a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 14 2005, 01:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 14 2005, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You guys are just listing every disadvantage the marines have at hive 2. The reality is that if all of those things were reversed, the game would be just as marine biased.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt anyone wants every one of those advantages to be removed. The numbers merely serve to emphasize the unparalleled effect the second hive has on the game.
The second hive simply offers too many advantages for a single tech, particularly considering its vulnerability. If the marines make a mistake and the second hive goes up, its benefits overpower them. If, on the other hand, the aliens mess up and lose the second hive before it completes, they receive none of its benefits for at least another 3 minutes, during which time they must face advanced marine tech with only mid-tier tech. The game depends too much on this one structure; the odds very quickly stack against the team that loses it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raz+Jun 14 2005, 06:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raz @ Jun 14 2005, 06:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jun 13 2005, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jun 13 2005, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, 2 gorges is 20 res. A decent siege base is PG + TF + upgrade + 3 sieges That's what? 60 res or so? There is no way they should counter each other.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely irrelevant. The marines are paying for the luxury of killing a hive from outside the hive. Wallhax should cost.
Example of why res isnt everything:
3 HMGs (even L0) > 1 fade. Correct? But the fade costs more than 3 HMGs, so shouldn't he be stronger?
No.
To be more accurate, you need more than 2 gorges to -COUNTER- the siege. 2 gorges, 2 fades, an onos or 2 if they are a heavy train perhaps? You're looking at anywhere from 125-200 res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is also important to recognize is that 1 alien resource point does not equal 1 marine respoint.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 14 2005, 07:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 14 2005, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 13 2005, 10:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 13 2005, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of the balance (as in previous versions) is centered around the first 5:00 of game play (or technically when fades come out, which I have seen as early as 2:45, but is rare).
Its essential to the marines to pressure the nodes of the aliens ASAP to break their economy. If their economy is broken, fades can be delayed to about 6:00, assuming the alien team survives.
I've observed that the extra ammo and the little bit of armor (I know its not new, but equally as important) does help a lot. Even though armor 1 is usually the upgrade of choice, sometimes marines do fight skulks without getting parasited. The little buffs do help, but as stated earlier the balance revolves around when aliens get fades, for the most part, and whether or not the marines can counter them with effective upgrades, weapons and tactics.
Just a casual observation from a former competitive player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a lot of truth in that FW.
However your fades are really important because they suceed or fail in defending the second building hive. Thats the real balance of power, fade skill is just a big variable in whether or not the hive happens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are absolutely correct, I neglected to put that in. Unless the second hive can be killed before the marine resources towers are destroyed, OR before the second set of upgrade chambers goes up (ESPECIALLY Sensory), then the marines chances of winning are about that of getting a ninja phase and all out shotgun rushing.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Jun 14 2005, 11:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Jun 14 2005, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lot of people are complaining about the strength of aliens at hive 2 but the real problem is with aliens at hive 1. In previous versions there was innate regen so most every clan went dcs to start and then scs or mcs for hive 2. This led to what I consider to be a major problem with 3.0f in general.
I hate to say it but I think movement chambers are too strong at hive 1 now. Not that they weren't always awesome at hive 1, I mean obs has been using them for quite some time now to beat teams a lot better then us, but with innate regen there is no reason for fades to need dc upgrades at hive 1. Instant teleporting to building hive plus silence and celerity skulks for free it greatly improves the alien early game which allows that second hive to go up.
Then of course once that second hive is up teams have the choice of defense chambers or sensories, but really with meta and innate your fades still don't really need regen at all so most teams go with scs for the most overpowered upgrade in the game. Add in leaping focus silent skulks and you are in for a good time as marines unless you have proto tech ready. Of course focus skulks, lerks, and fades vs jetpackers, or sof celerity onos vs heavies is kind of an unfair matchup.
I really don't know how this could be fixed and I really don't want to see movements get nerfed but there is a substantial problem there. Personally I think that the game should move in a direction away from dependance on the number of hives and focus on speed and skill where the better team won't be penalized because they made a small mistake, or let a hive go up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Another thing that boosts the movement chambers is the adrenaline boost (I believe 25%?) that the aliens get around ONE movement chamber, ESPECIALLY when siege does not damage aliens anymoire. This is not only beneficial to gorges healing the hive (as they can have infinite adrenaline near the movement chambers, with the adrenaline upgrade) it also helps fades and most importantly, lerks.
Lerks can really exploit (note LEGALLY) the celerity upgrade when the defending the hive with movement chambers. They can fly out, spore and/or umbra, fly back, and quicker then it takes to heal have their whole energy meter back for another volley of spores and umbra.
This forces the marines to get welders which at 5 resources a peice can add up. in a 6v6 format to outfit everyone in the field with welders would cost 25 res. My math maybe wrong but I believe its 10 res for a turret factory, and 15 to upgrade to siege? That seems like a significant thing about the game to be concerned about.
My suggestion(s) (though I know it will be ignored) is to lower the energy bonus from 25% per chamber to around maybe 5 or 10%. Or force sieges to not damage aliens, but maybe force knockback (relatively small percentage) so that way the gorge healing on top of the hive is vulnerable to being knocked off. It would force the alien team to be concerned about that gorge AND the hive, rather than just the hive.
Another suggestion would have welders be a researchable upgrade, say around 40 resources, so that whenever a person spawns they can spawn with a welder.
The first two suggestions seem reasonable, either one or the other or both, to give marines a better shot when the second hive is up.
40 res is a pretty tall order though for an upgrade that most people will want early game, not like marines aren't stretched enough having to get a1, w1, w2, AA, PGs and drop weapons without dicking out 40 res for welders when you normally just drop 2 and throw them around.
That 40 res will make armour more viable against an alien team that has a lerk sporing. Spores completely annihilate armour (and res on meds <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), making welders pretty much necessary. It would be a wise investment, but not always. I like that upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 14 2005, 06:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 14 2005, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wouldn't 40 res be too much? hell that's the cost of HA resesarch right there. However, maybe 40 res is a little steep, but the number resources required is insignificant to what researched welders can bring. That is with proper playtesting, a suitable amount of resources could be determined. The point is that researched welders would be effective, the cost is unimportant right now.
I would make it so you can still pay for individual welders, but have the welder upgrade replace handgrenades.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well you have to take into consideration what you are getting.
40 res=8 welders, if you have marines die more than 8 times at time of research, then its already paid for.
Also as a comm you wouldn't have to worry about forgetting to drop them when under pressure.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Jun 14 2005, 08:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Jun 14 2005, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes but 5 res every now and then is no big deal, an extra 40 res upgrade early game is good bye something else (Who needs HMGs or weapons2 anyway?). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> and as stated earlier, the resources could be tweaked, so there is no logic in debating that.
If you are going to criticize the idea, criticize the idea itsself, not a tweakable number.
I've honestly seen more combat games whose outcome is up in the air longer then NS games. The 2nd hive is to important, fades are to important, Aliens just CAN'T rebuild early game, post-hive2 marine gaming is only ninja phases, and there is little chance of shottyless marines taking out a force of upgraded leap skulks.
Here are a few solutions with my reasoning behind them:
- Remove RFK... both teams. At least then early game situations won't be only 5ish minutes. The game wouldn't be 100% focused on that 2nd hive and keeping it down/up. Res towers are important once more.
- Gorge evolution cost lowered. This is to not only extend the time before the 2nd hive/fade is able to be built (less starting res) but to assist alien early game rebuilding (since the focus of the game is hopefully less about hives and more about resources). It shouldn't be more then 5... I'd just make it free like the skulk to make battle gorging something the alien team can do without sucking their RT/hive/fade res dry.
- Make the first skulk upgrade free, after the 2nd hive if the alien wants a upgrade from another chamber it'll cost 1 res. At the 3rd hive... the third and final chamber upgrade would be 2.
- Up skulk walking speed. Its hard to make something quick in a game like HL without people turning that speed into WTHcrackskulksonicboom speed through bunnyhoping. Perhaps the walking speed shouldn't be increased... but WALLSPEED (if thats even possible). I'd like more emphasis put on the skulks wall climb and less on "RUSH THE MARINES". Bunnyhoppers feel they are "skilled" because they can jump around really fast... but the way they use it seems so void of stratigy.
- Ambushing isn't viable Post-MT without sitting for long periods of time (instant death for an alien team BTW... a member being inactive for any amount of time). So i believe aliens going at a walk speed shouldn't show up on MT. It allows for skulks to move into positions for ambushing WHILE the marines are moving about the map.
- Perhaps adding a long wished for wall jump off the wall/roof should be added for increased agility/evasion for wall-running skulks
What this would (hopefully) do is put less focus on fades and hives and put it back in early game type fighting. Isn't that honestly where most of the fun is in NS_ ? I hate seeing game after game of the losing team F4ing after the 8 minute mark.
replacing the hand grenade upgrade with a welder upgrade is still a great idea as hand grenade is pretty much useless.
mt is basicly a wall hack and doesnt cost 40 res, 40 would be too much (depending on the research time).
personally id say 30 res and 40 seconds. not always will marines actually use the welders remember, and its useless for lone marines.
about the mc's giving the adren boost.. often enough sieges will take out the mc's while they are hitting the hive unless the gorge knows where to place them properly (very rare).
personally i think celerity is still overpowering. It makes the higher lifeforms so strong as they can just soak up bullets, it really does need to have its speed increase % lowered a bit. just to stop cele lerks and fades being soo dominant.
sieges are very powerful now but thats ok, just a ***** when against HA with sieges in a high res game.
Early game is still just about balanced and was never really off imho. Cant really give reasons, it was just working for both sides equally.
the gestate time has made like, no difference at all, aliens spend more than 1 second camping to ambush so increasing the time it takes for them to get an upgrade by 1 second was pretty pointless.
not had enough experience with the newest patch to comment on the research time changes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 14 2005, 08:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 14 2005, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Jun 14 2005, 08:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Jun 14 2005, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes but 5 res every now and then is no big deal, an extra 40 res upgrade early game is good bye something else (Who needs HMGs or weapons2 anyway?). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and as stated earlier, the resources could be tweaked, so there is no logic in debating that.
If you are going to criticize the idea, criticize the idea itsself, not a tweakable number.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the idea is fairly good [although you should know its already been suggested], but the problem is welders still leave you fairly open to attack when using them, perhaps 20 res or so and a longer reseach time, say on the armslab so it slows down weapon/armor upgrades when researched.
but now we've simply nerf sticked the skulks with the extra 5 AP which, in all seriousness, doesn't affect fade balance
I say REDUCE skulk DAMAGE and INCREASE it's SPEED
Then, INCREASE fade DAMAGE and DECREASE it's RATE OF FIRE, to make it more pure hit and run
Increase lerk speed in general
To compensate Increase LMG clipsize? Increase LMG per bullet damage? Increase Knife damage? Increase LA speed when only holding a knife (c'mon... I can run faster carrying a 40 pound backpack, a binder, my laptop, and a lunch box)
<!--QuoteBegin-Lump+Jun 14 2005, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Jun 14 2005, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> personally i think celerity is still overpowering. It makes the higher lifeforms so strong as they can just soak up bullets, it really does need to have its speed increase % lowered a bit. just to stop cele lerks and fades being soo dominant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now do you mean carapice? because celerity doesn't let you absorb more bullets... it lets you get away from the marines and back to the hive for healing faster. On pub marines it does make them miss a bit more... but since this is in the competitive forum I'll assume everyone can hit a cele fade reasonably well.
Personally, I'll hold back on judgment until people adjust to the new hit detection code. Let me rephrase that: I wouldn't monkey with balance until we se just how much of an effect the hit detection has on the overall marine game once (assumming 3.0.5 becomes an official release).
I liked it when seiges dealt less damage to chambers but hurt aliens as well.
Your structures didn't drop in half a second yet aliens needed to be careful around the seiges. I thought it was a lot more fun, and seiges back in the day could work on 2 hive aliens.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-ultranewb+Jun 15 2005, 05:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jun 15 2005, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally, I'll hold back on judgment until people adjust to the new hit detection code. Let me rephrase that: I wouldn't monkey with balance until we se just how much of an effect the hit detection has on the overall marine game once (assumming 3.0.5 becomes an official release). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A very valid point.
Also, ease down on the suggestions guys. There's a lot you will NOT see in a server-side patch, and we'll attempt to stay away from any code changes. That means, with the exception of a possible hit detection fix, that we will ONLY tweak numbers pre-3.1.
As with previous threads on the balance issue, keep the discussion down to pinpointing the cruical parts which turns the table for the marines or aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jun 14 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jun 14 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lump+Jun 14 2005, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Jun 14 2005, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> personally i think celerity is still overpowering. It makes the higher lifeforms so strong as they can just soak up bullets, it really does need to have its speed increase % lowered a bit. just to stop cele lerks and fades being soo dominant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now do you mean carapice? because celerity doesn't let you absorb more bullets... it lets you get away from the marines and back to the hive for healing faster. On pub marines it does make them miss a bit more... but since this is in the competitive forum I'll assume everyone can hit a cele fade reasonably well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> nope i mean celerity. cele fades and lerks are harder to hit and will take more bullets to kill no matter how good your aim is, im pretty sure the hitbox prediction isnt as accurate either. combine this with the increased mobility that mc brings you and dc doesnt, also the fact you can reach your target more quickly (less time for people to shoot at you before you're in their face killing them) than other chambers.
I think it would help mid game balance a lot to not lose the AA when the armory dies. If 2 hive aliens kill the armory, its GG for sure.
I heard Zunni say somewhere that welder upgrades would be too powerful. I must say that I dissagree. 8 welders = 40 res. What comm here can say that they often drop so much more than 8 welders in the course of a game. As is, I drop one with every gun, so each shotgunner/hmg'er has one. I think that it would be a marine buff, but its not out of control at all.
Fix marine armor, its just tweakable numbers isn't it?
Permanent AA would be clinically retarded. HMGs and the ability to drop a protolab are both tedious enough to flush out if the marine commander isn't a retard - theres no need for the structure to be technically invincible.
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jun 15 2005, 06:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jun 15 2005, 06:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ultranewb+Jun 15 2005, 05:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jun 15 2005, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally, I'll hold back on judgment until people adjust to the new hit detection code. Let me rephrase that: I wouldn't monkey with balance until we se just how much of an effect the hit detection has on the overall marine game once (assumming 3.0.5 becomes an official release). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A very valid point.
Also, ease down on the suggestions guys. There's a lot you will NOT see in a server-side patch, and we'll attempt to stay away from any code changes. That means, with the exception of a possible hit detection fix, that we will ONLY tweak numbers pre-3.1.
As with previous threads on the balance issue, keep the discussion down to pinpointing the cruical parts which turns the table for the marines or aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why I suggested changing the adrenaline bonus down to around 10% like it used to be, and adding in a % chance to knockdown/knockback with doing 0 damage.
I'm sure those wouldn't have to be put in client side, and would help the marines when sieging against infinite adrenaline gorges.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jun 14 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jun 14 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> since this is in the competitive forum I'll assume everyone can hit a cele fade reasonably well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> nope, no-one can hit them reasonably well
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 15 2005, 07:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 15 2005, 07:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it would help mid game balance a lot to not lose the AA when the armory dies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is a bad idea. what do you do when there is more than one armory in play? do you make them like arms labs? NO. that means if you upgrade one then all you have to do is drop an armory anywhere on the map and it's insta-hmgs. i'll pass.
*edit* and please no one reply with "well just allow one at a time" because if the base armory died or got recycled you could easily "relocate" your AA anywhere on the map and we all know that would be a disaster for aliens
i dont think the problem lies within the aa <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Please don't struggle so hard with finding solutions. The solutions are usually the easiest part of the equation, but we need to know how the game behaves first.
If you're not sure yet because you haven't played 3.0.4 enough, that's also a very valid reply.
Comments
I doubt anyone wants every one of those advantages to be removed. The numbers merely serve to emphasize the unparalleled effect the second hive has on the game.
The second hive simply offers too many advantages for a single tech, particularly considering its vulnerability. If the marines make a mistake and the second hive goes up, its benefits overpower them. If, on the other hand, the aliens mess up and lose the second hive before it completes, they receive none of its benefits for at least another 3 minutes, during which time they must face advanced marine tech with only mid-tier tech. The game depends too much on this one structure; the odds very quickly stack against the team that loses it.
PG + TF + upgrade + 3 sieges
That's what? 60 res or so? There is no way they should counter each other.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely irrelevant. The marines are paying for the luxury of killing a hive from outside the hive. Wallhax should cost.
Example of why res isnt everything:
3 HMGs (even L0) > 1 fade. Correct? But the fade costs more than 3 HMGs, so shouldn't he be stronger?
No.
To be more accurate, you need more than 2 gorges to -COUNTER- the siege. 2 gorges, 2 fades, an onos or 2 if they are a heavy train perhaps? You're looking at anywhere from 125-200 res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is also important to recognize is that 1 alien resource point does not equal 1 marine respoint.
Its essential to the marines to pressure the nodes of the aliens ASAP to break their economy. If their economy is broken, fades can be delayed to about 6:00, assuming the alien team survives.
I've observed that the extra ammo and the little bit of armor (I know its not new, but equally as important) does help a lot. Even though armor 1 is usually the upgrade of choice, sometimes marines do fight skulks without getting parasited. The little buffs do help, but as stated earlier the balance revolves around when aliens get fades, for the most part, and whether or not the marines can counter them with effective upgrades, weapons and tactics.
Just a casual observation from a former competitive player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a lot of truth in that FW.
However your fades are really important because they suceed or fail in defending the second building hive. Thats the real balance of power, fade skill is just a big variable in whether or not the hive happens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are absolutely correct, I neglected to put that in. Unless the second hive can be killed before the marine resources towers are destroyed, OR before the second set of upgrade chambers goes up (ESPECIALLY Sensory), then the marines chances of winning are about that of getting a ninja phase and all out shotgun rushing.
I hate to say it but I think movement chambers are too strong at hive 1 now. Not that they weren't always awesome at hive 1, I mean obs has been using them for quite some time now to beat teams a lot better then us, but with innate regen there is no reason for fades to need dc upgrades at hive 1. Instant teleporting to building hive plus silence and celerity skulks for free it greatly improves the alien early game which allows that second hive to go up.
Then of course once that second hive is up teams have the choice of defense chambers or sensories, but really with meta and innate your fades still don't really need regen at all so most teams go with scs for the most overpowered upgrade in the game. Add in leaping focus silent skulks and you are in for a good time as marines unless you have proto tech ready. Of course focus skulks, lerks, and fades vs jetpackers, or sof celerity onos vs heavies is kind of an unfair matchup.
I really don't know how this could be fixed and I really don't want to see movements get nerfed but there is a substantial problem there. Personally I think that the game should move in a direction away from dependance on the number of hives and focus on speed and skill where the better team won't be penalized because they made a small mistake, or let a hive go up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another thing that boosts the movement chambers is the adrenaline boost (I believe 25%?) that the aliens get around ONE movement chamber, ESPECIALLY when siege does not damage aliens anymoire. This is not only beneficial to gorges healing the hive (as they can have infinite adrenaline near the movement chambers, with the adrenaline upgrade) it also helps fades and most importantly, lerks.
Lerks can really exploit (note LEGALLY) the celerity upgrade when the defending the hive with movement chambers. They can fly out, spore and/or umbra, fly back, and quicker then it takes to heal have their whole energy meter back for another volley of spores and umbra.
This forces the marines to get welders which at 5 resources a peice can add up. in a 6v6 format to outfit everyone in the field with welders would cost 25 res. My math maybe wrong but I believe its 10 res for a turret factory, and 15 to upgrade to siege? That seems like a significant thing about the game to be concerned about.
My suggestion(s) (though I know it will be ignored) is to lower the energy bonus from 25% per chamber to around maybe 5 or 10%. Or force sieges to not damage aliens, but maybe force knockback (relatively small percentage) so that way the gorge healing on top of the hive is vulnerable to being knocked off. It would force the alien team to be concerned about that gorge AND the hive, rather than just the hive.
Another suggestion would have welders be a researchable upgrade, say around 40 resources, so that whenever a person spawns they can spawn with a welder.
The first two suggestions seem reasonable, either one or the other or both, to give marines a better shot when the second hive is up.
It would be a wise investment, but not always. I like that upgrade.
I would make it so you can still pay for individual welders, but have the welder upgrade replace handgrenades.
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Well you have to take into consideration what you are getting.
40 res=8 welders, if you have marines die more than 8 times at time of research, then its already paid for.
Also as a comm you wouldn't have to worry about forgetting to drop them when under pressure.
and as stated earlier, the resources could be tweaked, so there is no logic in debating that.
If you are going to criticize the idea, criticize the idea itsself, not a tweakable number.
Here are a few solutions with my reasoning behind them:
- Remove RFK... both teams. At least then early game situations won't be only 5ish minutes. The game wouldn't be 100% focused on that 2nd hive and keeping it down/up. Res towers are important once more.
- Gorge evolution cost lowered. This is to not only extend the time before the 2nd hive/fade is able to be built (less starting res) but to assist alien early game rebuilding (since the focus of the game is hopefully less about hives and more about resources). It shouldn't be more then 5... I'd just make it free like the skulk to make battle gorging something the alien team can do without sucking their RT/hive/fade res dry.
- Make the first skulk upgrade free, after the 2nd hive if the alien wants a upgrade from another chamber it'll cost 1 res. At the 3rd hive... the third and final chamber upgrade would be 2.
- Up skulk walking speed. Its hard to make something quick in a game like HL without people turning that speed into WTHcrackskulksonicboom speed through bunnyhoping. Perhaps the walking speed shouldn't be increased... but WALLSPEED (if thats even possible). I'd like more emphasis put on the skulks wall climb and less on "RUSH THE MARINES". Bunnyhoppers feel they are "skilled" because they can jump around really fast... but the way they use it seems so void of stratigy.
- Ambushing isn't viable Post-MT without sitting for long periods of time (instant death for an alien team BTW... a member being inactive for any amount of time). So i believe aliens going at a walk speed shouldn't show up on MT. It allows for skulks to move into positions for ambushing WHILE the marines are moving about the map.
- Perhaps adding a long wished for wall jump off the wall/roof should be added for increased agility/evasion for wall-running skulks
What this would (hopefully) do is put less focus on fades and hives and put it back in early game type fighting. Isn't that honestly where most of the fun is in NS_ ? I hate seeing game after game of the losing team F4ing after the 8 minute mark.
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mt is basicly a wall hack and doesnt cost 40 res, 40 would be too much (depending on the research time).
personally id say 30 res and 40 seconds. not always will marines actually use the welders remember, and its useless for lone marines.
about the mc's giving the adren boost.. often enough sieges will take out the mc's while they are hitting the hive unless the gorge knows where to place them properly (very rare).
personally i think celerity is still overpowering. It makes the higher lifeforms so strong as they can just soak up bullets, it really does need to have its speed increase % lowered a bit. just to stop cele lerks and fades being soo dominant.
sieges are very powerful now but thats ok, just a ***** when against HA with sieges in a high res game.
Early game is still just about balanced and was never really off imho. Cant really give reasons, it was just working for both sides equally.
the gestate time has made like, no difference at all, aliens spend more than 1 second camping to ambush so increasing the time it takes for them to get an upgrade by 1 second was pretty pointless.
not had enough experience with the newest patch to comment on the research time changes.
and as stated earlier, the resources could be tweaked, so there is no logic in debating that.
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the idea is fairly good [although you should know its already been suggested], but the problem is welders still leave you fairly open to attack when using them, perhaps 20 res or so and a longer reseach time, say on the armslab so it slows down weapon/armor upgrades when researched.
1 fade = 3 sg lvl 2 marines
2 fades = 6 sg lvl 3 marines
3 fades > marine team
4 fades > all
but now we've simply nerf sticked the skulks with the extra 5 AP which, in all seriousness, doesn't affect fade balance
I say REDUCE skulk DAMAGE and INCREASE it's SPEED
Then, INCREASE fade DAMAGE and DECREASE it's RATE OF FIRE, to make it more pure hit and run
Increase lerk speed in general
To compensate
Increase LMG clipsize?
Increase LMG per bullet damage?
Increase Knife damage?
Increase LA speed when only holding a knife (c'mon... I can run faster carrying a 40 pound backpack, a binder, my laptop, and a lunch box)
Now do you mean carapice? because celerity doesn't let you absorb more bullets... it lets you get away from the marines and back to the hive for healing faster. On pub marines it does make them miss a bit more... but since this is in the competitive forum I'll assume everyone can hit a cele fade reasonably well.
Your structures didn't drop in half a second yet aliens needed to be careful around the seiges. I thought it was a lot more fun, and seiges back in the day could work on 2 hive aliens.
But the new sieges can work, anyways.
A very valid point.
Also, ease down on the suggestions guys. There's a lot you will NOT see in a server-side patch, and we'll attempt to stay away from any code changes. That means, with the exception of a possible hit detection fix, that we will ONLY tweak numbers pre-3.1.
As with previous threads on the balance issue, keep the discussion down to pinpointing the cruical parts which turns the table for the marines or aliens.
Now do you mean carapice? because celerity doesn't let you absorb more bullets... it lets you get away from the marines and back to the hive for healing faster. On pub marines it does make them miss a bit more... but since this is in the competitive forum I'll assume everyone can hit a cele fade reasonably well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope i mean celerity. cele fades and lerks are harder to hit and will take more bullets to kill no matter how good your aim is, im pretty sure the hitbox prediction isnt as accurate either. combine this with the increased mobility that mc brings you and dc doesnt, also the fact you can reach your target more quickly (less time for people to shoot at you before you're in their face killing them) than other chambers.
I heard Zunni say somewhere that welder upgrades would be too powerful. I must say that I dissagree. 8 welders = 40 res. What comm here can say that they often drop so much more than 8 welders in the course of a game. As is, I drop one with every gun, so each shotgunner/hmg'er has one. I think that it would be a marine buff, but its not out of control at all.
Fix marine armor, its just tweakable numbers isn't it?
I'm sure they can do that with a server-side update, too.
A very valid point.
Also, ease down on the suggestions guys. There's a lot you will NOT see in a server-side patch, and we'll attempt to stay away from any code changes. That means, with the exception of a possible hit detection fix, that we will ONLY tweak numbers pre-3.1.
As with previous threads on the balance issue, keep the discussion down to pinpointing the cruical parts which turns the table for the marines or aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why I suggested changing the adrenaline bonus down to around 10% like it used to be, and adding in a % chance to knockdown/knockback with doing 0 damage.
I'm sure those wouldn't have to be put in client side, and would help the marines when sieging against infinite adrenaline gorges.
nope, no-one can hit them reasonably well
this is a bad idea. what do you do when there is more than one armory in play? do you make them like arms labs? NO. that means if you upgrade one then all you have to do is drop an armory anywhere on the map and it's insta-hmgs. i'll pass.
*edit* and please no one reply with "well just allow one at a time" because if the base armory died or got recycled you could easily "relocate" your AA anywhere on the map and we all know that would be a disaster for aliens
If you're not sure yet because you haven't played 3.0.4 enough, that's also a very valid reply.