Well, trade deficits are a massive problem that the US is facing. We're over a trillion in deficits every year with foreign entities.
The problem is currently that the USD is currently in high demand. As I've just said before, all oil is bought and sold on the dollar. That makes the USD high demand. It also makes it so that every central bank has to have large stockpiles of USD to cover their oil purchases.
Since we import so much oil now, there's a massive amount of dollars flowing out of the US at a faster rate than the Saudis can spend. A few oil magnates in the Middle East stockpile their money and sit on it, for the most part. But eventually, they'll have to spend it. Money in the bank is nothing more than just wasted capital.
But, minsk, I'm arguing if that the market is dominated by Mexicans (as a few of you choose to believe), if a company has a substantially large amount of Mexicans working for it, they can't choose to pay under the table because the discrepancy between expenditures and gross would be too large.
<s>Reasa, your damn site is called illegalaliens.us/economics.htm
Do you honestly expect me to believe everything they say there is completely true, factual, and unbiased?</s>
<!--QuoteBegin-Sirus / Forum Rules+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus / Forum Rules)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 5.: Respect other peoples newssources. It is so tempting. Tell someone that you don't believe the newspaper they cited articles from, and the uncomfortably consistent argumentation they built up falls together, leaving you and your notion secure again. Don't ever try that. Discrediting a newssource requires more than that one article from three years ago that wasn't entirely correct, or an obvious political bias - you'll find few newssites without one. Accept that Leftys will often quote facts found on Salon.org, while Conservatives will cite FOX. Unless you can find contradicting factual data, you will have to accept the newssources validity and instead go the hard way, argumentatively tackling the points based upon those articles.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 15 2005, 11:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 15 2005, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Reasa, your damn site is called illegalaliens.us/economics.htm
Do you honestly expect me to believe everything they say there is completely true, factual, and unbiased? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, instead of looking at what they have to say you immediately dismiss the site because of its name. I’m pretty sure there’s a forum rule about not doing this. The site could be called “wehatemexicans.com” and it wouldn’t take away from the truth of their argument economically if you would have bothered to read it.
They share many of the same viewpoints as I do and you take the time to debate me.
Now put down your Economics 101 text book and read this if you want to continue debating: <a href='http://www.populationenvironmentresearch.org/papers/Colemanmigration.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www.populationenvironmentresearch.o...anmigration.pdf</a>
The writer of this article is pulling **** from out of his ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More strategically, immigration distorts economies and creates dependence on further immigration. It allows obsolete low-wage, low-productivity enterprises to continue in poor conditions, which otherwise would have to raise the wages of their workers, introduce more capital intensive processes or export the function to the countries where it could be performed more cheaply for everyone's benefit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Earlier on, he says...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Business interests however are short-term. Easy immediate access to labor will always be preferred to the costs of training and capital investment for the longer term.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's as if he never studied economics at all. What do immigrants supply? Cheap, unskilled labor. It doesn't take much skill to flip a burger or hammer a nail. What the hell is he talking about when he says "introduce more capital intensive processes or export the function to the countries where it could be performed more cheaply for everyone's benefit"? We're going to contract people across the globe to build our houses and ask us if we would like fries with our burger?
The whole point of immigration is that it inherently strengthens the economy by providing: a new labor pool, a new market for goods to be sold, new markets to be created due to accomodations for said immigrants.
How is cheap labor obsolete, it obviously isn't since we're still using it and it still helps us. If something isn't worth doing, then it's obsolete. If you don't get much of a return, you'll go to something with a higher return.
This whole essay is nothing but some idiot citing various, unconnected sources that just makes his work an exercise in stupidity.
And finally, why the hell are you quoting British guys who focus on British issues. This is an American issue that should be debated by Americans. You're not going anywhere with just quoting some faraway person who's commentating on an entirely different scenario.
Put down my economics 101 textbook? I'm not reading any textbook on economics. I read articles from the Federal government, newspapers, and online sources. You however have no grasp of economics at all, and you simply ignore what I have to say, claiming that it's inherently wrong, that I cite no real examples, and therefore my entire argument is flawed. It's pointless to continue. I'm willing to listen to what you say, but you've done nothing to reciprocate. You just go off on a different subject when I explain to you why you were wrong on the previous subject.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 15 2005, 12:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 15 2005, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's as if he never studied economics at all. What do immigrants supply? Cheap, unskilled labor. It doesn't take much skill to flip a burger or hammer a nail. What the hell is he talking about when he says "introduce more capital intensive processes or export the function to the countries where it could be performed more cheaply for everyone's benefit"? We're going to contract people across the globe to build our houses and ask us if we would like fries with our burger?
The whole point of immigration is that it inherently strengthens the economy by providing: a new labor pool, a new market for goods to be sold, new markets to be created due to accomodations for said immigrants.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What he’s saying is because immigrants are so cheap we rush them in, use them up, and throw them away. However as more and more companies do this their competitors are going to have to do this as well and they become dependent on illegal immigrants to keep their businesses afloat.
This of course drives down the standard pay for workers and while Mexicans can work for such low wages Americans can not.
I think the problem here is your arguing economics while I’m arguing nationalism and citizens rights.
No illegal immigrant should ever get a job in America over an American, correct?
For if they do American citizenship is worthless and minimum wage that workers in this country have struggled for years to attain is basically a dieing standard.
What makes you think there is a lack of cheap, unskilled labor in America? These American citizens are entitled to even the lowliest of jobs before any illegal is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How is cheap labor obsolete, it obviously isn't since we're still using it and it still helps us. If something isn't worth doing, then it's obsolete. If you don't get much of a return, you'll go to something with a higher return.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see there you go again debating things in terms of economics without any concern for the affect on Americans. Of course you seem to think this has a positive affect because, I, like all other natural born American was born stagnant and completely dependent upon immigration from Mexico to keep my native land afloat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This whole essay is nothing but some idiot citing various, unconnected sources that just makes his work an exercise in stupidity.
And finally, why the hell are you quoting British guys who focus on British issues. This is an American issue that should be debated by Americans. You're not going anywhere with just quoting some faraway person who's commentating on an entirely different scenario.
Put down my economics 101 textbook? I'm not reading any textbook on economics. I read articles from the Federal government, newspapers, and online sources. You however have no grasp of economics at all, and you simply ignore what I have to say, claiming that it's inherently wrong, that I cite no real examples, and therefore my entire argument is flawed. It's pointless to continue. I'm willing to listen to what you say, but you've done nothing to reciprocate. You just go off on a different subject when I explain to you why you were wrong on the previous subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly you didn't read through it very well or are incapable of dealing with anything that contradicts your views. Does him being a Brit take anything away from the argument?
You keep insulting my sources and even the person who wrote it but you don't seem to be debating much. Why don't you just quote directly from your first post?
I would <i>love</i> to quote from reliable American sources but Americans like to pretend that this issue well just go away. Illegal immigration is hardly ever on the news. The last big thing on it was done by TIME if you remember. I suggest you read it BTW it doesn’t paint the same rosy economic picture you do. But I guess you'll just call the guy an idiot and pretend you know more then he does...so don't bother.
And for the 5th or 6th time I'm going to ask you for some reliable sources of all this supposed good illegal immigration is doing this country, kindly find some.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Haven't read the whole pdf yet, but I've found at least one statement so far that is patently false. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Business interests however are short-term. Easy immediate access to labour will always be preferred to the costs of training and capital investment for the longer term.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 15 2005, 12:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 15 2005, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For if they do American citizenship is worthless and minimum wage that workers in this country have struggled for years to attain is basically a dieing standard. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an entire other debate (related though) but I wouldn't say there's really a consensus that a minimum wage is a positive thing. There are people in this country who simply are not cost effective to employ at minimum wage. The minimum wage means that they cannot physically get jobs. Additionally, most salaries for unskilled and semiskilled work in this country are set far above minimum wage. You can make $12+ an hour putting items into boxes in a factory.
I also thought I would note that the conversation has shifted away from easing legal immigration to the effects of illegal immigration. The first discussion has the potential, I think, to be a lot more productive.
The US imports about 200% more than it exports, mostly in the forms of oils, petrolium products (read, plastics, cheap manufactured goods, ect), and light industrial products. The only thing we really get back out of the deal are things like heavy industrial products (eg, cars, planes, war supplies, ect) and other such "industrial" productions. Catch mah drift?
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 15 2005, 11:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 15 2005, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But, minsk, I'm arguing if that the market is dominated by Mexicans (as a few of you choose to believe), if a company has a substantially large amount of Mexicans working for it, they can't choose to pay under the table because the discrepancy between expenditures and gross would be too large.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then please explain to me why so many Mexicans are coming here for work and getting hired?
They certainly aren't getting paid minimum wage and you seem to think that it's impossible to hide these things from the <i>ever watchful</i> eyes of the government who as we all know is <i>ever so strict</i> towards businesses.
Do you really expect me to believe the orchard owners in CA are paying all those Mexicans minimum wage and reporting them all to the government?
The Mexicans come up during harvest season because they know they’ll all have work for awhile and then they quickly retreat back to Mexico with their pay. Of course the owners count on this and some of them actually advertise.
I read an article about this I'll see if I can dig it up.
You're going to be the minority in 20 years. Sorry. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On another note, it's cheap, foreign labor that's what keeps America's agricultural industry afloat. In order to fulfill the quota for farmhands and other underpaid, underemployed industries, you'd need a lot of Johnnyboys and Kyles to emmigrate to crappy areas like eastern California, Nevada, Wyoming, etc. Then you'd need to convince them to work for crap pay. The fulfillment of both these things is extremely unlikely.
Why exactly are you complaining? They pick strawberries and wash our dishes. They pay into our taxes and then don't even hang around long enough to make claim to them. So what if they skip home after working here so that their families can have three decent meals a day? Get an education and suck it up. You'll have a future yet, sport.
<!--QuoteBegin-Antrel+Jun 16 2005, 01:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Antrel @ Jun 16 2005, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On another note, it's cheap, foreign labor that's what keeps America's agricultural industry afloat. In order to fulfill the quota for farmhands and other underpaid, underemployed industries, you'd need a lot of Johnnyboys and Kyles to emmigrate to crappy areas like eastern California, Nevada, Wyoming, etc. Then you'd need to convince them to work for crap pay. The fulfillment of both these things is extremely unlikely.
Why exactly are you complaining? They pick strawberries and wash our dishes. They pay into our taxes and then don't even hang around long enough to make claim to them. So what if they skip home after working here so that their families can have three decent meals a day? Get an education and suck it up. You'll have a future yet, sport. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A lot of em skip home BEFORE paying taxes, and bad extradition laws keep em from being persecuted
<!--QuoteBegin-Antrel+Jun 16 2005, 01:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Antrel @ Jun 16 2005, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why exactly are you complaining? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're going to be the minority in 20 years. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They pick strawberries and wash our dishes. They pay into our taxes and then don't even hang around long enough to make claim to them. So what if they skip home after working here so that their families can have three decent meals a day? Get an education and suck it up. You'll have a future yet, sport.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't pay our taxes and we can clean our own damn dishes. I'm not worried about my future and my education is nearing its end. Pardon me for worrying about the country that allowed me to have these things.
But nevermind the Mexicans who are **** poor and whos only means for a decent wage by even their standards is to come up to America and take jobs middle-class Americans are too well off to do.
Don't worry. Your precious middle-midupper class isn't going anywhere. There's not too much you should be worried about.
The point of minimum wage is to ensure the poor get enough money to maintain a certain standard-of-living. It's a socialist idea of redistributing wealth to the poorest workers. It isn't necessary for a stable economy, but it does keep people from staging bloody revolts, which is a good thing. As long as everyone has a job and gets enough money to keep them happy, everything's OK.
I suspect most of the unhappiness comes from people working low-paying jobs, at or above minimum wage, but trying to maintain middle-class lifestyles. This isn't the fault of illegal immigrants. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Antrel+Jun 16 2005, 02:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Antrel @ Jun 16 2005, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But nevermind the Mexicans who are **** poor and whos only means for a decent wage by even their standards is to come up to America and take jobs middle-class Americans are too well off to do.
Don't worry. Your precious middle-midupper class isn't going anywhere. There's not too much you should be worried about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What makes you think America has no lower class that needs employment?
Those Mexicans should work on fixing their own government and ask themselves why it is they have to flee to America to find a job. The Mexican government is incredibly corrupt and its economy is entirely propped up by America.
Mexico is very nearly a parasite. I would love for the Mexican people to rise up and do something about their crappy government, but why should they when running to America is so much easier?
What’s this "precious middle-midupper class"? I'm not defending any particular class of people here; I'm defending America as a whole.
And what of the roofing and construction market? There are plenty of other jobs that mexicans are taking that middle america and more importantly poor america are competing for.
There are only a certain number of jobs that people with a HS diploma or equivalent (or less) can grab that pay well enough for a person to have a family.
There is plenty to worry about and Im tired of being portrayed as lazy and selfish because I state the obvious, this huge influx of illegal unskilled, undereducated mexican immigrants isnt good for america. These immature digs reek of inexperience, obviously either of you havent had the pleasure of being in the mix.
Maybe some of you should join the workforce before you mouth off all these immature digs at us. You people have no flipping clue what your talking about. I am tired of your wishy washy BS arguements, do you have anything new to bring out or not?
Heres another way the poor illegal (but now legal thanks to bushy) immigrants drain our system. What do you think happens when one of these people breaks an arm or gets really sick? They go to the hospital and they will receive free treatment because they have absolutely no money, no bank accounts no nothing. And so the hospital will HAVe to treat them, oh they will do their best to turn them away but in the end they will treat them. Now take a poor american, has a bank account, doesnt have much money in that account but he has one. Has a job, a poor paying job. If he went into that same hospital he would have to pay his way. He might get some subsidies from the government but in the end he will be in debt, a big chunk of debt for that same service. Why? Because he isnt poor enough thats why.
HEALTH COSTS ARE THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF BANKRUPTSY IN THIS COUNTRY!
You sit there insulting me and others but you are totaly clueless as to whats going on out there. I can symptathize with the mexicans and their plight but you know what? It isnt our problem, we (americans) have enough problems of our own, problems that don't get addressed or cured.
@Rapier
I dont understand why nativism is so ugly. Youll find that in any country and people do it for good reasons. But just tell me what exactly is your definition of "nativism".
I think some of you people need to start balancing Idealism with Realism.
<!--QuoteBegin-Antrel+Jun 16 2005, 02:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Antrel @ Jun 16 2005, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But nevermind the Mexicans who are **** poor and whos only means for a decent wage by even their standards is to come up to America and take jobs middle-class Americans are too well off to do.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If Americans are not above flipping burgers for a living, then what makes you so sure they wouldn't be willing to do these "dirty" jobs that apparently only illegals are interested in doing?
And honestly, entering a country illegaly is not something to be taken lightly. It boggles my mind that some on this board can be so casual about it all.
Do you leave your front door open at night to let anyone that feels like it sleep on your couch? If not, why not? Because that is what is happening all the time right now along the mexican border.
I don't see it as a bad thing. But I'd rather see them changed by American culture than them change American culture in a market sense. I'd rather not see the things I love being changed according to the change in consumers. But I don't think that's going to be problem as most new immigrants are in poverty and in America the only way out of poverty is adapting, being assimilated into America's rapidly changing culture. You can only change it by being a part of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They have sex in poor areas and provide our military with a bank account of soldiers. What good things do you do for America? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good choice of words. Our military is just a bunch of children from illegaly immigrated hispanics! Yay go our awesome Illegal Mexican Army!
It was a cynical, sarcastic comment. But not far from the truth. If you'll research the lists of top recruiting stations in the country, they're mostly (if not all) inner-city districts and lower-class suburbs. Dubbed the "backdoor draft" where some teenagers have very little choice other than the armed forces if they want any kind of economic success in their lives. Though Hispanics are only 20% of the military OVERALL, you see that percentage rise dramatically when you look into MOS's such as Infantry and 13B (who are currently being reclassed to Infantry/MP in Iraq today).
<!--QuoteBegin-Bosnian Cowboy+Jun 22 2005, 07:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian Cowboy @ Jun 22 2005, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good choice of words. Our military is just a bunch of children from illegaly immigrated hispanics! Yay go our awesome Illegal Mexican Army! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You have just aided my efforts to complete a perfect plan for world domination greatly. Thank you.
Also, I agree that illegal immigration from Mexico and other countries into America needs to be much more strictly controlled, however I also believe that it should be much easier to move here legally. It's better to have a lot of people coming in who will pay taxes and not be exploited (too badly) by large corporations then to have a bunch of people coming here illegally and working for dirt cheap. Also, the increased security of knowing who is entering the country might help on this whole "war on terror" propoganda train.
<!--QuoteBegin-Antrel+Jun 22 2005, 09:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Antrel @ Jun 22 2005, 09:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It was a cynical, sarcastic comment. But not far from the truth. If you'll research the lists of top recruiting stations in the country, they're mostly (if not all) inner-city districts and lower-class suburbs. Dubbed the "backdoor draft" where some teenagers have very little choice other than the armed forces if they want any kind of economic success in their lives. Though Hispanics are only 20% of the military OVERALL, you see that percentage rise dramatically when you look into MOS's such as Infantry and 13B (who are currently being reclassed to Infantry/MP in Iraq today).
BTW: Anybody born in America is a US citizen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> GAH! GAH! GAH! You just implied being in the military is economic success. I have imploded.
Comments
The problem is currently that the USD is currently in high demand. As I've just said before, all oil is bought and sold on the dollar. That makes the USD high demand. It also makes it so that every central bank has to have large stockpiles of USD to cover their oil purchases.
Since we import so much oil now, there's a massive amount of dollars flowing out of the US at a faster rate than the Saudis can spend. A few oil magnates in the Middle East stockpile their money and sit on it, for the most part. But eventually, they'll have to spend it. Money in the bank is nothing more than just wasted capital.
But, minsk, I'm arguing if that the market is dominated by Mexicans (as a few of you choose to believe), if a company has a substantially large amount of Mexicans working for it, they can't choose to pay under the table because the discrepancy between expenditures and gross would be too large.
<s>Reasa, your damn site is called illegalaliens.us/economics.htm
Do you honestly expect me to believe everything they say there is completely true, factual, and unbiased?</s>
<!--QuoteBegin-Sirus / Forum Rules+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus / Forum Rules)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
5.: Respect other peoples newssources.
It is so tempting. Tell someone that you don't believe the newspaper they cited articles from, and the uncomfortably consistent argumentation they built up falls together, leaving you and your notion secure again.
Don't ever try that.
Discrediting a newssource requires more than that one article from three years ago that wasn't entirely correct, or an obvious political bias - you'll find few newssites without one. Accept that Leftys will often quote facts found on Salon.org, while Conservatives will cite FOX. Unless you can find contradicting factual data, you will have to accept the newssources validity and instead go the hard way, argumentatively tackling the points based upon those articles.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you honestly expect me to believe everything they say there is completely true, factual, and unbiased? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, instead of looking at what they have to say you immediately dismiss the site because of its name. I’m pretty sure there’s a forum rule about not doing this. The site could be called “wehatemexicans.com” and it wouldn’t take away from the truth of their argument economically if you would have bothered to read it.
They share many of the same viewpoints as I do and you take the time to debate me.
Now put down your Economics 101 text book and read this if you want to continue debating: <a href='http://www.populationenvironmentresearch.org/papers/Colemanmigration.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www.populationenvironmentresearch.o...anmigration.pdf</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More strategically, immigration distorts economies and creates dependence on further immigration. It allows obsolete low-wage, low-productivity enterprises to continue in poor conditions, which otherwise would have to raise the wages of their workers, introduce more capital intensive processes or export the function to the countries where it could be performed more cheaply for everyone's benefit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Earlier on, he says...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Business interests however are short-term. Easy immediate access to labor will always be preferred to the costs of training and capital investment for the longer term.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's as if he never studied economics at all. What do immigrants supply? Cheap, unskilled labor. It doesn't take much skill to flip a burger or hammer a nail. What the hell is he talking about when he says "introduce more capital intensive processes or export the function to the countries where it could be performed more cheaply for everyone's benefit"? We're going to contract people across the globe to build our houses and ask us if we would like fries with our burger?
The whole point of immigration is that it inherently strengthens the economy by providing: a new labor pool, a new market for goods to be sold, new markets to be created due to accomodations for said immigrants.
How is cheap labor obsolete, it obviously isn't since we're still using it and it still helps us. If something isn't worth doing, then it's obsolete. If you don't get much of a return, you'll go to something with a higher return.
This whole essay is nothing but some idiot citing various, unconnected sources that just makes his work an exercise in stupidity.
And finally, why the hell are you quoting British guys who focus on British issues. This is an American issue that should be debated by Americans. You're not going anywhere with just quoting some faraway person who's commentating on an entirely different scenario.
Put down my economics 101 textbook? I'm not reading any textbook on economics. I read articles from the Federal government, newspapers, and online sources. You however have no grasp of economics at all, and you simply ignore what I have to say, claiming that it's inherently wrong, that I cite no real examples, and therefore my entire argument is flawed. It's pointless to continue. I'm willing to listen to what you say, but you've done nothing to reciprocate. You just go off on a different subject when I explain to you why you were wrong on the previous subject.
The whole point of immigration is that it inherently strengthens the economy by providing: a new labor pool, a new market for goods to be sold, new markets to be created due to accomodations for said immigrants.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he’s saying is because immigrants are so cheap we rush them in, use them up, and throw them away. However as more and more companies do this their competitors are going to have to do this as well and they become dependent on illegal immigrants to keep their businesses afloat.
This of course drives down the standard pay for workers and while Mexicans can work for such low wages Americans can not.
I think the problem here is your arguing economics while I’m arguing nationalism and citizens rights.
No illegal immigrant should ever get a job in America over an American, correct?
For if they do American citizenship is worthless and minimum wage that workers in this country have struggled for years to attain is basically a dieing standard.
What makes you think there is a lack of cheap, unskilled labor in America?
These American citizens are entitled to even the lowliest of jobs before any illegal is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How is cheap labor obsolete, it obviously isn't since we're still using it and it still helps us. If something isn't worth doing, then it's obsolete. If you don't get much of a return, you'll go to something with a higher return.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see there you go again debating things in terms of economics without any concern for the affect on Americans. Of course you seem to think this has a positive affect because, I, like all other natural born American was born stagnant and completely dependent upon immigration from Mexico to keep my native land afloat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This whole essay is nothing but some idiot citing various, unconnected sources that just makes his work an exercise in stupidity.
And finally, why the hell are you quoting British guys who focus on British issues. This is an American issue that should be debated by Americans. You're not going anywhere with just quoting some faraway person who's commentating on an entirely different scenario.
Put down my economics 101 textbook? I'm not reading any textbook on economics. I read articles from the Federal government, newspapers, and online sources. You however have no grasp of economics at all, and you simply ignore what I have to say, claiming that it's inherently wrong, that I cite no real examples, and therefore my entire argument is flawed. It's pointless to continue. I'm willing to listen to what you say, but you've done nothing to reciprocate. You just go off on a different subject when I explain to you why you were wrong on the previous subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly you didn't read through it very well or are incapable of dealing with anything that contradicts your views. Does him being a Brit take anything away from the argument?
You keep insulting my sources and even the person who wrote it but you don't seem to be debating much. Why don't you just quote directly from your first post?
I would <i>love</i> to quote from reliable American sources but Americans like to pretend that this issue well just go away. Illegal immigration is hardly ever on the news. The last big thing on it was done by TIME if you remember. I suggest you read it BTW it doesn’t paint the same rosy economic picture you do. But I guess you'll just call the guy an idiot and pretend you know more then he does...so don't bother.
And for the 5th or 6th time I'm going to ask you for some reliable sources of all this supposed good illegal immigration is doing this country, kindly find some.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Business interests however are short-term. Easy immediate access to labour will always be preferred to the costs of training and capital investment for the longer term.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an entire other debate (related though) but I wouldn't say there's really a consensus that a minimum wage is a positive thing. There are people in this country who simply are not cost effective to employ at minimum wage. The minimum wage means that they cannot physically get jobs. Additionally, most salaries for unskilled and semiskilled work in this country are set far above minimum wage. You can make $12+ an hour putting items into boxes in a factory.
I also thought I would note that the conversation has shifted away from easing legal immigration to the effects of illegal immigration. The first discussion has the potential, I think, to be a lot more productive.
The US imports about 200% more than it exports, mostly in the forms of oils, petrolium products (read, plastics, cheap manufactured goods, ect), and light industrial products. The only thing we really get back out of the deal are things like heavy industrial products (eg, cars, planes, war supplies, ect) and other such "industrial" productions. Catch mah drift?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then please explain to me why so many Mexicans are coming here for work and getting hired?
They certainly aren't getting paid minimum wage and you seem to think that it's impossible to hide these things from the <i>ever watchful</i> eyes of the government who as we all know is <i>ever so strict</i> towards businesses.
Do you really expect me to believe the orchard owners in CA are paying all those Mexicans minimum wage and reporting them all to the government?
The Mexicans come up during harvest season because they know they’ll all have work for awhile and then they quickly retreat back to Mexico with their pay. Of course the owners count on this and some of them actually advertise.
I read an article about this I'll see if I can dig it up.
Why exactly are you complaining? They pick strawberries and wash our dishes. They pay into our taxes and then don't even hang around long enough to make claim to them. So what if they skip home after working here so that their families can have three decent meals a day? Get an education and suck it up. You'll have a future yet, sport.
Why exactly are you complaining? They pick strawberries and wash our dishes. They pay into our taxes and then don't even hang around long enough to make claim to them. So what if they skip home after working here so that their families can have three decent meals a day? Get an education and suck it up. You'll have a future yet, sport. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of em skip home BEFORE paying taxes, and bad extradition laws keep em from being persecuted
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're going to be the minority in 20 years. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They pick strawberries and wash our dishes. They pay into our taxes and then don't even hang around long enough to make claim to them. So what if they skip home after working here so that their families can have three decent meals a day? Get an education and suck it up. You'll have a future yet, sport.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't pay our taxes and we can clean our own damn dishes. I'm not worried about my future and my education is nearing its end. Pardon me for worrying about the country that allowed me to have these things.
Don't worry. Your precious middle-midupper class isn't going anywhere. There's not too much you should be worried about.
I suspect most of the unhappiness comes from people working low-paying jobs, at or above minimum wage, but trying to maintain middle-class lifestyles. This isn't the fault of illegal immigrants. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Don't worry. Your precious middle-midupper class isn't going anywhere. There's not too much you should be worried about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes you think America has no lower class that needs employment?
Those Mexicans should work on fixing their own government and ask themselves why it is they have to flee to America to find a job.
The Mexican government is incredibly corrupt and its economy is entirely propped up by America.
Mexico is very nearly a parasite. I would love for the Mexican people to rise up and do something about their crappy government, but why should they when running to America is so much easier?
What’s this "precious middle-midupper class"? I'm not defending any particular class of people here; I'm defending America as a whole.
There are only a certain number of jobs that people with a HS diploma or equivalent (or less) can grab that pay well enough for a person to have a family.
There is plenty to worry about and Im tired of being portrayed as lazy and selfish because I state the obvious, this huge influx of illegal unskilled, undereducated mexican immigrants isnt good for america. These immature digs reek of inexperience, obviously either of you havent had the pleasure of being in the mix.
Maybe some of you should join the workforce before you mouth off all these immature digs at us. You people have no flipping clue what your talking about. I am tired of your wishy washy BS arguements, do you have anything new to bring out or not?
Heres another way the poor illegal (but now legal thanks to bushy) immigrants drain our system. What do you think happens when one of these people breaks an arm or gets really sick? They go to the hospital and they will receive free treatment because they have absolutely no money, no bank accounts no nothing. And so the hospital will HAVe to treat them, oh they will do their best to turn them away but in the end they will treat them. Now take a poor american, has a bank account, doesnt have much money in that account but he has one. Has a job, a poor paying job. If he went into that same hospital he would have to pay his way. He might get some subsidies from the government but in the end he will be in debt, a big chunk of debt for that same service. Why? Because he isnt poor enough thats why.
HEALTH COSTS ARE THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF BANKRUPTSY IN THIS COUNTRY!
You sit there insulting me and others but you are totaly clueless as to whats going on out there. I can symptathize with the mexicans and their plight but you know what? It isnt our problem, we (americans) have enough problems of our own, problems that don't get addressed or cured.
@Rapier
I dont understand why nativism is so ugly. Youll find that in any country and people do it for good reasons. But just tell me what exactly is your definition of "nativism".
I think some of you people need to start balancing Idealism with Realism.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Americans are not above flipping burgers for a living, then what makes you so sure they wouldn't be willing to do these "dirty" jobs that apparently only illegals are interested in doing?
And honestly, entering a country illegaly is not something to be taken lightly. It boggles my mind that some on this board can be so casual about it all.
Do you leave your front door open at night to let anyone that feels like it sleep on your couch? If not, why not? Because that is what is happening all the time right now along the mexican border.
What good things do you do for America?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They have sex in poor areas and provide our military with a bank account of soldiers.
What good things do you do for America? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good choice of words. Our military is just a bunch of children from illegaly immigrated hispanics! Yay go our awesome Illegal Mexican Army!
BTW: Anybody born in America is a US citizen.
You have just aided my efforts to complete a perfect plan for world domination greatly. Thank you.
Also, I agree that illegal immigration from Mexico and other countries into America needs to be much more strictly controlled, however I also believe that it should be much easier to move here legally. It's better to have a lot of people coming in who will pay taxes and not be exploited (too badly) by large corporations then to have a bunch of people coming here illegally and working for dirt cheap. Also, the increased security of knowing who is entering the country might help on this whole "war on terror" propoganda train.
BTW: Anybody born in America is a US citizen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
GAH! GAH! GAH! You just implied being in the military is economic success. I have imploded.