Wowowow

Swiftspear

<div class="IPBDescription">Valve just killed competitive CSS</div>For those of you who have been hiding under rocks from steam news, valve just released a brand new pricing system for CSS's weapons. Basically, rather then manually rebalancing the weapon pricing, they decided to plug it into an algorithm that automatically does it. <a href="http://steampowered.com/stats/csmarket/algorithm.html" target="_blank">More information</a>

While on the surface this may seem like it could be a good idea, just below the surface you would find that this really is a very bad idea, well, at least in the way it is implemented. As many of you know here at the natural selection community, competitive play != public play. Firstly, it's a HUGE spit in the face of competitive CSS for valve to make this move that is VERY clearly stating that they are rebalancing the game based almost exclusively off of how public players play. Secondly, how the hell are you supposed to run a fair seasonal league when the game is being rebalanced every week? Small changes are big differences to competitive players, you're basically giving them a game that is entirely different to play every week. Thirdly, there is no way to turn it off, it's embedded into the server and there are no cvars to use backup figures, and while it's plausible that a plugin will be coded to fix the situation, it's a major spit in the face that competitive play will REQUIRE a plugin that is yet to be coded when it could VERY easily be coded into a server cvar.

Overall I must say this one thing, valve still really doesn't get it. While I had alot of respect for them as a development team before I saw this I really can't help but wonder what exactly is going on in the minds behind the business back there now...

Epidemic

Are competive "pro" players really that different from the rest? I mean arent they just using colts and Aks mostly as well? And please clarify how you cant run a seasonal game, you would have to adapt, but so would the other team you're facing. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Swiftspear

You don't join CAL CS to play competitive "adapt to random rule changes", you join CAL CS to play competitive CS. In any other competitive sport in existence you don't change the rules before every game, you change the rules between seasons. There is a very good reason for this you'd frankly have to be somewhat daft to not realize.

Competitive play isn't about adapting, it's about perfecting.

chanuk

<!--quoteo(post=1567552:date=Sep 23 2006, 08:30 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 23 2006, 08:30 AM) [snapback]1567552[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
You don't join CAL CS to play competitive "adapt to random rule changes", you join CAL CS to play competitive CS. In any other competitive sport in existence you don't change the rules before every game, you change the rules between seasons. There is a very good reason for this you'd frankly have to be somewhat daft to not realize.

Competitive play isn't about adapting, it's about perfecting.
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Agreed. When I first saw this I was kinda shocked.

So is this goign to effect the CAL CS:S this season? Or will it be applied afterwards?

Swiftspear

AFAIK they applied it already, so unless CAL gets a plugin implemented to remove it's effects there's nothing they can do about it for the time being.

Garet_Jax

I play CS:S competitively and I like this weapons market. Fed up of only using AK/M4/AWP.

Epidemic

<!--quoteo(post=1567552:date=Sep 23 2006, 01:30 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 23 2006, 01:30 AM) [snapback]1567552[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
You don't join CAL CS to play competitive "adapt to random rule changes", you join CAL CS to play competitive CS. In any other competitive sport in existence you don't change the rules before every game, you change the rules between seasons. There is a very good reason for this you'd frankly have to be somewhat daft to not realize.

Competitive play isn't about adapting, it's about perfecting.
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It seems like it will settle down eventually to a semi-fixed price , anyway, lets wait and see if the sky will fall down.

Marik_Steele

I'm glad Valve coded the feature in--now I don't have to. I was planning on making supply & demand my first-ever publicly released serverside plugin, because I felt it was sorely needed in CS for the reason Garet_Jax just stated above.

And yes, I agree prices are likely to settle down to a stable enough level that competitive players will have little to no reason for complaining.

I'm just hoping that the all-too-many servers running fy_iceworld and similar won't affect weapon prices on servers where I want to play with "real" maps

Alcapwn

This hardly effects the competetive playerbase...

...valve stated that the first round (The Pistol round) would be unaffected by the changes specifically for comptetetive players because of balance reasons. After the first found, then the changes take place.

im_lost

<!--quoteo(post=1567562:date=Sep 23 2006, 07:26 AM:name=Marik_Steele)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marik_Steele @ Sep 23 2006, 07:26 AM) [snapback]1567562[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just hoping that the all-too-many servers running fy_iceworld and similar won't affect weapon prices on servers where I want to play with "real" maps
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I haven't played CS in about 3 and a half years, but that's a map where all the weapons start out on the map, right? This feature is only supposed to take into account weapons that are purchased, or so it says, so those maps would have no impact.

Gliss

everyone, let's just hop on a listen server and then buy nothing but aks and colts until they all cost 16k :DDD

CplDavis

like what someone said in the css forums.


Just wait until kevlar get so high you need to take out a second mortgage on your house.

Same for nades. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />

Alcapwn

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like what someone said in the css forums.
Just wait until kevlar get so high you need to take out a second mortgage on your house.

Same for nades. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
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Im sure they will have some sort of cap on the price.

EDIT- And there going to be a Cvar too enable/disable the dynamic pricing. So the competetive players can have the old CSS, and the rest can have the new CSS.

Problem solved.

ChimpZealot

I love the concept, but it really doesn't belong in a game that is played at such a highly competitive level. However, I think the reason they didn't add a cvar is because (judging by how gaming communities overreact) almost no one would end up using the dynamic pricing.

Alcapwn

<!--quoteo(post=1567658:date=Sep 23 2006, 11:23 PM:name=ChimpZealot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimpZealot @ Sep 23 2006, 11:23 PM) [snapback]1567658[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I love the concept, but it really doesn't belong in a game that is played at such a highly competitive level. However, I think the reason they didn't add a cvar is because (judging by how gaming communities overreact) almost no one would end up using the dynamic pricing.
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Read the post above yours kthx.

TheDestroyer

So, like, if theres no one who buys an AWP or whatever while this is going on, does that mean its going to be dirt cheap? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Swiftspear

<!--quoteo(post=1567558:date=Sep 23 2006, 08:42 AM:name=Garet_Jax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Garet_Jax @ Sep 23 2006, 08:42 AM) [snapback]1567558[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I play CS:S competitively and I like this weapons market. Fed up of only using AK/M4/AWP.
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I have no real problem with having the weapon prices changed an rebalancing the game as such, the problem is that they won't remain static from one match to another, so you MAJORLY dumb down the buy and economy strats that competitive CS teams use alot.

I don't think the CS:S leaguers would be too against seeing where the algorithm takes the game and then using algorithm derived buy figures, but most likely the would fix to one figure at the begining of each season and play through the season using that league promoted figure until the next season comes around. Even better they could allow the league to run a mini version of the algorithm on match servers.

puzl

The values won't change that much from week to week, once they reach equilibrium. Players know the real value of a piece of equipment and will not pay much above the fair price for that weapon. Within a few weeks of this change, things will settle down and competitive CS:S will be much stronger for having all equipment priced fairly. I expect in the end, teams will have to work their way from pistols through cheap but relatively ineffective weapons ( e.g. mp5 ) until they can afford an ak or m4.

As long as both teams play to the same rules, it'll be fine. And the teams that are truely good at CS, who can adapt on the fly to changing strategies, will continue to dominate the game.

TychoCelchuuu

There's a server variable you can set to determine if you want the old static prices or the new dynamic ones. Problem solved.

Josheh

I moved from NS to CSS competitive play and these changes shocked me, servers with 16k startmoney
are going to screw this up royaly. Has there been any official word from valve about a cvar? I havnt seen any

If I played this game from a pubbing view I was be all for the changes it would add a new level of fun to the game. But as I play this competitively I dont :/

I can see it now: "All right boys how much cash you got?"

"5k"

"Ok, deagle rush B!"

Alcapwn

<!--quoteo(post=1567775:date=Sep 24 2006, 07:38 PM:name=Josheh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Josheh @ Sep 24 2006, 07:38 PM) [snapback]1567775[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I moved from NS to CSS competitive play and these changes shocked me, servers with 16k startmoney
are going to screw this up royaly. Has there been any official word from valve about a cvar? I havnt seen any

If I played this game from a pubbing view I was be all for the changes it would add a new level of fun to the game. But as I play this competitively I dont :/

I can see it now: "All right boys how much cash you got?"

"5k"

"Ok, deagle rush B!"
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Valve has said that there is a cvar that enables/disables the feature.

Darkns

So much for reading through the thread before you post...

UltimaGecko

Despite the semblences of equilibrium, it really seems like this may be an unstable economy. Inevitably there will be far more MP5s and such purchased than AKs or M4s...but then the MP5 price will skyrocket...and so the AKs/M4s will be cheap, and people will use those, so the MP5 will become dirt cheap, so the people will start buying the MP5...


(Of course, this implies that people will want to replace their pistols as soon as they can)


Not that I really play CS:S that much, but I see some see-sawing prices in the future.

Nurot

<!--quoteo(post=1567745:date=Sep 24 2006, 03:05 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 24 2006, 03:05 PM) [snapback]1567745[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
There's a server variable you can set to determine if you want the old static prices or the new dynamic ones. Problem solved.
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What he said, "mp_dynamicpricing 0" hence this is a non issue, but I actually like the play for public play keeps the real newbs and their guns at bay. Huzzah for only being able to use one gun and hide at spawn.

viper

How can you kill competetive play on CS?

I mean - you buy guns, kill other people, win rounds and get more money to buy better guns next round. If you lose, you get less money and crapper guns. Now unless they have made the guns a ridiculous price, that formula is damn near inpossible to kill in a competetive environment.

I'd seriously have a hard time making it non-competetive.

I know they're trying to tweak it to perfection, but they will never satisfy the die-hard 1.6 fans.

puzl

<!--quoteo(post=1567819:date=Sep 25 2006, 07:46 AM:name=UltimaGecko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UltimaGecko @ Sep 25 2006, 07:46 AM) [snapback]1567819[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Despite the semblences of equilibrium, it really seems like this may be an unstable economy. Inevitably there will be far more MP5s and such purchased than AKs or M4s...but then the MP5 price will skyrocket...and so the AKs/M4s will be cheap, and people will use those, so the MP5 will become dirt cheap, so the people will start buying the MP5...
(Of course, this implies that people will want to replace their pistols as soon as they can)
Not that I really play CS:S that much, but I see some see-sawing prices in the future.
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Well, systems with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback_loop" target="_blank">negative feedback</a> tend towards equilibrium, and systems with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback" target="_blank">positive feedback </a>tend to oscillate. Negative feedback, by definition, is the process by which a system modifies to the input to reverse the direction of change.

The system valve have implimented is negative feedback. Increasing demand on a weapon will cause the price of that weapon to increase resulting in a reduction of the demand for it. I'm sure it won't be perfect at first, but they should be able to tweak the feedback so that the system varies very little once stability has been reached. Of course, if some clever clans figure out a more efficient disposal of their income and this strategy gains acceptance amongst the wider CS community, then the prices will start to shift as the strategy starts to become common.

BlackMage

i think the problem is cs
get rid of cs, get rid of the problem!

Spacer

Lets all play Q2CTF instead. HOORAY.

Petco

<!--quoteo(post=1567858:date=Sep 25 2006, 09:07 AM:name=viper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(viper @ Sep 25 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]1567858[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
How can you kill competetive play on CS?

I mean - you buy guns, kill other people, win rounds and get more money to buy better guns next round. If you lose, you get less money and crapper guns. Now unless they have made the guns a ridiculous price, that formula is damn near inpossible to kill in a competetive environment.

I'd seriously have a hard time making it non-competetive.

I know they're trying to tweak it to perfection, but they will never satisfy the die-hard 1.6 fans.
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I agree, I don't really see much of a change.



I'm pretty good at pub CS, but never ever watched a competitive match in CS(Maybe I should when I'm bored).

All I see is: 1. Buy gun 2. Find players 3. Crouch 4. Aim for head 5. Left click before the other person left click 6. Get a kill.

Some guns do less/more damage than others with less/more recoil, and less/more ammo, but it seems nearly the same with all guns.

Underwhelmed

I'm just going to lol because I am amused that people will have to use a pistol other than the deagle.

puzl

You can track the weapons market on the steam website:

<a href="http://steampowered.com/stats/csmarket/" target="_blank">http://steampowered.com/stats/csmarket/</a>