<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Master Quest was horrible. Most of the puzzles were made more tedius, not harder, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't really find this to be the case.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You aren't given any clues as to how to progress and there are many, many other places to go, but you won't be able to progress until you find that key. The breakable walls look exactly the same as the walls around them and although they make a different sound when you hit them, this happens maybe one in 5 times and only then if you hit the very center of the wall. So how does the game even let you know that they exist? One of the walls has a skulltula behind it, which you can Z-target. Brilliant! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is exactly how I found it, first time and without the tedium that you describe. Of course, I have a slightly different method to games which I developed from playing ones that had solutions to problems that never made any sense full stop (Try a certain claymation puzzle game, I forget what it is called now, that was literally evil in its puzzles).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is probably the very worst the game has to offer, but I can think of a few other things. Just be warned. Tedium != difficulty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I found them fine and most of them weren't tedious, unless of course you couldn't figure them out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> That's hardly my problem...
This game DEFINES tedium. You know nothing of the meaning, pain or suffering a game can commit onto someone until you have played this game. It's a literal nightmare of completely bizzaire puzzles that make <b>no sense</b> at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll take your complete lack of understanding of Halo and its gameplay mechanics as confirmation of my previous statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take your non-rebuttal as a concession that you can't answer my arguments <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> There isn't anything to 'understand' about a linear FPS where you run down halls shooting enemies with the AI of a brick. Unless I missed a memo somewhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether they've actually played the game enough to form a valid opinion on it is irrelevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I have in fact done so. You just completely ignored what I wrote and now you carry on in your ignorant bliss that nobody who thinks the game is dull, linear rubbish could POSSIBLY have played it. Here's a wake-up call: I did play it, all the way through in fact. It doesn't get any different or better. You run through empty outdoor areas (I remember when dinosaurs and such were going to populate them, so long ago that was...), then wander through generic copy and pasted rooms and rinse, repeat ad nauseum. There are some highlights, such as capturing the gravitational lift pad from the covenant with the marines (night mission in a hill like region, which was quite fun). Sadly, these are immediately thrown away as you then move into the level afterwards, and Halo reminds you that it's an unimaginative FPS as you move through yet more copied and pasted hallways (But in a covenant cruiser no less!).
Again, I've not got any lack of understanding about Halo, because simply put, that would be insultingly implying there was anything to get period. Ultimately, it doesn't change the fact it was an extremely boring run of the mill shooter, with some empty outdoor areas to run some vehicles around in now and again.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 3 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 3 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try a certain claymation puzzle game, I forget what it is called now, that was literally evil in its puzzles <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>The Neverhood?</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-wnn+Jun 3 2005, 03:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wnn @ Jun 3 2005, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 3 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 3 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try a certain claymation puzzle game, I forget what it is called now, that was literally evil in its puzzles <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>The Neverhood?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I just edited my post with the name above.
That game drove me stupid, literally stupid. The logic involved in some of those puzzles just defies any sort of normal human reason. From memory, some people didn't even <i>get out of the first room in the game</i> it's that damn convoluted.
For example, you could change the entire game for the worse by clicking before your little clay dude woke up at the start of the game. This is ALMOST as bad as the text adventure adaptation of THHG2TG, where if you didn't feed the dog at the start of the game (literally 5 minutes in) you got eaten later (near the end no less) and had to restart the entire game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 3 2005, 07:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 3 2005, 07:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Jun 3 2005, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Jun 3 2005, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pulse+Jun 3 2005, 05:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pulse @ Jun 3 2005, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and the PC <i>still</i> has nothing to compete with Ocarina of Time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Beyond Good & Evil is 10x the game that OoT <i>wishes</i> it was, and that's multi-platform. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay...so it took the PC 6 years to "match" it with a more expansive game...with poorer fight mechanics? B:GE was a good game, but it's not strictly better than OoT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, Zelda not being matched is a pretty good thing. Let's look at it this way, a quick analysis of a Zelda game. Be warned, whilst i adore and have fond memories of the likes of Link To The Past and Link's Awakening, this doesn't mean i'm not very critical of the games.
Let's face it, Zelda games are more action than adventure. I come from a background of a LOT of adventure games. Games like the King's Quest, Monkey Island, Sam n Max, Full Throttle, Space Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, Police Quest, Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword... you get the picture. If there's a point and click "proper" adventure game, i've probably played it more than likely beaten it to. Zelda games aren't exactly well known for their gripping, in depth story. Sure, they have a story, moreso than a lot of games (Not saying much, however) and a marginally fleshed out world to go along with it, but it's hardly gripping.
Along with some more slightly traditional puzzles the game has, the Zelda series has always been a pioneer of the "crate pushing" puzzles, if you will, even back to the "classics" of the Zelda series. But wait, now we're in the third dimension, let's put in <b>jumping puzzles</b>. Great. So not only have we got a story that's using action as a major crutch, we've got the puzzles the equivalent of the sound you make when you run your nails down a chalkboard.
Back in my day, we kept our adventures and our action games seperate, and the world was a better place for it. We had deeply involving stories that didn't rely on "twitch" game mechanics to play (Well, kind of, until Full Throttle), and we had character development that meant more than "you got the hookshot".
The Zelda series will always give me good memories of my childhood and the way games used to be, but i'm sorry, since they entered 3d, they've been weak. Windwaker was pretty good, although the travelling <i>everywhere</i> by boat thing was more than tedius (Even after you can use those wind portal... things), and the whole reason i stopped playing it, OoT and MM were both dire. And the only Zelda since Zelda 4 that i've truely like was Minish Cap. And that's 2D. Surprised? I wasn't.
Oh, and the reason why it can't be directly compared to other games of it's ilk ("Action / Adventure") is because more games actually go more in depth as to character progression and customisation, such as Fable, KOTOR 1+2 or Jade Empire. On the surface, they're quite comparable, but when you get into them, they're far more sophisticated than the Zelda series, with a wealth of different skills, paths, choices, subquests, items, armour and weapons.
Whilst Beyond Good & Evil does suffer from being as shallow as Zelda, as far as mechanics, linearity and such, one thing it doesn't suffer from is having a half-baked story about the <i>same</i> damned princess and the <i>same</i> damned villain in <b>every bloody game</b>. The story is pretty deep, compelling, emotional, and a little more original than Zelda's has become.
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 3 2005, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 3 2005, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll take your complete lack of understanding of Halo and its gameplay mechanics as confirmation of my previous statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take your non-rebuttal as a concession that you can't answer my arguments <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> There isn't anything to 'understand' about a linear FPS where you run down halls shooting enemies with the AI of a brick. Unless I missed a memo somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I elected to summarize all of my rebuttals with that (perfectly valid) one instead of saying the same thing about each specific point because every single one of them makes it seem like you've never played Halo and are just reciting tidbits of opinion and information that you heard from different places. I would refute all of the points in your previous post (and that rant down below in this one) if I had more time, but I've got a job I have to do in 5 minutes. Maybe later.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, you could change the entire game for the worse by clicking before your little clay dude woke up at the start of the game. This is ALMOST as bad as the text adventure adaptation of THHG2TG, where if you didn't feed the dog at the start of the game (literally 5 minutes in) you got eaten later (near the end no less) and had to restart the entire game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't forget getting killed on the Vorgon ship because you forgot to pick up some junk mail at the beginning of the game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I elected to summarize all of my rebuttals with that (perfectly valid) one instead of saying the same thing about each specific point because every single one of them makes it seem like you've never played Halo and are just reciting tidbits of opinion and information that you heard from different places. I would refute all of the points in your previous post (and that rant down below in this one) if I had more time, but I've got a job I have to do in 5 minutes. Maybe later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, you'd be wrong. I have indeed played Halo, that is part of the problem I have with it. The fact I ever wasted time with it (playing it through with my nephew no less) and then again on a PC (just to see if it was more bearable with a mouse and keyboard) is part of it.
Again, there isn't anything I've said that is incorrect, because the observations in game bear them out. Unless you can establish that the MILLIONTH corridor in the library really *ISN'T* almost identical looking to the previous one...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Along with some more slightly traditional puzzles the game has, the Zelda series has always been a pioneer of the "crate pushing" puzzles, if you will, even back to the "classics" of the Zelda series. But wait, now we're in the third dimension, let's put in jumping puzzles.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping/timing puzzles IMO are part of the challenge of these games. Of course, how such a subtlety will translate into Halo is beyond me (unless they disable jumping and put in an automatic jumping system?) but I felt they usually weren't too ridiculous. Some games have taken the art of jumping puzzles to an utter extreme, but usually for good (Prince of Persia: Sands of Time).
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 3 2005, 10:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 3 2005, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-wnn+Jun 3 2005, 03:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wnn @ Jun 3 2005, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 3 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 3 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try a certain claymation puzzle game, I forget what it is called now, that was literally evil in its puzzles <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>The Neverhood?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I just edited my post with the name above.
That game drove me stupid, literally stupid. The logic involved in some of those puzzles just defies any sort of normal human reason. From memory, some people didn't even <i>get out of the first room in the game</i> it's that damn convoluted.
For example, you could change the entire game for the worse by clicking before your little clay dude woke up at the start of the game. This is ALMOST as bad as the text adventure adaptation of THHG2TG, where if you didn't feed the dog at the start of the game (literally 5 minutes in) you got eaten later (near the end no less) and had to restart the entire game.
Now <i>THAT</i> is tedium. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Come on, seriously ? I don't recall it being <i>THAT</i> hard, I mean, it took me a year to finish it but I was in the fourth grade..
es, I'd say that your reasoning is sound, but your scales are crooked.
Your general point of comparision are classic adventure games. This is in my perception unfair since they try to achieve something drastically different than the action-adventure Zelda. It's a bit like trying to compare a novel to a fairy tale, really. Sure, the novel will be much more mature and feature a lot more narrative, but at the end of the day, I'll always happily return to the Hobbit. Sure, Zelda has less 'pure' puzzles than an adventure (or even than many RPGs). So what? The joy of Zelda, to me, is not that I can spend hours trying to crack a certain nut (I'll have to admit that I was never really into that part of the experience), but that I can move through a consistent world that requires me to play by its rules all the time. This challenge exists in both puzzle and action, by the way: Having to establish the basic strategy to, for example, kill the skeletons in Wind Waker, was in a way a mini-puzzle in and of itself. That I later get to repeat it only affirms to me that it was no one-time-'trick', but part of the world I'm exploring. Adventures essentially work on a work-reward basis: You get a problem, you solve it, you're rewarded by a new piece of story, repeat. Zelda is much happier to entertain you, rewarding you just for looking around. Which you prefer is obviously going to be a matter of preference, but I don't think you can put a 'bigger than' sign somewhere in there. By the way, we actually agree in that OoT is one of the worse parts of the series - it just featured too many straight dungeons for my tastes - but that doesn't make it dire, it simply makes it a somewhat less gleaming gem.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Zelda games generally have Link using his sword/shield to fight? not just his bow and explosive bow(?) while riding on horses in a stilted halo strafing kind of atmosphere? Don't get me wrong, I love both games alone but put them together and you have a mish-mash of a wannabe game.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Jun 3 2005, 01:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Jun 3 2005, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But wait, now we're in the third dimension, let's put in <b>jumping puzzles</b>. Great. So not only have we got a story that's using action as a major crutch, we've got the puzzles the equivalent of the sound you make when you run your nails down a chalkboard. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Jumping puzzles? In the 3D Zelda's they're just obsticals if anything. There's no timing involved, you just jump from point A to B. The 2D Zeldas had MORE Jumping Puzzles due to the Roc's Feather/Cape, and Side Scrolling-ness.
As for the Mod, it looks lacking of weapons. And the map of Hyrule seems to be a direct rip from OoT, along with Epona. Worth trying, at least once.
Comments
I didn't really find this to be the case.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You aren't given any clues as to how to progress and there are many, many other places to go, but you won't be able to progress until you find that key. The breakable walls look exactly the same as the walls around them and although they make a different sound when you hit them, this happens maybe one in 5 times and only then if you hit the very center of the wall. So how does the game even let you know that they exist? One of the walls has a skulltula behind it, which you can Z-target. Brilliant! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is exactly how I found it, first time and without the tedium that you describe. Of course, I have a slightly different method to games which I developed from playing ones that had solutions to problems that never made any sense full stop (Try a certain claymation puzzle game, I forget what it is called now, that was literally evil in its puzzles).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is probably the very worst the game has to offer, but I can think of a few other things. Just be warned. Tedium != difficulty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I found them fine and most of them weren't tedious, unless of course you couldn't figure them out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> That's hardly my problem...
Found it:
<a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/</a>
This game DEFINES tedium. You know nothing of the meaning, pain or suffering a game can commit onto someone until you have played this game. It's a literal nightmare of completely bizzaire puzzles that make <b>no sense</b> at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I'll take your complete lack of understanding of Halo and its gameplay mechanics as confirmation of my previous statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take your non-rebuttal as a concession that you can't answer my arguments <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> There isn't anything to 'understand' about a linear FPS where you run down halls shooting enemies with the AI of a brick. Unless I missed a memo somewhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether they've actually played the game enough to form a valid opinion on it is irrelevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I have in fact done so. You just completely ignored what I wrote and now you carry on in your ignorant bliss that nobody who thinks the game is dull, linear rubbish could POSSIBLY have played it. Here's a wake-up call: I did play it, all the way through in fact. It doesn't get any different or better. You run through empty outdoor areas (I remember when dinosaurs and such were going to populate them, so long ago that was...), then wander through generic copy and pasted rooms and rinse, repeat ad nauseum. There are some highlights, such as capturing the gravitational lift pad from the covenant with the marines (night mission in a hill like region, which was quite fun). Sadly, these are immediately thrown away as you then move into the level afterwards, and Halo reminds you that it's an unimaginative FPS as you move through yet more copied and pasted hallways (But in a covenant cruiser no less!).
Again, I've not got any lack of understanding about Halo, because simply put, that would be insultingly implying there was anything to get period. Ultimately, it doesn't change the fact it was an extremely boring run of the mill shooter, with some empty outdoor areas to run some vehicles around in now and again.
<a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>The Neverhood?</a>
I think I worked it out as my number 5 favorite game of all time.
<a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>The Neverhood?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I just edited my post with the name above.
That game drove me stupid, literally stupid. The logic involved in some of those puzzles just defies any sort of normal human reason. From memory, some people didn't even <i>get out of the first room in the game</i> it's that damn convoluted.
For example, you could change the entire game for the worse by clicking before your little clay dude woke up at the start of the game. This is ALMOST as bad as the text adventure adaptation of THHG2TG, where if you didn't feed the dog at the start of the game (literally 5 minutes in) you got eaten later (near the end no less) and had to restart the entire game.
Now <i>THAT</i> is tedium.
Beyond Good & Evil is 10x the game that OoT <i>wishes</i> it was, and that's multi-platform. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay...so it took the PC 6 years to "match" it with a more expansive game...with poorer fight mechanics? B:GE was a good game, but it's not strictly better than OoT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, Zelda not being matched is a pretty good thing. Let's look at it this way, a quick analysis of a Zelda game. Be warned, whilst i adore and have fond memories of the likes of Link To The Past and Link's Awakening, this doesn't mean i'm not very critical of the games.
Let's face it, Zelda games are more action than adventure. I come from a background of a LOT of adventure games. Games like the King's Quest, Monkey Island, Sam n Max, Full Throttle, Space Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, Police Quest, Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword... you get the picture. If there's a point and click "proper" adventure game, i've probably played it more than likely beaten it to. Zelda games aren't exactly well known for their gripping, in depth story. Sure, they have a story, moreso than a lot of games (Not saying much, however) and a marginally fleshed out world to go along with it, but it's hardly gripping.
Along with some more slightly traditional puzzles the game has, the Zelda series has always been a pioneer of the "crate pushing" puzzles, if you will, even back to the "classics" of the Zelda series. But wait, now we're in the third dimension, let's put in <b>jumping puzzles</b>. Great. So not only have we got a story that's using action as a major crutch, we've got the puzzles the equivalent of the sound you make when you run your nails down a chalkboard.
Back in my day, we kept our adventures and our action games seperate, and the world was a better place for it. We had deeply involving stories that didn't rely on "twitch" game mechanics to play (Well, kind of, until Full Throttle), and we had character development that meant more than "you got the hookshot".
The Zelda series will always give me good memories of my childhood and the way games used to be, but i'm sorry, since they entered 3d, they've been weak. Windwaker was pretty good, although the travelling <i>everywhere</i> by boat thing was more than tedius (Even after you can use those wind portal... things), and the whole reason i stopped playing it, OoT and MM were both dire. And the only Zelda since Zelda 4 that i've truely like was Minish Cap. And that's 2D. Surprised? I wasn't.
Oh, and the reason why it can't be directly compared to other games of it's ilk ("Action / Adventure") is because more games actually go more in depth as to character progression and customisation, such as Fable, KOTOR 1+2 or Jade Empire. On the surface, they're quite comparable, but when you get into them, they're far more sophisticated than the Zelda series, with a wealth of different skills, paths, choices, subquests, items, armour and weapons.
Whilst Beyond Good & Evil does suffer from being as shallow as Zelda, as far as mechanics, linearity and such, one thing it doesn't suffer from is having a half-baked story about the <i>same</i> damned princess and the <i>same</i> damned villain in <b>every bloody game</b>. The story is pretty deep, compelling, emotional, and a little more original than Zelda's has become.
I'll take your complete lack of understanding of Halo and its gameplay mechanics as confirmation of my previous statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take your non-rebuttal as a concession that you can't answer my arguments <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> There isn't anything to 'understand' about a linear FPS where you run down halls shooting enemies with the AI of a brick. Unless I missed a memo somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I elected to summarize all of my rebuttals with that (perfectly valid) one instead of saying the same thing about each specific point because every single one of them makes it seem like you've never played Halo and are just reciting tidbits of opinion and information that you heard from different places. I would refute all of the points in your previous post (and that rant down below in this one) if I had more time, but I've got a job I have to do in 5 minutes. Maybe later.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, you could change the entire game for the worse by clicking before your little clay dude woke up at the start of the game. This is ALMOST as bad as the text adventure adaptation of THHG2TG, where if you didn't feed the dog at the start of the game (literally 5 minutes in) you got eaten later (near the end no less) and had to restart the entire game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget getting killed on the Vorgon ship because you forgot to pick up some junk mail at the beginning of the game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I elected to summarize all of my rebuttals with that (perfectly valid) one instead of saying the same thing about each specific point because every single one of them makes it seem like you've never played Halo and are just reciting tidbits of opinion and information that you heard from different places. I would refute all of the points in your previous post (and that rant down below in this one) if I had more time, but I've got a job I have to do in 5 minutes. Maybe later.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, you'd be wrong. I have indeed played Halo, that is part of the problem I have with it. The fact I ever wasted time with it (playing it through with my nephew no less) and then again on a PC (just to see if it was more bearable with a mouse and keyboard) is part of it.
Again, there isn't anything I've said that is incorrect, because the observations in game bear them out. Unless you can establish that the MILLIONTH corridor in the library really *ISN'T* almost identical looking to the previous one...
Jumping/timing puzzles IMO are part of the challenge of these games. Of course, how such a subtlety will translate into Halo is beyond me (unless they disable jumping and put in an automatic jumping system?) but I felt they usually weren't too ridiculous. Some games have taken the art of jumping puzzles to an utter extreme, but usually for good (Prince of Persia: Sands of Time).
<a href='http://www.dreamworksgames.com/Games/Neverhood/' target='_blank'>The Neverhood?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I just edited my post with the name above.
That game drove me stupid, literally stupid. The logic involved in some of those puzzles just defies any sort of normal human reason. From memory, some people didn't even <i>get out of the first room in the game</i> it's that damn convoluted.
For example, you could change the entire game for the worse by clicking before your little clay dude woke up at the start of the game. This is ALMOST as bad as the text adventure adaptation of THHG2TG, where if you didn't feed the dog at the start of the game (literally 5 minutes in) you got eaten later (near the end no less) and had to restart the entire game.
Now <i>THAT</i> is tedium. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, seriously ?
I don't recall it being <i>THAT</i> hard, I mean, it took me a year to finish it but I was in the fourth grade..
Your general point of comparision are classic adventure games. This is in my perception unfair since they try to achieve something drastically different than the action-adventure Zelda. It's a bit like trying to compare a novel to a fairy tale, really. Sure, the novel will be much more mature and feature a lot more narrative, but at the end of the day, I'll always happily return to the Hobbit.
Sure, Zelda has less 'pure' puzzles than an adventure (or even than many RPGs). So what? The joy of Zelda, to me, is not that I can spend hours trying to crack a certain nut (I'll have to admit that I was never really into that part of the experience), but that I can move through a consistent world that requires me to play by its rules all the time. This challenge exists in both puzzle and action, by the way: Having to establish the basic strategy to, for example, kill the skeletons in Wind Waker, was in a way a mini-puzzle in and of itself. That I later get to repeat it only affirms to me that it was no one-time-'trick', but part of the world I'm exploring. Adventures essentially work on a work-reward basis: You get a problem, you solve it, you're rewarded by a new piece of story, repeat. Zelda is much happier to entertain you, rewarding you just for looking around. Which you prefer is obviously going to be a matter of preference, but I don't think you can put a 'bigger than' sign somewhere in there.
By the way, we actually agree in that OoT is one of the worse parts of the series - it just featured too many straight dungeons for my tastes - but that doesn't make it dire, it simply makes it a somewhat less gleaming gem.
Jumping puzzles? In the 3D Zelda's they're just obsticals if anything. There's no timing involved, you just jump from point A to B. The 2D Zeldas had MORE Jumping Puzzles due to the Roc's Feather/Cape, and Side Scrolling-ness.
As for the Mod, it looks lacking of weapons. And the map of Hyrule seems to be a direct rip from OoT, along with Epona. Worth trying, at least once.