<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+May 31 2005, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ May 31 2005, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Bible is good reading material, give it a try. And my parent's faith guided them in making wise decisions in my upbringing. I am a better person for it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The bible isn't that interesting for the most part. If I wanted to introduce a child to Christianity, I'd encourage them to read the Narnia chronicles, then point out where the influence for that comes from.
I'm still not sure what you got from your upbringing that I missed out on. I wasn't indoctrinated at an early age, but I was brought up on things you would probably consider Good Christian Values. Wise decisions are wise regardless of faith. So what is it?
I also look forward to you actually addressing Sky's points. (:
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it's a vague threat, then clearly that child doesn't have faith in the religion. However, scaring children is incredibly easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It depends on the age group. If a small child is rebelling, then you discipline it; if a teen is, you don't have nearly as much control. If an atheist wants to terrorise their children, though, then Monsters That Come Out At Night would work just as well as God. Not that I think frightening your child to make up for a lack of authority is a good idea.
Note that even when I believed, the threat of God's wrath was vague, since I believed He was all-loving. Besides which, He doesn't even have a form. Not really scary, unless you were going to die soon...
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+May 31 2005, 08:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ May 31 2005, 08:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Blammo8+May 31 2005, 06:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blammo8 @ May 31 2005, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [<!--QuoteBegin-Depot @ May 31 2005+ 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ May 31 2005 @ 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps a definition of "better off" is in order. Let's let the author tell us exactly what he meant by this.
I could easily answer yes on the pretense that "better off" means I'm going to heaven when I die. If you have no faith, you're not going there. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's how it works I don't want to go to heaven. If God is truly the embodiment of good he will let anyone into heaven with a good hart because that's the whole point. I know I'm a good person, I respect and wish the best for anyone who does that as well for all other people and animals. So I won't go to heaven because I don't believe in God? why? Why am I not as good as someone who believes in god? Tell me that. That's like saying I will deny you eternal happieness because you don't like me. Maybe he has good reasons for not liking me? Well that doesn't stop me from granting him eternal happieness, if he's a good person. I also have a good reason for not believing in God. There's no proof, simple as that. (Don't question this proof stuff cause that's way off topic) If he doesn't want me in heaven because I never believed in him my entire life that makes me a better person than God because I wouldn't refuse him. And who can be a better person than God himself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *goes on tangent*
Blammo, you are confused about how Christianity works. It's not that those who believe in God are somehow better than those who don't, and therefore can get into heaven--the basic idea is that <i>none of us</i> is as good as God, and being as good as God is the standard. It only takes one sin for you to fall short of that standard, and not be able to reach heaven.
So since <i>no one</i> can reach heaven on their own, God offered us a loophole...rather than having to pay the price to get there on our own, he offered to pay the price for us, and let us in for free. He <i>wants</i> you to be there...yes, even you who don't believe in him. The only thing you have to do is accept his free offer. But if you don't believe he exists, it's rather difficult to accept his free offer.
(Note--this is not intended to be an argument for Chrisitianity's truth, merely to clear up a fairly important misunderstanding) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, man 2 pages in one night already *sighs and reads*
Lets get back to me not getting in heaven.
If God wants me to be there why won't he make any effort for me getting there. I have no reason to believe in God, if he made an clear effort which he can because he's God I would start believing. Of course I can accept his free offer, he just never made the offer yet. Only several religions have been making offers but how will I know if they're right? And why not give me the offer when I'm dead? That's easy enough, everyone has to face judgement or something right? well make me my offer then, how can I refuse if the evidence is crystal clear. Don't start about the bible being evidence. If billions of people said that Bigfoot exists and there's a book about it as well, it doesn't neccesarilly make me a believer. Again I'm better than God himself because I would make an effort and sacrifices for other people to help them and make them happy. God is not doing this for me
You've still not argued why I'm not a better person than god so my point still stands (of course I'm not a better person but explain why). You've said it yourself this is just an argument how christianity works not logic which explains why I'm wrong... Than why is Depot treating it as such? This is very typical I've seen it happen so many times before. If a person gives four arguments and only one is countered the post is seen as countered and not of value. So I'm still waiting for someone who can explain with plain logic why I'm wrong.
So all in all: God gives me a free offer for eternal happieness and redemption of all my sins. The problem is I have no idea if I'm being conned or not. He doesn't make an effort at all to give me assurance. Also he doesn't bother explaining the whole thing when my time on earth is done.
[Edit] Argh yes forgot about the original topic. I think children aren't better or worse of with or without religion. I don't think Depot or any other religious person to be better or worse of than me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+May 31 2005, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ May 31 2005, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+May 31 2005, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ May 31 2005, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+May 31 2005, 09:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ May 31 2005, 09:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd also like to point out your "case" is based on nothing.
Especially if you cite the bible as your only source for morals, you might want to re-read it. It is not a very good book for only basing your morals on.
*edit* <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course my parents got their morals from their belief in God, and from the Bible and the Ten Commandments, where all Christians get their morals from. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right there... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Directly and solely?</b> Where does it say that? Of course their faith had a major influence on their morals, but no one INCLUDING ME said that was their ONLY influence. And YOU telling someone to re-read the bible? That's a hoot ... Just read the Ten Commandments, that'll give you some good guidance in reference to morals. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I already noted why I'm better off as the author asked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a formal discussion, if you do not hedge your words, your position will be taken as if you were speaking an absolute.
In this case, however, it doesn't really matter. The fact remains that, without the Bible, your parents would probably have been exactly the same when it came to their morals, and they would have raised you exactly the same way. Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities. I don't like making such statements, but you've pretty much brought it upon yourself by claiming that they got their morals from the Bible. They either had their set of morals, which Christianity then strengthened, or Christianity impressed their own morals on them. I hope the latter statement is not the truth.
Oh, and you do NOT want to start discussing the Bible with Cyndane. Just giver her a push, she'll find inconsistencies and mistranslations in it like no other.
If you just want to look at the Ten Commandments..."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, house, etc"? What is that? You can't consciously control what you think; how can simply thinking about how you wish you had xx object that your neighbor has be a sin? You can't tell me you've never been envious in your life, and you also can't tell me you've always felt <u>sorry</u> for being envious.
There, the Ten Commandments are flawed. It's really not that hard. The Bible's a guidebook; use it as such, because it's hardly infallible. Heck, it's not even infallible when you just compare passages from different parts of the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact remains that, without the Bible, your parents would probably have been exactly the same when it came to their morals, and they would have raised you exactly the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> False <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like making such statements, but you've pretty much brought it upon yourself by claiming that they got their morals from the Bible. They either had their set of morals, which Christianity then strengthened, or Christianity impressed their own morals on them. I hope the latter statement is not the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Bible was an excellent guideline for them to get their morals from, and both statements are true. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you just want to look at the Ten Commandments..."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, house, etc"? What is that? You can't consciously control what you think; how can simply thinking about how you wish you had xx object that your neighbor has be a sin? You can't tell me you've never been envious in your life, and you also can't tell me you've always felt <u>sorry</u> for being envious. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course you can consciously control what you think. And if you weaken and sin (and we <b>ALL</b> are sinners) then you seek forgiveness. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, the Ten Commandments are flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That of course is your oppinion, which is flawed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd respond, but I'm too busy stealing, pillaging, and generally living out my innate depravities due to not being a Christian.
I've been called cynical before, but it shocks me that you think humanity is so base that we can't control ourselves without religion.
I'm certainly not saying you should solely rely on religious ideals to keep children in check. I'm sure it's quite possible to raise a child without religion. However, religion makes it a little bit easier on the parents, especially when they aren't around. Then again, I felt as if God was always watching my actions, but that was simply my personal experience as a child.
I was not raised as a Christian, but it always thought that children would spend most of their time hearing in Sunday School "You will go to Hell if..." followed by a list of things they shouldn't do. There were things I chose not to do solely to avoid God's wraith. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree that Sunday school could help. Like you say, another reason to be good. I don't think it would be detrimental to not put your kid through it, though, which is what someone else here seems to suggest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact remains that, without the Bible, your parents would probably have been exactly the same when it came to their morals, and they would have raised you exactly the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> False<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with Depot here, in that his parents wouldn't have had the exact same morals, but I want to point out, that their morals would have arisen from a mix of their own experience, the experiences of those around them, <b>and</b> their religious background. I dont know about you guys, but if there is someone basing 100% of his morals, and thus his actions, upon his religious background, I dont want to be <b>anywhere</b> near them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Salvation is an aspect of Christian faith. I think the proper way to bring someone up, is to show them how to live in a way where they dont <b>need</b> to be saved, and if something goes wrong, they can save themselves. We are on this world, we do what we can, with what we have. If the next world is out of our control, so be it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like making such statements, but you've pretty much brought it upon yourself by claiming that they got their morals from the Bible. They either had their set of morals, which Christianity then strengthened, or Christianity impressed their own morals on them. I hope the latter statement is not the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Bible was an excellent guideline for them to get their morals from, and both statements are true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hmm, Agreed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you just want to look at the Ten Commandments..."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, house, etc"? What is that? You can't consciously control what you think; how can simply thinking about how you wish you had xx object that your neighbor has be a sin? You can't tell me you've never been envious in your life, and you also can't tell me you've always felt <u>sorry</u> for being envious. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course you can consciously control what you think. And if you weaken and sin (and we <b>ALL</b> are sinners) then you seek forgiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Since this is an area pretty specific to Christianity, I think I will keep out of this issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, the Ten Commandments are flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That of course is your oppinion, which is flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Im not an Atheist, I have simply come to the conclusion that <b>ALL</b> of organised religion is fundmentally flawed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Jun 1 2005, 07:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jun 1 2005, 07:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd respond, but I'm too busy stealing, pillaging, and generally living out my innate depravities due to not being a Christian.
I've been called cynical before, but it shocks me that you think humanity is so base that we can't control ourselves without religion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Christianity did such a good job of that, we ran around during periods like the Inquisition butchering Jews, people we didn't like, gypsies, anyone we thought was a witch and more! Because the bible alone instills such great morals that nobody who is christian could possibly do anything so horrible right??
Right?
Oh wait, the entire argument that Depot is making is based on an assumption that religion is the source of morals (which is a dubious concept); because ultimately it was his <i>parents</i> morality that counted, irregardless of the <i>source</i> of the morals. Religious families in the past have commited awful atrocities, because ultimately despite what a religious book says it doesn't MAKE people in any way more moral. It's the society, individuals and people around them that ultimately dictate someones morals. If my parents are religious and teach me that all Americans are evil infidels and I should destroy them, is it the religion that is doing it or the inherent beliefs of my parents? In the same way, if my parents are atheist and teach me the same thing, is it their disbelief in God that makes them say that or the inherent beliefs of the parents?
Religion can be useful as a source of morals, but if people don't bother following them then it's not any particular use. It has and probably will sadly continue, to fail at being the ultimate source of morality. My parents gave me my basic morality, irregardless of religion (which they left up to me incidently) and in addition to that so did the society around me. The society around me is going to do far more towards what I think than is my religion. Perfectly good Christians and Catholics supported heinous regimes of the past that did things like massacre Jews and more. In the same way that there are individuals who twist the Qu'ran and plow planes into innocent civilians and blow their own people to bits with explosive laden cars.
I'm glad you find me interesting, although I'm hardly alone in my beliefs. Regarding the author's question I still feel I'm better off having been raised by parents who have a religious faith.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So they didn't get their morals from said bible?
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> However, I've pointed out multiple times that irregardless of what a religion says should occur 'morally', in the past it has been society around said individuals as they grew up that had the most SIGNIFICANT effect. We live in a society that teaches children not to murder, steal or similar today. However, you cannot attribute that to of religion, because when belief in religion and church attendance was far higher than it is today (comparatively), it was religious individuals who directly <i>defied</i> the morality of the bible. This is why we had events such as the crusades and the like, because it demonstrates directly that the bible WASN'T an absolute source of morals. Rather it was society.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 12:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 10:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So they didn't get their morals from said bible?
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So they did get their morals from the bible... yet the bible says what I posted above.
You are ignoring what you do not want to hear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 11:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ergo, the bible was not important in determining their morality.
You just shot yourself in the foot, because the 'ten commandments' are by and large encompassed by things in society that are already in place such as laws. Therefore, your parents simply by following the 'ten commandments' really haven't had anything significantly different than what anyone else can get simply from laws and the society around them.
As such, your argument really collapses because you've just demonstrated how little of the bible your parents used to get their morality from.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 1 2005, 12:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 1 2005, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 11:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ergo, the bible was not important in determining their morality.
You just shot yourself in the foot, because the 'ten commandments' are by and large encompassed by things in society that are already in place such as laws. Therefore, your parents simply by following the 'ten commandments' really haven't had anything significantly different than what anyone else can get simply from laws and the society around them.
As such, your argument really collapses because you've just demonstrated how little of the bible your parents used to get their morality from.
Oops. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hardly so. Read the Ten Commandments. Again. You'll see things in there that aren't covered by any laws.
Besides, where do you think our forefathers got the basis for these laws?
I think pieceofsoap is winning at the moment <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I believe that every child should be raised to be <i>aware</i> of peoples belief's. More importantly, they should be made aware that there are important questions that they need to ask themselves. A religion is a way of viewing the world and every possible view should be explored or you'll never feel happy in the 'scheme' of things.
Another good reason is that beliefs can severely distort peoples actions and thoughts, everyone should have some experience with people that act like that or one day they'll come unstuck when some fundamentalist acts in a completely stupid but otherwise obvious way.
Should they be forced to pick a religion? No. I read the bible as a child, went to sunday school etc, my parents were both very devout and allowed me to make up my own mind. I had so much respect for my mom that I really tried to get that faith needed but there was nothing there. I tried again with other avenues but still nothing.
So now I am an extremely morale athiest <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hardly so. Read the Ten Commandments. Again. You'll see things in there that aren't covered by any laws.
Besides, where do you think our forefathers got the basis for these laws? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But you've missed the point, because where there are significant commandments, such as thou shall not murder/kill (depending on semantics and translation) we already have laws?
So what morals did your parents get? Do not say the lords name in vain and don't build false idols? These are significant morals are they for dealing with other humans? Really, only TWO commandments (these two) are not covered by various laws (which if you notice would impede of peoples freedom of speech).
So really, you're saying to me that they took their morality from commandments which are largely already covered by society as a whole, while ignoring the VAST majority of the 'morality' of the bible? AMAZING.
Really, let's go back and re-look at my previous argument, which already states that the society around you is more likely to have the largest effect on someones morality. Incidently, which ten commandments? There are several variations on the ten commandments that are entirely based on what bible you have.
Again, I've made an argument (that you've failed to address) that society has an ultimately greater effect on morality than individual religions. This *includes* by default the effect on general morality when in a society one religion is predominant over all the others.
As for your second statement, I'd like to point out that not all of the forefathers were Christian, nor was Americas initial founding document in any way founded on religion. So in short, they based it on what they viewed would be best for a society but NOT on religion (hence the seperation of church and state, which is intended to prevent the Government from doing what the British monarchs had a tendancy to like doing and oppress certain religions).
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 12:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 12:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 12:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 10:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So they didn't get their morals from said bible?
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So they did get their morals from the bible... yet the bible says what I posted above.
You are ignoring what you do not want to hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Bible is a couple thousand times longer than the few lines the ten commandments appear in. You might wanna read the rest of it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 1 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 1 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 12:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 12:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 12:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 10:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So they didn't get their morals from said bible?
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So they did get their morals from the bible... yet the bible says what I posted above.
You are ignoring what you do not want to hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Bible is a couple thousand times longer than the few lines the ten commandments appear in. You might wanna read the rest of it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya think? And it's an ongoing process.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 1 2005, 11:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 1 2005, 11:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> However, I've pointed out multiple times that irregardless of what a religion says should occur 'morally', in the past it has been society around said individuals as they grew up that had the most SIGNIFICANT effect. We live in a society that teaches children not to murder, steal or similar today. However, you cannot attribute that to of religion, because when belief in religion and church attendance was far higher than it is today (comparatively), it was religious individuals who directly <i>defied</i> the morality of the bible. This is why we had events such as the crusades and the like, because it demonstrates directly that the bible WASN'T an absolute source of morals. Rather it was society.
Your argument has been 'disproved' as a result. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing. Its next to unheard of that someone is raised entirely upon religious morality, and by the same token, its next to unheard of that someone is raised with no religious influence. (Even if you are not raised religiously, you still have the influence of the residual religious influence of your ancestry, and societal influences)
Now when you mention the Crusades, for the common person of the era, they are a clear depiction of my earlier points. (In the ranks of society that stand to directly benefit from the crusades you would get into political motivations) In the Crusades you had the clear case of "God hates the Moors, so its fine to kill them." Clearly a case of using religion to bypass ones better judgement.
Now, as to the discussion of specific aspects of Christian Faith, (This part of the Bible over that part of the Bible, etc) I would just like to make it clear, that I refuse to take any part in a discussion of this subject, anywhere on this forum.
Awww.. soap, you know I love you, don't just vanish from that thread. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Even if you have no input on it, you could at least read it...
[on topic] Just to reiterate, it is the parents that instill the moral fibre into their children, and they recieved it from their parents, and so on and so on. Untill you find someone who was still a hunter from so long ago decided oh its bad to hurt people when you live with them in a soceity, which was taught long before religion even entered into the picture.
Which is why it makes no difference if it was a religious household or not. If the parents can't instill basic "goodness" into their children, nothing will.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 04:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 04:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Depot, you really need to watch thegivingtrees thread, you are about to learn exactly what IS in the bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, as to the discussion of specific aspects of Christian Faith, (This part of the Bible over that part of the Bible, etc) I would just like to make it clear, that I refuse to take any part in a discussion of this subject, anywhere on this forum. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ditto that. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To get a better understanding of the Bible I attend the church of my choice. I find that more than sufficient to study God's word. If that's your version of a cop out ... HA!
Comments
The bible isn't that interesting for the most part. If I wanted to introduce a child to Christianity, I'd encourage them to read the Narnia chronicles, then point out where the influence for that comes from.
I'm still not sure what you got from your upbringing that I missed out on. I wasn't indoctrinated at an early age, but I was brought up on things you would probably consider Good Christian Values. Wise decisions are wise regardless of faith. So what is it?
I also look forward to you actually addressing Sky's points. (:
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it's a vague threat, then clearly that child doesn't have faith in the religion. However, scaring children is incredibly easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends on the age group. If a small child is rebelling, then you discipline it; if a teen is, you don't have nearly as much control. If an atheist wants to terrorise their children, though, then Monsters That Come Out At Night would work just as well as God. Not that I think frightening your child to make up for a lack of authority is a good idea.
Note that even when I believed, the threat of God's wrath was vague, since I believed He was all-loving. Besides which, He doesn't even have a form. Not really scary, unless you were going to die soon...
Perhaps a definition of "better off" is in order. Let's let the author tell us exactly what he meant by this.
I could easily answer yes on the pretense that "better off" means I'm going to heaven when I die. If you have no faith, you're not going there. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's how it works I don't want to go to heaven. If God is truly the embodiment of good he will let anyone into heaven with a good hart because that's the whole point. I know I'm a good person, I respect and wish the best for anyone who does that as well for all other people and animals. So I won't go to heaven because I don't believe in God? why? Why am I not as good as someone who believes in god? Tell me that. That's like saying I will deny you eternal happieness because you don't like me. Maybe he has good reasons for not liking me? Well that doesn't stop me from granting him eternal happieness, if he's a good person. I also have a good reason for not believing in God. There's no proof, simple as that. (Don't question this proof stuff cause that's way off topic) If he doesn't want me in heaven because I never believed in him my entire life that makes me a better person than God because I wouldn't refuse him. And who can be a better person than God himself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*goes on tangent*
Blammo, you are confused about how Christianity works. It's not that those who believe in God are somehow better than those who don't, and therefore can get into heaven--the basic idea is that <i>none of us</i> is as good as God, and being as good as God is the standard. It only takes one sin for you to fall short of that standard, and not be able to reach heaven.
So since <i>no one</i> can reach heaven on their own, God offered us a loophole...rather than having to pay the price to get there on our own, he offered to pay the price for us, and let us in for free. He <i>wants</i> you to be there...yes, even you who don't believe in him. The only thing you have to do is accept his free offer. But if you don't believe he exists, it's rather difficult to accept his free offer.
(Note--this is not intended to be an argument for Chrisitianity's truth, merely to clear up a fairly important misunderstanding) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, man 2 pages in one night already *sighs and reads*
Lets get back to me not getting in heaven.
If God wants me to be there why won't he make any effort for me getting there. I have no reason to believe in God, if he made an clear effort which he can because he's God I would start believing. Of course I can accept his free offer, he just never made the offer yet. Only several religions have been making offers but how will I know if they're right? And why not give me the offer when I'm dead? That's easy enough, everyone has to face judgement or something right? well make me my offer then, how can I refuse if the evidence is crystal clear.
Don't start about the bible being evidence. If billions of people said that Bigfoot exists and there's a book about it as well, it doesn't neccesarilly make me a believer.
Again I'm better than God himself because I would make an effort and sacrifices for other people to help them and make them happy. God is not doing this for me
You've still not argued why I'm not a better person than god so my point still stands (of course I'm not a better person but explain why). You've said it yourself this is just an argument how christianity works not logic which explains why I'm wrong... Than why is Depot treating it as such? This is very typical I've seen it happen so many times before. If a person gives four arguments and only one is countered the post is seen as countered and not of value. So I'm still waiting for someone who can explain with plain logic why I'm wrong.
So all in all: God gives me a free offer for eternal happieness and redemption of all my sins. The problem is I have no idea if I'm being conned or not. He doesn't make an effort at all to give me assurance. Also he doesn't bother explaining the whole thing when my time on earth is done.
[Edit] Argh yes forgot about the original topic. I think children aren't better or worse of with or without religion. I don't think Depot or any other religious person to be better or worse of than me.
Especially if you cite the bible as your only source for morals, you might want to re-read it. It is not a very good book for only basing your morals on.
*edit*
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Of course my parents got their morals from their belief in God, and from the Bible and the Ten Commandments, where all Christians get their morals from.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right there... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Directly and solely?</b> Where does it say that? Of course their faith had a major influence on their morals, but no one INCLUDING ME said that was their ONLY influence. And YOU telling someone to re-read the bible? That's a hoot ... Just read the Ten Commandments, that'll give you some good guidance in reference to morals. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I already noted why I'm better off as the author asked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a formal discussion, if you do not hedge your words, your position will be taken as if you were speaking an absolute.
In this case, however, it doesn't really matter. The fact remains that, without the Bible, your parents would probably have been exactly the same when it came to their morals, and they would have raised you exactly the same way. Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities. I don't like making such statements, but you've pretty much brought it upon yourself by claiming that they got their morals from the Bible. They either had their set of morals, which Christianity then strengthened, or Christianity impressed their own morals on them. I hope the latter statement is not the truth.
Oh, and you do NOT want to start discussing the Bible with Cyndane. Just giver her a push, she'll find inconsistencies and mistranslations in it like no other.
If you just want to look at the Ten Commandments..."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, house, etc"? What is that? You can't consciously control what you think; how can simply thinking about how you wish you had xx object that your neighbor has be a sin? You can't tell me you've never been envious in your life, and you also can't tell me you've always felt <u>sorry</u> for being envious.
There, the Ten Commandments are flawed. It's really not that hard. The Bible's a guidebook; use it as such, because it's hardly infallible. Heck, it's not even infallible when you just compare passages from different parts of the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact remains that, without the Bible, your parents would probably have been exactly the same when it came to their morals, and they would have raised you exactly the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> False
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like making such statements, but you've pretty much brought it upon yourself by claiming that they got their morals from the Bible. They either had their set of morals, which Christianity then strengthened, or Christianity impressed their own morals on them. I hope the latter statement is not the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Bible was an excellent guideline for them to get their morals from, and both statements are true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you just want to look at the Ten Commandments..."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, house, etc"? What is that? You can't consciously control what you think; how can simply thinking about how you wish you had xx object that your neighbor has be a sin? You can't tell me you've never been envious in your life, and you also can't tell me you've always felt <u>sorry</u> for being envious. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course you can consciously control what you think. And if you weaken and sin (and we <b>ALL</b> are sinners) then you seek forgiveness.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, the Ten Commandments are flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That of course is your oppinion, which is flawed.
Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd respond, but I'm too busy stealing, pillaging, and generally living out my innate depravities due to not being a Christian.
I've been called cynical before, but it shocks me that you think humanity is so base that we can't control ourselves without religion.
I was not raised as a Christian, but it always thought that children would spend most of their time hearing in Sunday School "You will go to Hell if..." followed by a list of things they shouldn't do. There were things I chose not to do solely to avoid God's wraith. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*edit*
The real struggle is, do I even consider refuting points that have already been refuted with no evidence to back up orginal position.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless, as I have already said, you believe that Christianity "saved" them from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Salvation is an aspect of Christian faith. I think the proper way to bring someone up, is to show them how to live in a way where they dont <b>need</b> to be saved, and if something goes wrong, they can save themselves. We are on this world, we do what we can, with what we have. If the next world is out of our control, so be it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like making such statements, but you've pretty much brought it upon yourself by claiming that they got their morals from the Bible. They either had their set of morals, which Christianity then strengthened, or Christianity impressed their own morals on them. I hope the latter statement is not the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Bible was an excellent guideline for them to get their morals from, and both statements are true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hmm, Agreed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you just want to look at the Ten Commandments..."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, house, etc"? What is that? You can't consciously control what you think; how can simply thinking about how you wish you had xx object that your neighbor has be a sin? You can't tell me you've never been envious in your life, and you also can't tell me you've always felt <u>sorry</u> for being envious. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course you can consciously control what you think. And if you weaken and sin (and we <b>ALL</b> are sinners) then you seek forgiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Since this is an area pretty specific to Christianity, I think I will keep out of this issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, the Ten Commandments are flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That of course is your oppinion, which is flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Im not an Atheist, I have simply come to the conclusion that <b>ALL</b> of organised religion is fundmentally flawed.
Christianity has saved all believers from their own innate depravities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd respond, but I'm too busy stealing, pillaging, and generally living out my innate depravities due to not being a Christian.
I've been called cynical before, but it shocks me that you think humanity is so base that we can't control ourselves without religion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christianity did such a good job of that, we ran around during periods like the Inquisition butchering Jews, people we didn't like, gypsies, anyone we thought was a witch and more! Because the bible alone instills such great morals that nobody who is christian could possibly do anything so horrible right??
Right?
Oh wait, the entire argument that Depot is making is based on an assumption that religion is the source of morals (which is a dubious concept); because ultimately it was his <i>parents</i> morality that counted, irregardless of the <i>source</i> of the morals. Religious families in the past have commited awful atrocities, because ultimately despite what a religious book says it doesn't MAKE people in any way more moral. It's the society, individuals and people around them that ultimately dictate someones morals. If my parents are religious and teach me that all Americans are evil infidels and I should destroy them, is it the religion that is doing it or the inherent beliefs of my parents? In the same way, if my parents are atheist and teach me the same thing, is it their disbelief in God that makes them say that or the inherent beliefs of the parents?
Religion can be useful as a source of morals, but if people don't bother following them then it's not any particular use. It has and probably will sadly continue, to fail at being the ultimate source of morality. My parents gave me my basic morality, irregardless of religion (which they left up to me incidently) and in addition to that so did the society around me. The society around me is going to do far more towards what I think than is my religion. Perfectly good Christians and Catholics supported heinous regimes of the past that did things like massacre Jews and more. In the same way that there are individuals who twist the Qu'ran and plow planes into innocent civilians and blow their own people to bits with explosive laden cars.
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it.
However, I've pointed out multiple times that irregardless of what a religion says should occur 'morally', in the past it has been society around said individuals as they grew up that had the most SIGNIFICANT effect. We live in a society that teaches children not to murder, steal or similar today. However, you cannot attribute that to of religion, because when belief in religion and church attendance was far higher than it is today (comparatively), it was religious individuals who directly <i>defied</i> the morality of the bible. This is why we had events such as the crusades and the like, because it demonstrates directly that the bible WASN'T an absolute source of morals. Rather it was society.
Your argument has been 'disproved' as a result.
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So they did get their morals from the bible... yet the bible says what I posted above.
You are ignoring what you do not want to hear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber.
Ergo, the bible was not important in determining their morality.
You just shot yourself in the foot, because the 'ten commandments' are by and large encompassed by things in society that are already in place such as laws. Therefore, your parents simply by following the 'ten commandments' really haven't had anything significantly different than what anyone else can get simply from laws and the society around them.
As such, your argument really collapses because you've just demonstrated how little of the bible your parents used to get their morality from.
Oops.
Ergo, the bible was not important in determining their morality.
You just shot yourself in the foot, because the 'ten commandments' are by and large encompassed by things in society that are already in place such as laws. Therefore, your parents simply by following the 'ten commandments' really haven't had anything significantly different than what anyone else can get simply from laws and the society around them.
As such, your argument really collapses because you've just demonstrated how little of the bible your parents used to get their morality from.
Oops. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hardly so. Read the Ten Commandments. Again. You'll see things in there that aren't covered by any laws.
Besides, where do you think our forefathers got the basis for these laws?
I believe that every child should be raised to be <i>aware</i> of peoples belief's. More importantly, they should be made aware that there are important questions that they need to ask themselves. A religion is a way of viewing the world and every possible view should be explored or you'll never feel happy in the 'scheme' of things.
Another good reason is that beliefs can severely distort peoples actions and thoughts, everyone should have some experience with people that act like that or one day they'll come unstuck when some fundamentalist acts in a completely stupid but otherwise obvious way.
Should they be forced to pick a religion? No. I read the bible as a child, went to sunday school etc, my parents were both very devout and allowed me to make up my own mind. I had so much respect for my mom that I really tried to get that faith needed but there was nothing there. I tried again with other avenues but still nothing.
So now I am an extremely morale athiest <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Besides, where do you think our forefathers got the basis for these laws? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you've missed the point, because where there are significant commandments, such as thou shall not murder/kill (depending on semantics and translation) we already have laws?
So what morals did your parents get? Do not say the lords name in vain and don't build false idols? These are significant morals are they for dealing with other humans? Really, only TWO commandments (these two) are not covered by various laws (which if you notice would impede of peoples freedom of speech).
So really, you're saying to me that they took their morality from commandments which are largely already covered by society as a whole, while ignoring the VAST majority of the 'morality' of the bible? AMAZING.
Really, let's go back and re-look at my previous argument, which already states that the society around you is more likely to have the largest effect on someones morality. Incidently, which ten commandments? There are several variations on the ten commandments that are entirely based on what bible you have.
Again, I've made an argument (that you've failed to address) that society has an ultimately greater effect on morality than individual religions. This *includes* by default the effect on general morality when in a society one religion is predominant over all the others.
As for your second statement, I'd like to point out that not all of the forefathers were Christian, nor was Americas initial founding document in any way founded on religion. So in short, they based it on what they viewed would be best for a society but NOT on religion (hence the seperation of church and state, which is intended to prevent the Government from doing what the British monarchs had a tendancy to like doing and oppress certain religions).
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So they did get their morals from the bible... yet the bible says what I posted above.
You are ignoring what you do not want to hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Bible is a couple thousand times longer than the few lines the ten commandments appear in. You might wanna read the rest of it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Side stepping the entire refuted statements against you?
Why does this remind me of two someones...
It isn't you that I find interesting, if that was the case I would be more interested in learning about you. However, there are quite a few "you" in this world considering "so many people" hold the same beliefs, you are not unique in that reguard.
What is interesting is the fact you ignore all of the statements that have refuted every claim you make about being "better" off then someone of a non-religious background, which in and of itself isn't that interesting, but what is, is the fact you can't even pinpoint why you are better off without spouting some sort of self-righteous and pretentious rhetoric that has been spoken for a couple thousand years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the Bible was very influential regarding my parents morals. I am not alone in feeling this way, nor has anyone disproved it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So they did get their morals from the bible... yet the bible says what I posted above.
You are ignoring what you do not want to hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I mentioned the Ten Commandments several times. The selective scripture you elected to post had little to do with their moral fiber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Bible is a couple thousand times longer than the few lines the ten commandments appear in. You might wanna read the rest of it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya think? And it's an ongoing process.
However, I've pointed out multiple times that irregardless of what a religion says should occur 'morally', in the past it has been society around said individuals as they grew up that had the most SIGNIFICANT effect. We live in a society that teaches children not to murder, steal or similar today. However, you cannot attribute that to of religion, because when belief in religion and church attendance was far higher than it is today (comparatively), it was religious individuals who directly <i>defied</i> the morality of the bible. This is why we had events such as the crusades and the like, because it demonstrates directly that the bible WASN'T an absolute source of morals. Rather it was society.
Your argument has been 'disproved' as a result. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing. Its next to unheard of that someone is raised entirely upon religious morality, and by the same token, its next to unheard of that someone is raised with no religious influence. (Even if you are not raised religiously, you still have the influence of the residual religious influence of your ancestry, and societal influences)
Now when you mention the Crusades, for the common person of the era, they are a clear depiction of my earlier points. (In the ranks of society that stand to directly benefit from the crusades you would get into political motivations) In the Crusades you had the clear case of "God hates the Moors, so its fine to kill them." Clearly a case of using religion to bypass ones better judgement.
Now, as to the discussion of specific aspects of Christian Faith, (This part of the Bible over that part of the Bible, etc) I would just like to make it clear, that I refuse to take any part in a discussion of this subject, anywhere on this forum.
Even if you have no input on it, you could at least read it...
[on topic]
Just to reiterate, it is the parents that instill the moral fibre into their children, and they recieved it from their parents, and so on and so on. Untill you find someone who was still a hunter from so long ago decided oh its bad to hurt people when you live with them in a soceity, which was taught long before religion even entered into the picture.
Which is why it makes no difference if it was a religious household or not. If the parents can't instill basic "goodness" into their children, nothing will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, as to the discussion of specific aspects of Christian Faith, (This part of the Bible over that part of the Bible, etc) I would just like to make it clear, that I refuse to take any part in a discussion of this subject, anywhere on this forum. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto that. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And good post soap.