Nice, Kouji. I would consider a different texture for the ceiling struts, just to highlight the point where the slope meets the flat ceiling; or else use lighting to accentuate the angles somehow. I'm not very fond of the ultra sharp angle outside of the view window, perhaps it's just me but such stark pointy angles don't really suit NS in my opinion (or, well, any game for that matter). It could work, but with the rather flimsy size of the strut, it looks awkard to me.
Otherwise, it's looking good! More contrast is needed with the lighting I think, but that's been established already.
I stumbled across some screenshots of mine for the NS tutorial map (version 2) I was working on years ago. Since I doubt it'll ever make it into a released .bsp in any form, I may as well post it up!
The idea was that the readyroom would display a great level grandoseness to represent the achievements of humankind & the TSA, with warm welcoming colours to greet new players. The team joins would be at the far end, opening up with some fancy particle effects and spewing out bright light, into the room (with some trickery of the engine or another).
And then, after some words of guidance from our missed Nem Zero (who is still around it seems but I think it's just a trick), which went as thus...
<b>Nemesis Zero</b><i> # It might be my expectations formed by your mock-up, but my first thoughts were that it lacks a vertical component that adds a little more 'height' to the whole affair. # On the topic of grandness, it might be worth a shot to retract the walls between the pillars a bit to create shadowy alcoves. # I like the texturing style so far, but please don't go overboard with the wall_labs smile-fix.gif</i>
Which I think is much better! So thanks again Nem0 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
And then finally there was the viewing port behind the player's start, intended just as a bit of visual fun. The style was never embraced by any of the dev team and so instead it went into ns_machina for a bit, until I took it out of there after an early major rehaul.
I was very pleased with the style of this, but its somewhat threatening nature was deemed a bit too....well, threatening, to be part of the tutorial RR. Most likely I was influenced by Half-Life 2's <a href="http://www.mod-hq.com/hl2news2/375.jpg" target="_blank">combine walls</a> for this window, though not conciously. I'm shocked that HL2 was already out when I made this RR; can you believe HL2 has been around since late 2004? It still feels so recent! (Maybe because theres yet a FPS game to come out that can top it, IMO: disregarding episode 1)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Ok, my turn to say WOW <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
However I'm not sure about this, but perhaps also compile the first and second screenshots once more.
shot1: lightbluish or white light textures on that bottom trim where those yellow rectangles (on the textures) area
shot2: With lightblueish light textures on the bottom of them pillars.
I think it would look nicer. It has that "too much yellow look" now. Not sure if blue or white would make it look better, but it never hurts to try <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Hehe I totally agree; I think I had a thing for orange at the time, which you can see in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads//post-63-1117580415.jpg" target="_blank">this shot of the tutorial MS</a>. Although I was conciously trying to keep the same warmth as the RR, looking back on it I can see it's way too saturated in both pictures and a bit more diversity would have been welcome. There's enough warmth up in the rafters that it isn't really needed down below, and actually makes that grey metal texture on the lower pillars look garish. Perhaps it isn't -too- bad, but as you say, there's definately room for improvement.
Jeeeeeezzzzzz ! Thank you Nemesis Zero for this iteration. Not only i agree that the second one looks better, but i appreciate among all so much when i can compare two different versions <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
And here the first version was already very nice so it let me understand also how much it may be difficult for a mapper to sweep that and replace it by another one. Thx Merkaba for granting Nem Zero advice, and for letting us watch these two versions from the same angleshot.
(The two black squares are where the team joins would be).
I thought people might be interested in seeing how I arrived at the above pics, and to show that, on occasion, I actually know the meaning of research. And plagiarism.
Oh god I just love to see merkaba posting these wonderfull shots of his maps <3. By the looks of those screens I think you should make the map official, the atmosphere is just awesome. MS looks like the best one I've seen so far ect... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
How long does making a map take because all I've seen from you is hera and machina. It's sad, because id like to see more official maps from you with those crazy rooms.
It depends, really. I was at university for most of the time machina was in the works, and generally I didn't work on it very much at all but then would spend a couple of months working on it again. I think the time from conceptual start to beta release for machina is 2 years. Hera took a lot less time, but still took longer than I would like.
The biggest problem I have, which slows down my mapping, is deciding that an area isn't satisfactory for the map and then scrapping them, and starting another one. I have a fair number of started rooms for machina, at least 10 (ranging from small to huge), that never made it into the final version. Some of them looked fine, but wouldn't fit into the layout anywhere. Some of them just looked crap, and got deleted on that principle. Some of them weren't as good as I had intended for whatever reason, and were redone. 'The Pit', for example, was originally far far too cramped to be any good - it looked good in my head, but actually walking through it, I knew it would be a nightmare for marines and wouldn't offer any fun gameplay (not that I'm convinced it has fun gameplay now, but it's certainly better than it was!).
I'm going to make a thread some time with some old machina .bsps and screenshots, with an explaination behind each one if appropiate. There's a hell of a lot of stuff that's changed over the course of its development, and I think it might be interesting for other mappers to see glimpses of the path it took to arrive at its current form. If not, well, it'll be useful for me anyway.
ns_hera also went through many iterations. Originally it was HUGE, then it was smaller, then it was TINY (Flayra challenged me to make a mini-hera about 5 hours before a playtest...it was quite fun, but had some big problems), then it just kinda settled into place how it is now.
As far as room tweaking goes, I think an average sized room takes me 3 evenings (3/4 hrs work each night) to detail to a sufficient level of quality. Sometimes just 2 evenings, sometimes more. The hardest part is coming up with something that I know will stick - once a design has fallen into its 'groove', everything is pretty easy peasy from then on; just touching it up, tweaking proportions, playing with lighting, etc. It's just finding a design that I'm happy with & don't feel like changing that is the really frustrating part. Usually I'll have a big vague idea of what I want, and I'll try different ways of achieving it.
I'm having trouble with Northern Shell in ns_machina because I don't think it's ever fallen into its groove...but in the next update there'll be a change that makes the area feel a bit less frustrating to navigate. I don't think I'll ever be happy with it - that area of the map has been through THREE different designs now. The current one is the best, and perhaps I should be happy with it the way it is. My design specification for that area is, quite simply, "Pipey". Pipes pipes pipes, blocking view, providing cover, making it look somewhat chaotic and organic. Pipes. That is Routing/Northern Shell in a nutshell, as far as my brain-blueprint goes.
I can tell you exactly how long it took me to make the changes Nem0 suggested to the tutorial RR.
Nems post time: May 5 2005, 07:31 PM Time I uploaded the modifications: May 5 2005, 08:12 PM
So, 40 minutes or so. I think I remember being in a work hungry mood at the time, so I probably spent the entirety of the time in Hammer.
[edit] Oh, and the reason you've only seen ns_hera dn ns_machina is that, aside from a TFC skills map and some Doom2 maps I made ages ago, those are the only two full maps I have ever completed & released. If you have TFC installed, you can check out my 'concmap', <a href="http://pixel.valve-erc.com/review.php?id=148" target="_blank">concquest_r</a> - link leads to a review that is somewhat unforgiving in the fact that it's a challenging concmap and the reviewer couldn't conc for s"£$. My Doom2 maps (actually Doom2 & Hexen) were a pack that I submitted to PC Gamer UK back in the mid 90s, which ended up on one of their cover CDs. They were Dethcom5.wad, wthdtfg.wad (where the hell did the floor go.wad), among some others...Dethcom5 was the major one, with 6 small DM levels in it. If you have Doom2 I can send it to you; it's even got a demo in it of me playing against my neighbour <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
i remember seeing screens of machina long long ago.. i think u had an ftp up somewhere with lots of screens that i checked out when u first started on machina. love the map though.
<!--QuoteBegin-merkaba+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(merkaba)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I thought people might be interested in seeing how I arrived at the above pics, and to show that, on occasion, I actually know the meaning of research. And plagiarism. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plagiarism is tempting isn't it. Like I'm totally influenced by machina now. I look at my map for the contest and feel sick with the lack of imagination (ooh, right angles! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> ). I bet I'll go into hammer and create something really machina-esque and you'll all hate me with this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> wangry smiley. And I'll burn under the laser heat from your furrowed brows.
But then, I've never had an original thought in my life when it comes to mapping so... no changes there!
It's really cool to see the process merkaba. You should consider doing it as a blog entry for the NS blog (if pos) rather than a forum post. It would make it more outstanding.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Do'h! I didn't realise the first and second screenshots were initial-->improved version... The blueish lighting thingy still stands though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Certainly I don't think the window was in a proper NS style, but the rest of the readyroom I thought was a good start for introducing players to NS & its grand universe. Since NS is still a developing world, I'm quite happy to explore new things and not feel tied down by any particular style; so long as it looks sci-fiish and not like anything else. I don't think making the RR look like NS-in-a-bag was a huge priority either; mostly it was to make new players feel intruiged by what might be around the corner, so to speak. So, the tall intimidating style with warm lighting was intended to make people go "oooo", while not making them feel uncomfortable, anxious, or apathetic due to cold lighting and 'ho-hum' visuals.
I'd have liked to put in mores pipes/wires etc to fleshen out the look of the RR at some point, mind. Unfortunately, we never got that far in our tutorial design (and we had a lot of planning for it too, especially from Nem0 who had planned out pretty much every lesson to be taught and the order. Oh well eh...I guess it all adds up as experience points) and the MS was the only thing I did aside from the RR before the whole project faded away.
Merkaba maybe you can share a little map-layout strategy with us? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I'm kinda interested in which map layouts gives great gameplay. If you look the the map layout for eclipse made by KungFuSquirrel you see that the corridors are longer and broader around the marine-start and very small and claustrophobic around the eclipse-hive (the one in the middle). Also it looks like he starts making symmetric corridor systems and then after that breaks the symmetry to make the rooms more interesting. Is that something you think of when mapping?
Layouts are my weakest link. I consider it a left-brain process, thus calculated and logical, which I am not so good at - perhaps due to a lack of experience actually playing NS. With machina, I was so un-willing to put a lot of effort into the layout at first that I basically based it on the <a href="http://www.acc.umu.se/~stradh/magick/Qabalah/Achad/Figures/fig19.gif" target="_blank">Qabalah</a>. I used that diagram not for any mystic or occult purposes, just simply because I enjoy that sort of thing and the layout of it is rather like an NS map to begin with:) I toyed with the idea of trying to instil some sort of connection between each area in the map and its respective <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefirot" target="_blank">Sephiroth</a> (Thanks to Alan Moore for the technical name of that doodad), but somewhere along its ridiculously long development time I just lost interest and started focusing on just getting the map done. Still, had I not done all that it would have ended up a different map...it may have been a better map; who knows.
So, basically my layout cycle went:
Tree of life -> Redesign connections to suit NS gameplay -> PT (a year or more ago)
Result = Map was too huge (too 'tall'), so I cut out a horizontal section near the bottom. Rethough layout, removed connections, added connections...I rarely thought of it in terms of corridor sizes and such; machina is nearly completely art-driven, with considerations to gameplay always being there but never being as routinely scrutinised as the artwork. Generally, I figured out where a corridor needed to go, and then tried to think of how to make that corridor interesting in gameplay & art. I don't think there's much I can teach about layout theory & design because I was never very confident with it. Perhaps you can learn from me what <i>not</i> to do <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The best way I think is just to play NS over and over, and take special note of what you like in maps and what you don't like. Abstract the map down in your head until its reduced to its bare minimum components, like corridors and time taken to get from A to B, vent locations, threatening environments vs secure ones etc.
Personally I think the reason eclipse works well is that the corridors and rooms are easy to navigate, easy to see where you are, where you can go, how to get to where you need to go (with the exception of double-backing vents), and for the most part bright lighting with architecture that isn't distracting nor providing tons of cover to creative aliens.
Anyone else want to add anything about layouts (or critique my observations, which I am still not confident with)? Cos I would love to hear it myself.
Long post ahoy! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I think Machina works well as eye-candy and there is an extremely high level of immersion, but the layout is overly complex for a game as complex as NS. If NS were more deathmatchy it wouldn't be a problem, but if I were recommending a newb NS player on which maps to play on to get the hang of things, it definitely wouldn't be Machina.
The there are quite a few reasons for the layout being complex. In many cases, there is no clear distinction between what constitutes a corridor and what is a room. Corridors are so stylised that when you first boot up the map EVERYTHING grabs your attention at once and you don't come out of the experience with a clear recollection of the key areas of the map. I remembered the main route down the middle, and the Hive I started in and the rooms either side of it, and then everything gets patchy.
This is probably to do with the interconnected layout. With so many routes you don't retread the same path often enough, so you don't remember it and end up getting lost instead of helping your players and, most importantly, learning the map layout for the next time it comes on. Areas also tend to 'bleed' into eachother using similarly coloured textures (often many routes converging in a large room), which is again a source of information overload.
The darkness also doesn't help distinguish areas from eachother. It can also be a bit misleading: some dark areas lead to vents, some to dead ends, and others to death! When you're playing as an Alien and you don't have a flashlight to help you out, it can be a bit frustrating.
There are quite a few lifts and doors that block sight between areas. The only reason this is bad is that it stops you from knowing where you're going to end up. And I can't help but feel if they were marked on the minimap (even if only as double white lines) it would help matters because most of the doors and elevators are memorable in their own right.
Finally the rooms often lack clear function, and the naming scheme doesn't shed any light on any function you have meant for them to have. "Cargo bay" and "Ventilation" are clichés in NS but not without good reason: they usually go hand in hand with the main visual features of the room so when you refer to your minimap you recall the layout of the room and know where you're headed and where you need to go from there. I'm not suggesting you change what the rooms look like, but "Imine Falls" and "Angel's Grave" don't conjure up images that relate to the places they represent on the minimap. Tau Ceti is a good example of how a name fits the description of an area.
---
As far as making a good NS layout, this is probably the hardest game to map for I know of. I'd tend to ignore corridors and focus on getting well-balanced Hives and an MS. Since these are the key areas, it only makes sense to begin with these and then alter everything else around them. Imo you should never build your Hive or MS around the corridors leading into it, the focus should always be on it being easily defensible for Aliens (and if possible as hard to attack as Aliens as it is for Marines).
Once you have the key areas done, play around with some rough layouts on paper /in paint, or maybe work on a few more feature rooms to be used for res nodes. Imo res nodes form the second tier of importance in an NS map, so should take precedence over corridors (although there is more room for comprimise if you want to make a style-over-content decision). For these try to give them a clear purpose or sense of character, and then think of a name for it that fits its design. You should be able to give someone a set of screenshots from your map (+ the layout) and the list of location names and have them match the name to the place without too much trouble on their part.
You may or may not have access to a community of players who will help you test your map at this stage, but to stress-test the map I'd suggest the following: - For each Hive and the MS build a box corridor for each entrance you have that leads to a temporary spawn room. If you're testing a Hive fill these box rooms with Marine spawn points, if it's an MS fill it with Alien spawn points. - Make sure all the corridors are the same length so it takes roughly the same amount of time to reach the Hive/MS from any given temporary spawn location. - Make 3 (or more, depending on how many exits you have from your Hive/MS) versions of the map. One with reinforcing attackers ONLY from entrance #1, another with reinforcing attackers ONLY from entrance #2, and a third with reinforcing attackers from BOTH sides. - Rename the maps (if necessary) to make it load in combat mode. - Use cheats to setup varied scenarios to make sure the Hive/MS scales well and isn't seriously unbalanced at a later stage of the game (e.g. Fades vs. HMGs, Onos vs. JP, GL spawn camp, Shotgun rush vs. Skulks)
- Now make a new version and have an experienced commander set up a small defensive outpost (Phasegate + elec defence or Tfact and Turrets) in the Hives and have Aliens attack (again, use different scenarios, but don't allow the commander to spend too much res on the outpost defences).
This sort of testing will identify any major problems you have with your Hives and allow you to alter them before they become more-or-less set in stone. It also lets you focus on completing core areas and getting your map played (which is a good morale booster for any mapper).
It seems like a lot of work, but in reality it boils down to 2-3 hours playtesting. You shouldn't really need to spend any more than 10 mins on any given scenario for you to assess the pros/cons. Try to get people to run demos as well (especially if it's their first time on the map) so you can pick up on problem areas.
Later on you can repeat this sort of testing as you start making the corridors that connect to the Hive and test the siege locations.
I'm not saying any of this is gospel, but this is just personally how I'd do it because I've seen far too many maps that are perfect except for crappy Hive rooms that the mapper will never want to tear down and redesign once they're in a 'finished' state. Even if you don't go for the whole 'playtesting' model and just go on instinct alone, I still think working from the most important areas out is the best option for a game that revolves around the Hives and structures to be found in the Hive rooms (and the 'rine base at MS).
Great post Crispy, I think I'll have to read through that again a few times <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Wow, some good reading in here! A couple things that have run through my mind:
I quite like that readyroom Merkaba. I tried to do something similar, though by different means with a readyroom from an old map I made a couple years ago. I based it on the geometry of a <a href="http://www.unbc.ca/assets/about/campus/building_tours/student_street.jpg" target="_blank">building at my university</a> although <a href="http://web.unbc.ca/~derksons/mapping/nadirRR.jpg" target="_blank">my implementation</a> didn't end up nearly as good as I hoped. I could do a heckuva nicer job now. (The first thing, among <i>many</i>, I would do is like what you did, and increase the vertical exaggeration of the geometry.) But basically, I was simply looking at the architecture of it and realized that despite the buildings curved appearance, it was all triangles and flat pieces, and a few drawings on some graph paper later, I had the basic structure fleshed out in my head.
Going into gameplay...
In regards to eclipse, I'm sure people have noticed before, is that it's downhill from MS to the hives. I think having a consistent up/down can help people navigate a map. One complaint I've heard about ns_shiva during 3.1 related to the ms - steam connection. Most of the map is down hill, but this area has you going up and down on ladders, and while I thought it was great, it was confusing to this person. I see in 3.2 it's been flattened somewhat.
Anyway, this train of thought led me to a question: How to make a map look amazing, have complexity and yet be navigateable for those who are new?
One thought I've had is to have primary routes easily marked. Give users lines to follow. A path on the ground. Railings of some sort to nudge users in the direction <i>you</i> want them to go. If an area is dark, put light in the direction they should go toward. The eye will grab onto that light, and a new player will naturally want to go into it so they can get their bearings. This is where contrast lighting can be used most effectively. Always give them a clear idea of where they need to go. A primary route would be like the front door to a hive. If there is a little chicane around a corner to get to a back entrance, make that one darker than the other to discourage the new player from going that direction.
One example could be in the "pit" of machina in 3.1 (so could very well be out of date now but bear with me!).
You go down the elevator, walk in, look around and see what looks like a major entrance down below. I think this was why I ended in mausoleum hive instead of tau ceti a couple times (though I'm only realizing this now as I think about it.) Going to tau ceti hive from the pit seems like an excercise in walking around with the map open. See, my best bet was likely going through the airlock/double doors thing... but again, closed doors aren't the most inviting compared to a hallway. I'm thinking that if the door is at the end of a hallway, with no other option, then it'll be "aha, there is a door here I need to open" but in a room with multiple passageways and one "closed" a person could walk right past and not even notice the closed route. On the other side of the map, you have no choice but to open the fancy door if you want to get directly to angels grave. (And a sign indicating that there is a lift wouldn't be a bad idea since you can't always see the lift when it's around the corner.)
Umm... hmm... I've gone off tangent now... where was I?
Hmm... layouts... I think having a simple layout to begin with is a great idea. Myself I've been working on a layout sort based on a <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Triforce.svg/200px-Triforce.svg.png" target="_blank">triforce</a> to obtain an equal distance from each hive and the MS. What I need to do is start implementing it one day. Starting a map from scratch is always so daunting, and what I have on paper is simple lines that don't translate into a good map. (I need to think about cover, vis blockers, atmosphere, texturing style, lighting, etc) Mind you, Crispy raises a good train of thought of working from the hives/ms out. So far, my mapping attempts have been from one room out.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2007
Just a WTH has kouji been up to these last few hours XD
old VS new (spotlight on chairs to be added)
OLD: <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/co_cerberus/bridge.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> NEW, upscaled by 1.5 - white light from port (sun), red light from starboard (planet Nerva): <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/co_cerberus/bridge3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<a href="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/co_cerberus/" target="_blank">Some other areas</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1600286:date=Jan 20 2007, 03:20 AM:name=chubbysteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chubbysteve @ Jan 20 2007, 03:20 AM) [snapback]1600286[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> good improvements Kouji! Floating chair in new bridge shot! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they're attached to the computer consoles... i cant believe u missed that >_<
oh you're talking about the second screenie... i just saw that xD
<!--quoteo(post=1601220:date=Jan 23 2007, 01:29 PM:name=Spawn_of_Chaos97)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Spawn_of_Chaos97 @ Jan 23 2007, 01:29 PM) [snapback]1601220[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> umm...hellooooooo, NS is set in a time where humans can create gravity, who says they can't banish it with point sources too?
hmm.. good point, but what of the plausability of using that technology in such a confinded area for relatively little gain? i think they wouldn't do it just because of cost and maintenance.. heh. i'm going way too in-depth for this.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1603330:date=Feb 1 2007, 03:34 PM:name=Kittamaru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kittamaru @ Feb 1 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]1603330[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> upscale? *scratches head* <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> By selecting the area and increasing the size by 1.5. Using the transform tool. Only problem is that once you've done this you have to check all the vertexes to see if they are locked on the grid. But you don't have to recreate/retexture the area with this method, so it can save time. Just make sure the area isn't at final stage of development (more detail) or you end up with checking many vertexes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
My latest version of co_moira is pretty much on the home stretch now. She's feature locked, minor tweaking only, and hopefully only one more full compile away from certain doom. I mean release. Also, I hope to include whichbot waypoints as well right from the get go, but we'll see how that goes.
Comments
Otherwise, it's looking good! More contrast is needed with the lighting I think, but that's been established already.
I stumbled across some screenshots of mine for the NS tutorial map (version 2) I was working on years ago. Since I doubt it'll ever make it into a released .bsp in any form, I may as well post it up!
The idea was that the readyroom would display a great level grandoseness to represent the achievements of humankind & the TSA, with warm welcoming colours to greet new players. The team joins would be at the far end, opening up with some fancy particle effects and spewing out bright light, into the room (with some trickery of the engine or another).
First iteration:
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads//post-63-1115319881.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
And then, after some words of guidance from our missed Nem Zero (who is still around it seems but I think it's just a trick), which went as thus...
<b>Nemesis Zero</b><i>
# It might be my expectations formed by your mock-up, but my first thoughts were that it lacks a vertical component that adds a little more 'height' to the whole affair.
# On the topic of grandness, it might be worth a shot to retract the walls between the pillars a bit to create shadowy alcoves.
# I like the texturing style so far, but please don't go overboard with the wall_labs smile-fix.gif</i>
...I ended up with this iteration.
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads//post-63-1115323973.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Which I think is much better! So thanks again Nem0 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
And then finally there was the viewing port behind the player's start, intended just as a bit of visual fun. The style was never embraced by any of the dev team and so instead it went into ns_machina for a bit, until I took it out of there after an early major rehaul.
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads//post-63-1115341747.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I was very pleased with the style of this, but its somewhat threatening nature was deemed a bit too....well, threatening, to be part of the tutorial RR. Most likely I was influenced by Half-Life 2's <a href="http://www.mod-hq.com/hl2news2/375.jpg" target="_blank">combine walls</a> for this window, though not conciously. I'm shocked that HL2 was already out when I made this RR; can you believe HL2 has been around since late 2004? It still feels so recent! (Maybe because theres yet a FPS game to come out that can top it, IMO: disregarding episode 1)
However I'm not sure about this, but perhaps also compile the first and second screenshots once more.
shot1:
lightbluish or white light textures on that bottom trim where those yellow rectangles (on the textures) area
shot2:
With lightblueish light textures on the bottom of them pillars.
I think it would look nicer. It has that "too much yellow look" now. Not sure if blue or white would make it look better, but it never hurts to try <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
That is rather sexy merk.
/me secretly steals the architecture for ns_attrition
Awesome screenshots dude. I would really like to see those in a completed map.
I drop to my knees in worship.
And here the first version was already very nice so it let me understand also how much it may be difficult for a mapper to sweep that and replace it by another one. Thx Merkaba for granting Nem Zero advice, and for letting us watch these two versions from the same angleshot.
I remember doing a google image search for things like "entrance", "atrium" "entrance hallway" to see what came up.
Turns out it was "Entrance Hall", and what came up was this:
<img src="http://www.arttowermito.or.jp/Tower/pic/entrance-hall.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I saw that and thought, gee, that looks pretty!
So, then I tweaked the picture in my favourite art program to arrive at a more NSy style look, and ended up with this:
<img src="http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5237/tutcollagemk6.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
(The two black squares are where the team joins would be).
I thought people might be interested in seeing how I arrived at the above pics, and to show that, on occasion, I actually know the meaning of research. And plagiarism.
Incidently, geometry rules you. And me.
How long does making a map take because all I've seen from you is hera and machina. It's sad, because id like to see more official maps from you with those crazy rooms.
The biggest problem I have, which slows down my mapping, is deciding that an area isn't satisfactory for the map and then scrapping them, and starting another one. I have a fair number of started rooms for machina, at least 10 (ranging from small to huge), that never made it into the final version. Some of them looked fine, but wouldn't fit into the layout anywhere. Some of them just looked crap, and got deleted on that principle. Some of them weren't as good as I had intended for whatever reason, and were redone. 'The Pit', for example, was originally far far too cramped to be any good - it looked good in my head, but actually walking through it, I knew it would be a nightmare for marines and wouldn't offer any fun gameplay (not that I'm convinced it has fun gameplay now, but it's certainly better than it was!).
I'm going to make a thread some time with some old machina .bsps and screenshots, with an explaination behind each one if appropiate. There's a hell of a lot of stuff that's changed over the course of its development, and I think it might be interesting for other mappers to see glimpses of the path it took to arrive at its current form. If not, well, it'll be useful for me anyway.
ns_hera also went through many iterations. Originally it was HUGE, then it was smaller, then it was TINY (Flayra challenged me to make a mini-hera about 5 hours before a playtest...it was quite fun, but had some big problems), then it just kinda settled into place how it is now.
As far as room tweaking goes, I think an average sized room takes me 3 evenings (3/4 hrs work each night) to detail to a sufficient level of quality. Sometimes just 2 evenings, sometimes more. The hardest part is coming up with something that I know will stick - once a design has fallen into its 'groove', everything is pretty easy peasy from then on; just touching it up, tweaking proportions, playing with lighting, etc. It's just finding a design that I'm happy with & don't feel like changing that is the really frustrating part. Usually I'll have a big vague idea of what I want, and I'll try different ways of achieving it.
I'm having trouble with Northern Shell in ns_machina because I don't think it's ever fallen into its groove...but in the next update there'll be a change that makes the area feel a bit less frustrating to navigate. I don't think I'll ever be happy with it - that area of the map has been through THREE different designs now. The current one is the best, and perhaps I should be happy with it the way it is. My design specification for that area is, quite simply, "Pipey". Pipes pipes pipes, blocking view, providing cover, making it look somewhat chaotic and organic. Pipes. That is Routing/Northern Shell in a nutshell, as far as my brain-blueprint goes.
I can tell you exactly how long it took me to make the changes Nem0 suggested to the tutorial RR.
Nems post time: May 5 2005, 07:31 PM
Time I uploaded the modifications: May 5 2005, 08:12 PM
So, 40 minutes or so. I think I remember being in a work hungry mood at the time, so I probably spent the entirety of the time in Hammer.
[edit]
Oh, and the reason you've only seen ns_hera dn ns_machina is that, aside from a TFC skills map and some Doom2 maps I made ages ago, those are the only two full maps I have ever completed & released. If you have TFC installed, you can check out my 'concmap', <a href="http://pixel.valve-erc.com/review.php?id=148" target="_blank">concquest_r</a> - link leads to a review that is somewhat unforgiving in the fact that it's a challenging concmap and the reviewer couldn't conc for s"£$. My Doom2 maps (actually Doom2 & Hexen) were a pack that I submitted to PC Gamer UK back in the mid 90s, which ended up on one of their cover CDs. They were Dethcom5.wad, wthdtfg.wad (where the hell did the floor go.wad), among some others...Dethcom5 was the major one, with 6 small DM levels in it. If you have Doom2 I can send it to you; it's even got a demo in it of me playing against my neighbour <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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Plagiarism is tempting isn't it. Like I'm totally influenced by machina now. I look at my map for the contest and feel sick with the lack of imagination (ooh, right angles! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> ). I bet I'll go into hammer and create something really machina-esque and you'll all hate me with this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> wangry smiley. And I'll burn under the laser heat from your furrowed brows.
But then, I've never had an original thought in my life when it comes to mapping so... no changes there!
It's really cool to see the process merkaba. You should consider doing it as a blog entry for the NS blog (if pos) rather than a forum post. It would make it more outstanding.
I'd have liked to put in mores pipes/wires etc to fleshen out the look of the RR at some point, mind. Unfortunately, we never got that far in our tutorial design (and we had a lot of planning for it too, especially from Nem0 who had planned out pretty much every lesson to be taught and the order. Oh well eh...I guess it all adds up as experience points) and the MS was the only thing I did aside from the RR before the whole project faded away.
I'm kinda interested in which map layouts gives great gameplay. If you look the the map layout for eclipse made by KungFuSquirrel you see that the corridors are longer and broader around the marine-start and very small and claustrophobic around the eclipse-hive (the one in the middle). Also it looks like he starts making symmetric corridor systems and then after that breaks the symmetry to make the rooms more interesting.
Is that something you think of when mapping?
So, basically my layout cycle went:
Tree of life -> Redesign connections to suit NS gameplay -> PT (a year or more ago)
Result = Map was too huge (too 'tall'), so I cut out a horizontal section near the bottom. Rethough layout, removed connections, added connections...I rarely thought of it in terms of corridor sizes and such; machina is nearly completely art-driven, with considerations to gameplay always being there but never being as routinely scrutinised as the artwork. Generally, I figured out where a corridor needed to go, and then tried to think of how to make that corridor interesting in gameplay & art. I don't think there's much I can teach about layout theory & design because I was never very confident with it. Perhaps you can learn from me what <i>not</i> to do <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The best way I think is just to play NS over and over, and take special note of what you like in maps and what you don't like. Abstract the map down in your head until its reduced to its bare minimum components, like corridors and time taken to get from A to B, vent locations, threatening environments vs secure ones etc.
Personally I think the reason eclipse works well is that the corridors and rooms are easy to navigate, easy to see where you are, where you can go, how to get to where you need to go (with the exception of double-backing vents), and for the most part bright lighting with architecture that isn't distracting nor providing tons of cover to creative aliens.
Anyone else want to add anything about layouts (or critique my observations, which I am still not confident with)? Cos I would love to hear it myself.
I think Machina works well as eye-candy and there is an extremely high level of immersion, but the layout is overly complex for a game as complex as NS. If NS were more deathmatchy it wouldn't be a problem, but if I were recommending a newb NS player on which maps to play on to get the hang of things, it definitely wouldn't be Machina.
The there are quite a few reasons for the layout being complex. In many cases, there is no clear distinction between what constitutes a corridor and what is a room. Corridors are so stylised that when you first boot up the map EVERYTHING grabs your attention at once and you don't come out of the experience with a clear recollection of the key areas of the map. I remembered the main route down the middle, and the Hive I started in and the rooms either side of it, and then everything gets patchy.
This is probably to do with the interconnected layout. With so many routes you don't retread the same path often enough, so you don't remember it and end up getting lost instead of helping your players and, most importantly, learning the map layout for the next time it comes on. Areas also tend to 'bleed' into eachother using similarly coloured textures (often many routes converging in a large room), which is again a source of information overload.
The darkness also doesn't help distinguish areas from eachother. It can also be a bit misleading: some dark areas lead to vents, some to dead ends, and others to death! When you're playing as an Alien and you don't have a flashlight to help you out, it can be a bit frustrating.
There are quite a few lifts and doors that block sight between areas. The only reason this is bad is that it stops you from knowing where you're going to end up. And I can't help but feel if they were marked on the minimap (even if only as double white lines) it would help matters because most of the doors and elevators are memorable in their own right.
Finally the rooms often lack clear function, and the naming scheme doesn't shed any light on any function you have meant for them to have. "Cargo bay" and "Ventilation" are clichés in NS but not without good reason: they usually go hand in hand with the main visual features of the room so when you refer to your minimap you recall the layout of the room and know where you're headed and where you need to go from there. I'm not suggesting you change what the rooms look like, but "Imine Falls" and "Angel's Grave" don't conjure up images that relate to the places they represent on the minimap. Tau Ceti is a good example of how a name fits the description of an area.
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As far as making a good NS layout, this is probably the hardest game to map for I know of. I'd tend to ignore corridors and focus on getting well-balanced Hives and an MS. Since these are the key areas, it only makes sense to begin with these and then alter everything else around them. Imo you should never build your Hive or MS around the corridors leading into it, the focus should always be on it being easily defensible for Aliens (and if possible as hard to attack as Aliens as it is for Marines).
Once you have the key areas done, play around with some rough layouts on paper /in paint, or maybe work on a few more feature rooms to be used for res nodes. Imo res nodes form the second tier of importance in an NS map, so should take precedence over corridors (although there is more room for comprimise if you want to make a style-over-content decision). For these try to give them a clear purpose or sense of character, and then think of a name for it that fits its design. You should be able to give someone a set of screenshots from your map (+ the layout) and the list of location names and have them match the name to the place without too much trouble on their part.
You may or may not have access to a community of players who will help you test your map at this stage, but to stress-test the map I'd suggest the following:
- For each Hive and the MS build a box corridor for each entrance you have that leads to a temporary spawn room. If you're testing a Hive fill these box rooms with Marine spawn points, if it's an MS fill it with Alien spawn points.
- Make sure all the corridors are the same length so it takes roughly the same amount of time to reach the Hive/MS from any given temporary spawn location.
- Make 3 (or more, depending on how many exits you have from your Hive/MS) versions of the map. One with reinforcing attackers ONLY from entrance #1, another with reinforcing attackers ONLY from entrance #2, and a third with reinforcing attackers from BOTH sides.
- Rename the maps (if necessary) to make it load in combat mode.
- Use cheats to setup varied scenarios to make sure the Hive/MS scales well and isn't seriously unbalanced at a later stage of the game (e.g. Fades vs. HMGs, Onos vs. JP, GL spawn camp, Shotgun rush vs. Skulks)
- Now make a new version and have an experienced commander set up a small defensive outpost (Phasegate + elec defence or Tfact and Turrets) in the Hives and have Aliens attack (again, use different scenarios, but don't allow the commander to spend too much res on the outpost defences).
This sort of testing will identify any major problems you have with your Hives and allow you to alter them before they become more-or-less set in stone. It also lets you focus on completing core areas and getting your map played (which is a good morale booster for any mapper).
It seems like a lot of work, but in reality it boils down to 2-3 hours playtesting. You shouldn't really need to spend any more than 10 mins on any given scenario for you to assess the pros/cons. Try to get people to run demos as well (especially if it's their first time on the map) so you can pick up on problem areas.
Later on you can repeat this sort of testing as you start making the corridors that connect to the Hive and test the siege locations.
I'm not saying any of this is gospel, but this is just personally how I'd do it because I've seen far too many maps that are perfect except for crappy Hive rooms that the mapper will never want to tear down and redesign once they're in a 'finished' state. Even if you don't go for the whole 'playtesting' model and just go on instinct alone, I still think working from the most important areas out is the best option for a game that revolves around the Hives and structures to be found in the Hive rooms (and the 'rine base at MS).
I love bad jokes.
I quite like that readyroom Merkaba. I tried to do something similar, though by different means with a readyroom from an old map I made a couple years ago. I based it on the geometry of a <a href="http://www.unbc.ca/assets/about/campus/building_tours/student_street.jpg" target="_blank">building at my university</a> although <a href="http://web.unbc.ca/~derksons/mapping/nadirRR.jpg" target="_blank">my implementation</a> didn't end up nearly as good as I hoped. I could do a heckuva nicer job now. (The first thing, among <i>many</i>, I would do is like what you did, and increase the vertical exaggeration of the geometry.) But basically, I was simply looking at the architecture of it and realized that despite the buildings curved appearance, it was all triangles and flat pieces, and a few drawings on some graph paper later, I had the basic structure fleshed out in my head.
Going into gameplay...
In regards to eclipse, I'm sure people have noticed before, is that it's downhill from MS to the hives. I think having a consistent up/down can help people navigate a map. One complaint I've heard about ns_shiva during 3.1 related to the ms - steam connection. Most of the map is down hill, but this area has you going up and down on ladders, and while I thought it was great, it was confusing to this person. I see in 3.2 it's been flattened somewhat.
Anyway, this train of thought led me to a question: How to make a map look amazing, have complexity and yet be navigateable for those who are new?
One thought I've had is to have primary routes easily marked. Give users lines to follow. A path on the ground. Railings of some sort to nudge users in the direction <i>you</i> want them to go. If an area is dark, put light in the direction they should go toward. The eye will grab onto that light, and a new player will naturally want to go into it so they can get their bearings. This is where contrast lighting can be used most effectively. Always give them a clear idea of where they need to go. A primary route would be like the front door to a hive. If there is a little chicane around a corner to get to a back entrance, make that one darker than the other to discourage the new player from going that direction.
One example could be in the "pit" of machina in 3.1 (so could very well be out of date now but bear with me!).
You go down the elevator, walk in, look around and see what looks like a major entrance down below. I think this was why I ended in mausoleum hive instead of tau ceti a couple times (though I'm only realizing this now as I think about it.) Going to tau ceti hive from the pit seems like an excercise in walking around with the map open. See, my best bet was likely going through the airlock/double doors thing... but again, closed doors aren't the most inviting compared to a hallway. I'm thinking that if the door is at the end of a hallway, with no other option, then it'll be "aha, there is a door here I need to open" but in a room with multiple passageways and one "closed" a person could walk right past and not even notice the closed route. On the other side of the map, you have no choice but to open the fancy door if you want to get directly to angels grave. (And a sign indicating that there is a lift wouldn't be a bad idea since you can't always see the lift when it's around the corner.)
Umm... hmm... I've gone off tangent now... where was I?
Hmm... layouts... I think having a simple layout to begin with is a great idea. Myself I've been working on a layout sort based on a <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Triforce.svg/200px-Triforce.svg.png" target="_blank">triforce</a> to obtain an equal distance from each hive and the MS. What I need to do is start implementing it one day. Starting a map from scratch is always so daunting, and what I have on paper is simple lines that don't translate into a good map. (I need to think about cover, vis blockers, atmosphere, texturing style, lighting, etc) Mind you, Crispy raises a good train of thought of working from the hives/ms out. So far, my mapping attempts have been from one room out.
old VS new (spotlight on chairs to be added)
OLD:
<img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/co_cerberus/bridge.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
NEW, upscaled by 1.5 - white light from port (sun), red light from starboard (planet Nerva):
<img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/co_cerberus/bridge3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<a href="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/co_cerberus/" target="_blank">Some other areas</a>
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>OUTDATED POST</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> --> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=5534153747887099904&act=st&f=4&t=100289&st=0#entry1604318" target="_blank"><b>cerberus thread</b></a>
good improvements Kouji! Floating chair in new bridge shot!
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they're attached to the computer consoles... i cant believe u missed that >_<
oh you're talking about the second screenie... i just saw that xD
OR
nanites!!!
Nice pics, Kouji.
umm...hellooooooo, NS is set in a time where humans can create gravity, who says they can't banish it with point sources too?
Nice pics, Kouji.
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hmm.. good point, but what of the plausability of using that technology in such a confinded area for relatively little gain? i think they wouldn't do it just because of cost and maintenance.. heh. i'm going way too in-depth for this.
upscale? *scratches head*
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By selecting the area and increasing the size by 1.5. Using the transform tool. Only problem is that once you've done this you have to check all the vertexes to see if they are locked on the grid. But you don't have to recreate/retexture the area with this method, so it can save time. Just make sure the area isn't at final stage of development (more detail) or you end up with checking many vertexes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Also, I hope to include whichbot waypoints as well right from the get go, but we'll see how that goes.
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/d_moiralayer.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/d_moirahive2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/d_moirapit.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/d_moiraatrium.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />