100% Cloak Question

puzl · August 2005

Were't we talking about 100% cloaking? Can you go create a new topic on the fall of the competitive scene DarkFrost. I'm sure you'll get the usual level of objective and insightful discussion.

Lump, Cloaking is, for the large majority of players, 100%. Most casual players don't know the non-exploititive ways of spotting cloakers and they certainly don't know the exploitative way. You are correct that partial cloaking is still effected by hardware, but players know that when they move quickly they are more visible. It isn't difficult to figure this out, you simply play a marine round against cloaked aliens. However, most beginning players expect to be invisible when they stand still, they don't expect to be uncloaked when a friendly player covers them in a spores or umbra, they don't expect to be uncloaked when they turn to look at an incoming marine. This is supported by the many queries on these forums about how players can see them when they cloak.

It is not reasonable to compare the skill advantage hardware/software tweaked running skulk vs a walking skulk.

voulge, we are equaling the playing field between alien players, not between marines and aliens. Why should one alien bemore effective at cloaking through knowledge of esoteric engine tweaks. Surely the skill gap should be gained through experience, cunning and an ability to read a situation?

And this isn't about low end hardware. My brother has a new PC with top of the line hardware and he can plainly see cloaked aliens ( in his case, it is his monitor that is the culprit ).

puzl · August 2005

Lump, a single rational voice presenting a well researched and well written argument is much more effective than a gaggle of complaints with no focus. Develop your line of reasoning and post it in the PT forum if you feel there are issues in your post we still don't understand. You just need to drop the assumptions you are making about our motivations and intentions.

Lump · August 2005

I said i wasnt going to reply but i am.. im sorry.. assumptions? where?

DarkFrost · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Aug 3 2005, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Were't we talking about 100% cloaking? Can you go create a new topic on the fall of the competitive scene DarkFrost. I'm sure you'll get the usual level of objective and insightful discussion.
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
It is a part of this discussion, it wasn't me that began talking about competitive play, I agree that this side of the game isn't dead, but I also agree that minor changes affect this side much more than the public side, this change to cloaking as I said already, will make little difference to the publics, as you said, to most people cloak is 100% as it stands now.

So therefore the debate will stand not on the open to all servers but on the passworded servers, where 5 marines are going to be up against the possibility of being completely at the mercy of 6 skulks, in the early game, with one obs just built, not enough resources to build more, and not enough energy to scan more, the need to expand, and not be seen all together, is going to make these 5 split into atleast 2 groups.

I am not saying it will be impossible to do anything against it, impossible is far to strong a word. However with the level of skulks that will be playing, its going to be a huge change to how marine play is away from public eyes.

Dismissing what I am putting infront of you by saying to make a new topic, which will only achieve multiple pages of uselessness, isn't going to change the fact that we - Europe - lost 14 clans (atleast 84 individual players, assuming the clans were at minimum strength of 6), all who were league playing clans, between 3.0's release and now, (Out of 36 clans, thats almost 50% of them) many of which have or had in their IRC topics "See you in 3.1" as although they did not want to continue playing 3.0, they have hope that 3.1 will change the problems of 3.0, whatever they may be to those individual clans, and make the game "fun" for them once again.

For someone to come here and tell you that 100% cloaking is a bad idea, is usually a pointless endevour, but when that person (not I) has been a part of every major competition in Europe for the past two years, in many forms, playing, admining and running, the same person who knows almost all the clan members in europe in some form, comes here and airs his views perhaps the pinch of salt should be held back.

Thats just a matter of opinion of course.

puzl · August 2005

From your posts I am reading that you assume we haven't considered the impact to the competitive scene. We fully understand that the demographics are different and that those who have invested a lot of time into the game will be most effected by this change. You really don't need to point that out to us. If I have read the wrong message between the lines in your post then accept my apology.

As for the change, let me put it another way.

If cloaking is currently balanced around a flawed system then the flaw has to be fixed before the system can be rebalanced.

MrBen · August 2005

How about we just remove cloaking? It worked for agora.

EDIT: Didn't we do the 100% cloak thing in early 3.0 testing? I'm pretty sure we screamed to high mercy then to let you know it was the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. Not just the fullspeed bunnyhopping whilst 100% invisible, but being 100% invisible at all. You cannot kill what you cannot see. NS isn't particulary fun when you're being rocked by invisible people sitting on a doorway. What should I do about it? Sit there and pray that my public commander has enough knowledge to scan when I ask? Scan the entire room with bullets to see if there MIGHT be a skulk? As if it isn't bad enough.

Sensory, an aliens teams answer to lack of skill.

DroneFragger · August 2005

How about you marines buy motion tracking and get the commander to ping a room before you enter it? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

there we go, now the argument is solved, lets go home...

MrBen · August 2005

If the comm's getting MT how does scan? And <b>motion</b> tracking doesn't counter cloaking 100% cloaking <b>when standing still</b>. JEEEZZZZZZ

<span style='color:gray'>Shut it.</span>

DarkFrost · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Aug 3 2005, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How about we just remove cloaking? It worked for agora.

EDIT: Didn't we do the 100% cloak thing in early 3.0 testing? I'm pretty sure we screamed to high mercy then to let you know it was the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. Not just the fullspeed bunnyhopping whilst 100% invisible, but being 100% invisible at all. You cannot kill what you cannot see. NS isn't particulary fun when you're being rocked by invisible people sitting on a doorway. What should I do about it? Sit there and pray that my public commander has enough knowledge to scan when I ask? Scan the entire room with bullets to see if there MIGHT be a skulk? As if it isn't bad enough.

Sensory, an aliens teams answer to lack of skill. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
With a lack of skill, it rewards with a few easy frags.

When the team has skill, although the vast majority of players have/will never experience this, the game is decided very early.

The marines simply cant afford to get an obs, research motion tracking, get res towers, an IP, armoury, atleast 2 welders and armslab. And still be in a position to have the midgame fight for the second hive.

Sensory first isn't taken by higher skilled clans, out of respect, not out of the chambers uselessness. As you know ben.

puzl · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Aug 3 2005, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How about we just remove cloaking? It worked for agora.

EDIT: Didn't we do the 100% cloak thing in early 3.0 testing? I'm pretty sure we screamed to high mercy then to let you know it was the worst idea in the history of bad ideas. Not just the fullspeed bunnyhopping whilst 100% invisible, but being 100% invisible at all. You cannot kill what you cannot see. NS isn't particulary fun when you're being rocked by invisible people sitting on a doorway. What should I do about it? Sit there and pray that my public commander has enough knowledge to scan when I ask? Scan the entire room with bullets to see if there MIGHT be a skulk? As if it isn't bad enough.

Sensory, an aliens teams answer to lack of skill. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yes it worked for agora, and other things.

No, we did not try 100% cloaking at any point during 3.0 development.

You can kill what you cannot see, it is just much more difficult. The question is, should players with engine tweaks see things easier than an average player. With 100% cloaking it is consistent, fair and can now be properly balanced. Cloaking has been balanced around the assumption that competitive players can detect moving cloaked aliens. Now we'll be able to balance it fairly for everyone.

Some of the options available to us have already been suggested in the PT forums, such as only allowing 100% cloaking while standing still and reverting to 3.0 cloaking when walking. Another suggestion has been to link the degree of cloaking to the number of sensory chambers, so that 100% cloaking can only be achieved with three sensory chambers. Lets wait for a few games of 3.1 before we start to make the balance calls.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Scan the entire room with bullets to see if there MIGHT be a skulk?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You have read the new hand grendade changes, haven't you?

I'm not saying they are a hard counter to cloaking, but they will help.

MrBen · August 2005

I still vote we just remove cloaking entirely. I bet i'm not the only one.

Because it's flipping boring too. Cue 2 minutes of absolute crap as you get nubbed by cloakers till you get PGs, scan put a PG in second hive. Then cue 15 minutes of annoying battles vs focus and a lerk whilst they try and get a second hive and you wait for HA. You won at 3:30, but have to **** around till 15:00 to actually be able to finish it.

puzl · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sensory first isn't taken by higher skilled clans, out of respect, not out of the chambers uselessness. As you know ben.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

So what happened in the reflect vs <3 NSI game then? Maybe I imagined the whole thing, but I saw marine strategy beat a strong SC first team.

obuh · August 2005

All balance aside, cloaking is, at best, frustrating to play against.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

puzl · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Aug 3 2005, 11:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Because it's flipping boring too. Cue 2 minutes of absolute crap as you get nubbed by cloakers till you get PGs, scan put a PG in second hive. Then cue 15 minutes of annoying battles vs focus and a lerk whilst they try and get a second hive and you wait for HA. You won at 3:30, but have to **** around till 15:00 to actually be able to finish it.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
If we removed every element of NS that contributed to the slippery slope and the delayed end game the result would be Marines vs Counter Marines.

DarkFrost · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Aug 3 2005, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sensory first isn't taken by higher skilled clans, out of respect, not out of the chambers uselessness. As you know ben.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

So what happened in the reflect vs <3 NSI game then? Maybe I imagined the whole thing, but I saw marine strategy beat a strong SC first team. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Because it's flipping boring too. Cue 2 minutes of absolute crap as you get nubbed by cloakers till you get PGs, scan put a PG in second hive. Then cue 15 minutes of annoying battles vs focus and a lerk whilst they try and get a second hive and you wait for HA. You won at 3:30, but have to **** around till 15:00 to actually be able to finish it.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I was going to point out something blatant, but its best that I don't so that this can stay civil.

MrBen · August 2005

morphz · August 2005

Shooting things you can't see is fun aswell. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

tankefugl · August 2005

Throwing insults around isn't really helping you, MrBen. Stop it.

For the rest, take a moment and consider that you will now actually have a somewhat equal playingfield when it comes to cloaking. It is no longer that dependant on drivers, the screen or the gfx card. (Or other more dodgy things.)

Imagine it like the JP/FPS issue, where better hardware would give a tremendous advantage. The real balancing could start after this was fixed. Now, we do the same with cloaking.

MrBen · August 2005

Personally I don't care about SC in competitive play. Frost is right it'll be a pain in the ****, but no one takes sensory unless they think it's their only chance of taking a round. Sensory is already a frustation chamebr to play againist. Frustating, NOT fun. I can't see cloaked aliens anyway so they might as well be 100% cloaked. But that doesn't justify making things completely invisible. That removes the last element that a lone marine had to combat sensory. There is already little to nothing a marine can do about it. In public it places total reliance on the commander, and lets face it, a majority of public commanders aren't hot to trot. In competitive NS most teams have a comm who they can rely on, so if they want a scan, they get a scan, they'll get meds when the cloaker attacks etc etc.

Cloaking is an easy upgrade to use, it requires zero skill to use (SUYF sitting above a doorway invisible isn't skill), it creates boring, long drawn out games which are won early either way it swings but ultimately takes another 10/20 minutes to finish off at least. It doesn't need fixing, it needs locking away. Permenatly. Then NS can go back to being a FPS rather than a spray and pray fest so that you may find your opponent.

puzl · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
And i'm 100% certain that we have done 100% cloaking before puzl, because of the fun testing it whilst bunnyhopping full speed across the map. Sure we're at least not doing that this time, but point is I've been there and whinned about it so you can't say you should at least play it first, because I have. It sucks.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You are 100% wrong MrBen.

In 3.0 development ( then called beta6 development ) we decided to change cloaking by starting from a very powerful cloak and working down to something more balanced. What you are referring to was the initial version which allowed players to move at full speed with the same cloaking level that they would have when walking.

Swift · August 2005

I honestly don't care about cloaking, alls i need is the poor mans scanner sweep -- teh shirtgon.

Ots · August 2005

Ots · August 2005

Lets play the damn thing and flame the devs for being arrogant bastards after that, mmkey.

MrBen · August 2005

I stand corrected on that point, puzl. My others stand. 90/95% is bad enough and hard enough to see as it is. 100% is overkill.

puzl · August 2005

To someone who doesn't tweak their system or isn't lucky enough to have the right combination of hardware and drivers, 95% is pretty much identical to 100%.

The only people this hurts significantly are those that either tweak their settings ( including the unlocking of variables we attempt to lock ), have the right hardware, or run third party tools to ramp their gamma.

Now, I wonder how many times the same point will have to be made on both sides before people get bored of this topic.

puzl · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ots @ Aug 3 2005, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Lets play the damn thing and flame the devs for being arrogant bastards after that, mmkey.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 

Lets watch how much the devs care about ignoramus who think the correct way to convince someone that their opinion is wrong is to insult them.

Lets also watch how people who flame anyone on these forums is rewarded with a temp suspension for their efforts.

MrBen · August 2005

Well what would be the best way? Should i write an essay on the effects of 100% cloaking and email you it? Do you really care? Is there truely anything we can do to change your opinion on this matter? Probably not. You've got your reasoning, we have ours, you're just the one with the power to make decisions so of course your opinion is more valid.

Ots · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Aug 3 2005, 07:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ots @ Aug 3 2005, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Lets play the damn thing and flame the devs for being arrogant bastards after that, mmkey. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Lets watch how much the devs care about ignoramus who think the correct way to convince someone that their opinion is wrong is to insult them.

Lets also watch how people who flame anyone on these forums is rewarded with a temp suspension for their efforts.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Lets be witty.

DroneFragger · August 2005

seriouly, get an obs, scan rooms with rts in. If you really wanted that rt, you'dd scan it before toyr men went in there.

This is natural selection, adapt or die, if the alines change there tactics, you need to change yours. get an obs first.

tankefugl · August 2005

I don't think this thread will become constructive, so I'll lock it.

100% Cloak Question

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