Shoot The Rt, Don't Knife It
afratnikov
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
<div class="IPBDescription">... while comm drops ammo</div> [EDIT] Disregard this first post and read on instead. It would have been a nice tactic if the numbers in the NS Guide were right, but in game the LMG doesn't kill RTs faster than the knife.
As we all know RTs are very valuable to aliens. So i propose for the marines to shoot the alien RTs instead of knifing them while the commander drops 3-5 packs to replenish lost ammo.
Benefits:
1. Increases the chance of the RT going down, because aliens have less time to react
2. Because the RT goes down faster, aliens will not gain resources for a couple of seconds it would have been up.
3. Allows the marine RT to be built earlier, which gives marines some extra resources
4. Even if the RT doesn't die, it will have lost more health and will be shot down easier next time
5. Allows the marine to move on to do something else earlier
6. Marine can shoot from some distance instead of sitting by the RT.
Problems:
1. Ammo will cost up to 5 resources for each RT
2. Skulks might ambush while you need to reload (should hear him coming though)
3. Requires comm’s attention who could be doing something more important
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Here are some numbers thrown at you (all data taken from NS official manual)
The LMG is unupgraded. I don’t know what the actual LMG reload time is, but I think it should be close to 2 seconds. Please tell me the actual reload time so I can edit the calculations.
LMG (2sec reload): 71.4 damage/second (I think this should be close to actual value)
Knife: 46.2 damage/second
Time to kill RT with Knife: 54.1 seconds
Time to kill RT with LMG (2sec reload): 35.0 seconds (40 sec if reload is 3 seconds)
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Since RTs give 1 resource every 4 seconds, by killing an RT 19 seconds earlier it takes away 5 resources from the aliens. Furthermore, if the comm drops an RT, then he will get 5 more resources in the time saved. The marines will also have 20 seconds more time to move ahead.
What are your thoughts?
As we all know RTs are very valuable to aliens. So i propose for the marines to shoot the alien RTs instead of knifing them while the commander drops 3-5 packs to replenish lost ammo.
Benefits:
1. Increases the chance of the RT going down, because aliens have less time to react
2. Because the RT goes down faster, aliens will not gain resources for a couple of seconds it would have been up.
3. Allows the marine RT to be built earlier, which gives marines some extra resources
4. Even if the RT doesn't die, it will have lost more health and will be shot down easier next time
5. Allows the marine to move on to do something else earlier
6. Marine can shoot from some distance instead of sitting by the RT.
Problems:
1. Ammo will cost up to 5 resources for each RT
2. Skulks might ambush while you need to reload (should hear him coming though)
3. Requires comm’s attention who could be doing something more important
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some numbers thrown at you (all data taken from NS official manual)
The LMG is unupgraded. I don’t know what the actual LMG reload time is, but I think it should be close to 2 seconds. Please tell me the actual reload time so I can edit the calculations.
LMG (2sec reload): 71.4 damage/second (I think this should be close to actual value)
Knife: 46.2 damage/second
Time to kill RT with Knife: 54.1 seconds
Time to kill RT with LMG (2sec reload): 35.0 seconds (40 sec if reload is 3 seconds)
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Since RTs give 1 resource every 4 seconds, by killing an RT 19 seconds earlier it takes away 5 resources from the aliens. Furthermore, if the comm drops an RT, then he will get 5 more resources in the time saved. The marines will also have 20 seconds more time to move ahead.
What are your thoughts?
Comments
If you want it down effectivly, you'd want a full 5 marines shooting it down in however long it takes to kill an rt.
My opinion, 2 marines are most likely to be near the rt, put 1 lmg clip, 1 pistol clip, and then knife it. It'll take em about 10 seconds to empty the ammo, and then say another 10 seconds if they both jump it.
Sure the marines will be caught off guard with no ammo in their guns if a skulk arrives, but the death of 2 marines is easily worth the loss of an alien rt early game.
Marine shoots RT. Skulk moves to RT looking for marine as marine reloads. Marine shoots skulk.
Rather than:
Marine knifes RT. Skulk chomps marine who has knife out.
At weapons 0, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 30 seconds (finished off with pistol for speed). They were both almost exactly 30 seconds, finishing right as the second "ticked."
At weapons 1, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 26 seconds. Did not use pistol as the RT was destroyed near the end of a clip. Assuming knife wouldn't change (because it shouldn't), I only tested LMG from there.
At weapons 2, LMG took 23 seconds. I finished off with most of a pistol clip for speed.
At weapons 3, LMG took 21 seconds and I didn't need the pistol. I forgot to record the number of clips used per trial but I believe it was 5, 5, 4, 4 in order of weapons level. It has a sort of symmetry to it that I like. The time taken decreased by 4, then 3, then 2 seconds. I assume that the reload time is the reason the decrease is not linear.
Also as mentioned there is no benefit to using LMG until weapons 1.
but either way, nothing gives that feeling of getting owned like a shotty rush
At weapons 0, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 30 seconds (finished off with pistol for speed). They were both almost exactly 30 seconds, finishing right as the second "ticked."
At weapons 1, knife took 30 seconds and LMG took 26 seconds. Did not use pistol as the RT was destroyed near the end of a clip. Assuming knife wouldn't change (because it shouldn't), I only tested LMG from there.
At weapons 2, LMG took 23 seconds. I finished off with most of a pistol clip for speed.
At weapons 3, LMG took 21 seconds and I didn't need the pistol. I forgot to record the number of clips used per trial but I believe it was 5, 5, 4, 4 in order of weapons level. It has a sort of symmetry to it that I like. The time taken decreased by 4, then 3, then 2 seconds. I assume that the reload time is the reason the decrease is not linear.
Also as mentioned there is no benefit to using LMG until weapons 1. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess knife does double damage against buildings - thant would explain the huge error. If knife does do double damage, then there isn't really a reason to shoot an RT unless it is difficult to be in knifeing range.
all you have to do is to wait that they reload. Then eat everyone.
Rather than:
Marine knifes RT. Skulk chomps marine who has knife out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sine when have marines been unable to draw the LMG before the skulk is within killing distance?! A reloading marine has less chance of switching to pistol and killing the skulk than the chance the "knife out" marine has of killing the skulk by switching to LMG.
When have you EVER thought "Oh, that marine has his knife out, he's vulnerable, let's go for the kill"?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-tuutti2+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tuutti2)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a skulk I just love those dumb marines who emty their clips to rts.
All you have to do is to wait that they reload. Then eat everyone.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh. 2+ marines with pistols and knives > a skulk. Besides, anyone with any sense would have the marines firing at the rt alternatively. AND you'd hear the skulk comming, so stop shooting and be prepared for it.
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Personally my choice of RT killing medium depends on the location of the rt in question, (with relation to hive and MS/relocation spot,) and the last known location of fades/MT blips.
<ul><li>If I'm in a hive room (no hive,) I'd knife the RT. It's slower, but I'm probably far from MS and so tactically useful from the comm's perspective. The more marines in the field, the better. More options for maneouvers, more map control.
There's unlikely to be any skulks around, as they are neither spawning nearby, nor would they be passing through en route to elsewhere. (Most hives are at extremes of map.) It's benificial for me to take down the rt quickly by LMGing it, but the tactical advantage out weighs this.
</li><li>If it's say, a node near MS (station access on ecl,) I'd knife it, finishing off with EITHER LMG/pistol, depending on range**
This is my typical choice; If I die, I can get back to the node quickly. If I don't die, I have more ammo for later. The node is likely to be destroyed by marines anyway, (as it's a common marine pathway,) so time is less important than ammo conservation.
It could be argued that I should LMG this node and hope for ammo. I'd say that there's little difference. The comm will almost certainly drop a marine node, as it's close to MS, and you'd gain more res that way than you loose to ammo packs. However if you die to a skulk it's a MUCH bigger loss than the potential gain. THEY get 1-3 res, you DON'T get their rt, you DON'T get their 1-3 res, you DON'T get an rt. </li><li>
**(Cramped rts in corners surrounded by vents, (eg near pressure on ayumi) would be better to pistol, as you have an LMG clip for close encounters. Station access tends to LMG, as you'll engage the skulk at pistol range no matter which side he attacks from.)
</li><li>Nodes on critcal health should always be LMG'd. You'll likely only have reload once, and if a node is on less than 100% health it means some other rine has died knifing it, so you may be expecting company shortly.</li></ul>
Summary (you lazy person!): I would never LMG a node unless it was already on low HP and I was going to die to a fade/skulk. <b>Knifing is a compromise between ideal efficiency and increasing your chances of surviing to a skulk attack.</b>
why? because i have *gasp* ears , i hear when skulks come, i can stop to knife, draw my lmg and kill the skulk
no big problem
if i should die, i could get more ammo at base, now that i know it need the extra ammo
1) The point is that you have more OPEN SPACE around you, so you have a better LINE OF FIRE on any skulks defending the rt. Which can't be said if you're standing next to the rt as you have a huge blind spot behind the rt.
2) You have at least 2 marines there always, dont try to rambo an rt with LMG. They shoot alternatively, one hitting the node whilst the other covers the side / rear. If you hear skulks or a pistol, you turn and help out the marine with the empty LMG clip.
This method is only recommended if it's a high-risk rt (Examples Power-subjuntion and South Loop on eclipse), or an rt which is easily pressured (CC Hive or Horseshoe on eclipse)
Seriously, either knife it all the way if it's an out of the way node, or group up and shoot it down. Remember how power-sub rt ALWAYS used to be lmg'd down because you could stand in the power-sub corridor and cover ridiculously easily? That node was a f**king nightmare to knife down - think about what you're doing in future 'rines.
Cause a single lmg can not kill an rt in one clip.
What does all this mean? -- in general, do NOT shoot an RT with LMG and then wait for a skulk to eat you, because knifing it is just as fast.
I see several reasons to use an LMG:
- you can shoot an RT from afar without exposing yourself to danger
- when RT has couple bars left and a fade will surely kill you, run around and shoot the RT
- you got lvl2 or higher weapon and, for some unknown reason, lots of ammo.
I always thoguht that LMG does do more damage per second than knife to buildings, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I guess this is one more reason not to hump the armory forever, since this extra ammo won't help you kill RTs (unless you do it from afar).
[EDIT] something is really wrong with the data in the Official NS Guide (there ARE other mistakes in it), or i'm screwing up the calcualtions. The numbers i found don't make any sense at all in the game. I'll make some more tests on servers and later post my findings.
2) sv_numericdamage 1 (sp?)
3) knife an alien rt
4) observer knife does standard damage vs structures
5) cry
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
mp_drawdamage 1
Cause a single lmg can not kill an rt in one clip. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um what? I explained that I didn't keep track of how many clips I used (didn't think about it). But I thought that it was 5+1, 5, 4+1, 4 (+1 indicating pistol clip finisher). So in summation: reading skills win wars!
everytime i see someone shooting a chamber/hive/node with an HMG i coul cry...
It's so sad nobody knows they do half dmg vs buildings.
HMG's are there to cover that poor shotgunner that takes down that chamber/hive/node so don't waste your bullets!
And there's nothing better to get rid of nodes than a lvl3 shotgun. Send a good rambo/ninja off with one and if he knows what he's doing aliens will lose all rt's (maybe even the one in the hive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
With an lmg i only shoot the nodes from wu1 and if i got enough ammo with me, because most pub comm's don't drop ammo that often :/
everytime i see someone shooting a chamber/hive/node with an HMG i coul cry... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? If you finish it that much faster, all the better. (See first post.)
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If there's 5 HA HMG in a hive room, shooting the hive would be a good idea. Admitedly a mix of weapons would be more ideal, but no comm is perfect.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there's nothing better to get rid of nodes than a lvl3 shotgun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Level 3 GL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
everytime i see someone shooting a chamber/hive/node with an HMG i coul cry... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? If you finish it that much faster, all the better. (See first post.)
--
If there's 5 HA HMG in a hive room, shooting the hive would be a good idea. Admitedly a mix of weapons would be more ideal, but no comm is perfect.
--
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there's nothing better to get rid of nodes than a lvl3 shotgun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Level 3 GL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
but with lmg and u just hawe reload and there comes 3 skulks
everytime i see someone shooting a chamber/hive/node with an HMG i coul cry... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? If you finish it that much faster, all the better. (See first post.)
--
If there's 5 HA HMG in a hive room, shooting the hive would be a good idea. Admitedly a mix of weapons would be more ideal, but no comm is perfect.
--
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there's nothing better to get rid of nodes than a lvl3 shotgun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Level 3 GL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*massquote* :>
Nah lvl3 GL won't takte down a node faster. As far as i know you need more than 4 nades to kill one. While 1 shotgun clip will do for sure and you got 1-2 shots spare in the clip for any skulk that comes by. And a shotgun is cheaper by 5 res <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->