A Question That Should Make You Think
MrBananaMan
Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members
Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members
<div class="IPBDescription">about cloaking</div> why is cloaking needed in the first place? think about this to yourself. give reasons and debate them with yourself, then post here.
this particular thought has to do with 100% cloak being implemented. why do you think the dev's decided this is needed for the alien player?
something that might help your thinking, an example: so youve thought of a reason why cloaking is needed, but maybe that reason is flawedin the game itself (or on and on). that flaw would in turn make cloaking a bigger flaw. as you can guess this flaw wouldnt be obvious to everyone, so maybe you could share your reasosning.
in the example part, cloaking can be replaced with anything else in the game to try and figure out just why the game may seem unbalanced or messy.
mods or anyone with the idea that we havent played 3.1 please remember that no 3.1 playing experience is needed for these thoughts because the changes were made based on the current version.
this particular thought has to do with 100% cloak being implemented. why do you think the dev's decided this is needed for the alien player?
something that might help your thinking, an example: so youve thought of a reason why cloaking is needed, but maybe that reason is flawedin the game itself (or on and on). that flaw would in turn make cloaking a bigger flaw. as you can guess this flaw wouldnt be obvious to everyone, so maybe you could share your reasosning.
in the example part, cloaking can be replaced with anything else in the game to try and figure out just why the game may seem unbalanced or messy.
mods or anyone with the idea that we havent played 3.1 please remember that no 3.1 playing experience is needed for these thoughts because the changes were made based on the current version.
Comments
What's the purpose?
1) Cloaking = Camouflage, which is a very classic aspect of aliens (in film, books, ect) everywhere. In this sense, Cloaking is merely a simplified Camouflage ability, which would otherwise be needlessly complicated to implement when the same outcome (invisibility) would result.
2) Aliens are almost exclusively melee-range attackers, thus Cloaking makes it possible to hide/ambush in areas where it would otherwise be impossible to do so (wide open spaces, long hallways, ect.)
3) Any Marine who has played for some amount of time knows the locations of all the "best" ambush spots and/or hiding places, thus negating the one tactical advantage that skulks have.
And so on.
because its a better alternative to scorpions that hover without flapping?
i think that skulks dont have any viability towards the end of ns games where as the normal marine does.
-the normal marine is "born" with all up the upgrades it needs.
-skulks must take time to upgrade for their upgrades
-alien upgrades dont directly hinder marine upgrades besides carapace and focus.
-carapace for a skulk has almost no affect against the upgraded dmg marine. using focus to cut out more armor from a marine upgrade is always called cheap.
-marine upgrades are all passive in the sense that no human skill is required to have more armor or do more dmg with a shot
-alien upgrades are not passive in the sense that you need to learn how to use each upgrade efficiently
-marines have range
-both teams need to know how to aim.
what this means is that alien players need to become more skillful and learn how to use their upgrades where as marines do not.
cloaking for the skulk is a huge deal when dealing with the upgraded marines. it gives them that chance to get close to a marine without taking any dmg. this in turn means they stay alive longer before dying, or basically do more dmg.
im sorry if some of this seems mixed up or hard to understand. im having a hard time gettitng the main idea in my head and sticking with it today.
Upgrades, to be effective for combative units, need to a) get you as close as possible to the enemy taking the least amount of damage or b) increase your overall hitpoints.
For skulks, Celerity and Silence falls under A, Carapace falls under B and to a lesser degree Renegeration, and Cloaking falls under A. So, removing the only method for sensory that allows for being a more effective combat unit makes sensory a useless upgrade for skulks.
I'm not saying that cloaking couldn't be replaced, I'm saying that if it doesn't do A or B, it nullifies the chamber. What would be <b>cool</b> for sensory, but would probably near impossible to be implemented and ever harder to balance, would be a doppleganger upgrade. Think of arm band in Total Recall that makes a hologram of yourself to confuse the enemy. Now think of a skulk projection leading in front of you that the enemy wastes their bullets on.
If you wanna go that route, then i guess you could ask, "Is motion needed in this game?"
Cloaked knifing marines are liek pro !1
i think that skulks dont have any viability towards the end of ns games where as the normal marine does.
-the normal marine is "born" with all up the upgrades it needs.
-skulks must take time to upgrade for their upgrades
-alien upgrades dont directly hinder marine upgrades besides carapace and focus.
-carapace for a skulk has almost no affect against the upgraded dmg marine. using focus to cut out more armor from a marine upgrade is always called cheap.
-marine upgrades are all passive in the sense that no human skill is required to have more armor or do more dmg with a shot
-alien upgrades are not passive in the sense that you need to learn how to use each upgrade efficiently
-marines have range
-both teams need to know how to aim.
what this means is that alien players need to become more skillful and learn how to use their upgrades where as marines do not.
cloaking for the skulk is a huge deal when dealing with the upgraded marines. it gives them that chance to get close to a marine without taking any dmg. this in turn means they stay alive longer before dying, or basically do more dmg.
im sorry if some of this seems mixed up or hard to understand. im having a hard time gettitng the main idea in my head and sticking with it today. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything other than 100% cloak and you get "OGM G4MM4 H4X". So they need 100% cloak, because as it stands cloaking is useless in certain positions and doesn't work 100% of the time due to innumerable configurations that can or may show cloakers more readily.
Skulks in the end of NS games are really not viable in some cases. That is true. Cloaking helps with that, by giving them a boost, just like marine upgrades give them a boost.
A normal marine is "born" with their extra armor and extra dmg. Aliens upgrade theirs, no difference, that is because they are two different teams and are supposed to be perfect counters.
Skulks must select what upgrades they choose to have, not getting one upgrade is a sacrifice they make. Marines get less of a choice.
-using focus against a marine maybe called cheap but the same could be said of shotgun or HMG vs one hive fades. It isn't about being cheap, its about being effective, if the marines can upgrade to counter aliens, they should upgrade so they can deal with any threat.
-marines have range, cloaking allows an alien to get up on a marine negating the range. Albeit its slow, and you hope that you don't get pinged. Its a worthy sacrifice to force going slow.
What the change to 100% cloaking means, is that marines will have to learn to become faster reacting to sensory, and work together as a team and keep enough distance so that one skulk with a sense doesn't take out the entire gaggle of marines bunched up trying to all shoot the one skulk... and all your lines of fire are obstructed by your fellow teammates.
I think the answer he's looking for is "skulks aren't strong enough".
In my opinion (now this is the opinion of a nub who knows it, so don't go all 'ns community' on me), but in my opinion Frontiersmen are easier to play and have decided advantage over Aliens.
Even when I'm a 'rine going around corners, I hopefully have 1-3 teammates covering. Meaning that I'll die but they generally won't. That means 1 marine trades for a group of skulks who, upon respawning, must take celerity, and whatever else - and press F (which after hundreds of times, does get annoying - and I don't even use the previous weapon key [for that reason]...).
That brings up another point: I think of aliens as rogues and warriors, and 'rines as wizards.
Therefore I would think that rines would be the ones who needed to 'buff' at the beginning (buying upgrades etc) but they don't even really need to hit the armory. That seems backward to a person who's played one-too-many rpgs.
And one more thing: if it can be assumed that aliens can safely be thought of as rogues and warriors (with skulks and lerks being rogues, fades being warriors, and oni being a 'meat shield' type of warrior - throwing in Gorge as cleric of course) then the way the game is designed, you are immediately typecast into playing a rogue to start out (as skulk) needing to sneak and hide. I'm not saying this should be changed in NS, it just has always bothered me and felt increasingly restrictive, since the best mechanism skulks have (hiding/ambush) is often negated by a rine simply looking up.
These are the words of a noob. Take them as such.
Cloaked knifing marines are liek pro !1 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> on alien flash light
If you wanna go that route, then i guess you could ask, "Is motion needed in this game?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
no it would be "<i>why</i> is cloaking needed in this game"
do you understand the difference between those? not trying to be a jerk but i was trying to get across a different message.
take a look at anything in this game and ask why is it needed for some interesting thoughs.
MY BAD
As someone else stated on the first page, cloaking is much like camoflouge(sp?), but rather than worrying about different background and such, cloaking fades out the alien. The ability to remain hidden from the humans, to worry, harass, ambush, and decieve are all integral elements of the stereotypical alien monster.
Take a Xenomorph (Xenoform?) from the Alien series. Blends in with the hive resin, walks on walls, silent, and deadly.
Cloaking itself isn't nessesary, but removing it is something along the lines of removing the m4a1 and ak47 from cstrike.
I suspect that sensory will remain viable as a second chamber so long as focus works the way it currently does. Focus will remain the upgrade for fades and likely for lerks and leaping skulks. You might see a few sens first games, but I don't think that it will replace movements.
As for cloakzorz,
1. There would be no counter to motion tracking. Skulks would be forced to camp a specific spot until the marines fogot about them which means that time is being wasted, marines are completing objectives and you're a big old waste of space.
2. Cloaking lets you get up close without having to bunnyhop. It actually makes ambushing viable since most marines know where the camp spots are and will check them as they enter the room.
3. It provides a worthwhile option in place of focus. Well, not for fades or lerks really, but skulks and gorges can certainly benefit from cloak, gorges especially so.
4. Cloaking fits the feel of the game pretty well with the "attacked at any time, any place" aura.
5. 100% cloaking prevents hardware/config advantages.
<span style='color:red'>ABORT</span> <span style='color:yellow'>ABORT</span>
ABOUT TO BE BANNED
Questioning cloaking is like questioning the very foundations of NS. It's too late in the game to question it now, I mean, you must be crazy. NS is a constant parade of features and gameplay additions. Removal of something is just not permitted!
Take the hand grenade for example. I love to spawn and throw it out of my inventory slot as soon as I can, because all it does is take up space and slow me down when I want to pull out the welder.
Well instead of removing the handgrenade in the next version and replacing it with something cooler (plasma scissors, defence rockets, throwing pillows) they just beef it up.
Never do they question the validity of a feature being in the game in the first place. Lawds, oh noes.
cloaking=fun
If marines cant see you and you cloak in a group of them, waiting if anyone touches you or if they ll just run by...is one of the things i love about NS.
And to get them suddenly and without a warning ripping the whole squad into pieces is quiet funny as well...
And it makes the game diverse. And we should also be questioning why everythign is in the game.
Take the hand grenade for example. I love to spawn and throw it out of my inventory slot as soon as I can<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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Heh.
You work for the european union yea? I mean, sitting arround doing nothing, until someone walks by, then looking busy, coming up with "A bananna cannot be called a bananna if it is not of a certain curvature" and trying to place a ban on kids toys more then 3 foot high.
And if not, and thats what you find fun while playing, then mate, your missing out, go get hired by EU and earn loads doing sfa. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
cloaking=fun
If marines cant see you and you cloak in a group of them, waiting if anyone touches you or if they ll just run by...is one of the things i love about NS.
And to get them suddenly and without a warning ripping the whole squad into pieces is quiet funny as well... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But in the opinion of many I know, cloaking is not fun. Below I explain why I believe your answer is faulty.
First of all I'd say the frustration generated when you play marine is in no way negated by the extra excitement and fun when playing as a skulk.
Furthermore, cloaking promotes a game where marines grab important positions, fortify them and tech up before they push on through alien controled territory. This is opposed to the dynamic play where marines and aliens constantly switch positions and mvoe around the map to cap and destroy rts, and control as much of the map as possible. We're talking of a literary reversion from the modern chaotic warfare to a ww1 type trench warfare.
So while I agree that in itself it is fun to play as a cloaked skulk, having the marines at your mercy, waiting for the right moment to strike and feel the adrenaline rushing while you push the marine into a corner and get the three required bites in, the fact that I myself have to play marine against the same makes me... more than hesitant.
Anyway, this was somewhat off topic, I just felt I had to make the point. Making points is fun. Especially points about cloaking.
Why? No good player use cloak anyway.
Why? No good player use cloak anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah yeah...blah...im not a good player whatever...
And i still use cloaking since it is way better than focus/sof for skulks...
And guess what...i usually end up with pretty nice scores if we get 3 early scs and im able to use cloaking...
Fooling those MTteched Marines by simply holding down +speed pretty often owns them to a point where i get scores to zero...
oh and now tell me "blah noob public server, pcws are a lot better"...
for me cloaking is by far the best upgrade this chamber provides for Skulks! And it also seems to work out.
ok well im asking <i>why</i> that is. you guys arent digging deep enough. this is an example response i was looking for:
marines are very strong at long range and it is hard to ambush when you can be seen from far away, and skulks have very little hp. cloaking is needed to give skulks the chance to bypass the long range of marines.
in that statement you have stated a game mechanic (marines do dmg at long range) and reason for the cloaking (get skulks close to marines without dying).
i wasnt looking for a response like : cloaking is needed because aliens can camouflage and its fun.
or
aliens cloak because it seems right and blends in with alien type stuff.
cloaking is good because Marines cant see you!
happy?