to be about observation, not all-but pure speculation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now its time to use our dictionary:
<u><b>Scients dont have <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=facts' target='_blank'>facts</a>, only <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theories' target='_blank'>Theories</a></b>, there is no such thing as "<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=scientific%20facts' target='_blank'>scientific facts</a>" in <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science' target='_blank'>science</a>, that thing just exists in <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=creationism' target='_blank'>creationism</a>.
A fact is that if you google for "scientific facts" all you get is discussions about creationism VS evolution and barely a link to science only!</u> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Theories are used to <u>explain</u> facts, that have been measured. Creationism is based on belief and vision.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: One more thing, there is no shame in removing creationism from the picture and simply disagreeing with evolution. Just because it's accepted, it doesn't mean it's proven or true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been proven many times by experiments that could have made the theory of evolution fall down, but those experiments failed in that.
There still might be an experiment that could prove evolution or any other theory to be wrong.
There always has to be discusion, especially in science.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am told that the creationist theory actually does have facts backing it up<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
right.
What was the <u>experiment</u>, that shows the earth is 6000 years old, again?
Or the experiment that shows the Grand Canyon could be made during a 7 day flood? It takes millions of years to carve that stone, there is just no way to do that in less than 1000 years.
Or that there are no fosils older than 6000 years? We have found older ones.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, a long while back a scientist shot lightning into a sterile glass jar containing a mixture of gasses believed to be similar to the Earth's atmosphere when organisms first appeared. Where there were no bacteria, some spontaneously developed. OoooOoOoo, energy causing the building blocks of life to assemble in a meaningful way, scary stuff! We do nothing different when we create computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
once again, scientists dont just believe stuf, they TEST IT.
there were no bacteria but there are TONS of bigger molcules in space, for example even alcohol, small sugars and some simple amino acids.
Now guess what simple (!) DNA is basically made off, 4 averagely simple amino acids and a chain of simple sugar weld together with alcohol. (dont quote me on that, I kept it simple for creationists to understand <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
There is the possibility do make some random DNA without any meaning or purpose, and now, without further meaning, some of that DNA got the ability to clone itself while others did not. Cloning self is basically just what DNA does till now.
Its only scary for creationists because this theory means that there is no meaning or purpose in life, living stuff could just came randomly and could come everywere or can just be completely different.
Creationists fear that loosing a meaning in the living by making theories that there is no purpose in life itself may cause a total anarchy or that it makes us god without caring for what we might do, right?
<b>Compared to god, who kills innocent egyptian childs to free their parents slaves (that biblical curses story) and killig all bt 2 of each in the greatest flood ever (that story about redemption, that you can not take literally), humans in general actually care for what they create.</b>
Creationism is not using scientific methods, its not science, its based on belief like religion. (nothing bad in just believing whatever you want to believe)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, why do people still follow these beliefs, even in the knowledge that they caused almost every war before the 1800s.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Religion barely causes war (depends on the religion, there are many peacefuller religions than catholics), religion was more abused for it.
Were for example does the bible say you shall go to war, take others land/goods/whatever and even kill other people?
Religion is a tool to make soldiers to do what you want, and not just till 1800, its still a tool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mean how amazing is it that God can create just a large explosion and know that all of this would come of it, thats even more wonderful to me than it just suddenly appearing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is that experiment that shows that matter can spontanuously appear out of energy, and spontanuously dissappear.
Is it wrong that I just don't care whether there is a god, or that I don't care what will happen to me when I die?
Is it wrong that I don't care how the Earth was made.
Is it wrong that I don't give to charities who claim to help the third world?
Is it wrong that though out my childhood I was verbally abused, beaten, stabbed, had a brick try to be implanted in my brain and run over by a car by protestants, simply for being born to a catholic family?
Is it wrong that this made me renounce religion as a farce, and disbelieve what I was brought up with to the extent of cursing at a priest during mass.
Therefore, is it wrong that I exist?
<b>So...How 'bout that science game, eh? Anyone else ever been to the St. Louis Science Center?</b> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: By the bye, I'm all for civilized debate on matters of faith and religion. After all, theology has been described as <i>fides quaerens intellectum</i>, or "faith seeking reason." I just think debate should take place in <a href='http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50' target='_blank'>a forum dedicated to religious discussion</a> or at least the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=28' target='_blank'>Natural Selection off-topic discussions forum</a>. Debate on religious topics should not devolve (pardon the pun) into a flame war; I think any other result is impossible in this setting.
i had some 20 more instances of how evolution is incorrrect on paper, but i threw it away a while ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
GET THIS NEWS TO BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE COMMUNITY IMMEDIATELY.
i had some 20 more instances of how evolution is incorrrect on paper, but i threw it away a while ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for fallacy.
Or the experiment that shows the Grand Canyon could be made during a 7 day flood? It takes millions of years to carve that stone, there is just no way to do that in less than 1000 years.
Or that there are no fosils older than 6000 years? We have found older ones.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have found older ones?
How can you be sure that the fossils are older than 6000 years? The methods of deciding the age of a fossil is very uncertain.
The actions of religious groups dont give proof to the validity of a belief. Their actions while terrible are their actions, and they are ultimately responsible for them.
Though I do agree with you to some extent that I think organised religion is spreading one small groups beliefs to the majority.
To all those people asking for this subject be dropped, im really enjoying this thread, especially because everyone seems to be calmly discussing their views and opinions.
How can you be sure that the fossils are older than 6000 years? The methods of deciding the age of a fossil is very uncertain. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're gonna make the universe 6,000 years ago, why not make it look like it was created 6,000 years ago? Why go through all the effort to make it look old, when leaving it look young would be more in line with the Romans exhortation that all of nature demonstrates god's existence and glory?
Why create fossils in the ground--they don't point to a 6,000 year old universe?
Why create radioactive isotopes partially decayed--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe?
Why create starlight en route from stars more than 6,000 light years away--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe?
Why make animals mutatable--that doesn't point to the genesis account?
Why create some designs suboptimal--that doesn't point to the glory of god?
Why create evidence of evolutionary loss of limbs in whales and snakes--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe?
Why create stone tools which appear to predate the creation of the universe--that doesn't point to a 6,000 year old universe?
More importantly, why not just make a universe fully formed and put people in it? Why not do things in a manner consistent with Romans, and make the universe actually point towards your existence? Geometrically shaped continents? That would point to god. Non-mutable organisms? Different genetic information molecule types? All radio-isotope dating pointing to 6,000 years of age? Only starlight available from stars less than 6,000 light years away? Languages appearing unrelated to each other,and no evidence of foreign languages predating the tower of babel?
Wouldn't that all jive with the Romans exhortation that god's existence is proclaimed in all his creation? Why should god's existence only point to his existence to the uneducated?
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why stopping a discussion when i just have started? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh God people, go <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89840&hl=' target='_blank'>here</a> if you really want to have all your questions about macro and micro-evolution answered.
People complain about the discussion forum, but this is exactly why we have one; so debates like this don't end up in otherwise harmless threads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why.
Why didn't God create a bunch robots that couldn't do a bad thing and followed his every wish?
If God's existence was proved we wouldn't have a choice to belive in God or not and that would make us kind of like robots.
God gave us the free will because he didn't want a bunch of robots that was programmed to believe in him and do every thing he told them to, it would be boring and he would get the same passion from us humans as he get's today. If someone choose to believe in God, he knows is our own choice and I think it make's him happy.
(By the way, I didn't say that the universe is 6000 years old, I only said that fossils doesn't prove anything)
OUT OUT OUT!
SHOU! SHOU! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why stopping a discussion when i just have started? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh God people, go <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89840&hl=' target='_blank'>here</a> if you really want to have all your questions about macro and micro-evolution answered.
People complain about the discussion forum, but this is exactly why we have one; so debates like this don't end up in otherwise harmless threads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you people blind or something?
Who says God needs to be created? Who says God has human-like thought?
And if you don't believe that God created the universe, then you either believe in a beginning scenario or an infinite scenario.
<b>Beginning Scenario</b>
Why did the universe begin when it did? Why did everything get formed perfectly? What was there before the universe?
<b>Infinite Universe</b>
If the universe has lasted forever, then that means the stars have too, yet they do not have an infinite amount of energy. Do I need to say anything else to show the flaws of this one? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only logical scientific begining of the universe I have seen was the Braneworld Scenario. If you want I can post more information on it. But even it has unanswerable questions.
EDIT - Sorry Sky, just had to set some things straight.
WTH? rofl...
Nope... there really isn't.
Creationism says "I have the answer," and tries to find a proof for the answer.
Science says "I don't know the answer," and looks at the evidence to find out the answer.
They are <b>very</b> different methodologies.
If I have a god, a ruler, a maker.. that is someone I can understand.. and has the mental capacity that I have, I think I would just be a bit afraid.
The POINT is to have a god we cannot understand, because theres so many things that we cannot comprehend. It's been said that humans only use about a third of their brainpower during their lifetime. The other 2/3rds? Some may say more knowledge.. okay, whatever. I believe those 2/3rds are more of a supernatural composition.
This small thread on someone going to a festival, turned into an evolutionary debate. Only in the NS forums. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And by the way Minstrel.. you ask a lot of important questions there, many of them being Why this, why that. But they all have the same answer.
Everything God has done, has a reason. Why light shows blue as blue, and why doesn't blue really look like a red? There could be more colors? Theres so much uncomprehendable stuff out there.. But God knows all of it, and theres a reason he did all of that.. you can make finding it out your job, but I'd just rather concentrate on the giver.. not the gifts.
When he doesn't... god works in mysterious ways.
Confirmation bias ftw?
When he doesn't... god works in mysterious ways.
Confirmation bias ftw? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, yea that pretty much sums it up. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When he doesn't... god works in mysterious ways.
Confirmation bias ftw? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, yea that pretty much sums it up. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To everyone above this post (and I mean EVERYONE, no matter which side of this you are on) you guys are frigging lame.
Then there was the AvP game with the subtitle of Natural Selection. Good ol' Charlie C got the trademark first so they had to change it! A humble little mod team making Fox change the name. Warms the heart it does. USPTO ftw in this instance!
Disclaimer: I think intellectual property is a pretty broken system.
If the universe has lasted forever, then that means the stars have too, yet they do not have an infinite amount of energy. Do I need to say anything else to show the flaws of this one? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a closed system the amount of energy always remains the same (remember matter is a form of energy).
The Universe is a closed system.
To everyone else, you cant prove your beliefs either way, especially from the religious point of view (God giving proof of his existance would take away free will).
I present to the rest of you, this:
<a href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/babelfish.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/babelfish.shtml</a>
It gets to God in the middle.
i had some 20 more instances of how evolution is incorrrect on paper, but i threw it away a while ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite simple. It has been shown that there is a direct connection between the surface area of the brain and intellectual capacity. Most animals have a smaller brain, which begets a smaller surface area. Cimps, however, have brains extremely close to the size of the human brain, so why aren't they intelligent? It is because the surface of their brain is smooth, they do not have the furrows and fold that are found in the human brain, and that produce that kind of "ball of spaghetti" look.
Now, why haven't other creatures evolved these folds? Pure chance. Evolution is based on survival of the fittest. And survival of the fittest can be drastically affected by chance. Somewhere in the evolutionary history of man, we split off from chimps because one, possibly more, individuals had, by pure chance, a larger brain, which, to fit in their skull, had to fold slightly. When these animals procreated with others, the offspring had the same affect, only amplified slightly. This line of descendants survived because their higher intelligence allowed them to make use of their environment in new and unexpected ways, letting them fend off creatures much larger than themselves.
Why this hasn't occured once again in chimps, or some other animal, to produce another intelligent species, is also chance. What can happen, can also not happen. If it happened once, it probably will again, but we haven't seen it yet, or, if it has already happened, it hasn't evolved enough yet for us to detect it. Also, if it has happened since, the individuals could died off by chance, an infection, or a mortal wound. Evolution does proceed logically, but it is also governed by chance.
While we may not have proof that this is, indeed, what happened, it is an excellent theory, and a plausible one, which provides a scientific answer to your question.
And, back OT, the current system of intellectual property is pretty borked. While we will need some kind of system to govern it as long as we assign monetary value to it, there are certainly much more ideal system than the one we have now. We also need to rethink what we consider intellectual property. Right now, patents are being approved which, in my opinion, shouldn't be. There are some things that are owned collectively, by the entire human race. Patents of the human genome come to mind.
EDIT: Can you believe some people think that natural selection\ or evolution are incorrect because god created the earth 6,000 years ago? Wow creationalism, dunno where to start with that one :-P. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe God created the universe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As do I jabba. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not believe that god created the univers. Religion is a illution created by men for men and women. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Illusion not Illution. And you can believe whatever you want as can I. Trying to downgrade my religion isn't going to make your argument any stronger. Ill just leave it at that.