A Question To The Customization Staff:
Lt_Gravity
Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Members
Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Members
<div class="IPBDescription">why not try some custom NS worldmodels?</div> when I worked on my map ns_source (not related to ns:source, dont even dare to ask because this topic pisses me off) I created 5 models to be used in the map. I designed and worked the 3D models out to increase the atmosphere within the map. custom world models allways make maps more interesting, you know? and you have to create your own because of the low number of usable models that had been finished to be used within maps.
however, three of this 5 models had been skinned in no time, about 2 weeks. they werent much of a challlenge though. but the other 2 models, namely the dropship and the mining vehicle, the most important(!!!) models for this map got skinned... and I couldnt get a final skin in time. shure, its all my fault since Im mapper and modeller but I suck in skinning.
I asked myself why most of you guys only have fun working on weapons? I just want to understand it.
converting or modelling after reference is not much of a challenge in my eyes. shure, some people just need their m4 in every game they play but its not much of creative work. some people dont need a challenge though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it cant be because you guys think “the weapon will more likely be used so its more paying to work on a gun.” because I dont think there are many custommodels PERMANENTELY used by players.
what really makes a difference are custom worldmodels that can be used in maps. neither a custom made USP or M16 will have ANY chance to be part of the game, ergo seen by MOST players. so if you are aiming to get yourself a name, helping those poor custom mappers out to
create a believeable, “realistic” (in scifi terms) environment, many people would be grateful for that. and you will have changed ns in a way you never would have imagined!
just give it a try. maybe you can inspire some people. and maybe you can remove this little gap that seems to exist in between the mapping and the customization sections. I also do have some ideas for models but its senseless in any way when there is no way to make shure it will be decently skinned.
***
at the end I wrote this just because there are tons of “[wip] weapon xxx” , barely custom player models (I would love to see more) and none map model in the past months. its up to you to change it. or not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
however, three of this 5 models had been skinned in no time, about 2 weeks. they werent much of a challlenge though. but the other 2 models, namely the dropship and the mining vehicle, the most important(!!!) models for this map got skinned... and I couldnt get a final skin in time. shure, its all my fault since Im mapper and modeller but I suck in skinning.
I asked myself why most of you guys only have fun working on weapons? I just want to understand it.
converting or modelling after reference is not much of a challenge in my eyes. shure, some people just need their m4 in every game they play but its not much of creative work. some people dont need a challenge though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it cant be because you guys think “the weapon will more likely be used so its more paying to work on a gun.” because I dont think there are many custommodels PERMANENTELY used by players.
what really makes a difference are custom worldmodels that can be used in maps. neither a custom made USP or M16 will have ANY chance to be part of the game, ergo seen by MOST players. so if you are aiming to get yourself a name, helping those poor custom mappers out to
create a believeable, “realistic” (in scifi terms) environment, many people would be grateful for that. and you will have changed ns in a way you never would have imagined!
just give it a try. maybe you can inspire some people. and maybe you can remove this little gap that seems to exist in between the mapping and the customization sections. I also do have some ideas for models but its senseless in any way when there is no way to make shure it will be decently skinned.
***
at the end I wrote this just because there are tons of “[wip] weapon xxx” , barely custom player models (I would love to see more) and none map model in the past months. its up to you to change it. or not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
But from what my insominactic mind read was that you think there is no reason for mappers and custom models to be seperaated cause they r one in hte same in the sense of you thinkning of it that way. Also, that you think there should be more variety of models instead of pistol that lmg this. Aswell, you assume as do i, that people will not use a custom model forevver but a custom model in a map would stay there, but then again the map will not be used forever. And, hmmph. Ohh, there is only so much talent people have, and also there is only so much time people have, differing according to lifestyle.
You see, we are but a medium size community in my eyes. with that said we lill people with th elil talents we have do what we can and want, and if it satifies one person thats enough.
RAWR, lets just turn everyone in the community of the ns forums not just the custom ns forums but the whole shitincaboble(not sure how to say or spell that), and we can teach them all we know to be the best at everything with the programs that we all have cause we all know they cost only 0 cents, not.
eek sorry im not really sure what i just said but im hitting submit in a second
anyway,try useing player models (posed by you,frozen,made a different model) as "guides" in an underground store room or something,put a sign in there hands like "<----- processing" and stuff.Would really be great to see in a map.
in terms of just regular stuff in a map,alot of it can be found in places you don't realize.Entities add alot to a game,simple stuff likes doors,and stuff like controllable arms,try to add more entities to a game,not more useless models.
@ chubichan: I actually know whats possible in maps, what looks good and what the entity limits are.
models add a lot more detail to any map than the best mapper in the world could ever achieve by putting architecture in his map. besides that: huge amount of entities - nono!
besides that putting one hundred different models into a single map is nonsense. especially like you discribed it. maybe the server wont lag because of the point based netities... but YOU will!!!
so you think its a bad idea to ask why there are only few worldmodels?
@ wnn: I dont think you choose your words wisely. because I now gonna spam you with world models <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it is just a question why most people dont even think about it. to create the same guns over and over again is like there were eclipse style maps in the mapping forums only. ergo: boring as hell <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ill try my hardest to get them done
I cant garantee a good model becuase i done usally do the world models but sure ill do them.
Go ahead, I'm waiting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
more custom map models are made by request from some mappers to modelers... this is an in-effeciant way of getting them done, but it will get the model done eventually... the mapping model drive was pretty nifty while it lasted though....
I'd also be willing to make some map models.
I notice models that are there for a reason,not just to make it look good.To me,the enemy comes first.I won't notice a Über laser compressor thingy unless I can use the laser to kill the skulk...I'll only notice the skulk,and maybe the laser thingy if he climbs on it.Otherwise,I'll notice him,and the "Press to smash skulk by lasery thingy" button to my left.
I say function over form...give me doors galore,I'll take that map over the great looking nearly bump mapped cave map that makes all mappers everywhere shed a tear.
Every now and then I try to make a player model, but i don't have the patience or the modelling skill to make anything decent. There is also a lack of concepts for world models and player models, when people are faced with 10000+ weapon concepts and maybe up to 50 world/player concepts which are mostly just from the art forum and not designed to be modelled off its easy to see why they end up modelling a weapon.
Afaik the only serious alien player models are: the arachnid, zergling, and alien runner. It'd be great to get some good player/world model concepts to attract modellers interest.
I notice models that are there for a reason,not just to make it look good.To me,the enemy comes first.I won't notice a Über laser compressor thingy unless I can use the laser to kill the skulk...I'll only notice the skulk,and maybe the laser thingy if he climbs on it.Otherwise,I'll notice him,and the "Press to smash skulk by lasery thingy" button to my left.
I say function over form...give me doors galore,I'll take that map over the great looking nearly bump mapped cave map that makes all mappers everywhere shed a tear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what siege/"fun"-maps are made for. you dont even have to care about lighting, neither about complex architecture where enemies could hide.
I started mapping back in 1998 when hl1 came out (yes, I feel kinda old) and my goal had been to create AMAZING looking maps, not some boring, cold areas that serve the gameplay purpose 100%.
adding details to maps, no matter if its architectural or with the help of a model, increaes the atmosphere. increasing atmosphere means increasing the fun, at least to me. I know that there are enough people out there NOT agreeing with me. butthe believeabe, nicely done maps had been one of the causes why I kept playing ns.
I think you agree that this area looks pretty good:
<img src='http://mitglied.lycos.de/centercross/ns_source/b34_rr1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
and its the model that does the differecen (except it could be better skinned)
@ dr fuzzy: the life is about trying. imagine some people would never have tried to develop linux <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
its sad but its the way it is. and the cause for all this is the "need" for this kind of maps. some people just dont want to accept new maps with new tactics. but this is another topic that doesnt belong in the customization area.
so the problem of the few worldmodel "output" are the concepts, right?
I dont think that will be a problem. now I know that I can work on isome concepts <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
but in my case there wont be much modelling to do. naturally I do the concept and the modelling all by myself and I even have someone to mesh the model. like I said, all thats needed is the skin then.
I'm not saying no models at all,I'm saying more useful models and stuff in a map.Not less regular models.
ok,try to go through the room again,with a jetpack,HMG,and a rageing xeno ready skulk on steroids chaseing you,your gonna be dashing for the door,not looking around going "wow,that looks pretty neat!"
to me,a complex model can just get in the way,the more complex means the more problems a model could have,bad hit boxes,stretched textures,too many polies thus createing lag.
And also,alot of seige maps are dull,they feature only 1 white texture most of the time,and to me,a damn fine texture is worth a model that looks like it came from the people who made FF:spirits within.Try better textures,not better models <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What Grav wants to say the layout is as important as the looking of the map and iwth custom worldmodels u can get maps look better, and instead of modeling the 1231124 m4 u could just model like the dropship grav waited for a long time.
btw. the room is not enterable
also,alot more people are better at modeling guns and weapons then actual space craft,or otherwise.As alot of modelers here will tell you,without a concept sketch at least,the model is neigh impossible to get right.Mainly because you have nothing but a description to go on.
I know it's an engine based thing,but something the NS team could think of doing is doing what the team who made pandora tomorrow (or the newest splintercell for PS2) did.Use "geo-textureing" which basically means running 3d info through the textureing pipeline.This would make it so that people could make ALOT more detailed maps.And considering the PS2 can run the HL1 engine,it's logical to say that anything that can be done on the PS2,can be done in the HL1 engine,short of FMV's naturally...FYI,the ps2 can do bump mapping.
I'm not saying no models at all,I'm saying more useful models and stuff in a map.Not less regular models.
ok,try to go through the room again,with a jetpack,HMG,and a rageing xeno ready skulk on steroids chaseing you,your gonna be dashing for the door,not looking around going "wow,that looks pretty neat!"
to me,a complex model can just get in the way,the more complex means the more problems a model could have,bad hit boxes,stretched textures,too many polies thus createing lag.
And also,alot of seige maps are dull,they feature only 1 white texture most of the time,and to me,a damn fine texture is worth a model that looks like it came from the people who made FF:spirits within.Try better textures,not better models <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this room is not accessable for a purpose.
more exactly: its the part of the readyroom where you can take a look. some people call it "atmosphere". although some people would like to kill me: everyone who ztries to enter the room, joins a random team <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> (some players dont even read signs in the rr).
the clipping of these models is a big problem. thats why I separated the models from the rest of the map so you dont get in contact with them. its not that I dont have a clue about mapping. its not that I dont have a clue how ns works <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
all models on ns_source had been done WITHOUT REFERENCE. Im not very talented in doing things without reference but the models serve their purpose: you get something to look at, something new, something fresh. and thats what future maps should have, not the 08/15 environment we see around every corner.
but thats why the mapping community needs some help. instead of thinking about how a mac10 looks in 3d and how to arange the bones anyone could have thought about a set of tsa vehicles and equipment EVERYONE could use in his map. you would take the continuity in ns maps to a new level. I also believe some awesome models would force some people to improve their looks on the map.
there would only be winners in this "game".
I will get this concept thing running this week. we will see what we get then. btw: I would appreciate any help on the final skins for the ns_source dropship and the mining vehicle. some work has been done but the skins dont reflect the work spend on the map in any way so Im not too satisfied with them.
It would be awesome if you guys would get into the swing of building map models more often, because as NS reaches it's source build, source maps will look to use ALOT of world models (because HL2 handles them really really well).
[edit] I think the main issue is instant feedback...
hm.
havent thought about that. could be true. but for me:
ok looking model = could be added to a map
good looking model = has to be used in a map
cool looking model = lets create a map around it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you create it as the center point of the map,as any good commander knows,the middle large room of the map is always the hardest to hold,and also alot of times it only serves the purpose of being a room avoided because noone heads straight for the enemy hive,they always sneak through the sides or JP through the vents.So,the model is completely avoided.
and yeah,I think we should start on source world models because then they can actually serve nice purpose,I've had many a time when a grenade in CSS has killed then enemy because a barrel smashed into them.And even so,since NS:Source is set in the future,we might be able to get away with being able to do stuff like have out own version of the gravity gun.Or better yet,heavy's can now lift heavy arse stuff and throw 'em at skulks and stuff.
and I was just useing the room as an example...I don't know about NS_source the map...
and as I've said,a heavy positioned as if he's holding a sign in 1 hand and a finger pointing to the left with a sign in his hand that reads something like:<------- Main Boiler Room is a use for a player model that would have normally only been used for players themselves,is now a great and useful map model...
<img src='http://www.blackmage.org/kaine/pmu.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.blackmage.org/kaine/rotswitch.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
yer.
more coming.
<img src='http://www.blackmage.org/kaine/pmu.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.blackmage.org/kaine/rotswitch.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
yer.
more coming. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
skin it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
my original idea was to get some high detail models ingame but this models with medium polycount seem like they make sense. you could possibly use them on every single map no matter what the style is. nicely done. but please: put a decent border around the edges of the fan housing.
i suck at skinning, but i'm learning to mesh, so we'll see.
you have a point.
but imagine how people may think when they
a. LOVE custom maps badly
b. do have a custom map server running with potential ns maps
c. ARE mappers themselves
answer: they love anybody helping them to create a more believeable environment, an intersting new environment. and they dont mind adding 20 names of people helping them to the credits <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fixed
Mappers tend to work on constantly improvong their style and trying new things.
Modellers tend to make weapons (****-easy imo because they have a ton of blueprints, diagrams and pics to work off/copy). The most creative weapon modellers get is fusing the barrel of this gun with the butt of this one. I wish modellers were more ambitious tbh.
I saw someone on these forums (Chrono?) make a whole ton of pipes and stuff, but he got carried away and made them about 1bn on the tricount reading!
Player Modellers have my deep respect.
---
To be a bit fairer to the Modelling community, it is much harder to get a project finished because it depends on too much collaboration. Modeller -> UV-Mapper -> Skinner. Whereas some mapper make custom textures but most can just DL them if they need 'em.
It takes a lot of dedication to get good at all four disciplines. I don't know of <i>anyone</i> here in the NS community who is good at all four things. I know some people who are good at three of them, but not all four. So then, while a map can be done by one person over time, a good model generally requires two or three people.
And you're right, Crispy. Player modellers also have my deep respect. More so, though, are the player model animators. That **** is tough.
Another thing while I'm thinking about it - plenty of modellers have made map models, but they never get skinned because nobody knows what kind of map they will be used in, and what the theme of the map will be. If the model is skinned first, that severly limits the scope of maps it can be used in. Also, there's no central repository of skinned or unskinned map models, so mappers wouldn't even know where to look, or how to get someone to skin the model once they found one they liked.
Mappers tend to work on constantly improvong their style and trying new things.
Modellers tend to make weapons (****-easy imo because they have a ton of blueprints, diagrams and pics to work off/copy). The most creative weapon modellers get is fusing the barrel of this gun with the butt of this one. I wish modellers were more ambitious tbh.
I saw someone on these forums (Chrono?) make a whole ton of pipes and stuff, but he got carried away and made them about 1bn on the tricount reading!
Player Modellers have my deep respect.
---
To be a bit fairer to the Modelling community, it is much harder to get a project finished because it depends on too much collaboration. Modeller -> UV-Mapper -> Skinner. Whereas some mapper make custom textures but most can just DL them if they need 'em. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
:rolleyes: I resent the first part of that.
"Modeller -> UV-Mapper -> Skinner."
Modellers should know how to UVW map, and if they don't they should learn, it's not something they should expect to be able to pass off. Then again skinners should know this task too, so they can fix up a map if it's fudged.
The reason map models aren't made is because there isn't a large demand for them. You see more people complaining about a new shotgun then about a map model done. Not to mention how many custom maps are worth playing? Not many, so why would modellers want to waste their time making custom models for something that won't be used, or properly at least. Besides I've seen people make some models per request, and it should stay that way. If a mapper wants X model they can ask for it, otherwise they can expect to just brush it in hammer.