North Korea

Mantrid

<div class="IPBDescription">We are all so screwed</div>So, North Korea tested a nuke the other day. This does not bode well for the rest of the world.

Discuss.

Testament

Old news.

Depot

With 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea vs 1,000,000 North Korean troops, our ###### is grass.

On the other hand, North Korea is one of only 8 nations with nuclear weapons.... ... .. .

ANeM

So.. Uh..
I'm glad Western Canada is relatively unpopulated in comparison to other areas of the continent <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I like my Global Thermonuclear War confined to games.

Not to be a fearmongerer.. but to quote Zefrank "And thats not funny, just scary as hell."

Testament

I live on Vancouver Island. I hope Vancouver is insignificant... or the wind is blowing east.

TychoCelchuuu

Hah, you guys all thought DEFCON was a game. It's just a statistical analysis program developed and released by DARPA to forecast the likely outcome of the imminent global thermonuclear showdown.

Merkaba

I fancy the only reason they tested a nuclear weapon was because everyone was saying they couldn't. It's just Kim Jong-il going "screw you guys" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Well, that's just a theory...my friend thinks that the recent issue where a missile was launched toward Japan was basically Jong-il "throwing a toy out of his pram", and my theory is in the same vein of humour :]

tigersmith

<!--quoteo(post=1569508:date=Oct 9 2006, 09:22 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 9 2006, 09:22 PM) [snapback]1569508[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Hah, you guys all thought DEFCON was a game. It's just a statistical analysis program developed and released by DARPA to forecast the likely outcome of the imminent global thermonuclear showdown. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

yo i love that game!

Scythe

*** Moved to discussion ***

--Scythe--

TheDestroyer

I THINK I read that China, one of N. Korea's pals, agreed with Japan and most other world powers in saying "no sir."

Even with nukes, I wouldn't want to be a smaller country and defy something like China, which is it's northern boarder. 1.3 billion people is not a force you should mess with when your maximum force can only be 22 million.

Stakhanov

More importantly , China is the only support North Korea can count on. If they can't , then their situation is barely better than Irak - there would be nobody to keep the US at bay. They will have to obey China's will - it is more critical to their survival than strategic missiles. I wouldn't worry too much , so long that the US diplomacy adapts itself to China's. If trouble happens , you will know who to blame for it...

Shockeh

My view:

A deeply paranoid country with an unpredictable aggressive leader has nuclear weapons! Oh wait...

Renegade

<!--quoteo(post=1569499:date=Oct 9 2006, 05:12 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 9 2006, 05:12 PM) [snapback]1569499[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
With 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea vs 1,000,000 North Korean troops, our ###### is grass.

On the other hand, North Korea is one of only 8 nations with nuclear weapons.... ... .. .
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Our troops (and I'm including the SK troops here) > their troops. But I hope this doesn't come to war; the first one didn't turn out so great, and it'll probably be a primarily infantry-based war, which means yours truly will likely have to start learning Korean in the not-so-distant future. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1569549:date=Oct 10 2006, 06:50 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Oct 10 2006, 06:50 AM) [snapback]1569549[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
My view:

A deeply paranoid country with an unpredictable aggressive leader has nuclear weapons! Oh wait...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The key difference you're missing is that half our citizens actually hate our president and his "unpredicitible, aggressive" ways.

In North Korea, the citizens know nothing but what their government controlled media tells them, even if that's that 'ol Kim scored a hole-in-one every hole on his first game of a golf. We may think this is funny, but to the North Koreans, it's utter truth.

Google for nighttime satellite images of North/South Korea. It's not "light's out" time up there, they just don't <i>have</i> any.

Their propaganda compaign against the US makes the most hardcore lefty's efforts look like hogwash, and frankly, their citizens would stand in line to press the button that sends a nuke our way.

I'll do you one better:

<img src="http://www.whyy.org/tv12/franklinfacts/apr0402_4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />


<!--quoteo(post=1569580:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569580[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Our troops (and I'm including the SK troops here) > their troops. But I hope this doesn't come to war; the first one didn't turn out so great, and it'll probably be a primarily infantry-based war, which means yours truly will likely have to start learning Korean in the not-so-distant future. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The last war went down hill after we crossed the 38th and China came in their side. This time around, China's not so sure they like what the North's doin, either. There's a strong possibility we could get them to turn a blind eye on an invasion, if it came to that.


As to what I think we should do...

I think we should scare the living daylights out of them. Destroy as much infrastructure as we can with smart weapons, drop leaflets taking responsibility and denouncing Kim Jong-il, maybe even go so far as to detonate a tactical nuke above the atmosphere at night so they can see the flash. Make them understand what can happen if they screw around.

This is basically attacking the people's beliefs instead of the people themselves or their leaders, but I think if the average person thinks the whole damn world can wipe them out without breaking a sweat, they'd be less apt to support a government that pisses off the world. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

This train of thought is also probably why I shouldn't be in charge.

BlackMage

<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we should scare the living daylights out of them. Destroy as much infrastructure as we can with smart weapons,
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because that worked in iraq.
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->drop leaflets taking responsibility and denouncing Kim Jong-il,
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
people being bombed can't be aresed to read leaflets dropped on them.
"if a paper can fall here, so can a bomb"
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe even go so far as to detonate a tactical nuke above the atmosphere at night so they can see the flash.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and never see anything again. also, there's this thing called a "jetstream"
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make them understand what can happen if they screw around.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they are screwing around.
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is basically attacking the people's beliefs instead of the people themselves or their leaders,
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, it's giving them a target and a reason to press the button
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but I think if the average person thinks the whole damn world can wipe them out without breaking a sweat,
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they'll want to go out with a bang, no?
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they'd be less apt to support a government that pisses off the world. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or go down fighting
<!--quoteo(post=1569583:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This train of thought is also probably why I shouldn't be in charge.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
vote mage in 2008

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
because that worked in iraq.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

"Shock and Awe" in fact scared the hell out of the Iraqi military. Broke their will to fight. We ROLLED over them. Don't confuse what's happening now with what happened then and don't try to equate it to another situation. Iraq != North Korea, so stop playing that useless card.

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
people being bombed can't be aresed to read leaflets dropped on them.
"if a paper can fall here, so can a bomb"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You obviously don't drop them at the same time. Please read on the effectiveness of <a href="http://members.home.nl/ww2propaganda/" target="_blank">Propaganda Leaflets</a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_weapon" target="_blank">Insurgency Weapons</a>, and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda" target="_blank">Black Propaganda</a>.

The point is to make them see us in a way their own government won't allow.

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
and never see anything again. also, there's this thing called a "jetstream"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What does "above the atmosphere," mean to you? To most everyone, it means, "in space." The earth protects us from all kinds of radiation. The light show can last for almost a half hour, and the risk of retinal damange is much diminished from an airbursted weapon.

Please see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_nuclear_explosion" target="_blank">High Altitude Nuclear Explosions</a>, and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_nuclear_weapons" target="_blank">Tactical Nuclear Weapons</a>.

There could be risk to friendly satellites or manned spacecraft for a while though.

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
they are screwing around.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And they need to see what can happen if they don't stop, <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
no, it's giving them a target and a reason to press the button
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Or, it could give them pause to think of the consequences of such actions.

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
they'll want to go out with a bang, no?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
or go down fighting
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Maybe, maybe not. As long as you make it clear that we're not trying to <i>kill</i> you, but only <i>scare</i> you, the risk is dimished. You do this by demonstrating that you can hit any target you want with extreme accurracy. (Leaflet explaining that such and such important building will be destroyed at such and such time tomorrow, at the right time tomorrow, a cruise missile hits said building.)

<!--quoteo(post=1569616:date=Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 10 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]1569616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
vote mage in 2008
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

At least you've demonstrated a lack of background knowledge like any good politian. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Depot

<!--quoteo(post=1569580:date=Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Oct 10 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1569580[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Our troops (and I'm including the SK troops here) > their troops. But I hope this doesn't come to war; the first one didn't turn out so great, and it'll probably be a primarily infantry-based war, which means yours truly will likely have to start learning Korean in the not-so-distant future. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I spent 2-1/2 years over there and spoke fluent Korean ... I volunteer to tutor you. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->... just don't eat the summer kimche or drink the moklee.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

moultano

I simply can't imagine total war between any two nuclear powers. At that point its just a game of chicken, and my bet is that both sides would end up ***ked.

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1569639:date=Oct 11 2006, 02:29 AM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Oct 11 2006, 02:29 AM) [snapback]1569639[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I simply can't imagine total war between any two nuclear powers. At that point its just a game of chicken, and my bet is that both sides would end up ***ked.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

All you can really hope for is that if it gets to that point, either your first strike capability is superior, or it's a total war minus the weapons of mass destrustruction. But, then I guess it wouldn't be a total war, huh?

I hope our first strike capability is superior. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

moultano

<!--quoteo(post=1569665:date=Oct 11 2006, 01:11 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 11 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]1569665[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I hope our first strike capability is superior. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't. I don't want anyone to be even tempted to try it.

lolfighter

Do they have delivery systems? Nuclear warheads are one thing, ISBMs, IRBMs and ICBMs are another.

Scythe

Not if they sell a warhead to a terrorist group. I think that's the main concern. That and them trundling a nuke on wheels out to the DMZ and blowing a hole in it.

--Scythe--

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1569736:date=Oct 12 2006, 09:21 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Oct 12 2006, 09:21 AM) [snapback]1569736[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Do they have delivery systems? Nuclear warheads are one thing, ISBMs, IRBMs and ICBMs are another.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

They have tested rocket delivery systems which could potentially land a warhead on the west coast of north america somewhere.

Obviously this puts our friends in Russia, China, Japan, South Korea and the like in the hot seat.

moultano

<!--quoteo(post=1569778:date=Oct 12 2006, 04:12 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 12 2006, 04:12 PM) [snapback]1569778[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
They have tested rocket delivery systems which could potentially land a warhead on the west coast of north america somewhere.

Obviously this puts our friends in Russia, China, Japan, South Korea and the like in the hot seat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't realise they had that kind of range. I hope that anyone considering military action asks themself, "Is it worth losing Honolulu."

BlackMage

<!--quoteo(post=1569620:date=Oct 10 2006, 08:50 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Oct 10 2006, 08:50 PM) [snapback]1569620[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[stuff]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) High altitude nukes will knock out friendly commsats
2) Low(er) altitude nukes will cause FLKs (Funny Lookin' Kids)
3) "LOL WE GOTZ NUKEZ" will not cause every citizen of Korea to come out of their houses, look back on years of government conditioning and information control and thing "you know, maybe the USA really does want to help us
4) "As long as you make it clear that we're not trying to kill you, but only scare you" look at that line and tell me it doesn't look stupid. please.
"I'm holding this here gun to your head. I don't want to kill you, I just want you piss your pants and say you love me."
5) Fear breeds hate. Learn this well.

tl;dr: running around claiming that you can kill any and everyone at your whim is a real easy way to get people to love you. love you in the "as soon as this ###### turns around..." kind of way.

urinalcake

i did testing for defcon.
but now its REAL.

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1569946:date=Oct 14 2006, 02:34 PM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Oct 14 2006, 02:34 PM) [snapback]1569946[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
1) High altitude nukes will knock out friendly commsats
2) Low(er) altitude nukes will cause FLKs (Funny Lookin' Kids)
3) "LOL WE GOTZ NUKEZ" will not cause every citizen of Korea to come out of their houses, look back on years of government conditioning and information control and thing "you know, maybe the USA really does want to help us
4) "As long as you make it clear that we're not trying to kill you, but only scare you" look at that line and tell me it doesn't look stupid. please.
"I'm holding this here gun to your head. I don't want to kill you, I just want you piss your pants and say you love me."
5) Fear breeds hate. Learn this well.

tl;dr: running around claiming that you can kill any and everyone at your whim is a real easy way to get people to love you. love you in the "as soon as this ###### turns around..." kind of way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you're going to use a quote box, at least leave my text in there. The way it is, ([stuff]), it makes me think you consider what I said to be of so little value that you actually had to delete it all in the comment because it offended you so much. Plus it detracts from readablility.


1&2:
----------

This was covered in my previous post. I did mention the fact that friendly satellites and manned space vehicles could be in radiation danger.


3&4:
----------

Mostly these are matters of opinion. The truth is noone <i>knows</i> what would happen if such things were done. That's one thing I'm trying to get everyone to realize. It's <i>okay</i> to have different opinions on things. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm an idiot, and if you believe otherwise, I imagine that's a pretty hateful world you live in... But that's beside the point.

Strictly speaking, I don't want them to particularly like us, I just want them to not do something that I don't like. This is global politics. Hand holding whilst singing may be all fine and dandy, but holding hands with people who want what they want just as badly as you do is liable to get you swung over a cliff.

I mean, you can be the nicest guy in the world, and more than half the people you know will still talk behind your back about how big of a ###### you are and how much they wish you'd die or something equally horrible. Better off to at least have them do what you want them to do when you're in the room. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Like the teacher that everyone says is a hardass but always obeys.

As far as making it clear we're trying to scare you, I thought my example would have summed that up. The destinction is that you need to make them understand that it could have been much much worse if we had not held back.


5:
----------

If fear breads hate, do you hate the highway because of the fear you have that causes you not to cross the street when there are cars barreling by?

Do you hate your parents when they paddle you for doing something wrong, thereby making you fear that pain? I know I don't. Further, I only had to be paddled a few times, all before I was 10. I'm 21 now, and to this day I still fear, obey, and respect my parents. Could there have been other factors playing into this? Surely, but I attribute most of it to strict enforced, and <i>consistent</i> disicpline on my parents' parts.

Do you hate heights because you're afraid of them? (hate as in... you actively try to destroy heights at all costs, no, it's not a serious example <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) Or do you rather avoid heights because you fear them?

We <i>avoid</i> things we fear, because what we really fear is the consequence that comes from being around that thing. If in the course of avoiding your fear, your ego is damaged because you feel that you <i>shouldn't</i> be afraid of this thing, then you start to hate. First you hate yourself, then as your psyche starts to take on pressure, you may transfer this hate at the thing you hate itself.

I know that's a little deep, but think about it and see if it makes sense. It does for me anyway.

We're pack animals, fear of the alpha member keeps us in line. No fear, no stability.

Shockeh

Sorry rob, but on #5 I simply totally disagree with you. History has shown us, time & time again that the only successful occupations have occured either through total & utter domination of the occupied state (A situation extremely hard to maintain even in iron grip type governments, the US simply cannot as a democracy do this) or by winning the population over.

What you're proposing is similar. Unless it is 100%, totally utterly clear there is no point resisting, and there never will be, all you would create by that mentality is unrest. Hell, look at the two threatres of war that are currently underway. The 'enemy' in both hasn't got a prayer of ever 'winning' against the Allied forces, but it persists because the possibility exists. All we've done thus far through strongarm approaches is ensured the relative safety of this generation, and given the next one a whole new world of problems. The kids of Basra & Baghdad today will be tomorrow's terrorists, because their only knowledge of the West is how we destroyed their lives.

For once, instead of jumping down their throats we need to coopt North Korea, and show them that stomping around showing off their toys simply <i>doesn't worry us.</i>

Your pack animal analogy is true. Ever seen what happens as soon as the Alpha in any pack starts showing weakness, and there's more than one Beta? We need to <b>stop</b> encouraging pack mentality, not perpetuate it.

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1570144:date=Oct 16 2006, 04:40 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Oct 16 2006, 04:40 AM) [snapback]1570144[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Sorry rob, but on #5 I simply totally disagree with you. History has shown us, time & time again that the only successful occupations have occured either through total & utter domination of the occupied state (A situation extremely hard to maintain even in iron grip type governments, the US simply cannot as a democracy do this) or by winning the population over.

What you're proposing is similar. Unless it is 100%, totally utterly clear there is no point resisting, and there never will be, all you would create by that mentality is unrest. Hell, look at the two threatres of war that are currently underway. The 'enemy' in both hasn't got a prayer of ever 'winning' against the Allied forces, but it persists because the possibility exists. All we've done thus far through strongarm approaches is ensured the relative safety of this generation, and given the next one a whole new world of problems. The kids of Basra & Baghdad today will be tomorrow's terrorists, because their only knowledge of the West is how we destroyed their lives.

For once, instead of jumping down their throats we need to coopt North Korea, and show them that stomping around showing off their toys simply <i>doesn't worry us.</i>

Your pack animal analogy is true. Ever seen what happens as soon as the Alpha in any pack starts showing weakness, and there's more than one Beta? We need to <b>stop</b> encouraging pack mentality, not perpetuate it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I think my main point is this: hatred is much more likely if punishment is:

-Not swift
-Not fairly distributed
-Not consistent

If you look back at the failed occupations, I think you'll see alot of inconsistencies between who gets punished for what, when, and to what degree.

And I'm not saying we should occupy North Korea, but we should somehow make the population aware of just how potent we can be, as opposed to their own leaders. I mean, it's either that or try to work through their government.

In alot of ways, Kim's strategy for diplomacy has been pretty effective. He's been bringing people to the table pretty consistently. He's played hardball, and it's worked. What we don't like is the fact that he has the gull to do this.

It puts us in a tight spot, because if we do fly off the hinge and start flexing our muscle, we risk him doing the same, so it comes down to the question of "how much are we prepared to loose to not put up with his crap?"

If we attack his infrastructure and his population's will to follow the leader, we're asking Kim, "What are you prepared to loose to keep giving us crap?"

It's really an offensive vrs. a defensive, actionary vrs. reactionary thing. But, history tells us victory goes to the bold more often than not. /me shrugs. Take you choice.


As for discouraging pack mentality, you're no doubt correct. We would make much better progress if we could put our instincts aside. But you have to admit that droping millions of years of gut instinct on a dime, even a dime the span of the thousands of years of recorded history, isn't something done easily.

Having the fortitude to make an effort to change it by showing restraint or otherwise encouraging another way could be deadly, whereas we know there's a much better chance of victory if we step up knock in some heads. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

puzl

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If you look back at the failed occupations, I think you'll see alot of inconsistencies between who gets punished for what, when, and to what degree.
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Maybe they should impliment habeas corpus.

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1570175:date=Oct 16 2006, 10:08 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Oct 16 2006, 10:08 AM) [snapback]1570175[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Maybe they should impliment habeas corpus.
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Touche. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />