What's The Deal With These People?
Rapier7
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">You're probably one of them.</div> Out of kicks, I go to Urbandictionary and just type in common words. USA is one of them. Most of the definitions are negative.
You get all these snide little remarks about the good ol' US of A and practically every time I can tell you that they are 12-24 years old, living in upper-middleclass American society.
Seriously, what is the deal with you guys? You're attacking the very country/system which benefits you the most. Most people living in lower class America aren't criticizing the US, they're simply struggling to pay the bills and waiting for that promotion that catapaults them into upper-middle class America so they can procreate and have offspring who will invariably swing to the Liberal side of the political map and learn to mock and hate the US and all of its ways.
Pfft, Corporate America. Bush is a Nazi. Stupid Neocons. Right wing extremists. Sound familiar? That's what you'll hear when you talk to these sort of people.
Why? I mean, you benefit so much from the US yet you constantly attack it and ridicule it, all the while when you're listening to your goddamned iPods, driving your cars, and rising and sleeping under a household whose owners are financially secure and thriving.
Must be that rebellious phase you guys go through...but if anybody who is currently:
A: American
B: within the 12-24 demographic
C: have financially secure parents
would care to explain just why they hate the country that serves them so much, I would be glad to hear it.
You get all these snide little remarks about the good ol' US of A and practically every time I can tell you that they are 12-24 years old, living in upper-middleclass American society.
Seriously, what is the deal with you guys? You're attacking the very country/system which benefits you the most. Most people living in lower class America aren't criticizing the US, they're simply struggling to pay the bills and waiting for that promotion that catapaults them into upper-middle class America so they can procreate and have offspring who will invariably swing to the Liberal side of the political map and learn to mock and hate the US and all of its ways.
Pfft, Corporate America. Bush is a Nazi. Stupid Neocons. Right wing extremists. Sound familiar? That's what you'll hear when you talk to these sort of people.
Why? I mean, you benefit so much from the US yet you constantly attack it and ridicule it, all the while when you're listening to your goddamned iPods, driving your cars, and rising and sleeping under a household whose owners are financially secure and thriving.
Must be that rebellious phase you guys go through...but if anybody who is currently:
A: American
B: within the 12-24 demographic
C: have financially secure parents
would care to explain just why they hate the country that serves them so much, I would be glad to hear it.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
B) I'm 17
C: My parents are as financially secure as we could possibly be without being overly rich or majorly poor (middle middle class)
I hate the USA because of it's corrupt leadership. It's FARKED UP. Badly. If we dont' nuke someone, and wind up getting nuked ourselves, we'll kill all the Terrans (read, Earth Dwellers) by pollution. It is up to the next Generation (read, our Generation), known as the Crystal Generation, to save it. But these "crystals" have, for a large part, become tainted. Drugs, sex, alcohol... bad musical and theatrical role models (yes, Rap is a big culprit ONLY because so many rappers sing about sex drugs and violence... some are good, even I must admit that) and the fact that those born with money will never, EVER know what it's like to be persecuted-
we had a senator get caught speeding, over 70 MPH over the speedlimit. He got away with a warning, even though he got caught MULTIPLE times.
Queen Elizabeths son? (not too up to date on the Royal House) Prince something was caught speeding- the cops brought him to her and asked what to do. Her response was pretty much as follows:
"What to do? Impound his car, take his license, and fine him just like everybody else"
Good ole Elizabeth! She knows nobody should be above the law.
Course, here in the US, you got enough green, you can get away with all but Murder... and even then so long as it isn't anyone important (read, has money or connections)
That's why I hate the United States of Aristocrats
B) I'm 17
C: My parents are as financially secure as we could possibly be without being overly rich or majorly poor (middle middle class)
I hate the USA because of it's corrupt leadership. It's FARKED UP. Badly. If we dont' nuke someone, and wind up getting nuked ourselves, we'll kill all the Terrans (read, Earth Dwellers) by pollution. It is up to the next Generation (read, our Generation), known as the Crystal Generation, to save it. But these "crystals" have, for a large part, become tainted. Drugs, sex, alcohol... bad musical and theatrical role models (yes, Rap is a big culprit ONLY because so many rappers sing about sex drugs and violence... some are good, even I must admit that) and the fact that those born with money will never, EVER know what it's like to be persecuted-
we had a senator get caught speeding, over 70 MPH over the speedlimit. He got away with a warning, even though he got caught MULTIPLE times.
Queen Elizabeths son? (not too up to date on the Royal House) Prince something was caught speeding- the cops brought him to her and asked what to do. Her response was pretty much as follows:
"What to do? Impound his car, take his license, and fine him just like everybody else"
Good ole Elizabeth! She knows nobody should be above the law.
Course, here in the US, you got enough green, you can get away with all but Murder... and even then so long as it isn't anyone important (read, has money or connections)
That's why I hate the United States of Aristocrats <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you hate the Bush administration, or the entire nation and everything it stands for?
I want to add about pollution that Europe under the almighty cure-all for the worlds pollution woes, the Kyoto treaty, created more pollution then they did without it.
We're the Crystal Generation now!? Or maybe I’m past that cut...who the hell makes these names up?
You can't blame the American system or government for the popular culture.
The US government didn't make dumb white suburban kids become infatuated with gangster culture, with ghettos and with rap, MTV did.
Besides it's going to be up to our generation of kids to fix all the mistakes we make, which will be plenty I'm sure, so good luck....Ruby Generation?
As for the corruption in government, I agree with you to an extent...but do you really want to be the State Trooper who drags a Senator into jail...can you say "end of career"?
Our system has its flaws but we can fix it...I think.
In the area I'm living in, I don't particulary like the kids, they are
mostly shallow and cannot seem to think about anything besides
popular culture...
Where I'm from, most of the kids would fit right in with the NS
discussion forums...
Personally, I don't hate the country. THE PRESIDENT IS NOT THE COUNTRY. I loathe the slack-jawed moron that was placed into office.
Reasoning being that he can't even speak English properly half the time, and spends the rest smarming like an idiot, while proposing bills to weaken our existing regulatory requirements... using names completely opposing the intent of the bill. 'Clean air act' allowing factories and power plants to vent MORE smoke/waste vapors. 'Patriot act' allowing for invasion of privacy, when a patriot would be defending themselves against exactly that kind of REMOVAL of rights ("He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin).
The list goes on. And on. And on.
Continuing. Supposedly, most of the richest and 'best' are in favor of Bush. Fine... so place a heavier vote-count on the states which produce the most money for the nation. Interestingly enough, California generates roughly half of the gross national product, yet overwhelmingly voted Kerry; myself included. If the world were run by means of traditional republican values (success being a mark of aptitude), a good chunk of the Central States would account for a single vote.
Traditionally, Republicans have been all about taking care of the home front before going out to help neighboring countries. Democrats are the 'left wing' who supposedly can't stand for war crimes and inhumane treatment of populace and so on. Funny how Bush was willing to invade another country under the premise of freeing its people, when we've ignored so many others that are in far worse shape.
Oh, that's right. They don't have any oil.
Short version is, Republicans have become in-favor of larger, more intrusive government that sticks its nose up other countries' ***holes, when it profits them.
Democrats are asking that the government keep its hands to itself, help out the people HERE before trying to justify an illegal war.
Anyone else see the reversal? If not... since when have Americans started practicing doublethink?
On that same line. It's funny how a war against a concept (Terrorists! guess what, moron. You can't kill an idea, and just spread it FURTHER by giving it attention. Don't think about purple hippos! Jerk.) can just keep going on and on, with the target redirecting itself any time a solution is near, to maintain a state of perpetual war.
Don't believe me? Anyone else remember that we've been at 'war' for going on FOUR YEARS?! And that the target has changed no less than three times.
Now then. Put down the pork rinds and go read some Orwell. You might actually be a bit scared by the similarities, if you use your brain for more than an american flag-hat stand.
Also, people don't understand politics enough to differenciate an administration with a whole country's history, population and economy.
Mostly for reasons stated previously, but also at seeing what's been done in my brief lifetime, has been enough for me to hate the government. This country is great, most of the rights your allowed here you can't get anywhere else, it's just the government in place that's slowly choking the **** out of everything it once stood for.
Personally, I don't hate the country. THE PRESIDENT IS NOT THE COUNTRY. I loathe the slack-jawed moron that was placed into office.
Reasoning being that he can't even speak English properly half the time, and spends the rest smarming like an idiot, while proposing bills to weaken our existing regulatory requirements... using names completely opposing the intent of the bill. 'Clean air act' allowing factories and power plants to vent MORE smoke/waste vapors. 'Patriot act' allowing for invasion of privacy, when a patriot would be defending themselves against exactly that kind of REMOVAL of rights ("He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin).
The list goes on. And on. And on.
Continuing. Supposedly, most of the richest and 'best' are in favor of Bush. Fine... so place a heavier vote-count on the states which produce the most money for the nation. Interestingly enough, California generates roughly half of the gross national product, yet overwhelmingly voted Kerry; myself included. If the world were run by means of traditional republican values (success being a mark of aptitude), a good chunk of the Central States would account for a single vote.
Traditionally, Republicans have been all about taking care of the home front before going out to help neighboring countries. Democrats are the 'left wing' who supposedly can't stand for war crimes and inhumane treatment of populace and so on. Funny how Bush was willing to invade another country under the premise of freeing its people, when we've ignored so many others that are in far worse shape.
Oh, that's right. They don't have any oil.
Short version is, Republicans have become in-favor of larger, more intrusive government that sticks its nose up other countries' ***holes, when it profits them.
Democrats are asking that the government keep its hands to itself, help out the people HERE before trying to justify an illegal war.
Anyone else see the reversal? If not... since when have Americans started practicing doublethink?
On that same line. It's funny how a war against a concept (Terrorists! guess what, moron. You can't kill an idea, and just spread it FURTHER by giving it attention. Don't think about purple hippos! Jerk.) can just keep going on and on, with the target redirecting itself any time a solution is near, to maintain a state of perpetual war.
Don't believe me? Anyone else remember that we've been at 'war' for going on FOUR YEARS?! And that the target has changed no less than three times.
Now then. Put down the pork rinds and go read some Orwell. You might actually be a bit scared by the similarities, if you use your brain for more than an american flag-hat stand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you look back through history you will find the same kinds of acts that do the same kinds of things as the Patriot Act during or before nearly every major war we've ever had. Most notablely the <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts' target='_blank'>Alien and Sedition Acts</a>. I've said this before, but I'll keep saying it. Our bill of rights exists to remove these oppressions on our liberties, not prevent them. You can't prevent them. The Patriot Act isn't a new concept, so I don't see why everyone's touting it as a Bush only thing. We're right to be **** about it, it's oppression of liberties, for sure. But it's nothing new.
I also think it's interesting how everyone's so surprised we went to Iraq for oil. Bush himself alluded to an energy crisis on the horizon in the early years of his first term. The world moves on oil. We cook, clean, transport, extract, heal, drink, live, sleep, produce, and thrive because of oil. Oil is our life blood. Oil influenced the entire cold war and guided its path. Oil is king, now and until its exhaustion. You may think it's barbaric, but unless you're working on ways to locate, extract, refine, and use an alternate resources without using any oil or at least a very minimum, you have no rights to complain about the extremes we goto to procure oil. It's comparable to a son or daughter condeming his/her mother for being a stripper to earn the money to put food on the table. If a person can't or won't think of a better, less degrading way to get that money, then he/she can't judge anyone else.
I would say that kid has a few issues with over-pride, and suggest that he/she spend a few weeks in hunger and then re-evaluate how he/she feels on the matter.
Not to be nit picky but 44% of CA did vote for Bush, so if you were to increase your states worth, you’re also increasing the amount of discord between voters.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Short version is, Republicans have become in-favor of larger, more intrusive government that sticks its nose up other countries' ***holes, when it profits them.
Democrats are asking that the government keep its hands to itself, help out the people HERE before trying to justify an illegal war.
Anyone else see the reversal? If not... since when have Americans started practicing doublethink?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The two parties have become so vitriolic that nether one can stand the other no matter what the issues are; both sides are equally guilty in this equation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On that same line. It's funny how a war against a concept (Terrorists! guess what, moron. You can't kill an idea, and just spread it FURTHER by giving it attention. Don't think about purple hippos! Jerk.) can just keep going on and on, with the target redirecting itself any time a solution is near, to maintain a state of perpetual war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terrorists are not a concept they are the perpetrators of an act of terror. The tricky part is defining what an act of terror is and usually the side that wins has the final say.
The problem is your taking it at face value based upon our president’s childlike generalizations. I assure you the people at the CIA and in the Special Forces know specifically what groups they are after, and a quick trip to the FBI's website can put some faces on terrorism for you. Also it’s kind of hard to maintain a state of "perpetual" war in America, I'm assuming you’re making vague allusions to 1984? In a few years we'll have a massive upheaval of government, and we'll see what becomes of the War on Terror, I find it hard to believe that the entire government is in on some shadow war to keep us complacent and that future administrations will be able to flawlessly continue the ruse.
Also Iraq is not part of the War on Terror, it has had effects upon it, but it is not part of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also think it's interesting how everyone's so surprised we went to Iraq for oil. Bush himself alluded to an energy crisis on the horizon in the early years of his first term. The world moves on oil. We cook, clean, transport, extract, heal, drink, live, sleep, produce, and thrive because of oil. Oil is our life blood. Oil influenced the entire cold war and guided its path. Oil is king, now and until its exhaustion. You may think it's barbaric, but unless you're working on ways to locate, extract, refine, and use an alternate resources without using any oil or at least a very minimum, you have no rights to complain about the extremes we goto to procure oil. It's comparable to a son or daughter condeming his/her mother for being a stripper to earn the money to put food on the table. If a person can't or won't think of a better, less degrading way to get that money, then he/she can't judge anyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Everyone likes to scream "No Blood for Oil" but those people might change their tunes when getting to work in a car costs more then they earn that day.
Crotalus, please look up words you don't know. Posting asking for someone to define a term for you, no matter the context, adds nothing to a discussion thread.
Back on topic...
NiN - The Hand That Feeds has some bearing here.
If you don't like the way the hand that feeds you aquires food, will you have the strength to get up off your knees and bite that hand? Not to incite riots, here <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sniveling about it as you continue to accept it means nothing. Figuring out new ways to get the food, then subsequently rising agains the hand, means a hell of a lot more.
Me? I'm content to accept the hand as my master.
If they seriously had a bone to pick with the US, these remarks would be less vague and pinpoint the supposed problem...they'd be doing their research instead of blindly throwing crap around. If they didn't, then I don't think they really understand what they are doing, if you don't know why you hate the "enemy" then your just jumping on some bandwagon...
I have a question, some of us hate the government, but does that mean we hate the US? The government and the country are seen as a whole by most people...
They don't hate the US. They hate the way it's heading, they hate their inability to effect change, and mostly they are sad, not angry, with the current state of affairs.
You're overreacting Rapier7. (as usual <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to be nit picky but 44% of CA did vote for Bush<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And 66% didn't. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just saying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rob+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rob)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you don't like the way the hand that feeds you aquires food, will you have the strength to get up off your knees and bite that hand?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's a hidden meaning in the song... I though everybody knew that.
As for me in case you were wondering.
I love the US. It's a testimate to the power of unified diversity. Other nations are jealous or afraid of the US's power, but where is the power being generated from? If each state was it's own nation they wouldn't be very powerful. (California, Texas, New York, and Florida would still be fairly powerful nations though) But it is when they are all <i>UNITED</i> that it becomes the super power know as the USA. Just something to keep in mind. It's a collective federation of states.
I also respect and am a lobbyist for the US military. The military is not just for defense but it pioneers new technology and aides the economy.
I'm also referred to by others as a "champion of freedom." I strongly defend all freedom rights. (though you have to use common sense and be responsible with your freedoms to not trample on the freedoms of others)
But I'm also disappointed with what is happening to this nation. People say the Sun Tzu is 99% common sense but why in the hell does the federal government never pay head to it and decides to ignore history so we can repeat it with more loss of life? Why? (remember that I said earlier that I'm a lobbyist of the US military) What's the value of a good soldier's life? What the value of hurting the US economy?
Sun Tzu says never enter a war you can't win. Combine that with the fact that it is impossible to wage war on a crime. You don't <i>war</i> crime, you<i><b>police</b></i> crime. Want to defeat international crimes like terrorism or brutal dictatorships like Saddam? You need an international police force. If one nation does it, it becomes the bully. No body like a bully and believe it or not international opinion matters until the day where there are no nations because they've all united into one big global nation. Military power is great for destruction but construction is an even hard feat. Construction requires economy, effort, and time.
I got a question I've be confounded by and get me angry when ever I think about it:
<!--QuoteBegin-not a quote. I did this for formatting puroposes. Please don't quote me on this.+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (not a quote. I did this for formatting puroposes. Please don't quote me on this.)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Executive branch lying scandals. Let's look a the current an most recent.
<i><u>President Clinton:</u></i><ul>
</li><li>great multitasker, helped economy tremendously and was very active in international diplomacy though peaceful means
</li><li>the lie: got a **** and lied about it
</li><li>the cost: 40-80 mil sperm cells, beatings from wife, daughter extremely embarrassed/nauseated & social life ruined, angry or laughing American public, international embarrassment, wasted time, ~$1mil wasted, and thankfully he had the honor to fess up and apologize for lying even though it meant career suicide, but <i>nobody died!</i> (contrast with below)
</li><li>media response: HUGE!!! WHAT A FIELD DAY! Everything from Fox & CNN exclusives for months to jokes in comedy shows like SNL.
</li></ul>
&
<i><u>President Bush:</u></i><ul>
</li><li>moral man built on the foundation of the religion he follows, will do what he sets his mind to, one of the most influential global figures (I’m sure some of you are going to think of something else I could add here)
</li><li>the lie: WMD's in Iraq, took active step to silence anyone who disagreed with the shaky intelligence report, which is now most certainly was a lie
(ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads me to believe that is similar to what happened in Tom Clancy's Clear & Present Danger where the president made a suggestion and his team made it happen though I feel that Bush was more of a naive puppet and his team was acting on their own)
</li><li>the cost: <b><i>our</i></b> great soldiers died and suffer the hells of war, innocent civilians died, property destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, US citizens are now much more of a target then they ever were, allies and new members to join terrorism, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia to raise fear and their ratings (which make them more $$$), Karl Rove decides to attempt to get one of <i><b>our</b></i> loyal spies killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze), no apology from anyone...
</li><li>media response: Plenty of attention to the war in Iraq, ALMOST NONE on the lie or the fact that a member of the executive team</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>My question is why oh why are people so much more upset and interested in a president getting a **** than a lie which was false information that lead us into a war?</b> A War, a BJ... Hmm...
Yes we made the mess in Iraq and have a duty to fix it up now. Absolutely! Are the ends a good thing? YES! Saddam in jail & tried by the people he terrorized = goooood!!1!
...But, but, but....
Do the ends justify the means? No. They don't. And what makes me angry is that the media is not giving ANY serious attention to it. It makes me sad and furious to see that rather than cover the scandal that they should try to drive more demonizing wedges into out society! What the hell! Great so some rich executive producers decide hey let's slap liberal and conservative labels on everything.
"Great idea Bob! We can really raise out ratings by exploiting this us vs. them weakness in humans!"
"Right on Jim we are going to be $$$! I can't wait to get a new BMW SUV so I can run over starving Appalachia kids!"
"Oh Bob but our competitors might have the same plan."
"Ah those cheating commies."
"Hey I got an idea why don't we just come up with new names!"
"Brilliant! How about we make liberals blue and conservative red!"
"Ah that'll be great, that way we can color the US maps red and blue by state."
"Oh and how about left hand and right hand?"
"Nah make it wings, like an eagle
"Speaking of which I shot a eagle yesterday."
"Really?"
"Way to go!"
"Yea the buggers don't die right away you gotta walk over there an stomp on them."
"Gentlemen. Let's get back on track here."
"Oh right."
"You mean left"
[laughter]
"Seriously though why don't we make all republicans conservative."
"And democrats liberals!"
"But not all democrats are liberals, in fact many are conservatives. The major uniting factor seems to come from the labor unions"
"Jim we don't care what you have to say Bob and I are cooler than you. Republicans are all conservatives and Democrats are all liberals."
"Yeah Tom shot an eagle so he's definitely cooler than you Jim."
"Oh yeah..."
[Jim dips head in shame]
"You think the American public will really follow along with this"
"Don't be an liberal moron Jim of course they will. Americans are stupid they'll believe anything they see on the news as fact."
<i>{fin}</i>
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Ok so I was doing a comical sarcasm dialogue at the end there but I really do think it's sad and am angered when ever people don't value life or start disrespecting our soldiers and operatives. Sad sad.
So to wrap things up. Rapier7 you overreact sometimes. Chill dude. Turn of the spin of the news. Politics and religion generally are bad things to converse about because everyone has their own unique opinions. Do something positive like playing a game of NS or go outside and enjoy the weather. Cruise on down to the park and play a game of ultimate frisbee or something. Or have sex. Sex is fun. But yeah I'm wondering off topic. If the question is whether is whether or not I hate the US the answer is "No. I love the nation I live in. But I want an active role in shaping it's evolution rather than be a doormat and have some people tell me what I want and how to choose."
And 66% didn't. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just saying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy Mangled Mathematics Batman!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sun Tzu says never enter a war you can't win. Combine that with the fact that it is impossible to wage war on a crime. You don't war crime, youpolice crime. Want to defeat international crimes like terrorism or brutal dictatorships like Saddam? You need an international police force. If one nation does it, it becomes the bully. No body like a bully and believe it or not international opinion matters until the day where there are no nations because they've all united into one big global nation. Military power is great for destruction but construction is an even hard feat. Construction requires economy, effort, and time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The closest thing to an official International police force is the UN and it's Peacekeepers. The problem is, the majority of the members of the UN would rather be on the take from said tyrrants rather than allow their people access to their natural rights. The basic marching chant of the Blue Helmets is "Look the other way and everything's OK!". Unfortunately, everything is not OK.
As for the criminal aspect, how do you convict someone of being a suicide bomber?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My question is why oh why are people so much more upset and interested in a president getting a **** than a lie which was false information that lead us into a war? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you have to understand the political context of the 90's. General consensus says that life was good for the US in the 90's. Not much to complain about. Multiple reasons for this (and to argue that it was farcical) but generally speaking, all was well. In '94, Republicans took control of the House for the first time in something like 30 years. This was shellshock for the Clinton happy press. The Lewinsky scandal for the press was two things: a way to neglect Republican bills and protection of Clinton's legacy. Often cited is the loads of media time spent on the scandal but what isn't mentioned is how much of it was attempting to make the public believe "All is well". They had to report facts, but they didn't have to like it.
On the other hand, the press leading up to Iraq was being generated in a completely different context. WTC attacks, anthrax scares, Republicans controlling the Executive and both protions of the Legislative branch (and some might argue-incorrectly IMHO-the judicial), and a rise of Right Wing media all causing earthquakes in the establishment press. Pretending that media attention during the time before Saddam's fall wasn't focussed on the intelligence available at the time is a straight-up cop out. Or maybe just selective memory. What really stirs them (the establishment press) up though is their total ineffectiveness to influence Federal policy. It wasn't like that in the 8 years prior and they want their influence back.
I'm digressing. People want to believe that the government they consent to is upfront with them. Given the two contexts, people are more willing to give benefit of the doubt to a government that is actively working to protect their safety during dangerous times than one that is spending extra time giving special access to MTV.
All of this is arguable, of course, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me I'm just a shill who doesn't know anything because I disagree.
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Huh?
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/americas/04/vote_usa/map/html/default.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/amer...tml/default.stm</a>
Click on CA
Other then that I can't disagree with what you said strongly enough to type up a rebuttal. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's just that I'm sick of all these kiddies (yes, I'm 17 myself) hating the US and Bush because it's the cool thing to do. But what compounds my annoyance is the fact that these are the very people who benefit the most from the American way of life. They have the most social/financial mobility, they are financially secure, they can both be a powerful consumer and later on become a powerful industrialist/financier.
People say the country's going down the drain. I say this stuff has happened before in the past (whoever posted the Alien and Sedition acts knows what I'm talking about). Y
Most people, the vast majority of people now will say Lincoln was a great president. In his day, he suspended Habeas Corpus (protects against unlawful restraint), ignored rulings from the Supreme Court, and presided over practically a one party Congress, of which he was the leader. He was in the very essence a tyrant. Sure, a benevolent tyrant, but a tyrant nonetheless. He did all of this to maintain the strength and integrity of our Federal Union.
I can argue that Bush is doing the same thing.
Anyways...yeah.
Edit:
Oh, and for the last goddamn time, <b><i>the president does not have any control over the economy. Only Congress and the Federal Reserve do.</i></b>
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Don't compare Lincoln to Bush it makes my eyes bleed potassium.
Let’s not forget that during Lincoln’s time half our entire nation had just split away and had a pretty decent chance of beating us at first.
His presidency was by far the most unique in our history.
<i><u>President Clinton:</u></i><ul>
</li><li>great multitasker, helped economy tremendously and was very active in international diplomacy though peaceful means
</li><li>the lie: got a **** and lied about it
</li><li>the cost: 40-80 mil sperm cells, beatings from wife, daughter extremely embarrassed/nauseated & social life ruined, angry or laughing American public, international embarrassment, wasted time, ~$1mil wasted, and thankfully he had the honor to fess up and apologize for lying even though it meant career suicide, but <i>nobody died!</i> (contrast with below)
</li><li>media response: HUGE!!! WHAT A FIELD DAY! Everything from Fox & CNN exclusives for months to jokes in comedy shows like SNL.
</li></ul>&
<i><u>President Bush:</u></i><ul>
</li><li>moral man built on the foundation of the religion he follows, will do what he sets his mind to, one of the most influential global figures (I’m sure some of you are going to think of something else I could add here)
</li><li>the lie: WMD's in Iraq, took active step to silence anyone who disagreed with the shaky intelligence report, which is now most certainly was a lie
(ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads me to believe that is similar to what happened in Tom Clancy's Clear & Present Danger where the president made a suggestion and his team made it happen though I feel that Bush was more of a naive puppet and his team was acting on their own)
</li><li>the cost: <b><i>our</i></b> great soldiers died and suffer the hells of war, innocent civilians died, property destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, US citizens are now much more of a target then they ever were, allies and new members to join terrorism, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia to raise fear and their ratings (which make them more $$$), Karl Rove decides to attempt to get one of <i><b>our</b></i> loyal spies killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze), no apology from anyone...
</li><li>media response: Plenty of attention to the war in Iraq, ALMOST NONE on the lie or the fact that a member of the executive team
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That would be really damning for Bush--if it was true. Try this.
<i><u>President Clinton:</u></i><ul><li>great multitasker, sat and watched while the economy did well despite his best efforts to tax it, and was very active in international diplomacy by running away whenever military force was called for.
</li><li>the lie: got a **** and lied about it to the senate while under oath.
</li><li>the cost: 40-80 mil sperm cells, beatings from wife, daughter extremely embarrassed/nauseated & social life ruined, angry or laughing American public, international embarrassment, wasted time, ~$1mil wasted, and thankfully he had the honor to fess up and apologize for lying even though it meant career suicide, and while time was being wasted on this scandal, <i>Americans were dying in little-publicized terrorists attacks all over the world, and Al Qaeda was planning 9/11.</i>
</li><li>media response: HUGE!!! WHAT A FIELD DAY! Everything from Fox & CNN exclusives for months to jokes in comedy shows like SNL. Much of it directed at explaining why Clinton was really innocent, and everyone ought to leave him alone, but this was ineffective in preventing a government inquiry into Clinton's Perjury, which led to his impeachment and near conviction.</li></ul>Then we have...
<i><u>President Bush:</u></i><ul><li>moral man built on the foundation of the religion he follows, will do what he sets his mind to, one of the most influential global figures (I’m sure some of you are going to think of something else I could add here)
</li><li>the lie: WMD's in Iraq, which is now known to have not been a lie at all, but merely insufficient information, based on British Intelligence which is still supported by all available facts.
(ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads you to believe that someone else must have fooled him the same way they did it in a work of fiction, in order to fulfill your preconceived notions of how the government works)
</li><li>the cost: <b><i>our</i></b> great soldiers go to war to prevent our innocent civilians from dying and property from being destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, instead of a pansy who will run away at the slightest hint of resistance like before, US citizens are now much less of a target then they were up through 9/11, some allies and new members join terrorism while many others are removed, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia about Bush-conspiracy theories to raise fear but are still losing ratings (which makes them less $$$), Karl Rove tries to point out that one of our Overt CIA agents is lying to the media and is accused of attempting to get him killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze, what was that agent thinking?), no apology from anyone...
</li><li>media response: Plenty of attention on everything going wrong in the war in Iraq, ENDLESS DISCUSSION of lies that never happened</li></ul>There, thats a bit more accurate. Doesn't look quite so bad for Bush now, does it?
The thing I don't like though is the attitude of politicians. Instead of passing a bill that consists of a great idea, they would rather vote against it so the other party doesn't get credit for introducing it.
I voted for Bush. Why? Because I'm some right-wing, conservative, religious bible-basher? No, more like I took a good look at both sides of the argument and decided that I didn't want to stand alongside people like Madonna, Barbara Streisand, Michael Moore, and Talesin. People that hate President Bush just because he isn't their guy. I will say this about Michael Moore though, he is a smart businessman who, regardless of his political opinion, was able to make a boatload of cash by taking advantage of the emotions of Bush-haters.
I would be apt to vote for democrats if they had more people like Ben Affleck and Joe Piscopo(*), individuals that disagreed with the President but actually had something intelligent to say other than, "Bush is worse than Hitler." If all someone can do is sling mud, I have no use of their opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin-(Talesin)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((Talesin))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On that same line. It's funny how a war against a concept (Terrorists! guess what, moron. You can't kill an idea, and just spread it FURTHER by giving it attention. Don't think about purple hippos! Jerk.) can just keep going on and on, with the target redirecting itself any time a solution is near, to maintain a state of perpetual war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would then also be fair to say you can't make that purple hippo go away just by closing your eyes and saying there is no such thing as purple hippos. With the way things are going now, nobody wants terrorists to use their country as a safe-haven for fear of gaining negative attention of the "Big Bully." If we ignore terrorists completely, then they would be free to amass finances and new recruits. Your second point of a perpetual war is a valid one. Time will tell how long we will have to maintain our "War on Terrorism."
I almost wish Senator Kerry had won though. Just so I could stand around all day and say,"So where is this supposed Utopia?"
(*)I am basing this opinion off of their interviews during the Democratic Convention. If they express completely different opinions elsewhere, I do not know of it.
"Bush is a moron" has handily become a paraphrased argument. Saying that, rather than "I disagree with President Bush on his various stances and here's why" is simply easier to say and easier for most people to understand. A poll showed that 25% of Americans don't know who Karl Rove is. I find that horrific.
Another part of the problem is the culture. In this "with us or against us" time, things are black and white. A perfect dichotomy is excellent for political speak, even if it does exclude the possibility of nuanced views and alternate opinions. The "Bush is a fascist" and "If you don't love Bush, you hate America" views are popular because damn, it hurts my little head to have to think about complex issues. Everything is broken into two groups now. Republican and Democrat. Pro-choice or pro-life. Evil atheist or zealous christian evangelical fundie. Pro-war or anti-war. The level of actual thought has dropped significantly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and for the last goddamn time, the president does not have any control over the economy. Only Congress and the Federal Reserve do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not entirely true. The president can veto or approve the budget, which has created a large debt and effects the economy.
My views on America are far more complex than can be demostrated by a simple "yes or no." For example, I oppose the use of "God" in the pledge of allegiance and I also oppose making kids say it. In internet debate, which is actually as far from debate as you can get, I have been called myriad things, mostly negative. Perhaps the most memorable was being called a "F'ing commie ***." However, this opposition is not reflective of my overall view of America. Simply because I oppose what I consider to be an inane loyalty oath that invokes a deity I don't believe in doesn't mean that I don't care about the principles that America is founded on.
"Hating on" a particular group or locale is usually easier than explaining something in depth. I frequently like to mock the South and do so in a pretty juvenile manner. However, that doesn't mean that when pressed I can't provide some reasoning as to why I dislike the South.
You've a very reasoned stance, Finch, but the reason why I'm ranting against liberal minded people in the upper-middleclass teenager+some years demographic is because these are the people I most frequently associate with.
But what pisses me off about the type of people I'm ranting against and the different yet similar demographic that you're talking about, it's just the same level of simplification and rhetoric with no actual substance behind them. People jump onto one example and spout out rhetoric such as "The United States of Aristocrats" and then don't go any further than that, without considering every side of the issue.
I dunno, I feel like my hate fueled ranting's over. It's nice to see some people with intelligence and substance.
Everyone likes to scream "No Blood for Oil" but those people might change their tunes when getting to work in a car costs more then they earn that day. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this has to be the sickest thing ive read in a long time
If anything, our energies should be redirected towards creating the infrastructure for a new type of renewable fuel and then developing it.
Everyone likes to scream "No Blood for Oil" but those people might change their tunes when getting to work in a car costs more then they earn that day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this has to be the sickest thing ive read in a long time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it is very sick. Welcome to the nature of the beast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, lets just now start fighting for oil now that it's about to run out. How shortsighted. If America wanted to control oil it should've done it a long time ago, back when there was oil to have. Now we just attack everyone and provoke terrorism for oil - and what do we get? The crap at the bottom of the glass. Oh yea, and backwash from all those Arabs.
If anything, our energies should be redirected towards creating the infrastructure for a new type of renewable fuel and then developing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This fringes on the Peak Oil topic. The problem is that our entire infrastructure is driven by oil. While you may think that oil gives you gas, this is simply not the final case. That gas arrives in a druck that probably runs on Diesal. That truck is probably filled by pumps that run on electricity, created by the burning of oil or coal, both the oil in the pumps and the coal and oil used to run the pumps is found in the ground using airplanes and equipment produced and propelled using oil or oil derivatives, and extracted using and refined using oil based equipments and procedures. Hell, the oil drums that the crude is stored in are probably created using oil or coal based electricity. Every part of our society revolves around this stuff. Top to bottom. Without it we bleed and we die.
On this topic, my personal theory is that the middle east is the way it is today in large part due to the US and Soviet Union vying for oil in the area during the cold war. Afganistan? First we supply them to fight off the soviets, then we invade them. Oh, sure, we stopped the spread of communism, but we also stopped the soviets from gaining more of a foothold in the area and thusly attaching themselves to resources. You're simply kidding yourself if you believe that anything that's happened over there in the last few years has been started moraly, on either side.
"Wars are delcared for selfish reasons and fought for morale values."
The truth usually isn't very pleasant.
It's easy to say you would never want to go to war for oil when you have a cheap supply of oil on tap.
When your everyday life begins to become affected, even hampered by a lack of oil, or any other important resource, most people will change their opinions fairly quickly.