The New Fade

Kittamaru

<div class="IPBDescription">True Stealth Ninja</div>FADE:
Same model as now
Stats:
150 HP
100 AP
Speed: 1.5x current

Attacks:
Slash: 15 dmg, .half second RoF per claw
Blink: Fade "disappears and reappears" at anothe location via bactieral telekinesis. Able to teleport thru players, walls, and buildings inside the map.
Metabolize: same as is now
Swipe: 100 damage x2 claws, 0 to buildings, 1/2 to HA. 5 second RoF. Not affected by Focus.

Special: when hiding in the shadows (eg, not moving for more than 2 seconds excluding turning the head and in a shadow) the fade is able to "blend" in with the darkness, rending it all but invisible and allowing to launch a deadly stealth attack.

This makes the fade a truely specialized hit n run kind of guy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

Skydancer

15 dmg slash? Lol? You'd need 3 seconds of slashing to kill a lvl 0 armor marine, and that if all slashes connect <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

im_lost

At 15 damage per swipe, you're not doing much better than parasiting the marine, and it's a lot more risky than sporing the marine. That blink seems like a headache to code as well, I can't imagine making something that lets a player go through walls without getting lots of people stuck in the walls (outside the map, blinking to the readyroom).

Kittamaru

it's 15 dmg a slash per claw mates with alternating swipes.

Eg, left, right, left right. Each claw takes .5 second to refire, so a .25 second refire overall.

im_lost

So if they stand around for a second set of swipes, they will still do less damage than a skulk bite. And they will probably die if they do that, so they are doing 30 damage per attack (why isn't this a single 30 damage swipe?). Spore still seems better at damaging marines, and using this swipe to kill a structure seems almost as painfully slow as using lerk spikes back when they were still in the game. This could be worthwhile I guess if it's cheaper than a lerk, since it can do 30 damage and run away, but it isn't very scary.

Petco

About the older blink, even if it wasn't buggy(not getting stuck in walls or objects), it's still worse than the current blink.

It'll be much harder to control the teleporting blink, you may not teleport close enough to the marine, or may teleport farther than the marine. It's also<i>(like im lost said)</i> really hard to code, to make sure you don't get stuck in walls, and so on.


Although the current Acid Rocket isn't a great range(only 25 damage), it's still a range weapon.

Aliens lack much range weapon, but when it's needed, Acid Rocket works great. Examples of uses for acid rockets: Harassing/Distracting marines, clearing a room with some turrets, getting marines in hard-to-reach spots.

Right now, fade is a good hit-n-run already.

Kittamaru

Yeah, you have a point. Let's boost that up to 20 dmg per claw per swipe, so 80 dmg every second if all 4 swipes (at 1 swipe ever 1/4 second) hit.

I mainly want the fade to become absolutely fearsome at 3 hives.

vms

will die in a second vs a cata shotgun ;(
its not going to be able to hold back a rush on the second hive at all, not even with backup from the rest of the team.(i just have to assume gameplay is exactly the same in ns:s)
and as said the blink is a real problem :x

Kittamaru

Fades shouldn't be the meattanks they are now. I've seen fades withstand 5 lvl 3 sg shots point blank. That shouldn't happen. They shoul hit hard and be feeble. In it's place, make the Onos as fearsome as it was in NS 1.04, replacing the pitifuly stupid stomp with the wonderful Paralyze, letting it affect Jetpackers as well. This way it takes some aim to use and is easier yet harder to avoid.

vms

<!--quoteo(post=1566946:date=Sep 19 2006, 04:55 PM:name=Kittamaru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kittamaru @ Sep 19 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1566946[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Fades shouldn't be the meattanks they are now. I've seen fades withstand 5 lvl 3 sg shots point blank. That shouldn't happen.
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thats more of an issue with carapace/reg than the fade itself i think

im_lost

<!--quoteo(post=1566946:date=Sep 19 2006, 02:55 PM:name=Kittamaru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kittamaru @ Sep 19 2006, 02:55 PM) [snapback]1566946[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades shouldn't be the meattanks they are now.
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Then reduce their health, not the damage they do.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In it's place, make the Onos as fearsome as it was in NS 1.04<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos was fearsome in 1.04 because 1) it told you that the aliens had 3 hives and 2) all the hitboxes were screwed up, and no one knew where to shoot it at. I think the onos would need to have around 2500/2000 hp to be that scary now.

Underwhelmed

Fades AREN'T meattanks. It takes about 3 lev 2 blasts to kill one without carapace, which is the majority of the time. A group of attentive marines armed with shotguns can easily repel a fade.

Petco

<!--quoteo(post=1566960:date=Sep 19 2006, 03:58 PM:name=im_lost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Sep 19 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]1566960[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Then reduce their health, not the damage they do.
The onos was fearsome in 1.04 because 1) it told you that the aliens had 3 hives and 2) all the hitboxes were screwed up, and no one knew where to shoot it at. I think the onos would need to have around 2500/2000 hp to be that scary now.
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That is true, I mean you had to hit the Onos by its side to actually deal any damage. Onos were feared back in the 1.04 days, but aliens had to have all three hives to have an Onos(res strictions). It was marines' job to prevent them from getting all three hives.


<!--quoteo(post=1566961:date=Sep 19 2006, 03:59 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Sep 19 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]1566961[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Fades AREN'T meattanks. It takes about 3 lev 2 blasts to kill one without carapace, which is the majority of the time. A group of attentive marines armed with shotguns can easily repel a fade.
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That is also true. The reason you may think they're meat tanks is because they blink at you, swipe, blink back(hit-n-run), metabolize/heal, then repeat.

You'll need to focus your shots on one fade.


No alien is a meat tank, aliens are mainly hit-n-run type. The bigger the alien you are, the more marines will notice you and shoot you. So the big aliens, which cost quite a bit of resources, have to play it safe or they may lose all the resources they've spent.

Marines, however, don't really have problems with losing things. HAs, and Jetpackers have to be careful, but marines can pick up any weapon a marine drops when they get killed. So the res is recycled, and marines won't have to worry too much about dying sometimes.

Also because only a jetpacker can really hit-n-run. Marines can only really stick together and just rush at the aliens.




<b>Back on topic(about the new fade)</b>. <!--QuoteBegin-Kittamaru+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kittamaru)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, you have a point. Let's boost that up to 20 dmg per claw per swipe, so 80 dmg every second if all 4 swipes (at 1 swipe ever 1/4 second) hit.

I mainly want the fade to become absolutely fearsome at 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

According to this <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/comm_manual/basic/alienClasses.htm" target="_blank">manual</a>
Swipe has a rate of fire of 1.1 seconds. So your multihit <b>slash</b> is almost exactly the same thing as the current swipe.

I believe the current swipe(80 damage per 1.1 second), is better at hit-n-run. You want to focus on just landing one hit, then running back. When you're hitting multiple times, it may be tough to focus on getting all 4 hits in. When you see the weapon model swinging 4 times per second, you'll have a hard time seeing what is going on in your screen.

This is the alien's "weapon recoil". It's actually easier to aim at things, when nothing is blocking your screen or distracting you. I've had personal experience of this myself, there used to be a bug that made certain marine weapons "red"(their icon was red), and their weapon models didn't move. It was so much easier to aim and kill aliens. It's obvious that the weapon animation gets in your view.

Another thing, if they do have knockback, it'll be tough to hit marines. Since they'll keep flying out the way when you hit them.

Sometimes, knock backs help marines. Some marines may want to jump back slightly, then get hit by a bite or swipe, then they'll fly backwards to evade alien attacks. This is a skill marine players perform to get away from aliens.

About the new <b>swipe</b>(<i>according to the topic creator, the new swipe is the 4th slot one, and the 1st slot is replaced by slash, which I talked about above</i>), it's again much weaker than what it was orginally.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Swipe: 100 damage x2 claws, 0 to buildings, 1/2 to HA. 5 second RoF. Not affected by Focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I get this right, you swipe twice every 5 seconds. That means 100 damage every 2.5 seconds, opposed to the current swipe that does 80 damage every 1.1 seconds. With the <b>current swipe</b>, you'll deal approx 181 damage every 2.5 seconds.

Also you've made it deal zero damage to structures, and half to HAs. That means that it's weaker than the current swipe.

I've talked about the teleport-blink being weaker than the current blink, due to mainly the teleport-blink being uncontrolable. You can't fully control the blink teleport, you may teleport too far from the marine, or teleport into a shotgun blast. It's really hard to control the blink teleport, assuming it's like the 1.0X blink without the glitches and bugs(with getting stuck in objects).

You've lowered the fade's health and armor significately in your suggestion.

<b>Overall summary of my post:</b> Basically, your suggestion is <b>nerfing</b> the Fade. It'll nerf it significately, I don't think you intended for a weaker Fade according to your posts in this topic.

Edit: Typoes and errors again... 95% of my posts are always edited at one time or another. So you'll rarely see me never edit my posts, because I don't really proof read my posts until after they're created.

im_lost

<!--QuoteBegin-Petco+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Petco)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit: Typoes and errors again... 95% of my posts are always edited at one time or another. So you'll rarely see me never edit my posts, because I don't really proof read my posts until after they're created.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet I'm always able to find typos in your posts after seeing that edit message.

Petco

<!--quoteo(post=1567107:date=Sep 20 2006, 02:14 PM:name=im_lost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Sep 20 2006, 02:14 PM) [snapback]1567107[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
And yet I'm always able to find typos in your posts after seeing that edit message.
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I mean "proof read" as in, if I see any errors/typoes, I'll correct the ones that I see.

I just read through my post quickly to find any errors/typos, then fix them.

As long as you, the reader, understand what I'm saying(<i>least what I'm trying to say</i>), it's fine.

Edit: BTW, I don't always know how to spell words.

MrMakaveli

I see nothing wrong with the fade as it is right now. To everyone who thinks acid rocket is underpowered: Acid rocket, if anything, is overpowered. The fade can sit back and constantly acid rocket you, constantly retreating around corners as you chase him. There's really nothing you can do against it. You either hold your ground and protect whatever it is you're trying to protect (and slowly die from the acid), or just kamikaze at the fade trying to get him away or kill him or something. Also, acid rocket used in conjunction with swipes is extremely effective. Blink in, swipe the marine with focus, fly up in the air, throw a couple acids, meta, fly back and swipe again. You can also use it when you are too weak to fly in, and you are metabolizing. Just sit back and meta your health back, all the while throwing acid rockets from safety.

The main issue I see with fades is that they are extremely... "overpowered" with carapace. I absolutely love how much skill fades take, and carapace really removes much of that skill required. If you blink into a shotgun marine, and make some sort of mistake, allowing him to get 4-5 solid shots off on you, you really should die. A person who doesn't know how to fade who has carapace can survive in situations where he really shouldn't. Now give a skilled fade carapace, and he's damn near invincible.


Now that I'm on the subject, I honestly feel carapace should simply be removed. I'm sitting here thinking how to put into words "why" I think it should, but I can't really come up with any logical arguments. I just feel that it upsets the game too much, and aliens who make mistakes still get out alive.

Underwhelmed

<!--quoteo(post=1567278:date=Sep 21 2006, 03:31 PM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Sep 21 2006, 03:31 PM) [snapback]1567278[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
makaveli do you ever play on aliens in pubs? :rolleyes:
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Probably not, but he does play as aliens in matches where marines can actually aim.

Kittamaru

make the onos fierce and the fade less so- atm, the fade is more usefull and more used than an onos. A single good fade can obliterate an entire marine team, especially in combat (which is, unfortunately, the more played gametype atm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> )

MrMakaveli

The onos is very useful. It just so happens that fades are useful in nearly every sitatuation, where onoses are only useful in some situations. Onoses are absolutely a MUST in some situations, though.

Petco

I see it as the Onos is better for HA marines, while the fade is better for jetpackers.

I don't really see carapace being overpowered, it just takes a little more team effort to kill the fade. Redeem is the same way, infact(concerning redeem) I see that as better than carapace (In NS:Classic anyway).


Acid rocket used to deal 50 damage per hit(but twice the energy cost), it was nerfed because it was actually pretty strong.

I see the current Acid Rocket as "at least they have range", but I don't see it anywhere near overpowered.



Once the aliens have three hives, the game should be in the aliens favor in most cases. The fact that you have to have acid rocket at 3 hives makes it less useful.