<!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+May 7 2005, 11:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ May 7 2005, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The point of life is to have as much sex as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that's the case, then I can die knowing my life was worth a damn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+May 8 2005, 02:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ May 8 2005, 02:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The point of life is to have as much sex as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh.
<!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+May 8 2005, 07:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ May 8 2005, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The point of life is to have as much sex as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is either really profound... or a pile of rubbish <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seen Ichi yet?
Pieceofsoap: As I don't believe that the 'grand scheme of things' has a point to it I really can't see how anything that was part of that same 'grand scheme' has a point either.
Everything I do has an objective in mind but eventually when everything and everyone I could even remotely influence is dust how are my actions important? Of course this is the objective view and being tied to a body like we are we can't help being subjective about it, hence all this breathing I keep doing. I think it is only the 'personal' aspects of an action that make it worth doing and by personal I don't mean in a greedy way, I mean that the consequences are forseeable and tangible to the actor.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+May 8 2005, 06:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ May 8 2005, 06:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pieceofsoap: As I don't believe that the 'grand scheme of things' has a point to it I really can't see how anything that was part of that same 'grand scheme' has a point either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could spend hours explaining the logic behind it, but you would undoubtably misinterpret me, so Im just going to say that the point of anything in existence, in the grand scheme of things, is simply to be. Nothing more complex than that.
We are animals. And animals by nature want to do 2 things: survive, and have the best time doing it, and reproduce, hence sex and the urge (for most people) to raise a family eventually. Life just gets a little more complicated for humans because we can think rationally. For example we want to own more material goods or have higher social status than others, and of course we wonder about the point of our existence. But when it comes down to it, we're just doing what we'd do instinctively, and there's no way around it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+May 8 2005, 06:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ May 8 2005, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Those who said they need to experience death (it isn't that remarkable really) to understand their lives...
No actually you don't. You will just have to take my word on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Cyndane's a zombie.
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not quite but you are fairly close.
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not quite but you are fairly close. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then I'll say I'm playing horseshoes, and leave it at that.
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not quite but you are fairly close. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then I'll say I'm playing horseshoes, and leave it at that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough.
<!--QuoteBegin-bmdavll+May 8 2005, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bmdavll @ May 8 2005, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We are animals. And animals by nature want to do 2 things: survive, and have the best time doing it, and reproduce, hence sex and the urge (for most people) to raise a family eventually. Life just gets a little more complicated for humans because we can think rationally. For example we want to own more material goods or have higher social status than others, and of course we wonder about the point of our existence. But when it comes down to it, we're just doing what we'd do instinctively, and there's no way around it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
<!--QuoteBegin-pieceofsoap+May 9 2005, 02:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ May 9 2005, 02:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-bmdavll+May 8 2005, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bmdavll @ May 8 2005, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We are animals. And animals by nature want to do 2 things: survive, and have the best time doing it, and reproduce, hence sex and the urge (for most people) to raise a family eventually. Life just gets a little more complicated for humans because we can think rationally. For example we want to own more material goods or have higher social status than others, and of course we wonder about the point of our existence. But when it comes down to it, we're just doing what we'd do instinctively, and there's no way around it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As do I, although again that is purely subjective as there is no objective 'point' to it all. Ok, if you don't have hours to write out a logical argument that I won't 'misinterpret' then maybe you could point me to someone who does, has anyone else got the time?
Only, as far as I see it, most things that seem to have a 'point' have an affect on other things, you do something to achieve an objective or cause a change. Something you yourself have said in your posts. However, you also say that the point of existence is to exist, that existence is both the action <i>and</i> the objective, both cause and affect.
Now how exactly does that work? Surely if existence were to have a point then it would have to affect something <i>outside</i> of existence? In other words, only the only possible way existence has a point is if there is a god. Something I've been saying since the start.
I don't believe this is a particularly geeky thing to say, and I only use the example: 'computer games' because it is (in my opinion) the closest the human race has come to 'virtual reality'. The parallel could just as easily be films or books (in fact books is possibly a better parallel).
In my view life is like one long computer game, but with no NPCs and just 100% humans. We're given or take on tasks to accomplish (or <i>missions</i> if you will) but at the end of the day the accomplishment of those tasks could be considered meaningless. You could stop playing the 'game' of life any time you wanted, but the trouble is, it's just too damn good.
It's immersive to the point of us giving it the term 'reality', it's addictive to the point that -whatever problems we encounter- most of us come back for more. So our purpose in life (in my view) is not to accomplish anything in particular, but just to have a good time.
However we came to be on this Earth, in this Universe or in this X; we have been given a sense of consciousness which includes such emotions (OGM SCRIPS!!) as guilt and remorse. If the Game of Life is simply about enjoying yourself, then these emotions are there to make sure that we don't encroach on anyone else's game.
Play nice, now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Does it really matter if life has a point or not? To me not really, I am just having a blast living the life I am leading. If there is an afterlife, great! If there isn't, then atleast I can enjoy the now.
I am here so I might as well make the best of it. That to me is all that really matters. Enjoying yourself and your family/friends company, ignoring those who condesend to you. while being a productive member of society.
Pointless or not, I am having a good time, and I want to keep that good time going as long as possible.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+May 9 2005, 12:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ May 9 2005, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-pieceofsoap+May 9 2005, 02:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ May 9 2005, 02:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-bmdavll+May 8 2005, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bmdavll @ May 8 2005, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We are animals. And animals by nature want to do 2 things: survive, and have the best time doing it, and reproduce, hence sex and the urge (for most people) to raise a family eventually. Life just gets a little more complicated for humans because we can think rationally. For example we want to own more material goods or have higher social status than others, and of course we wonder about the point of our existence. But when it comes down to it, we're just doing what we'd do instinctively, and there's no way around it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As do I, although again that is purely subjective as there is no objective 'point' to it all. Ok, if you don't have hours to write out a logical argument that I won't 'misinterpret' then maybe you could point me to someone who does, has anyone else got the time?
Only, as far as I see it, most things that seem to have a 'point' have an affect on other things, you do something to achieve an objective or cause a change. Something you yourself have said in your posts. However, you also say that the point of existence is to exist, that existence is both the action <i>and</i> the objective, both cause and affect.
Now how exactly does that work? Surely if existence were to have a point then it would have to affect something <i>outside</i> of existence? In other words, only the only possible way existence has a point is if there is a god. Something I've been saying since the start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I cant point you to someone else who can explain my argument, as I have not adopted the philosophy of someone else.
Now, as to how this works? I attempted to give an explaination of my stance on page 3, and I used some rather creative language to try to get my views across. I had to do this, because I so factor in the concept of "God." A big difference in the concept of God I used, however, is that it is an abstract "God," and is completely non-anthropomorphic. Therefore, Its hard to describe that fundamental level of existence (God) because all descriptors are derived from physical rulesets, wherein identification of a property is achived by declaring what is and isnt true about the subject. This cannot be applied to the absolute being, because it is deeper than the descriptors, and <u>cannot</u> have any differentiation applied to it. For example, the statement "God is Good" cannot hold water, for to be "Good" is to be differentiated from those things that are "not good," and God, being the fundamental absolute, is therefore all things good, not good, and everything in between. Trying to pin down god in this way is like trying to drive a nail through the ocean, it doesnt work.
One way to imagine this concept of god, is to think of god as white light. Because there is nothing that is not god, its like there is nothing but white light. Because there is nothing that is not white light, it cannot be observed as having any properties by an outside observer. Light with no concept of darkness, the observer would see nothing. So, the identification must be subjective. For this white light to identify itself, it must identify its components, and thus breaks itself down into frequencies (While remaining white light) which can each be individually evaluated. And due to it being pure white light, it exists as the simultaneous coexistence of all frequencies, and thus has an infinity of individual components to evaluate.
How is this relevant? What happens when a question is applied to God? As above, the only thing to evaluate God is God itself, and the only thing to be evaluated is God. So when God asks a question of itself, all aspects of god are defined. To define something is to apply a ruleset to it, and god cannot be defined by a single ruleset. So an infinite array of rulesets are created, and populated by the aspects of god that can pertain to those rulesets. This is what we know as existence.
The purpose of existence is to, by its own existence, define the truly Infinite, God.
In short, God asks the question: "What am I?" and and all possible scenarios are created, as an answer. And one scenario just happens to contain our reality, exactly as it is now, with us.
Hope that clears some things up.
/EDIT Oh, the purpose of LIFE is to fullfil the purpose of Biology, which is a means to dynamically fullfill the point of existence.
I've come to the conclusion that human beings are, in fact, two seperate entities. One of these is the animal we see in the mirror everyday. The other is our consciousness. However, as far as Science is concerned, consciousness doesn't exist, as it can't be measured. Eventually, Science will come up with a way to measure, and perhaps manipulate, this consciousness. Also, I suspect consciousness isn't limited to Humans. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+May 9 2005, 09:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ May 9 2005, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've come to the conclusion that human beings are, in fact, two seperate entities. One of these is the animal we see in the mirror everyday. The other is our consciousness. However, as far as Science is concerned, consciousness doesn't exist, as it can't be measured. Eventually, Science will come up with a way to measure, and perhaps manipulate, this consciousness. Also, I suspect consciousness isn't limited to Humans. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I sort of agree with this, in that somethings physical form is an extent of the ruleset of one particular reality, while "conciousness" is that aspect of the infinite which fills that physical structure. If you were to think of it as a polygon, the extention of the ruleset, the physical form, would be the vertexes and lines, while the "consciousness" would be what gives that polygon its mass. I use the polygon analogy, so that it is clear that it extends regardless of life. The neat thing about Humans, is that our physical forms allow consciousness to manifest itself in a form that is self-aware.
/EDIT And when I refer to "Consciousness," think of it in terms of the "What Am I?" question previously. "Consciousness" is the individual aspect of god being evaluated, the individual frequency of light, so to speak. (Whereas the physical form would be the electromagnetic field allowing for the expression of Light)
How can a non-anthropomorphic god ask a question? Or create?
It sounds to me that you have imagined up some miraculous force like a kind of uber-gravity (obviously with far more properties because gravity itself would be only one small part of it). The thing about gravity is that it doesn't choose to pull objects towards other, larger objects, it just does. It has no violition because it too is non-anthropomorphic. While gravity is powerful it doesn't have an objective and it could only have a purpose if it was created in the same way a lump of flint has no purpose until we sharpen it and then start stabbing people.
Cold doesn't <i>create</i> ice, cold is just a lack of thermal energy. If there was some kind of Jack Frost character then yes, ice could be seen as created, otherwise it just is for no reason. Again, the ice has no purpose, no particular point, there is no objective built into it intrinsically. It just is.
Gravity just is.
Existence just is unless an actual being created it. As I don't believe in god and you don't believe in a god-like being then I'm not sure how you can be disagreeing with me.
Oh and for the record, I don't believe in souls either.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2005
<b>1 > 0</b>
Why because it is the higher number (stronger lifeform) in the equision, thats why we have 2, 3, 4 and so on... The point I'm making? Very simple actually, but I'll use some examples to clarify.<ul><li><b>Anti Gravity > Gravity</b>
Because the universe is expanding, not closing in on itself. The weight of the entire universe can't stop this expantion. This expantion also verifies that there must have been an explosion of some sort at the start of this universe. Call it the "big bang" if you want to.
</li><li><b>Black hole > light particles</b>
Because the blackhole it's mass is way higher then the mass or movement energy light has.
</li><li>A virus vs the immumesystem. This it harder to explain since the outcome can differ. Sometimes resulting in life or death or a draw. The virus will win if the immumesystem is to weak to combat it. The same will happen when the opposite is true.
</li><li>We live in a universe where there is a delicate balance between matter, energy and time. If this balance didn't exist then one of them would consume the rest because it is stronger. I said delicate balance, but in fact that isn't the truth since time seems to have the upper hand and that's why we have death in lifeforms. galaxies planets/stars. Will the universe at one time die? Noone will be able to determin that until it happens. And what happens after that, will it start all over again is this a vicious loop from which nothing can escape, the ultimate battle of everything to be the strongest thing there is. All very interesting question noone can awnser (yet)
This will lead to the question of is there a god which has created us in his image? Logic would tell you there is something out there which combines everything together, making the existance of something like that illogical and again something humans do. God was created in the mind of man to explain the things he/she cannot explain. Maybe one day we can explain everything, when will that happen? Only time will tell</li></ul>Now the human race has something called selfawareness. This sometimes stops this natural course of action. Preservation of nature and endangered lifeforms for example. Some people care and some people don't care about this. Which in itself is also explainatory in the following example.
This need to preserve nature/wildlife is stronger in some people then the need to conquer and destroy. Can be messured through sience if theres a need to do so with a liedetector while awnsering questions in relation to this subject.
My ultimate point is that life is the simple course of Natural-selection, the weak will perish the strong will survive. Everything (matter/energy/lifeforms) which is stronger then something else will ultimately defeat or destroy it. Ironic on these forums and all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As you talk about gravity which I've just brought up myself I presume you are replying to my post as otherwise it isn't really relevant to the topic? I'm just wondering about what your intent is, attack? Agreement?
One bit I can comment on is this <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This will lead to the question of is there a god which has created us in his image? Logic would tell you there is something out there which combines everything together<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how logic leads humans to the idea that there is a god? I always believed that the idea of god came from 'experience' rather than some apriori method. After all we experience other humans affecting things all the time so when we are looking for the biggest cause it is a pretty natural leap to look for a really big human.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+May 9 2005, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ May 9 2005, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How can a non-anthropomorphic god ask a question? Or create?
It sounds to me that you have imagined up some miraculous force like a kind of uber-gravity (obviously with far more properties because gravity itself would be only one small part of it). The thing about gravity is that it doesn't choose to pull objects towards other, larger objects, it just does. It has no violition because it too is non-anthropomorphic. While gravity is powerful it doesn't have an objective and it could only have a purpose if it was created in the same way a lump of flint has no purpose until we sharpen it and then start stabbing people.
Cold doesn't <i>create</i> ice, cold is just a lack of thermal energy. If there was some kind of Jack Frost character then yes, ice could be seen as created, otherwise it just is for no reason. Again, the ice has no purpose, no particular point, there is no objective built into it intrinsically. It just is.
Gravity just is.
Existence just is unless an actual being created it. As I don't believe in god and you don't believe in a god-like being then I'm not sure how you can be disagreeing with me.
Oh and for the record, I don't believe in souls either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you are likening God to Gravity. You are right, God doesnt choose to create, or even ask a question (I chose the approach because it makes sense from a human perspective) Of course it has no volition, I never said it had one. As for an objective? It simply is.
So it seems we agree on that fundamental level simply existing.
Now on to how that fundamental existence gives rise to distinct existences - No, there is no question, and can be no question for it is an existence outside of Time. Therefore, all possibilities, being part of it, are <u>inevitable</u> in their expression, and the only way they can be expressed, is through manifestation of physical rulesets, and existences. Doest this change the fundamental level? No, that is impossible. Any way you look at the fundamental level as a whole, it would appear static, and yet at the same time, is completely dynamic...
Gah its hard to talk about something that doesnt obey the laws of Cause and Effect, or Time, or space...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2005
It's not to attack anything or anyone in this topic. just a clearification that everything effects anything else anywhere, which is in fact life. I mean to have this kind of discusion we should at least have a clear view on what life is in the first place... The strongest form will survive. I'm not talking about humans or lifeforms only, but everything which exists.
Let's take another gravity example <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Take the moon of our planet for instance. It's to heavy for our planets gravity to sustain it in the same orbit since it's moving away from the earth and ultimately will be gone from the gravitatinal graps the earth has on it. Again an example of the strongest entity will win, in this case the moons own weight/gravity.
Now can you say gravity is a living entity and as such is life or is it just there. I mean can we even define what life is. Sure we can make up rules about it to distinguis what is we think is alive and what isn't, but we can't prove it.
In reaction on the god issue: God elegibly is the creator which has created everything which exists and watches over us. So to explain it purely scientificly it's an entity which created things like energy. matter, time and ultimately from our point of view, us? This could be true, but then god would be the "big bang" or an energy which holds everything else together to keep it from colapsing in on itself.
Why because it is the higher number (stronger lifeform) in the equision, thats why we have 2, 3, 4 and so on... The point I'm making? Very simple actually, but I'll use some examples to clarify.<ul><li><b>Anti Gravity > Gravity</b>
Because the universe is expanding, not closing in on itself. The weight of the entire universe can't stop this expantion. This expantion also verifies that there must have been an explosion of some sort at the start of this universe. Call it the "big bang" if you want to.
</li><li><b>Black hole > light particles</b>
Because the blackhole it's mass is way higher then the mass or movement energy light has.
</li><li>A virus vs the immumesystem. This it harder to explain since the outcome can differ. Sometimes resulting in life or death or a draw. The virus will win if the immumesystem is to weak to combat it. The same will happen when the opposite is true.
</li><li>We live in a universe where there is a delicate balance between matter, energy and time. If this balance didn't exist then one of them would consume the rest because it is stronger. I said delicate balance, but in fact that isn't the truth since time seems to have the upper hand and that's why we have death in lifeforms. galaxies planets/stars. Will the universe at one time die? Noone will be able to determin that until it happens. And what happens after that, will it start all over again is this a vicious loop from which nothing can escape, the ultimate battle of everything to be the strongest thing there is. All very interesting question noone can awnser (yet)
This will lead to the question of is there a god which has created us in his image? Logic would tell you there is something out there which combines everything together, making the existance of something like that illogical and again something humans do. God was created in the mind of man to explain the things he/she cannot explain. Maybe one day we can explain everything, when will that happen? Only time will tell</li></ul>Now the human race has something called selfawareness. This sometimes stops this natural course of action. Preservation of nature and endangered lifeforms for example. Some people care and some people don't care about this. Which in itself is also explainatory in the following example.
This need to preserve nature/wildlife is stronger in some people then the need to conquer and destroy. Can be messured through sience if theres a need to do so with a liedetector while awnsering questions in relation to this subject.
My ultimate point is that life is the simple course of Natural-selection, the weak will perish the strong will survive. Everything (matter/energy/lifeforms) which is stronger then something else will ultimately defeat or destroy it. Ironic on these forums and all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit] typos/grammar <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your argument holds water - To a point. Something that I have been basing my arguments upon, is an assumption, regarding the simplification of the laws of physics.
The more we study physics, the more we simplify, the more seemingly disparate laws of nature come together. Im talking about Unification of Forces, Quantum Physics. The Electromagnetic force and the Weak Nuclear Force unify to the Electroweak force, the unification of the Electroweak force with the Strong Nuclear force into the Grand Unified force, and (Im assuming) the unification of Grand Unified with the Universal Gravitational force, into Unified Field theory.
This level, is a level on which there is no differentiaton between bosons and fermions, time, space, etc. It is the fundamental level, the most pure existence possible, AKA God. As for being made in God's image, thats something that has always struck me as absurd, for how could anything NOT be in gods image?
Anyway, you are making comments as to the objectives of Life, as opposed to existence itself. We all know that life can be... competetive. Sure the weak will perish and the strong will survive, but on a deeper level, does it even matter?
Pieceofsoap: Everything you have just said can be true and still the world would be without meaning as you can't completely change the idea of god and still use this 'god's' existence to prove the world has meaning. If god is a entity that does things on purpose and with thought then we have meaning and a point. If 'god' is simply a force then all it does is exist but that simply means that 'god' is pointless too. I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't see how your idea of god can somehow also contain the idea of it giving a 'point' to everything else.
Kouji San: Other than the fact that I personally wouldn't define life as 'one thing that affects another' it makes no difference to my point. If you want to say that the definition of life doesn't automatically include the ability to decide on and with purpose (even if every example we can currently think of does) that's fine. My point is without that ability to consciously decide there is no way to... assign purpose and meaning to something.
That's it exactly actually, it is free will that gives purpose. We'll put the fact that I don't believe in it to one side (for the moment at least) and I'll pretend that humans have free will. Unfortunately when that source of freewill ends, so does all of the meaning it created. Does a fork have a point or a pupose if the entire human race is wiped out? Does it have meaning if there is nothing to eat, nothing to use it? No, it just becomes a strangely shaped piece of metal.
That is why the universe has no purpose without god, because only something that will never end and is outside the universe can give it purpose. However I don't believe in a god which means for me the universe is pointless.
Oh, and if you want to make 'gods' creation of the universe scientific then that is fine, but that doesn't mean that god <i>is</i> the big bang, simply that the big bang was caused by him and, if his omniprescence is true, then it is also a part of him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, you are making comments as to the objectives of Life, as opposed to existence itself. We all know that life can be... competetive. Sure the weak will perish and the strong will survive, but on a deeper level, does it even matter?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forgot to mention this point so I'm glad I can quote such a handy like soundbyte.
Don't have time to (and don't want to) post my own stuff in this topic, but my friend said something interesting today; "Our lives are a fiction that exists only in our own minds, everything that is truly real passes instantaneously and becomes another addition to your version of memory."
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2005
Fact is, it seems logical that there was a big bang given the current state and expantion of the universe. But we can't prove if there was anything before it. Let alone there was something before it which created the big bang. Also it seems logical that something outside this universe can't influence anything in this universe. As soon as it tries to enter our universe it would cease to exist, since it's molecules have never existed in our universe.
Life = 'one thing that affects another' seems logical and true <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Is there a meaning to life? Yes there is, I mean compare our current state of living to the beginning. Haven't we evolved into a more efficient being to plunder our planet then when we were just the simple hunter with sticks and spears?
Life in it's basic form is also striving to be the best at what they do, so they naturally evolve into more effecient beings to do their job. Over miljions of years resulting in us and many other lifeforms. In fact we aren't just one being, but combined of miljions of other beings called cells, which are composed of molecules, which are composed of quads and so on if there is anything beyond that.
So life is indeed 'one thing that affects another'
Thoughts and our free will, where do they come from? Probably they are a natural process of all our cells commucating with each other, who knows...
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+May 9 2005, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ May 9 2005, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pieceofsoap: Everything you have just said can be true and still the world would be without meaning as you can't completely change the idea of god and still use this 'god's' existence to prove the world has meaning. If god is a entity that does things on purpose and with thought then we have meaning and a point. If 'god' is simply a force then all it does is exist but that simply means that 'god' is pointless too. I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't see how your idea of god can somehow also contain the idea of it giving a 'point' to everything else.
...
That is why the universe has no purpose without god, because only something that will never end and is outside the universe can give it purpose. However I don't believe in a god which means for me the universe is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, this is what it essentially boils down to, Does the Infinite/Unified Field/God have an intelligence of some kind? If yes, existence must have purpose. If no, existence is simply inevitable manifestation, and has no point.
As to the question of whether the Absolute has any kind of intelligence (Even if its restricted to the simple concept of "being") Who is to say one way or the other? The only way to tell, is to be it, and as we must have restrictions to exist in the first place, we have no means of knowing.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't have time to (and don't want to) post my own stuff in this topic, but my friend said something interesting today; "Our lives are a fiction that exists only in our own minds, everything that is truly real passes instantaneously and becomes another addition to your version of memory."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I once joked "I am a figment of my own imagination." and later, I was surprised at the truth it held. Its actually one of the little things that motivated me to pursue this topic, interestingly enough. You got a wise friend there.
Comments
If that's the case, then I can die knowing my life was worth a damn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh.
God hates me, then. ):
That is either really profound... or a pile of rubbish <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seen Ichi yet?
Pieceofsoap: As I don't believe that the 'grand scheme of things' has a point to it I really can't see how anything that was part of that same 'grand scheme' has a point either.
Everything I do has an objective in mind but eventually when everything and everyone I could even remotely influence is dust how are my actions important? Of course this is the objective view and being tied to a body like we are we can't help being subjective about it, hence all this breathing I keep doing. I think it is only the 'personal' aspects of an action that make it worth doing and by personal I don't mean in a greedy way, I mean that the consequences are forseeable and tangible to the actor.
...
I CAN'T SEED IN AZUREUS. MY LIFE NO LONGER HAS A MEANING.
I could spend hours explaining the logic behind it, but you would undoubtably misinterpret me, so Im just going to say that the point of anything in existence, in the grand scheme of things, is simply to be. Nothing more complex than that.
No actually you don't. You will just have to take my word on it.
No actually you don't. You will just have to take my word on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cyndane's a zombie.
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away?
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not quite but you are fairly close.
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not quite but you are fairly close. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I'll say I'm playing horseshoes, and leave it at that.
Near-death experience, then? Light at the end of the tunnel? Saw the Grim Reaper, and turned away? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not quite but you are fairly close. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I'll say I'm playing horseshoes, and leave it at that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough.
Agreed.
Agreed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As do I, although again that is purely subjective as there is no objective 'point' to it all. Ok, if you don't have hours to write out a logical argument that I won't 'misinterpret' then maybe you could point me to someone who does, has anyone else got the time?
Only, as far as I see it, most things that seem to have a 'point' have an affect on other things, you do something to achieve an objective or cause a change. Something you yourself have said in your posts. However, you also say that the point of existence is to exist, that existence is both the action <i>and</i> the objective, both cause and affect.
Now how exactly does that work? Surely if existence were to have a point then it would have to affect something <i>outside</i> of existence? In other words, only the only possible way existence has a point is if there is a god. Something I've been saying since the start.
In my view life is like one long computer game, but with no NPCs and just 100% humans. We're given or take on tasks to accomplish (or <i>missions</i> if you will) but at the end of the day the accomplishment of those tasks could be considered meaningless. You could stop playing the 'game' of life any time you wanted, but the trouble is, it's just too damn good.
It's immersive to the point of us giving it the term 'reality', it's addictive to the point that -whatever problems we encounter- most of us come back for more. So our purpose in life (in my view) is not to accomplish anything in particular, but just to have a good time.
However we came to be on this Earth, in this Universe or in this X; we have been given a sense of consciousness which includes such emotions (OGM SCRIPS!!) as guilt and remorse. If the Game of Life is simply about enjoying yourself, then these emotions are there to make sure that we don't encroach on anyone else's game.
Play nice, now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am here so I might as well make the best of it. That to me is all that really matters. Enjoying yourself and your family/friends company, ignoring those who condesend to you. while being a productive member of society.
Pointless or not, I am having a good time, and I want to keep that good time going as long as possible.
Agreed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As do I, although again that is purely subjective as there is no objective 'point' to it all. Ok, if you don't have hours to write out a logical argument that I won't 'misinterpret' then maybe you could point me to someone who does, has anyone else got the time?
Only, as far as I see it, most things that seem to have a 'point' have an affect on other things, you do something to achieve an objective or cause a change. Something you yourself have said in your posts. However, you also say that the point of existence is to exist, that existence is both the action <i>and</i> the objective, both cause and affect.
Now how exactly does that work? Surely if existence were to have a point then it would have to affect something <i>outside</i> of existence? In other words, only the only possible way existence has a point is if there is a god. Something I've been saying since the start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cant point you to someone else who can explain my argument, as I have not adopted the philosophy of someone else.
Now, as to how this works? I attempted to give an explaination of my stance on page 3, and I used some rather creative language to try to get my views across. I had to do this, because I so factor in the concept of "God." A big difference in the concept of God I used, however, is that it is an abstract "God," and is completely non-anthropomorphic. Therefore, Its hard to describe that fundamental level of existence (God) because all descriptors are derived from physical rulesets, wherein identification of a property is achived by declaring what is and isnt true about the subject. This cannot be applied to the absolute being, because it is deeper than the descriptors, and <u>cannot</u> have any differentiation applied to it. For example, the statement "God is Good" cannot hold water, for to be "Good" is to be differentiated from those things that are "not good," and God, being the fundamental absolute, is therefore all things good, not good, and everything in between. Trying to pin down god in this way is like trying to drive a nail through the ocean, it doesnt work.
One way to imagine this concept of god, is to think of god as white light. Because there is nothing that is not god, its like there is nothing but white light. Because there is nothing that is not white light, it cannot be observed as having any properties by an outside observer. Light with no concept of darkness, the observer would see nothing. So, the identification must be subjective. For this white light to identify itself, it must identify its components, and thus breaks itself down into frequencies (While remaining white light) which can each be individually evaluated. And due to it being pure white light, it exists as the simultaneous coexistence of all frequencies, and thus has an infinity of individual components to evaluate.
How is this relevant?
What happens when a question is applied to God? As above, the only thing to evaluate God is God itself, and the only thing to be evaluated is God.
So when God asks a question of itself, all aspects of god are defined. To define something is to apply a ruleset to it, and god cannot be defined by a single ruleset. So an infinite array of rulesets are created, and populated by the aspects of god that can pertain to those rulesets. This is what we know as existence.
The purpose of existence is to, by its own existence, define the truly Infinite, God.
In short, God asks the question: "What am I?" and and all possible scenarios are created, as an answer. And one scenario just happens to contain our reality, exactly as it is now, with us.
Hope that clears some things up.
/EDIT
Oh, the purpose of LIFE is to fullfil the purpose of Biology, which is a means to dynamically fullfill the point of existence.
I sort of agree with this, in that somethings physical form is an extent of the ruleset of one particular reality, while "conciousness" is that aspect of the infinite which fills that physical structure. If you were to think of it as a polygon, the extention of the ruleset, the physical form, would be the vertexes and lines, while the "consciousness" would be what gives that polygon its mass. I use the polygon analogy, so that it is clear that it extends regardless of life. The neat thing about Humans, is that our physical forms allow consciousness to manifest itself in a form that is self-aware.
/EDIT
And when I refer to "Consciousness," think of it in terms of the "What Am I?" question previously. "Consciousness" is the individual aspect of god being evaluated, the individual frequency of light, so to speak. (Whereas the physical form would be the electromagnetic field allowing for the expression of Light)
It sounds to me that you have imagined up some miraculous force like a kind of uber-gravity (obviously with far more properties because gravity itself would be only one small part of it). The thing about gravity is that it doesn't choose to pull objects towards other, larger objects, it just does. It has no violition because it too is non-anthropomorphic. While gravity is powerful it doesn't have an objective and it could only have a purpose if it was created in the same way a lump of flint has no purpose until we sharpen it and then start stabbing people.
Cold doesn't <i>create</i> ice, cold is just a lack of thermal energy. If there was some kind of Jack Frost character then yes, ice could be seen as created, otherwise it just is for no reason. Again, the ice has no purpose, no particular point, there is no objective built into it intrinsically. It just is.
Gravity just is.
Existence just is unless an actual being created it. As I don't believe in god and you don't believe in a god-like being then I'm not sure how you can be disagreeing with me.
Oh and for the record, I don't believe in souls either.
Why because it is the higher number (stronger lifeform) in the equision, thats why we have 2, 3, 4 and so on... The point I'm making? Very simple actually, but I'll use some examples to clarify.<ul><li><b>Anti Gravity > Gravity</b>
Because the universe is expanding, not closing in on itself. The weight of the entire universe can't stop this expantion. This expantion also verifies that there must have been an explosion of some sort at the start of this universe. Call it the "big bang" if you want to.
</li><li><b>Black hole > light particles</b>
Because the blackhole it's mass is way higher then the mass or movement energy light has.
</li><li>A virus vs the immumesystem. This it harder to explain since the outcome can differ. Sometimes resulting in life or death or a draw. The virus will win if the immumesystem is to weak to combat it. The same will happen when the opposite is true.
</li><li>We live in a universe where there is a delicate balance between matter, energy and time. If this balance didn't exist then one of them would consume the rest because it is stronger. I said delicate balance, but in fact that isn't the truth since time seems to have the upper hand and that's why we have death in lifeforms. galaxies planets/stars. Will the universe at one time die? Noone will be able to determin that until it happens. And what happens after that, will it start all over again is this a vicious loop from which nothing can escape, the ultimate battle of everything to be the strongest thing there is. All very interesting question noone can awnser (yet)
This will lead to the question of is there a god which has created us in his image? Logic would tell you there is something out there which combines everything together, making the existance of something like that illogical and again something humans do. God was created in the mind of man to explain the things he/she cannot explain. Maybe one day we can explain everything, when will that happen? Only time will tell</li></ul>Now the human race has something called selfawareness. This sometimes stops this natural course of action. Preservation of nature and endangered lifeforms for example. Some people care and some people don't care about this. Which in itself is also explainatory in the following example.
This need to preserve nature/wildlife is stronger in some people then the need to conquer and destroy. Can be messured through sience if theres a need to do so with a liedetector while awnsering questions in relation to this subject.
My ultimate point is that life is the simple course of Natural-selection, the weak will perish the strong will survive. Everything (matter/energy/lifeforms) which is stronger then something else will ultimately defeat or destroy it. Ironic on these forums and all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit]
typos/grammar
One bit I can comment on is this
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This will lead to the question of is there a god which has created us in his image? Logic would tell you there is something out there which combines everything together<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how logic leads humans to the idea that there is a god? I always believed that the idea of god came from 'experience' rather than some apriori method. After all we experience other humans affecting things all the time so when we are looking for the biggest cause it is a pretty natural leap to look for a really big human.
It sounds to me that you have imagined up some miraculous force like a kind of uber-gravity (obviously with far more properties because gravity itself would be only one small part of it). The thing about gravity is that it doesn't choose to pull objects towards other, larger objects, it just does. It has no violition because it too is non-anthropomorphic. While gravity is powerful it doesn't have an objective and it could only have a purpose if it was created in the same way a lump of flint has no purpose until we sharpen it and then start stabbing people.
Cold doesn't <i>create</i> ice, cold is just a lack of thermal energy. If there was some kind of Jack Frost character then yes, ice could be seen as created, otherwise it just is for no reason. Again, the ice has no purpose, no particular point, there is no objective built into it intrinsically. It just is.
Gravity just is.
Existence just is unless an actual being created it. As I don't believe in god and you don't believe in a god-like being then I'm not sure how you can be disagreeing with me.
Oh and for the record, I don't believe in souls either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you are likening God to Gravity. You are right, God doesnt choose to create, or even ask a question (I chose the approach because it makes sense from a human perspective) Of course it has no volition, I never said it had one. As for an objective? It simply is.
So it seems we agree on that fundamental level simply existing.
Now on to how that fundamental existence gives rise to distinct existences - No, there is no question, and can be no question for it is an existence outside of Time. Therefore, all possibilities, being part of it, are <u>inevitable</u> in their expression, and the only way they can be expressed, is through manifestation of physical rulesets, and existences. Doest this change the fundamental level? No, that is impossible. Any way you look at the fundamental level as a whole, it would appear static, and yet at the same time, is completely dynamic...
Gah its hard to talk about something that doesnt obey the laws of Cause and Effect, or Time, or space...
Let's take another gravity example <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Take the moon of our planet for instance. It's to heavy for our planets gravity to sustain it in the same orbit since it's moving away from the earth and ultimately will be gone from the gravitatinal graps the earth has on it. Again an example of the strongest entity will win, in this case the moons own weight/gravity.
Now can you say gravity is a living entity and as such is life or is it just there. I mean can we even define what life is. Sure we can make up rules about it to distinguis what is we think is alive and what isn't, but we can't prove it.
In reaction on the god issue:
God elegibly is the creator which has created everything which exists and watches over us. So to explain it purely scientificly it's an entity which created things like energy. matter, time and ultimately from our point of view, us? This could be true, but then god would be the "big bang" or an energy which holds everything else together to keep it from colapsing in on itself.
Why because it is the higher number (stronger lifeform) in the equision, thats why we have 2, 3, 4 and so on... The point I'm making? Very simple actually, but I'll use some examples to clarify.<ul><li><b>Anti Gravity > Gravity</b>
Because the universe is expanding, not closing in on itself. The weight of the entire universe can't stop this expantion. This expantion also verifies that there must have been an explosion of some sort at the start of this universe. Call it the "big bang" if you want to.
</li><li><b>Black hole > light particles</b>
Because the blackhole it's mass is way higher then the mass or movement energy light has.
</li><li>A virus vs the immumesystem. This it harder to explain since the outcome can differ. Sometimes resulting in life or death or a draw. The virus will win if the immumesystem is to weak to combat it. The same will happen when the opposite is true.
</li><li>We live in a universe where there is a delicate balance between matter, energy and time. If this balance didn't exist then one of them would consume the rest because it is stronger. I said delicate balance, but in fact that isn't the truth since time seems to have the upper hand and that's why we have death in lifeforms. galaxies planets/stars. Will the universe at one time die? Noone will be able to determin that until it happens. And what happens after that, will it start all over again is this a vicious loop from which nothing can escape, the ultimate battle of everything to be the strongest thing there is. All very interesting question noone can awnser (yet)
This will lead to the question of is there a god which has created us in his image? Logic would tell you there is something out there which combines everything together, making the existance of something like that illogical and again something humans do. God was created in the mind of man to explain the things he/she cannot explain. Maybe one day we can explain everything, when will that happen? Only time will tell</li></ul>Now the human race has something called selfawareness. This sometimes stops this natural course of action. Preservation of nature and endangered lifeforms for example. Some people care and some people don't care about this. Which in itself is also explainatory in the following example.
This need to preserve nature/wildlife is stronger in some people then the need to conquer and destroy. Can be messured through sience if theres a need to do so with a liedetector while awnsering questions in relation to this subject.
My ultimate point is that life is the simple course of Natural-selection, the weak will perish the strong will survive. Everything (matter/energy/lifeforms) which is stronger then something else will ultimately defeat or destroy it. Ironic on these forums and all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit]
typos/grammar <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument holds water - To a point. Something that I have been basing my arguments upon, is an assumption, regarding the simplification of the laws of physics.
The more we study physics, the more we simplify, the more seemingly disparate laws of nature come together. Im talking about Unification of Forces, Quantum Physics. The Electromagnetic force and the Weak Nuclear Force unify to the Electroweak force, the unification of the Electroweak force with the Strong Nuclear force into the Grand Unified force, and (Im assuming) the unification of Grand Unified with the Universal Gravitational force, into Unified Field theory.
This level, is a level on which there is no differentiaton between bosons and fermions, time, space, etc. It is the fundamental level, the most pure existence possible, AKA God. As for being made in God's image, thats something that has always struck me as absurd, for how could anything NOT be in gods image?
Anyway, you are making comments as to the objectives of Life, as opposed to existence itself. We all know that life can be... competetive. Sure the weak will perish and the strong will survive, but on a deeper level, does it even matter?
Kouji San: Other than the fact that I personally wouldn't define life as 'one thing that affects another' it makes no difference to my point. If you want to say that the definition of life doesn't automatically include the ability to decide on and with purpose (even if every example we can currently think of does) that's fine. My point is without that ability to consciously decide there is no way to... assign purpose and meaning to something.
That's it exactly actually, it is free will that gives purpose. We'll put the fact that I don't believe in it to one side (for the moment at least) and I'll pretend that humans have free will. Unfortunately when that source of freewill ends, so does all of the meaning it created. Does a fork have a point or a pupose if the entire human race is wiped out? Does it have meaning if there is nothing to eat, nothing to use it? No, it just becomes a strangely shaped piece of metal.
That is why the universe has no purpose without god, because only something that will never end and is outside the universe can give it purpose. However I don't believe in a god which means for me the universe is pointless.
Oh, and if you want to make 'gods' creation of the universe scientific then that is fine, but that doesn't mean that god <i>is</i> the big bang, simply that the big bang was caused by him and, if his omniprescence is true, then it is also a part of him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Anyway, you are making comments as to the objectives of Life, as opposed to existence itself. We all know that life can be... competetive. Sure the weak will perish and the strong will survive, but on a deeper level, does it even matter?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forgot to mention this point so I'm glad I can quote such a handy like soundbyte.
Also it seems logical that something outside this universe can't influence anything in this universe. As soon as it tries to enter our universe it would cease to exist, since it's molecules have never existed in our universe.
Life = 'one thing that affects another' seems logical and true <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Is there a meaning to life? Yes there is, I mean compare our current state of living to the beginning. Haven't we evolved into a more efficient being to plunder our planet then when we were just the simple hunter with sticks and spears?
Life in it's basic form is also striving to be the best at what they do, so they naturally evolve into more effecient beings to do their job. Over miljions of years resulting in us and many other lifeforms. In fact we aren't just one being, but combined of miljions of other beings called cells, which are composed of molecules, which are composed of quads and so on if there is anything beyond that.
So life is indeed 'one thing that affects another'
Thoughts and our free will, where do they come from? Probably they are a natural process of all our cells commucating with each other, who knows...
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That is why the universe has no purpose without god, because only something that will never end and is outside the universe can give it purpose. However I don't believe in a god which means for me the universe is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, this is what it essentially boils down to, Does the Infinite/Unified Field/God have an intelligence of some kind? If yes, existence must have purpose. If no, existence is simply inevitable manifestation, and has no point.
As to the question of whether the Absolute has any kind of intelligence (Even if its restricted to the simple concept of "being") Who is to say one way or the other? The only way to tell, is to be it, and as we must have restrictions to exist in the first place, we have no means of knowing.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't have time to (and don't want to) post my own stuff in this topic, but my friend said something interesting today; "Our lives are a fiction that exists only in our own minds, everything that is truly real passes instantaneously and becomes another addition to your version of memory."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I once joked "I am a figment of my own imagination." and later, I was surprised at the truth it held. Its actually one of the little things that motivated me to pursue this topic, interestingly enough. You got a wise friend there.