I wouldn't say I'm being an ****, but he stated that one can not measure the brains activity involved while in deep meditative states.
Nearly all of the eastern monks have demostarted that their brain waves DO function differently when they are controlling their body temperature (to a certain extent) along with the other mental ablities they have.
Which is why even with all the sensors those who actually know what they are doing, or are able to actually do something will do it reguardless of sensors around them.
Calling it stress when there is no time limit (according to that website) is just an excuse.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 17 2005, 03:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 17 2005, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wouldn't say I'm being an ****, but he stated that one can not measure the brains activity involved while in deep meditative states.
Nearly all of the eastern monks have demostarted that their brain waves DO function differently when they are controlling their body temperature (to a certain extent) along with the other mental ablities they have.
Which is why even with all the sensors those who actually know what they are doing, or are able to actually do something will do it reguardless of sensors around them.
Calling it stress when there is no time limit (according to that website) is just an excuse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> isn´t natural that they are different from what they normally are if they do things that are out of the norm?
Shizophrenics and other mentally disordered have different brainwave patterns than normal, people, too, but still i wont say they have some special powers.
That is why if he can do what he says, reguardless of various sensors it should be provable, yet no one has been able to demostrate their "powers" successfully, because they do not have them.
Deluding oneself (longer) only hampers your ability to eventually mature and realize how silly you were, when you were longer. He (bullethead, no offense meant) is nearing adult hood, when he hits 18, suddenly he can make all the decisions himself and is just as liable for the consequences, which isn't the case at the moment.
I'm sorry but astral pojection and like "powers" are nothing more then fancy mind created "holo-deck" like experiences. Which when holo-decks are invented I will have a hay day, because it will be the ultimate immersive game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crotalus+Jul 17 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crotalus @ Jul 17 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]don't assume he is saying he is a telepathic.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But he said exactly that. He also said he wasn't very good at it, but he said it. He even used the word "telepathicly" [sic].
As for brainwaves, I still maintain that if you can emit brainwaves powerful enough that they can be picked up by other brains, they can be picked up by an EEG as well. And if you can make that brain pick those brainwaves up without any physical contact, you should be able to make the EEG react without being hooked up to it. I would take that feat alone as circumstancial evidence that telepathy is possible.
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Jul 17 2005, 10:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Jul 17 2005, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Crotalus+Jul 17 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crotalus @ Jul 17 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]don't assume he is saying he is a telepathic.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But he said exactly that. He also said he wasn't very good at it, but he said it. He even used the word "telepathicly" [sic].
As for brainwaves, I still maintain that if you can emit brainwaves powerful enough that they can be picked up by other brains, they can be picked up by an EEG as well. And if you can make that brain pick those brainwaves up without any physical contact, you should be able to make the EEG react without being hooked up to it. I would take that feat alone as circumstancial evidence that telepathy is possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the best thing I can compare it to. It's ... not telepathy. I can't just "communicate" real time using thought projection. Just snipets... I seriously don't know how to explain it. It's almost a feeling... but with words behind it.
Cyndane, this isn't just some fantasy. It was something I'd actually been ignoring for a while. It's like... you know how you KNOW when someone is staring at you? And you turn around and sure enough, there they are? It's much the same thing... but this has been happening for a long time. It's like... I'd know when someone wanted to talk to me before I could even talk to them... I would get a headache and not know why... then later on I'd talk to the person (most of the time my g/f or my best friend Dan when one of them were really upset) and I'd know they were upset even before I could meet them. Finally I met someone I hadn't seen in a while... and we started talking... and she went into the elementals. She's a mixture belief you could say. Kinda Christian, kinda Pagan, kinda something she came up with. ANd listening to her, it all started to make sense. the Headache... these... feelings. And when she mentioned certain things, I was able to finish her sentences before she could... from there she explained to me her beliefes in the Crystal, or the last few parts of humanity that can still salvage this wreck of a world.
I don't know how to explain who a Crystal is... finding out that we're slightly beyond human was a bit of a shock, and still is. But it makes sense... our generation HAS to do something, or we'll wind up turning ourselves into glowing green radioactive dust. Perhaps we are slowly gaining what is needed to survive... maybe it's Divine intervention... maybe we're all just plain nuts but are thinking the EXACT same way and it's one HUGE coincidence... i don't know. But I do know we will, in time, be the ones in control of this planet... and be the ones to hopefully salvage it. It's fate is grim... anyone can see that. Polution, war, violence, hate... what happened to kindness... logic... peace? Yes, sometimes the only way to restore peace IS to wage war... but that doesn't always work... so we must go beyond...
I know it sounds crazy... and I don't expect anyone to really believe it. But you have to admit, it's a bit too big to be a coincidence... and it's too far fetched to be a made up story. It isn't just the ramblings of some crazy person... this is something I truely believe in! And I only ask that you accept me even with this... well... whatever it is... as an active member of society. After all, I look the same as anyone else, and act the same... just I'm a bit more philosophical at times... and I ramble alot... but eh, that's my case and you've heard what I believe is true. Take it or leave it, your choice. I can't dive into your mind and force you to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, I choose not to believe it. It's too unlikely and far-fetched to just take at face value. But I'm not going to dictate your life for you, so best of luck with it all. Just remember, if the money issue comes up, bail out before it's too late.
Heh, money is the bane of all evil in my opinion. Having enough money even makes you nearly invincible from the law... *cough* Martha stewart *cough* *cough cough* Bill Gates *cough sneeze*
I'm not sure Bill Gates fits with the invincible from the law as he has yet to break one... himself.
I really hate to break this to you bullethead, but if you can do even a little bit of what you say you can, I seriously go suggest you prove it so that we can herald in a new age of learning about our brains, as that would totally revoluntionize mental studies completely.
If not, you are deluding yourself, and I feel more sorry for you then anything else.
Ehh, maybe he is one of those people that pick up subtle body hints, like that horse. There was once a popular horse that could count. He would tap his hooves the correct number of times every single time. Some skeptics proved that the horse wasn't actually counting, he was merely tapping his hooves until he saw the sign to stop tapping and arrive at the correct number.
So the skeptics were like HA! your telling the horse when to stop counting! But, in a astonishing move, the owner invited an audience member to go and ask the horse questions, which turned out right every single time too. Eventually it was found that the horse was taking signs, but not from the owner. The horse was sniffing for the smell of sweat, the huff of relief, and the slight shuffle generated by the audience as the correct number of hoove beats were tapped out.
Now, there are some people out there that have become EXTREMELY skilled at picking up these body cues, they are as good as a professional magician, except there are no "tricks" involved. The guy i'm talking about was on the news once, I don't remember his name. But he had the same kinda "telepathic-thingy" as you Bullethead.
There are only 2 people I can "talk" to, and that's vague...
my g/f and my "guide" or "mentor" as I call her.
my g/f is for... obvious... reasons... that we shan't go into on these forums
My mentor... I don't know. It's just like we think so very much alike we KNOW what the other is going to say... and even after hours of talking, I realize we aren't TALKING anymore... but I still know what she is saying. I can't really conciously emit it as well as I can just *wham* have it hit me. But if I'm constantly talking to someone, for an hour or so, especially over the internet in a webcam + mic convo... I'll find myself "zoning'" out... and though I'll hear my replys, they won't. But she will.
I thinkt hat's how she knew I was like her... but I don't know. She refuses to tell me why she decided to teach me what she believes. Maybe it is just picking up body language. Who can really say... after all, 3d sight is a trick of the mind played by having 2 points of vision offset by a slight angle, which is then interpreted by the brain and sent as a single, coherant image. Who's to say what I do isn't If it's more, whee! More power to me! If not. *shrug* nothin lost. Just I know how to defuse an argument or how to hold ones attention better with subtle bodily hints <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Right now, my body is telling me to go shower <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Crotalus+Jul 8 2005, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crotalus @ Jul 8 2005, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry if I didn't explain myself enough, but what I am saying is that the methods they propose for accessing the "astral" realm works, but I'm pretty convinced it isn't the astral realm, and it is just some sort of mind trick...but that doesn't explain why your mind generates such a strong sensation, and why people get this kind of "out-of-body" experience and "religious fervor" there are some pretty strange accounts, and I would like to see what other people think about why people get these sensations...
I have tried it once, it works. I was kinda half-sleeping, to the point where you are awake, but you've lost contact with your body. (A certain chemical, it prevents you from sleepwalking) So I uh.....flew out of my body?? I don't know how to explain it, but it feels so real...anyway, it felt like I had more senses beyond the normal 5, there were other...."sensations" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What you have described is most likely a reaction by your brain to a perceived threat to it's safety. You were falling asleep too fast. Sometimes people feel a sudden falling feeling; othertimes it is something completely unexpected like an object hitting them. In any event it tends to jolt the person awake with a fun amount of sudden adrenaline. It can happen while you are sleeping too!
You experience multiple levels of high and low conciousness when you are sleeping. If you dip too low it can shock you straight out of your deep sleep. You will know this happened because when you awaken you will be very confused. You might not even know where you are at. Do some research on conciousness states while sleeping...stay AWAY from those quasi-spiritual quasi-scientific sites. They contain junk. You are not leaving your body no matter how convincing it may feel. You ARE your body!
The human body is amazing and fun to learn about. I guess it isn't for everybody. There is so much to learn and so much we do not know. Stick to the science journals though; not those mystic sites. It is my experience that most people who assert that these experiences are supernatural are doing so out of their own will rather than rational, scientific observation.
Are you people listening to me? I said the methods proposed for accessing the Astral Realm works! It's fun to screw your brain over disconnecting it from it's five sensors and let the rational part create a "dream." The dream acts as a filler for your missing five senses, thus creating a "dream" that feels just like real life! omg pwnzor!!1!!!!!1 I never said I believed in having my soul flying around...
And Nadagast, go away if your post is going to have nothing to contribute to the discussion. You don't seem to be able to consider anyone else's view with respect and just debunk everyone else's opinion you dislike...please stop that
Yeah I'm one of those pesky bastards who asks for proof when you claim amazing things.
I dislike their beliefs? They aren't beliefs. They are claims. And I don't dislike them. I'd love to be able to communicate telepathically, but I won't believe it's possible until I see some <b>evidence</b> for it. I'm against people claiming to do miraculous things then backing out when you ask them to <b><u><i>do what they say they can do</b></u></i>. I'm a real ****.
Edit: I mean really, have we gotten so politically correct as a society that we can't even challenge someone when they make a claim? Are we just supposed to accept whatever people say, for fear of offending their belief system?
<!--QuoteBegin-Derrick+Jul 18 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Derrick @ Jul 18 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What you have described is most likely a reaction by your brain to a perceived threat to it's safety. You were falling asleep too fast. Sometimes people feel a sudden falling feeling; othertimes it is something completely unexpected like an object hitting them. In any event it tends to jolt the person awake with a fun amount of sudden adrenaline. It can happen while you are sleeping too!
You experience multiple levels of high and low conciousness when you are sleeping. If you dip too low it can shock you straight out of your deep sleep. You will know this happened because when you awaken you will be very confused. You might not even know where you are at. Do some research on conciousness states while sleeping...stay AWAY from those quasi-spiritual quasi-scientific sites. They contain junk. You are not leaving your body no matter how convincing it may feel. You ARE your body!
The human body is amazing and fun to learn about. I guess it isn't for everybody. There is so much to learn and so much we do not know. Stick to the science journals though; not those mystic sites. It is my experience that most people who assert that these experiences are supernatural are doing so out of their own will rather than rational, scientific observation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice first post, and I agree fully. Welcome to the discussion forums.
This reminds me of sleep paralysis in that people used to think it was an evil spirit/witch/whatever pressing down on them when they slept. Needless to say, that's not the reason it happens.
If you want the truth, the scientific approach is probably the best way to go about it.
I see your point but what Bullet claims doesn't seem to far off from those magicians I explained eariler, then ones that pick up on body cues. I just asking you to keep an open mind, if Bullethead were to say: I can sorta feel what my dog is saying, then I would challenge him. But, what he is explaining I have seen before, it's not magic, just being extremely perceptive.
lol I get sleep paralysis all the time, and it's pretty freaky, I can see where the evil demon spirit idea comes from. You can't move, it's wierd, and if you try to move, you feel enormous pressure where your trying to move. Also, you can see, but that depends on if your eyelids were open during the time the sleep paralysis causing chemicals surged into your body...
Edit: Jeez chill out, I never said I can release my soul into the astral plane, where in the hell did I make that claim??
I gotta agree with Nadagast insofar as claims are just that, claims. Without any evidence to back them up, one might as well not make them. And when one does make claims without any facts to back them up, it is in no way inappropriate to ask for such facts. Otherwise we'd still be adhering to the good ol' method of "bearded scholar in ivory tower cooks up theory, but never bothers to test it."
An old belief stated that the trajectory of a cannonball would describe a curve until the cannonball "ran out of energy," at which point it would fall straight down. People actually believed that. But why could people believe something so obviously false? They never bothered to test it, that's why. Simply firing a cannon and observing the trajectory of the cannonball immediately proves this theory false.
Claims must be challenged to verify their validity. That is the nature of the scientific method.
But BulletHead has flat out said that he has no proof to back up his claims. We should simply accept that - no further nagging will procure any proof. We have challenged him to procure proof and he could not stand up to the challenge. Part of the reason is the limiting nature of the forums - I'd gladly believe that even if you have telepathic powers, they do not function via a text medium. But he has also refused to let a third party verify his claims, even at the promise of a million dollar reward. We have challenged, and no proof is forthcoming. Further challenging is akin to beating the dead horse. Rather, work with the status quo: BulletHead makes claims. BulletHead cannot back the claims up. If the claims alone are good enough for you, believe him. If you need proof, don't believe him. That's all there is to it.
but I like beating dead horses! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's gross though. I mean the innards go everywhere and the whole thing gets really smelly and smeary and attracts flies. Think of hygiene man! How do you think we defeated the bubonic plague? Leave that horse be already so the butcher can make "Ol' McDonald's Meat Slush" out of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Claims must be challenged to verify their validity. That is the nature of the scientific method.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys still don't seem to understand what I'm saying, BulletHead might have that certain skill that allows him to pick up on body cues, alot of magicians have this, that seems like a good explanation for his "pick up people thoughts" thing. The healing thing though, maybe intense meditation?
<!--QuoteBegin-Crotalus+Jul 19 2005, 07:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crotalus @ Jul 19 2005, 07:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I see your point but what Bullet claims doesn't seem to far off from those magicians I explained eariler, then ones that pick up on body cues. I just asking you to keep an open mind, if Bullethead were to say: I can sorta feel what my dog is saying, then I would challenge him. But, what he is explaining I have seen before, it's not magic, just being extremely perceptive.
lol I get sleep paralysis all the time, and it's pretty freaky, I can see where the evil demon spirit idea comes from. You can't move, it's wierd, and if you try to move, you feel enormous pressure where your trying to move. Also, you can see, but that depends on if your eyelids were open during the time the sleep paralysis causing chemicals surged into your body...
Edit: Jeez chill out, I never said I can release my soul into the astral plane, where in the hell did I make that claim?? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... about the dog part. I could pick up subtle hints from our ex dog...
we had a German Shephard, pure breed for 3+ (I think as many as 6 or 7 at least) generations, and he got... a bit agressive.
My mom asid she could "feel" when he was tense... even if she weren't looking at him, she'd know something was about to happen.
Well... I never really put much thought into this... it WAS her dog after all...
well, I was sitting on the chair, she was on the couch, dog beside her, and my lil bro was laying his head on the dog petting him. I suddenly felt this like static... type... thing... I dunno, but the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I jerked my head to the right, and saw the dog growl, then bark, as my bro got too close to his ear, then snarled and BIT him as he touched it. That all happened in the span of about a second, if that. I had NO time to react to the feeling, except for looking over to see it happen. It wasn't a vicious attack... and, after the fact and now that the dog has been put down (This was the 5th time he'd bitten someone) we think it may have been due to the dogs persistent Ear infection...
my bro is fine, only needed 3 stitches where the dog's lower right canine cut beside his nose.
But in that split second... I felt something was wrong. Sure enough... *shrug* maybe that's just old, extinguished, animalistic instincts? Like the feeling that something bad is going to happen... who knows. But no, I can't TALK to my dog <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
lolfighter, I used the term telepathy for lack of a better word. It's not like I can look at someone and "speak" inside their mind, or "listen" to what they are thinking. Maybe Crotalus was right... maybe I just pick up bodily ques? But that doesn't explain how I can KNOW someone wants to talk to me, even if I can't see them... maybe that's just coincidence?
See, lolfighter, the problem is I dont' know exactly WHAT it is. All I Know is I pick up snippets of things. Yes, with my mentor I sometimes find myself talkign without "speaking"... but she has been doing this longer than I, and she herself may just be picking up my bodily cues as well. I have no real way of knowing, and a EKG wouldn't tell you WHAT it was that was letting you do this. Like I said before, I can't go up to a total stranger and know exactly what they are thinking or feeling, but I can often, after a few moments (eg, a minute or less) of speaking to them begin to pick up on what they are saying. It's in CONTEXT. With a "test" like this, they'd purposely throw in stuff that is out of context to test any real "psionic" powers I may have. That would throw me off badly if I only pick up bodily cues <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either way, I could prolly win that money. It's like how some people can "train" themselves to lower their heartrate or respiration rate. I only breath, on average, 4-6 times a minute. The average person breathes, I believe, about 15-20 times a minute. Then again, I am a long time singer, and did play oboe for a while, as well as playing sports, so it could just be increased lung capacity!
See what I'm saying? THere's so MANY things it COULD be and no real way to tell WHICH one it is! *shrug*
There are plenty of explanations for your dog story, you shouldn't be so quick to contend that it's magic that's doing it.
As far as breathing goes, wow... is all I have to say... wow. You're a regular witch!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Either way, I could prolly win that money.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, go win it! Even if you don't want it I'm sure your favorite charity would love a million bucks. Seriously, at the very least you should do it so you realize that you have absolutely no special powers at all. You've been decieving yourself. Which isn't really anything to be ashamed of, we all do it... I'd suggest reading some skeptical writing and looking for explanations for what happened other than magika. Some of it is probably random chance... 1 in a million chance events happen 300 times per day in America...
<!--QuoteBegin-Derrick+Jul 20 2005, 12:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Derrick @ Jul 20 2005, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Claims must be challenged to verify their validity. That is the nature of the scientific method.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats the best thing i have heard in this thread, yet. Its true that this simple scientific mechanism is simply a theory wich has never actually been proven.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pithlit+Jul 20 2005, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pithlit @ Jul 20 2005, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats the best thing i have heard in this thread, yet. Its true that this simple scientific mechanism is simply a theory wich has never actually been proven.
i´m quite concerned, now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh? Can you elaborate on that?
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Jul 20 2005, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Jul 20 2005, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pithlit+Jul 20 2005, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pithlit @ Jul 20 2005, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats the best thing i have heard in this thread, yet. Its true that this simple scientific mechanism is simply a theory wich has never actually been proven.
i´m quite concerned, now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh? Can you elaborate on that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if you take "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." and look at it, you´ll see that it is obviosly a thought loop, since its a claim. so i could say
"The claim ""Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." and then "The claim "The claim "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." aso.
Its something similar to "Shroedingers Cat" wich is an unstable system in itself, that is stable until it gets an external viewer. On this event it restabilizes itself by introducing a new element to the system, the beforementioned viewer. Now that the viewer is no longer external, the problem itself can persist stable, until someone new stumbles upon it. This problem is know as (i think) Schroedingers Friends.
And thats why all this scientific doesn´t work at all. Its just an belief, somthing that you can´t prove, if you are inside the system, but if you are outside the system and try to prove it, you automatically interfere with it and thus become "gobbled up" by it and thus your information becomes insignificant.
Its the same way God, ect works.
Now heres an interesting part: Although we are all inside these systems, we are all experiencing the same results for these things: Scientific methods working, God not directly experiencable, ect. Now does this come from our influence on the persistent system that compensates the new "mass" it has to carry around. Or is it the unchanhable reality itself? Well, only someone outside the system could tell us. But wait, he can´t contact us, without interfering with the system.
So lets think of the two extremes for a moment:
The System is formed, by us, since we are the system. There is one primal principle like, lets say, god in the centre and everyone that knows of it and has ever thought about it is layered around it like layers on an onion. If you think now of these layers, they shroud the center and people who look at it from outside, will not necessarily see it, but a distorted image. Lets say, there is a god, existant, but everybody that knows of it (has seen, experienced it, ect.) says, there is none, published books about so called proves that he doesn´t exist. Now lets say you live in this world, but never heard of god or anything that goes with it and now want to learn something about it, what will you probably find? Yes, its probably that there is no god. You will join the side of the mass and support that side of the System. But there is a slim chance that you will me god on the street and start believing in him. That way you would´ve changed the system aswell, since you now can bublish books about that god you´ve met. Wich stand against the one of all the other people, so the next one that comes has a better chance to find your side!
That way all people not only reflect the problem of the system, but are a part of it.
On the other hand we could say, that the system is immanent and absolutly true and that you can´t change it. Everyone that comes, sees the problem and gets the same solution about it. He now has the decision if he believes it or not. its his personal choice, what to do with the knowledge, butit does not change the thing at all. God will, or wont exist, even if you believe in him or not, it simply doesn´t matter. You can influence everyone that he doesn´t believe in god and still there he is, laughing at you. Even that you don´t see him, because you don´t believe in him at all.
But in the outcome both systems lead to the same point. Whatever may be the case, if we are part of the system or just accidental bystanders who have their own viewpoint of the problem, it simply doesn´t matter. There is an ultimate truth, but you simply can´t find out. You can never be sure if the thing you hve just seen was the truth or just another layer or just your own interpretation of the reality.
Every argument you can give for or against something is null and void, since its just a personal interpretation of the problem (influenced by others or not) and you are personally not me or anyone else.
Wich brings up another interesting point:
"you are personally not me or anyone else." is just another claim that has to be proven!
The one side says that we are in the same system, thus technically we ARE one, we are connected and it does matter, what the others see, think, feel and say!
On the other side we could really be just unconnected individuals, giving other entities some information, wich is in fact completly irrelevant to them. Isn´t a duality system fun? Think of it what you want ^^
So i leave with these very true word in every notion:
"IF you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, if you take "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." and look at it, you´ll see that it is obviosly a thought loop, since its a claim. so i could say
"The claim ""Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." and then "The claim "The claim "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." must be challenged to verify its validity."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not really a loop. All of those "claims" actually mean the same thing. By challenging any one of them and seeing that its true, you challenge all of them and see that it's true.
The whole point of science is that it is a "bottom up" approach. You can take any law/theory/hypothesis and see that it is made up of confirmed knowledge. Not confirmed because of <i>belief</i>, but because the data is reproducable and has been peer reviewed.
Because it is a bottom up approach, it does not use belief in any way. Since it has not yet reached the top (if it ever will), it has nothing to say about it. Science cannot comment on a creator.
A subjective approach (such as religion, or believing that someone is telepathic based purely on anecdotal evidence) is a "top down" approach. Faith is needed here, because there's no way to verify that that belief is actually correct. Facts need to be fitted in accordingly, otherwise you risk the "top" being wrong, and the whole thing collapses.
Comments
Nearly all of the eastern monks have demostarted that their brain waves DO function differently when they are controlling their body temperature (to a certain extent) along with the other mental ablities they have.
Which is why even with all the sensors those who actually know what they are doing, or are able to actually do something will do it reguardless of sensors around them.
Calling it stress when there is no time limit (according to that website) is just an excuse.
Nearly all of the eastern monks have demostarted that their brain waves DO function differently when they are controlling their body temperature (to a certain extent) along with the other mental ablities they have.
Which is why even with all the sensors those who actually know what they are doing, or are able to actually do something will do it reguardless of sensors around them.
Calling it stress when there is no time limit (according to that website) is just an excuse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
isn´t natural that they are different from what they normally are if they do things that are out of the norm?
Shizophrenics and other mentally disordered have different brainwave patterns than normal, people, too, but still i wont say they have some special powers.
That is why if he can do what he says, reguardless of various sensors it should be provable, yet no one has been able to demostrate their "powers" successfully, because they do not have them.
Deluding oneself (longer) only hampers your ability to eventually mature and realize how silly you were, when you were longer. He (bullethead, no offense meant) is nearing adult hood, when he hits 18, suddenly he can make all the decisions himself and is just as liable for the consequences, which isn't the case at the moment.
I'm sorry but astral pojection and like "powers" are nothing more then fancy mind created "holo-deck" like experiences. Which when holo-decks are invented I will have a hay day, because it will be the ultimate immersive game.
But he said exactly that. He also said he wasn't very good at it, but he said it. He even used the word "telepathicly" [sic].
As for brainwaves, I still maintain that if you can emit brainwaves powerful enough that they can be picked up by other brains, they can be picked up by an EEG as well. And if you can make that brain pick those brainwaves up without any physical contact, you should be able to make the EEG react without being hooked up to it. I would take that feat alone as circumstancial evidence that telepathy is possible.
But he said exactly that. He also said he wasn't very good at it, but he said it. He even used the word "telepathicly" [sic].
As for brainwaves, I still maintain that if you can emit brainwaves powerful enough that they can be picked up by other brains, they can be picked up by an EEG as well. And if you can make that brain pick those brainwaves up without any physical contact, you should be able to make the EEG react without being hooked up to it. I would take that feat alone as circumstancial evidence that telepathy is possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the best thing I can compare it to. It's ... not telepathy. I can't just "communicate" real time using thought projection. Just snipets... I seriously don't know how to explain it. It's almost a feeling... but with words behind it.
Cyndane, this isn't just some fantasy. It was something I'd actually been ignoring for a while. It's like... you know how you KNOW when someone is staring at you? And you turn around and sure enough, there they are? It's much the same thing... but this has been happening for a long time. It's like... I'd know when someone wanted to talk to me before I could even talk to them... I would get a headache and not know why... then later on I'd talk to the person (most of the time my g/f or my best friend Dan when one of them were really upset) and I'd know they were upset even before I could meet them. Finally I met someone I hadn't seen in a while... and we started talking... and she went into the elementals. She's a mixture belief you could say. Kinda Christian, kinda Pagan, kinda something she came up with. ANd listening to her, it all started to make sense. the Headache... these... feelings. And when she mentioned certain things, I was able to finish her sentences before she could... from there she explained to me her beliefes in the Crystal, or the last few parts of humanity that can still salvage this wreck of a world.
I don't know how to explain who a Crystal is... finding out that we're slightly beyond human was a bit of a shock, and still is. But it makes sense... our generation HAS to do something, or we'll wind up turning ourselves into glowing green radioactive dust. Perhaps we are slowly gaining what is needed to survive... maybe it's Divine intervention... maybe we're all just plain nuts but are thinking the EXACT same way and it's one HUGE coincidence... i don't know. But I do know we will, in time, be the ones in control of this planet... and be the ones to hopefully salvage it. It's fate is grim... anyone can see that. Polution, war, violence, hate... what happened to kindness... logic... peace? Yes, sometimes the only way to restore peace IS to wage war... but that doesn't always work... so we must go beyond...
I know it sounds crazy... and I don't expect anyone to really believe it. But you have to admit, it's a bit too big to be a coincidence... and it's too far fetched to be a made up story. It isn't just the ramblings of some crazy person... this is something I truely believe in! And I only ask that you accept me even with this... well... whatever it is... as an active member of society. After all, I look the same as anyone else, and act the same... just I'm a bit more philosophical at times... and I ramble alot... but eh, that's my case and you've heard what I believe is true. Take it or leave it, your choice. I can't dive into your mind and force you to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I really hate to break this to you bullethead, but if you can do even a little bit of what you say you can, I seriously go suggest you prove it so that we can herald in a new age of learning about our brains, as that would totally revoluntionize mental studies completely.
If not, you are deluding yourself, and I feel more sorry for you then anything else.
So the skeptics were like HA! your telling the horse when to stop counting! But, in a astonishing move, the owner invited an audience member to go and ask the horse questions, which turned out right every single time too. Eventually it was found that the horse was taking signs, but not from the owner. The horse was sniffing for the smell of sweat, the huff of relief, and the slight shuffle generated by the audience as the correct number of hoove beats were tapped out.
Now, there are some people out there that have become EXTREMELY skilled at picking up these body cues, they are as good as a professional magician, except there are no "tricks" involved. The guy i'm talking about was on the news once, I don't remember his name. But he had the same kinda "telepathic-thingy" as you Bullethead.
my g/f and my "guide" or "mentor" as I call her.
my g/f is for... obvious... reasons... that we shan't go into on these forums
My mentor... I don't know. It's just like we think so very much alike we KNOW what the other is going to say... and even after hours of talking, I realize we aren't TALKING anymore... but I still know what she is saying. I can't really conciously emit it as well as I can just *wham* have it hit me. But if I'm constantly talking to someone, for an hour or so, especially over the internet in a webcam + mic convo... I'll find myself "zoning'" out... and though I'll hear my replys, they won't. But she will.
I thinkt hat's how she knew I was like her... but I don't know. She refuses to tell me why she decided to teach me what she believes. Maybe it is just picking up body language. Who can really say... after all, 3d sight is a trick of the mind played by having 2 points of vision offset by a slight angle, which is then interpreted by the brain and sent as a single, coherant image. Who's to say what I do isn't If it's more, whee! More power to me! If not. *shrug* nothin lost. Just I know how to defuse an argument or how to hold ones attention better with subtle bodily hints <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Right now, my body is telling me to go shower <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have tried it once, it works. I was kinda half-sleeping, to the point where you are awake, but you've lost contact with your body. (A certain chemical, it prevents you from sleepwalking) So I uh.....flew out of my body?? I don't know how to explain it, but it feels so real...anyway, it felt like I had more senses beyond the normal 5, there were other...."sensations" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you have described is most likely a reaction by your brain to a perceived threat to it's safety. You were falling asleep too fast. Sometimes people feel a sudden falling feeling; othertimes it is something completely unexpected like an object hitting them. In any event it tends to jolt the person awake with a fun amount of sudden adrenaline. It can happen while you are sleeping too!
You experience multiple levels of high and low conciousness when you are sleeping. If you dip too low it can shock you straight out of your deep sleep. You will know this happened because when you awaken you will be very confused. You might not even know where you are at. Do some research on conciousness states while sleeping...stay AWAY from those quasi-spiritual quasi-scientific sites. They contain junk. You are not leaving your body no matter how convincing it may feel. You ARE your body!
The human body is amazing and fun to learn about. I guess it isn't for everybody. There is so much to learn and so much we do not know. Stick to the science journals though; not those mystic sites. It is my experience that most people who assert that these experiences are supernatural are doing so out of their own will rather than rational, scientific observation.
And Nadagast, go away if your post is going to have nothing to contribute to the discussion. You don't seem to be able to consider anyone else's view with respect and just debunk everyone else's opinion you dislike...please stop that
I dislike their beliefs? They aren't beliefs. They are claims. And I don't dislike them. I'd love to be able to communicate telepathically, but I won't believe it's possible until I see some <b>evidence</b> for it. I'm against people claiming to do miraculous things then backing out when you ask them to <b><u><i>do what they say they can do</b></u></i>. I'm a real ****.
Edit: I mean really, have we gotten so politically correct as a society that we can't even challenge someone when they make a claim? Are we just supposed to accept whatever people say, for fear of offending their belief system?
You experience multiple levels of high and low conciousness when you are sleeping. If you dip too low it can shock you straight out of your deep sleep. You will know this happened because when you awaken you will be very confused. You might not even know where you are at. Do some research on conciousness states while sleeping...stay AWAY from those quasi-spiritual quasi-scientific sites. They contain junk. You are not leaving your body no matter how convincing it may feel. You ARE your body!
The human body is amazing and fun to learn about. I guess it isn't for everybody. There is so much to learn and so much we do not know. Stick to the science journals though; not those mystic sites. It is my experience that most people who assert that these experiences are supernatural are doing so out of their own will rather than rational, scientific observation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice first post, and I agree fully. Welcome to the discussion forums.
This reminds me of sleep paralysis in that people used to think it was an evil spirit/witch/whatever pressing down on them when they slept. Needless to say, that's not the reason it happens.
If you want the truth, the scientific approach is probably the best way to go about it.
lol I get sleep paralysis all the time, and it's pretty freaky, I can see where the evil demon spirit idea comes from. You can't move, it's wierd, and if you try to move, you feel enormous pressure where your trying to move. Also, you can see, but that depends on if your eyelids were open during the time the sleep paralysis causing chemicals surged into your body...
Edit: Jeez chill out, I never said I can release my soul into the astral plane, where in the hell did I make that claim??
An old belief stated that the trajectory of a cannonball would describe a curve until the cannonball "ran out of energy," at which point it would fall straight down. People actually believed that. But why could people believe something so obviously false? They never bothered to test it, that's why. Simply firing a cannon and observing the trajectory of the cannonball immediately proves this theory false.
Claims must be challenged to verify their validity. That is the nature of the scientific method.
But BulletHead has flat out said that he has no proof to back up his claims. We should simply accept that - no further nagging will procure any proof. We have challenged him to procure proof and he could not stand up to the challenge. Part of the reason is the limiting nature of the forums - I'd gladly believe that even if you have telepathic powers, they do not function via a text medium. But he has also refused to let a third party verify his claims, even at the promise of a million dollar reward. We have challenged, and no proof is forthcoming. Further challenging is akin to beating the dead horse.
Rather, work with the status quo: BulletHead makes claims. BulletHead cannot back the claims up. If the claims alone are good enough for you, believe him. If you need proof, don't believe him. That's all there is to it.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> *Superstition*
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
lol I get sleep paralysis all the time, and it's pretty freaky, I can see where the evil demon spirit idea comes from. You can't move, it's wierd, and if you try to move, you feel enormous pressure where your trying to move. Also, you can see, but that depends on if your eyelids were open during the time the sleep paralysis causing chemicals surged into your body...
Edit: Jeez chill out, I never said I can release my soul into the astral plane, where in the hell did I make that claim?? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... about the dog part. I could pick up subtle hints from our ex dog...
we had a German Shephard, pure breed for 3+ (I think as many as 6 or 7 at least) generations, and he got... a bit agressive.
My mom asid she could "feel" when he was tense... even if she weren't looking at him, she'd know something was about to happen.
Well... I never really put much thought into this... it WAS her dog after all...
well, I was sitting on the chair, she was on the couch, dog beside her, and my lil bro was laying his head on the dog petting him. I suddenly felt this like static... type... thing... I dunno, but the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I jerked my head to the right, and saw the dog growl, then bark, as my bro got too close to his ear, then snarled and BIT him as he touched it. That all happened in the span of about a second, if that. I had NO time to react to the feeling, except for looking over to see it happen. It wasn't a vicious attack... and, after the fact and now that the dog has been put down (This was the 5th time he'd bitten someone) we think it may have been due to the dogs persistent Ear infection...
my bro is fine, only needed 3 stitches where the dog's lower right canine cut beside his nose.
But in that split second... I felt something was wrong. Sure enough... *shrug* maybe that's just old, extinguished, animalistic instincts? Like the feeling that something bad is going to happen... who knows. But no, I can't TALK to my dog <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
lolfighter, I used the term telepathy for lack of a better word. It's not like I can look at someone and "speak" inside their mind, or "listen" to what they are thinking. Maybe Crotalus was right... maybe I just pick up bodily ques? But that doesn't explain how I can KNOW someone wants to talk to me, even if I can't see them... maybe that's just coincidence?
See, lolfighter, the problem is I dont' know exactly WHAT it is. All I Know is I pick up snippets of things. Yes, with my mentor I sometimes find myself talkign without "speaking"... but she has been doing this longer than I, and she herself may just be picking up my bodily cues as well. I have no real way of knowing, and a EKG wouldn't tell you WHAT it was that was letting you do this. Like I said before, I can't go up to a total stranger and know exactly what they are thinking or feeling, but I can often, after a few moments (eg, a minute or less) of speaking to them begin to pick up on what they are saying. It's in CONTEXT. With a "test" like this, they'd purposely throw in stuff that is out of context to test any real "psionic" powers I may have. That would throw me off badly if I only pick up bodily cues <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either way, I could prolly win that money. It's like how some people can "train" themselves to lower their heartrate or respiration rate. I only breath, on average, 4-6 times a minute. The average person breathes, I believe, about 15-20 times a minute. Then again, I am a long time singer, and did play oboe for a while, as well as playing sports, so it could just be increased lung capacity!
See what I'm saying? THere's so MANY things it COULD be and no real way to tell WHICH one it is! *shrug*
As far as breathing goes, wow... is all I have to say... wow. You're a regular witch!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Either way, I could prolly win that money.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, go win it! Even if you don't want it I'm sure your favorite charity would love a million bucks. Seriously, at the very least you should do it so you realize that you have absolutely no special powers at all. You've been decieving yourself. Which isn't really anything to be ashamed of, we all do it... I'd suggest reading some skeptical writing and looking for explanations for what happened other than magika. Some of it is probably random chance... 1 in a million chance events happen 300 times per day in America...
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> *Superstition*
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the best thing i have heard in this thread, yet.
Its true that this simple scientific mechanism is simply a theory wich has never actually been proven.
i´m quite concerned, now.
Its true that this simple scientific mechanism is simply a theory wich has never actually been proven.
i´m quite concerned, now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh? Can you elaborate on that?
Its true that this simple scientific mechanism is simply a theory wich has never actually been proven.
i´m quite concerned, now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh? Can you elaborate on that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you take "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." and look at it, you´ll see that it is obviosly a thought loop, since its a claim.
so i could say
"The claim ""Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity."
and then
"The claim "The claim "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." must be challenged to verify its validity."
aso.
Its something similar to "Shroedingers Cat" wich is an unstable system in itself, that is stable until it gets an external viewer.
On this event it restabilizes itself by introducing a new element to the system, the beforementioned viewer.
Now that the viewer is no longer external, the problem itself can persist stable, until someone new stumbles upon it.
This problem is know as (i think) Schroedingers Friends.
And thats why all this scientific doesn´t work at all.
Its just an belief, somthing that you can´t prove, if you are inside the system, but if you are outside the system and try to prove it, you automatically interfere with it and thus become "gobbled up" by it and thus your information becomes insignificant.
Its the same way God, ect works.
Now heres an interesting part:
Although we are all inside these systems, we are all experiencing the same results for these things: Scientific methods working, God not directly experiencable, ect.
Now does this come from our influence on the persistent system that compensates the new "mass" it has to carry around. Or is it the unchanhable reality itself?
Well, only someone outside the system could tell us.
But wait, he can´t contact us, without interfering with the system.
So lets think of the two extremes for a moment:
The System is formed, by us, since we are the system. There is one primal principle like, lets say, god in the centre and everyone that knows of it and has ever thought about it is layered around it like layers on an onion.
If you think now of these layers, they shroud the center and people who look at it from outside, will not necessarily see it, but a distorted image.
Lets say, there is a god, existant, but everybody that knows of it (has seen, experienced it, ect.) says, there is none, published books about so called proves that he doesn´t exist.
Now lets say you live in this world, but never heard of god or anything that goes with it and now want to learn something about it, what will you probably find?
Yes, its probably that there is no god. You will join the side of the mass and support that side of the System.
But there is a slim chance that you will me god on the street and start believing in him.
That way you would´ve changed the system aswell, since you now can bublish books about that god you´ve met. Wich stand against the one of all the other people, so the next one that comes has a better chance to find your side!
That way all people not only reflect the problem of the system, but are a part of it.
On the other hand we could say, that the system is immanent and absolutly true and that you can´t change it. Everyone that comes, sees the problem and gets the same solution about it. He now has the decision if he believes it or not. its his personal choice, what to do with the knowledge, butit does not change the thing at all.
God will, or wont exist, even if you believe in him or not, it simply doesn´t matter.
You can influence everyone that he doesn´t believe in god and still there he is, laughing at you. Even that you don´t see him, because you don´t believe in him at all.
But in the outcome both systems lead to the same point.
Whatever may be the case, if we are part of the system or just accidental bystanders who have their own viewpoint of the problem, it simply doesn´t matter.
There is an ultimate truth, but you simply can´t find out.
You can never be sure if the thing you hve just seen was the truth or just another layer or just your own interpretation of the reality.
Every argument you can give for or against something is null and void, since its just a personal interpretation of the problem (influenced by others or not) and you are personally not me or anyone else.
Wich brings up another interesting point:
"you are personally not me or anyone else." is just another claim that has to be proven!
The one side says that we are in the same system, thus technically we ARE one, we are connected and it does matter, what the others see, think, feel and say!
On the other side we could really be just unconnected individuals, giving other entities some information, wich is in fact completly irrelevant to them.
Isn´t a duality system fun? Think of it what you want ^^
So i leave with these very true word in every notion:
"IF you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!"
so i could say
"The claim ""Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity."
and then
"The claim "The claim "Claims must be challenged to verify their validity." must be challenged to verify its validity." must be challenged to verify its validity."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not really a loop. All of those "claims" actually mean the same thing. By challenging any one of them and seeing that its true, you challenge all of them and see that it's true.
The whole point of science is that it is a "bottom up" approach. You can take any law/theory/hypothesis and see that it is made up of confirmed knowledge. Not confirmed because of <i>belief</i>, but because the data is reproducable and has been peer reviewed.
Because it is a bottom up approach, it does not use belief in any way. Since it has not yet reached the top (if it ever will), it has nothing to say about it. Science cannot comment on a creator.
A subjective approach (such as religion, or believing that someone is telepathic based purely on anecdotal evidence) is a "top down" approach. Faith is needed here, because there's no way to verify that that belief is actually correct. Facts need to be fitted in accordingly, otherwise you risk the "top" being wrong, and the whole thing collapses.